Astonished that the majority of Charlton Life seem to want Bowyer out ... fortunately it would appear that Thomas does not agree with you.
How the hell do you work that out????
Be interested to see a poll on here of those who do want Bowyer gone
But then you’re just playing to the reactionaries.
Bowyer isn't going to get sacked now, so ‘fans’ screaming for him to be sacked just create a whole heap of unecessary and unhelpful noise. Once it seeps in, its there and it gets rehashed and regenerated after every defeat or bad performance.
We've an owner thats not not going to mess around as he has made clear we need promotion in next 18 months. If Bowyer isn’t delivering that, he’ll get rid of him.
After all we’ve been through this last few years, Bowyer (you would have thought) has earned the loyalty to have a crack at correcting this. This has been a poorly put together squad and then Impacted by key injuries. If it doesn’t shown improvement signs over the next couple of months, he’ll carry the can for it. But he’s earned the right imo to have a go at working this out through Jan.
fair point Afka, but Lee isn’t learning by, and not admitting his mistakes.Are you giving a free hit for the season based on sentiment. I would dearly love for him to realise mistakes and turn it around, but I’m losing faith fast. And I’m not a knee jerk type of person. I’m a bit torn because I thought he was great as a player.
We are desperately short up front - both in terms of quality players and the actual size of our strikers.
So why on earth is Josh Davison still at Woking? He'd be a huge upgrade on Bogle. (And as someone else said, the coach should drop Bogle off in Grimsby tonight on the way home so he can continue his career there)
Davisons loan is until January, so will be interesting to see whether we extend it or not, seem to remember Gallen implied a little while ago that we might look to get him in the squad
Be interesting to see when it expires as we're in January now and Davison played for Woking today
Bowyer played a right back at left back; a left back at right mid; a centre mid at centre half who then got sent off for falling for the bait and kicking out (he's 35 for god's sake); Omar Bogle; left our most creative midfielder/s on the bench; and set us up with no creativity whatsoever.
My mood has shifted over the last month and I want to see a fresh approach, be that with or without Bowyer.
In the short term, it is a simple fix. Play a normal formation with players in the right positions. Dominate lesser teams: Amos; Matthews; Pearce; Deji; Maatsen, then a midfield of JFC; Morgan; Williams; and Maddison; Schwartz/Aneke and Washington up top. Impose our will on a team and just brief the defenders to twat the ball miles away from our final third and that will be that.
We are desperately short of positivity right now.
You and me dont usually agree, but that is bang on.
Bows is making some really baffling decisions ATM. Williams had a stormer v Wimbledon, got left out next game. Maddison superb last game, doesn't feature today. Why? If players are hitting form, keep playing them! Morgan our most creative threat today, gets subbed. His replacement Williams somehow ends up playing right back. When things aren't working out, you go back to basics. That means playing players in their correct positions.
Astonished that the majority of Charlton Life seem to want Bowyer out ... fortunately it would appear that Thomas does not agree with you.
How the hell do you work that out????
Read the comments ... it’s very clear
No it's not. You can criticise Bowyer without wanting him sacked.
I don’t want Bowyer out but boy is he stubborn. Fine playing players out of position if it works but Matthew’s at left back and Maatsen right side of midfield didn’t work last time. Add Morgan this time at left midfield and then you have neither him or Matthew’s able to go on the outside because they aren’t strong enough on their left foot. Ditto Maatsen on the right. So no width. Bogie is clearly struggling when you compare his ability to hold the ball up and play it off compared to Washington and Bogle. Can’t be bothered to say any more.
I am a little perplexed by Bowyer at the moment. It is almost like he has too many players and choices.
Somehow we are still top six. If, a few months ago you offered me a new owner and top six at the turn of the year I would have absolutely bitten your hand off. If the offer was a new owner and mid table mediocrity for a season I would have bitten your hand off.
It’s a funny season in terms of results and across all leagues the quality on offer is well down in recent seasons. Man U second in the premiership is testament to this. Nobody is pulling away in our league really so I think we will be in the mix come the end of the season.
It will be a real shame if having suffered like he has over the past few seasons, Bowyer doesn’t manage to get it right this season. I believe Thomas will give him the rest of the season but probably not beyond, particularly if our season peters out.
