The talk of Small not signing a longer contract because of lack of game time is a strange one, and sounds like there will only be one winner in this contest, and it ain't Small. Jones comes across as someone who knows what he wants, and has offered Small the chance of being part of the plan, which he seems reluctant to accept, and clearly Jones prefers Edwards as first choice. So, it could well see Small moving on if he won't commit, we can't have the tail wagging the dog here, game time is not a given for anyone, much as I love Small and the way he plays,...either sign up or ship out...
Being a pessimist I wonder if Small could be sold before the window
having been our best player for most of Jones’ tenure , it seems odd that he’s not playing . I suspect he’s said he won’t sign the longer deal and that he will be sold if a good offer comes in .
Or jones decided to pick the better defender to tighten things up at the back away from home.
its very much a squad game these days and jones likes to shuffle the pack.
small will still get plenty of game time this season.
Small was one of the few bright points of last season. Hasn’t signed a new deal and if he isn’t getting plenty of game time probably won’t. Awkward for Jones and the club because I think Small is worth money and I suspect we’re going to miss out on that.
I think it's more complex for Small than that and if Edwards becomes undroppable then Small is in a bit of a pickle. He's worth money if he continues his rehabilitation of his reputation. We signed him for free on a 6 month deal because that's how low his stock was. He got a bad reputation at Everton, played 4 games for Port Vale and wasn't wanted, did well in his half season at St Mirren before having a disaster the following one and then did well for us after having his contract cancelled by Saints. He's played 14 games for us, he needs to do a lot more before teams start properly looking at him as a player with potential again. If he has half a good season for us and then gets dropped for another player because he won't sign a new deal then he's not going to have a lot of interested suitors because it sounds like more of the same again with him. I do think he'll play a lot this season, and I think that if Edwards hadn't been the best player on the pitch yesterday we would have seen Small come on and press very high like Tennai did, we just flipped it round because Edwards couldn't be taken off, but the more we opt for Edwards over Small and the more he hesitates about committing the fewer his choices will be in July when he's a free player.
I’m not convinced Small is as automatic a pick for home games as some are believing. I think he starts midweek and Edwards gets the shirt against Orient.
There’s already an opinion floating around as fact that he’s better as an attack minded player than Edwards. Edwards got 9 assists and 4 goals himself last season - Small got one goal (that weird one at Bolton) and one assist where he squared the ball off to May at Cheltenham. Small played less games obviously but it doesn’t scream potent attacking wing back does it?
Surely we’re not attaching ourselves to a quite good player just because they shone in an overall crap team around them again?
I think at this point it’s very much trust in Nathan Jones. Watching that yesterday, he knows exactly what he’s doing. Haven’t said that about a manager in ages.
I don't know when it is that people started becoming obsessed with a '10' but we don't play with one. The creativity will come in the high press, catching teams with our team still high up on the pitch and playing that pass out wide to an advancing wingback or forcing a mistake from defenders who are being harried to death by lunatics. Jones used to use Shinnie to do a lot of the pass before the pass work that led to goals and he was a deeper midfielder. In Coventry, Docherty and Berry we've got players who are good enough on the ball to play the right sort of passes, it's all about the work they put in to create those opportunities. If you'd like what traditionally would be called a creative 10 then cast your mind back to Fraser, Jack Payne, Fiorini, Alex Gilbey and other soft lads we've had who couldn't press an olive, then weep.
Problem is we don’t have the ability to change things up. Change personnel definitely but there will be games, particularly at The Valley when teams do to us what we did to Wigan yesterday. What then ? Jones I think has a plan and it’s his plan and if you don’t like it then jog on. Just my opinion but being one dimensional is short sighted.
I think his style is non-negotiable in terms of the pressing and effort required but the shape is less rigid. He'd much rather play a 442 diamond I reckon but he was burned by trying that last season. We saw with LuaLua that he likes to bring on players with pace and play them in asymmetrical positions if we need to change things and that's what Campbell and Dixon will generally be for. We've also got the ability to ask very different questions of our wingbacks as we saw with Tennai yesterday, he basically played as a right winger to throw off Wigan and it led to our goal. Berry is also a different option in the middle and we've already seen that we're using Docherty to press on past the striker at the moment instead of asking Karoy to do his harrying very high all the time. I think there's lots to change within the current structure, a creative central midfielder would be nice as well if we can shift Edun but we're not stuck in our one way of approaching teams with what we have now
If you look at Jones managerial history. He would often change starting lineups and even occasionally formations. If you ask Southampton fans, they would tell you he tinkered too much and the lack of consistency hurt them. Don’t be surprised if at various times, the likes of Small, Berry and Kanu are starting depending on who is in form in training, the opposition, home vs away etc
Being a pessimist I wonder if Small could be sold before the window
having been our best player for most of Jones’ tenure , it seems odd that he’s not playing . I suspect he’s said he won’t sign the longer deal and that he will be sold if a good offer comes in .
Or jones decided to pick the better defender to tighten things up at the back away from home.
its very much a squad game these days and jones likes to shuffle the pack.
small will still get plenty of game time this season.