Fingers crossed for an improvement, a few new signings ( that don’t confuse Bowyer further) and a top six finish.
We are desperately short up front - both in terms of quality players and the actual size of our strikers.
So why on earth is Josh Davison still at Woking? He'd be a huge upgrade on Bogle. (And as someone else said, the coach should drop Bogle off in Grimsby tonight on the way home so he can continue his career there)
Davisons loan is until January, so will be interesting to see whether we extend it or not, seem to remember Gallen implied a little while ago that we might look to get him in the squad
Be interesting to see when it expires as we're in January now and Davison played for Woking today
Yeah, had assumed it would end as soon as the window opened and Transfermarkt have his loan ending on the 1st Jan
I don't know enough about football to talk about players and tactics but I think I know some unhappy employees when I see them, and that doesn't look like a happy team. What Pratley did was the stupid thing that unhappy people do.
Right, I'll start by saying that that was bad, and that I don't agree with how Bowyer's been setting up recently. I don't have an issue with playing Pratley at CB as he's a better CB than Oshilaja and we all know it, though he let us down today with some silliness. Playing Matthews at left back is odd, especially given that Purrington is a player that really doesn't let us down. You can see what Bowyer was trying to do today with going to a flat 4-4-2 to try and get some solidity, and in many ways he tried to do exactly what he did against Hull post-lockdown. He's gone with a flat four with Albie on the left. You could even argue he's put Matthews there to deal with their threat cutting in on the right, which is exactly what he did last time, except he used Oshilaja then, and to some decent effect. What didn't help is that McGeady, average as he was, was a right winger whereas Maatsen is a LB he put on the wrong flank so there was no hope of width. Similarly Bogle isn't as good as Bonne or Hemed so we were always going to struggle in attack.
That aside though, you can see where the real problems lie. We started the season with a plan, and that plan was to use Alfie's pace out wide to counter attack off the back of a solid defensive unit. We lost Alfie, which massively affected our abilities on the break and stopped our good passers like Gilbey and Forster-Caskey having anyone to aim their raking passes to. We adapted though and settled for solidity alone, which worked. We weren't electric but we didn't concede and we were winning game after game without conceding. We then lost both of our Goliath centre backs, as well as our midfield creator in Shinnie and that's killed us completely. We now lack the pace and the solidity to play the way we'd hoped to, so Bowyer has tried to fall back on his tried and tested methods, but we didn't build a squad to suit those systems so we're not as good at it anymore. We don't have the abilities of Cullen, Bielik, Aribo and Gallagher anymore. Our midfielders are much slower and that causes us to lack any coherence between attack and defence. Add to that the fact that instead of having Lyle Taylor we have Omar Bogle and you can see where the true issues are. We desperately, desperately need pace, and we need Inniss and Famewo back. I do agree that Bowyer's attempts to pivot from our strategy have gone a bit Twilight Zone, but all this talk of sacking the manager is just bonkers when you actually think about what we're dealing with. How many other teams wouldn't struggle losing the three players absolutely vital to their way of playing long term, and then a boat-load on top of that? Add to that the wage cap and our late takeover, meaning we haven't got much depth in the squad in line with our change in style and I think any team would struggle. We're in a squad transition; remnants of one way of playing are alongside new players and when you have to mix them together in too-large quantities problems show.
Despite all that, this was our first loss in 5 games. Granted we've only won 1 in that period (though we should bear in mind there were two late equalisers in there to make things look worse), but we're still 6th. Still on for the Play-Offs despite the ridiculous amount of obstacles that have been put in the clubs way leading up to and during this season. Yet there's people who want the manager out because we've lost to probably the best team in the league and drew with Swindon. I get that people don't like the performances, but that's all part of the larger issues we've had. The entitlement since Sandgaard came in is astonishing. It will take time for us to to rebuild as a club, we might not go up this season and it might not always look pretty, but the knives coming out for Bowyer off a few dodgy decisions and the fact we're not pissing a league that we apparently 'deserve' to get promoted from is uncomfortable. Hopefully in January Schwarz can hit the ground running and we can get some pace to take the pressure off the defence and things suddenly won't look so bad. Bowyer can definitely help by making some more logical decisions but playing Maatsen and LB and our worst CB isn't going to fix the combination of injuries and the legacy of bad club management that Lee and the club have to deal with every step of the way. Chill. It'll be ok.
You make some good points @Garrymanilow but I just don’t think you can justify the starting back four line up. I wondered if the Matthews decision was to stop a winger cutting inside too, but we saw last week that we lose so much from him being there for very little gain. If Matthews had two feet, you’d have a point, but he’s totally right footed, so reducing the threat of the winger cutting inside would just be cancelled out by him being able to go down the outside. Matthews’ lack of left foot also meant that any break down the left is immediately nullified by him having to check back and play square or backwards. Every single time. I said earlier that I feel sorry for Matthews, because he’s a better player than this, but he should never play at left back.
I hope he stays until the end of the season and Thomas Sandgaard and whoever he turns to in football matters assesses; did Lee get the best out of the squad at his disposal ?
But when I can't understand his tactics. When it seems the players can't understand his tactics and also the members on CL who have an understanding of various football formations and what you should expect, then Lee Bowyer is losing respect.
Early in the second half, Matthews and Maatsen started going past defenders as they were back on their natural side.
It was so obvious, that my dear old Mum who I couldn't see today on her Birthday, would have spotted the faux Pas.
Astonished that the majority of Charlton Life seem to want Bowyer out ... fortunately it would appear that Thomas does not agree with you.
Respect your opinion, but to make that comment surely requires an explanation why you think it?. What has bowyer done so well not to judged on recent decisions and results. Completely forgetting sentiment in your answer.
We’re in 6th place.
At the moment, would you currently say 6th looking up or 6th looking behind our backs? Based on current decisions and form.?
Obviously on current form it’s not looking good (16th in form table for both last 5 and 10 games). But isn’t it showing something that we’re 16th in those form tables and still managed to hang on to a play off position. We’re above Hull in one of those form tables yet they’ve hung on to an automatic finish.
This league is about consistency, it has been for all the years we’ve been here before. We’re on poor form, I don’t believe that will last much longer.
I’ll judge Bowyer on the full season and I believe he should stay as manager for its entirety.
Ok fair point, agree with a lot of what you say. But also slightly deflecting away from the fact a lot of our problems are self inflicted mainly from bowyer.for the moment he probably deserves to cling on and turn it around, but he also cannot be exempt from criticism.
We are desperately short up front - both in terms of quality players and the actual size of our strikers.
So why on earth is Josh Davison still at Woking? He'd be a huge upgrade on Bogle. (And as someone else said, the coach should drop Bogle off in Grimsby tonight on the way home so he can continue his career there)
Davisons loan is until January, so will be interesting to see whether we extend it or not, seem to remember Gallen implied a little while ago that we might look to get him in the squad
Be interesting to see when it expires as we're in January now and Davison played for Woking today
Yeah, had assumed it would end as soon as the window opened and Transfermarkt have his loan ending on the 1st Jan
Non league loans can be broken anytime, we could have recalled him if we wanted to
I don't want Bowyer sacked but I do want him to play players in their natural positions. Playing a left back at right half and a right back at left back, and a centre midfield at centre back will produce a disjointed team. It also significantly undermines the confidence of the specialist players in those positions. Having Prately at centre back also takes him out of the midfield, weakening the midfield. It also likely to result in injury for older players like Smith. Bogle at the front without pace to support him was never going to work. Football is not rocket science. Play players in their natural positions and keep it simple.
Astonished that the majority of Charlton Life seem to want Bowyer out ... fortunately it would appear that Thomas does not agree with you.
How the hell do you work that out????
I think it should be the majority on this thread seem to want him out. I generally don't post and just read, but I have to say getting Bowyer out in my opinion is not the answer. We've been on a bit of a bad run but we are still in the Top 6. I trust Bowyer will get it right and I think he deserves the time to get it right. Painting with a broad brush, including the poor run of games we currently find ourselves in I still think the positives outweigh the negatives with Bowyer and I for one think getting rid now is totally the wrong decision.
Right, I'll start by saying that that was bad, and that I don't agree with how Bowyer's been setting up recently. I don't have an issue with playing Pratley at CB as he's a better CB than Oshilaja and we all know it, though he let us down today with some silliness. Playing Matthews at left back is odd, especially given that Purrington is a player that really doesn't let us down. You can see what Bowyer was trying to do today with going to a flat 4-4-2 to try and get some solidity, and in many ways he tried to do exactly what he did against Hull post-lockdown. He's gone with a flat four with Albie on the left. You could even argue he's put Matthews there to deal with their threat cutting in on the right, which is exactly what he did last time, except he used Oshilaja then, and to some decent effect. What didn't help is that McGeady, average as he was, was a right winger whereas Maatsen is a LB he put on the wrong flank so there was no hope of width. Similarly Bogle isn't as good as Bonne or Hemed so we were always going to struggle in attack.
That aside though, you can see where the real problems lie. We started the season with a plan, and that plan was to use Alfie's pace out wide to counter attack off the back of a solid defensive unit. We lost Alfie, which massively affected our abilities on the break and stopped our good passers like Gilbey and Forster-Caskey having anyone to aim their raking passes to. We adapted though and settled for solidity alone, which worked. We weren't electric but we didn't concede and we were winning game after game without conceding. We then lost both of our Goliath centre backs, as well as our midfield creator in Shinnie and that's killed us completely. We now lack the pace and the solidity to play the way we'd hoped to, so Bowyer has tried to fall back on his tried and tested methods, but we didn't build a squad to suit those systems so we're not as good at it anymore. We don't have the abilities of Cullen, Bielik, Aribo and Gallagher anymore. Our midfielders are much slower and that causes us to lack any coherence between attack and defence. Add to that the fact that instead of having Lyle Taylor we have Omar Bogle and you can see where the true issues are. We desperately, desperately need pace, and we need Inniss and Famewo back. I do agree that Bowyer's attempts to pivot from our strategy have gone a bit Twilight Zone, but all this talk of sacking the manager is just bonkers when you actually think about what we're dealing with. How many other teams wouldn't struggle losing the three players absolutely vital to their way of playing long term, and then a boat-load on top of that? Add to that the wage cap and our late takeover, meaning we haven't got much depth in the squad in line with our change in style and I think any team would struggle. We're in a squad transition; remnants of one way of playing are alongside new players and when you have to mix them together in too-large quantities problems show.
Despite all that, this was our first loss in 5 games. Granted we've only won 1 in that period (though we should bear in mind there were two late equalisers in there to make things look worse), but we're still 6th. Still on for the Play-Offs despite the ridiculous amount of obstacles that have been put in the clubs way leading up to and during this season. Yet there's people who want the manager out because we've lost to probably the best team in the league and drew with Swindon. I get that people don't like the performances, but that's all part of the larger issues we've had. The entitlement since Sandgaard came in is astonishing. It will take time for us to to rebuild as a club, we might not go up this season and it might not always look pretty, but the knives coming out for Bowyer off a few dodgy decisions and the fact we're not pissing a league that we apparently 'deserve' to get promoted from is uncomfortable. Hopefully in January Schwarz can hit the ground running and we can get some pace to take the pressure off the defence and things suddenly won't look so bad. Bowyer can definitely help by making some more logical decisions but playing Maatsen and LB and our worst CB isn't going to fix the combination of injuries and the legacy of bad club management that Lee and the club have to deal with every step of the way. Chill. It'll be ok.
You make some good points @Garrymanilow but I just don’t think you can justify the starting back four line up. I wondered if the Matthews decision was to stop a winger cutting inside too, but we saw last week that we lose so much from him being there for very little gain. If Matthews had two feet, you’d have a point, but he’s totally right footed, so reducing the threat of the winger cutting inside would just be cancelled out by him being able to go down the outside. Matthews’ lack of left foot also meant that any break down the left is immediately nullified by him having to check back and play square or backwards. Every single time. I said earlier that I feel sorry for Matthews, because he’s a better player than this, but he should never play at left back.
I agree, I think he got it wrong today. I think you'll probably struggle to find a bigger supporter of Purrington on here than me, I think that he might not be a genius but he's reliable. For me, he's exactly the kind of player you want to add to your defence when you need to tighten things up and get things settled. I'm not a big fan of playing defenders to match opposition players, I'd rather just see a settled unit. I think Bowyer is reeling from not having Gunter-Inniss-Famewo-Maatsen every game and he's trying some odd experiments in its absence. He clearly shifts Maatsen up so there's some pace in midfield, so hopefully if we can sign some pace there he will revert Maatsen back to his usual spot. In the meantime I hope he just puts Purrington back in, though given the abuse Ben normally gets when he plays I doubt that will solve a lot of people's problems with our line-up.
We are desperately short up front - both in terms of quality players and the actual size of our strikers.
So why on earth is Josh Davison still at Woking? He'd be a huge upgrade on Bogle. (And as someone else said, the coach should drop Bogle off in Grimsby tonight on the way home so he can continue his career there)
Davisons loan is until January, so will be interesting to see whether we extend it or not, seem to remember Gallen implied a little while ago that we might look to get him in the squad
Be interesting to see when it expires as we're in January now and Davison played for Woking today
Yeah, had assumed it would end as soon as the window opened and Transfermarkt have his loan ending on the 1st Jan
Non league loans can be broken anytime, we could have recalled him if we wanted to
I know that, but that's irrelevant now it's January and his loan is due to expire anytime now, the question is whether we extend it or not
Astonished that the majority of Charlton Life seem to want Bowyer out ... fortunately it would appear that Thomas does not agree with you.
I think the majority of Charlton Life want Bowyer to play players in the correct positions.
It’s amazing how all the Curbs revisionists completely forget the days he played right backs at left back, wide midfielders on the wrong wings, centre defenders as centre forwards, strikers out wide, four narrow central midfielders across the midfield with no width.
Yeah, in the Prem when we were underdogs and trying to nick results from teams with far superior resources. And he liked to sign a player who was capable of playing 2 positions well.
There was the Powell/Konchesky combo for a while and Kish as midfield destroyer. The 3 x CMs but together with a wide midfielder also. And sometimes he'd pick an 'inverted' winger or get him to swap sides mid-match.
But to a greater or lesser degree these tactics were effective and garnered sufficient points to ensure our stay in the Prem. But that wasn't so much Curbs way of thinking beforehand in the 2nd tier during the 90s and our promotion sides .... we had proper defenders, midfielders, strikers playing usually in their own positions.
Last season, LB did his best through a huge injury crisis.
This season, he is without some good defenders but he does have replacements (Oshilaja, Barker) who he hasn't used. The smart move today after Watson was injured, was Oshilaja on and Pratley into holding midfield, where he has probably played about 400 games. But instead we got Gilbey and a positional change for JFC.
The team generally lacks creativity but he chooses to keep Maddison under wraps. I can't fathom it; Maddison is without doubt, one of the most creative players in the whole division and 100% proven at this level. If you are worried about being a bit lightweight with Maddison in the team, then lose Bogle and play MM in a free role. You can still keep a solid midfield behind Washington and Maddison.
Without the possibility of any Chuks' goals today, Maddison HAD to play. I bet Hull couldn't believe their luck (after three straight defeats) seeing Bogle and Washington up front.
PS: I don't think bringing Curbishley in to help would actually help because I get the impression LB might either be too stubborn to listen or simply just wouldn't accept it.
PPS: We are hearing that we need some young energetic players to go with the experienced ones. How about Davison, Barker, Lapslie and Vennings?
For some perspective, we have played 65 league games over this season and last. We have won 21 of those. 7 of those came before Christmas of the 2019/20 season, our form then collapsed, and we only won 5 going forward.
My concern is that the same is happening this season, where we start the season well before losing form drastically
The result was coming as soon as the team was announced. We don’t know our best 11, we don’t play players in their natural positions, we are a shambles tactically. We have zero attacking threat in our lineups and this has been going on for weeks now, don’t be fooled by the A.F.C. Wimbledon result. Watching this team is a chore.
Also the commentary team are so biased it’s crazy.
I wish Bowyer would come out and be honest and perhaps take some blame. He won’t though.
Bowyer played a right back at left back; a left back at right mid; a centre mid at centre half who then got sent off for falling for the bait and kicking out (he's 35 for god's sake); Omar Bogle; left our most creative midfielder/s on the bench; and set us up with no creativity whatsoever.
My mood has shifted over the last month and I want to see a fresh approach, be that with or without Bowyer.
In the short term, it is a simple fix. Play a normal formation with players in the right positions. Dominate lesser teams: Amos; Matthews; Pearce; Deji; Maatsen, then a midfield of JFC; Morgan; Williams; and Maddison; Schwartz/Aneke and Washington up top. Impose our will on a team and just brief the defenders to twat the ball miles away from our final third and that will be that.
Only caveat being I want us to keep Bowyer so hopefully he will learn from today..if not then will probably change view.
Surely he'll self reflect. Really can't understand the bizarre playing players massively out of position when it's so unnecessary and leaving 2 of our best game changing players like Williams and Masdison out.
Big few weeks ahead and hopefully Bowyer will turn it around.
Comments
If players are hitting form, keep playing them!
Morgan our most creative threat today, gets subbed.
His replacement Williams somehow ends up playing right back.
When things aren't working out, you go back to basics. That means playing players in their correct positions.
It’s a funny season in terms of results and across all leagues the quality on offer is well down in recent seasons. Man U second in the premiership is testament to this. Nobody is pulling away in our league really so I think we will be in the mix come the end of the season.
Can't be blamed for not coming on after the red card, but criminal that he didn't start.
I hope he stays until the end of the season and Thomas Sandgaard and whoever he turns to in football matters assesses; did Lee get the best out of the squad at his disposal ?
But when I can't understand his tactics.
When it seems the players can't understand his tactics and also the members on CL who have an understanding of various football formations and what you should expect, then Lee Bowyer is losing respect.
Early in the second half, Matthews and Maatsen started going past defenders as they were back on their natural side.
It was so obvious, that my dear old Mum who I couldn't see today on her Birthday, would have spotted the faux Pas.
Baffled from the Surrey hills.
What an utter load of old tosh.
And he liked to sign a player who was capable of playing 2 positions well.
There was the Powell/Konchesky combo for a while and Kish as midfield destroyer. The 3 x CMs but together with a wide midfielder also.
And sometimes he'd pick an 'inverted' winger or get him to swap sides mid-match.
But to a greater or lesser degree these tactics were effective and garnered sufficient points to ensure our stay in the Prem.
But that wasn't so much Curbs way of thinking beforehand in the 2nd tier during the 90s and our promotion sides .... we had proper defenders, midfielders, strikers playing usually in their own positions.
This season, he is without some good defenders but he does have replacements (Oshilaja, Barker) who he hasn't used. The smart move today after Watson was injured, was Oshilaja on and Pratley into holding midfield, where he has probably played about 400 games. But instead we got Gilbey and a positional change for JFC.
The team generally lacks creativity but he chooses to keep Maddison under wraps. I can't fathom it; Maddison is without doubt, one of the most creative players in the whole division and 100% proven at this level. If you are worried about being a bit lightweight with Maddison in the team, then lose Bogle and play MM in a free role. You can still keep a solid midfield behind Washington and Maddison.
Without the possibility of any Chuks' goals today, Maddison HAD to play. I bet Hull couldn't believe their luck (after three straight defeats) seeing Bogle and Washington up front.
PS: I don't think bringing Curbishley in to help would actually help because I get the impression LB might either be too stubborn to listen or simply just wouldn't accept it.
PPS: We are hearing that we need some young energetic players to go with the experienced ones. How about Davison, Barker, Lapslie and Vennings?
My concern is that the same is happening this season, where we start the season well before losing form drastically
The result was coming as soon as the team was announced. We don’t know our best 11, we don’t play players in their natural positions, we are a shambles tactically. We have zero attacking threat in our lineups and this has been going on for weeks now, don’t be fooled by the A.F.C. Wimbledon result.
Watching this team is a chore.
Only caveat being I want us to keep Bowyer so hopefully he will learn from today..if not then will probably change view.
Surely he'll self reflect. Really can't understand the bizarre playing players massively out of position when it's so unnecessary and leaving 2 of our best game changing players like Williams and Masdison out.
Big few weeks ahead and hopefully Bowyer will turn it around.