Small was one of the few bright points of last season. Hasn’t signed a new deal and if he isn’t getting plenty of game time probably won’t. Awkward for Jones and the club because I think Small is worth money and I suspect we’re going to miss out on that.
I think it's more complex for Small than that and if Edwards becomes undroppable then Small is in a bit of a pickle. He's worth money if he continues his rehabilitation of his reputation. We signed him for free on a 6 month deal because that's how low his stock was. He got a bad reputation at Everton, played 4 games for Port Vale and wasn't wanted, did well in his half season at St Mirren before having a disaster the following one and then did well for us after having his contract cancelled by Saints. He's played 14 games for us, he needs to do a lot more before teams start properly looking at him as a player with potential again. If he has half a good season for us and then gets dropped for another player because he won't sign a new deal then he's not going to have a lot of interested suitors because it sounds like more of the same again with him. I do think he'll play a lot this season, and I think that if Edwards hadn't been the best player on the pitch yesterday we would have seen Small come on and press very high like Tennai did, we just flipped it round because Edwards couldn't be taken off, but the more we opt for Edwards over Small and the more he hesitates about committing the fewer his choices will be in July when he's a free player.
Pretty sure he didn’t fail at Everton. Ancelotti tried to sign him for Real Madrid. He walked away from Everton despite a massive contract offer, according to the Liverpool Echo where they interviewed David Unsworth. Southampton just didn’t work out while Port Vale tried him up front. I think we are reading too much into the contract situation, and NJ just prefers Edwards currently. It will all come out in the wash I guess. I’d hate him to leave right now.
Don't think Small is going anywhere, it's just about match ups. Edwards is better defensively which is important away from home to a team who have traditionally been great down the flanks. Small appears to be better going forward than Edwards so we'll see him for games where we're more on the front foot.
Exactly my thoughts. Despite Edwards playing well yesterday I wouldn't be surprised at all if Small starts against Orient on Saturday.
I’m not convinced Small is as automatic a pick for home games as some are believing. I think he starts midweek and Edwards gets the shirt against Orient.
There’s already an opinion floating around as fact that he’s better as an attack minded player than Edwards. Edwards got 9 assists and 4 goals himself last season - Small got one goal (that weird one at Bolton) and one assist where he squared the ball off to May at Cheltenham. Small played less games obviously but it doesn’t scream potent attacking wing back does it?
Surely we’re not attaching ourselves to a quite good player just because they shone in an overall crap team around them again?
I’m delighted Edwards did so well yesterday but I think looking at Scottish Championship stats is probably pointless . Even 7/10 Ben played in the SPL
Don't think Small is going anywhere, it's just about match ups. Edwards is better defensively which is important away from home to a team who have traditionally been great down the flanks. Small appears to be better going forward than Edwards so we'll see him for games where we're more on the front foot.
Exactly my thoughts. Despite Edwards playing well yesterday I wouldn't be surprised at all if Small starts against Orient on Saturday.
Edwards will not be dropped after yesterday.
I didn't say I think it will happen, should happen, or expect it to. I just don't think people should be surprised if it does.
I’m not convinced Small is as automatic a pick for home games as some are believing. I think he starts midweek and Edwards gets the shirt against Orient.
There’s already an opinion floating around as fact that he’s better as an attack minded player than Edwards. Edwards got 9 assists and 4 goals himself last season - Small got one goal (that weird one at Bolton) and one assist where he squared the ball off to May at Cheltenham. Small played less games obviously but it doesn’t scream potent attacking wing back does it?
Surely we’re not attaching ourselves to a quite good player just because they shone in an overall crap team around them again?
I’m delighted Edwards did so well yesterday but I think looking at Scottish Championship stats is probably pointless . Even 7/10 Ben played in the SPL
Take your point that he’s in a different league now but disagree that the league he came from is an indicator of how good, or not, he is.
Jamie Vardy came from non-league & Djimi Traore is a Champions League winner.
Being a pessimist I wonder if Small could be sold before the window
having been our best player for most of Jones’ tenure , it seems odd that he’s not playing . I suspect he’s said he won’t sign the longer deal and that he will be sold if a good offer comes in .
Or jones decided to pick the better defender to tighten things up at the back away from home.
its very much a squad game these days and jones likes to shuffle the pack.
small will still get plenty of game time this season.
Small was one of the few bright points of last season. Hasn’t signed a new deal and if he isn’t getting plenty of game time probably won’t. Awkward for Jones and the club because I think Small is worth money and I suspect we’re going to miss out on that.
I think it's more complex for Small than that and if Edwards becomes undroppable then Small is in a bit of a pickle. He's worth money if he continues his rehabilitation of his reputation. We signed him for free on a 6 month deal because that's how low his stock was. He got a bad reputation at Everton, played 4 games for Port Vale and wasn't wanted, did well in his half season at St Mirren before having a disaster the following one and then did well for us after having his contract cancelled by Saints. He's played 14 games for us, he needs to do a lot more before teams start properly looking at him as a player with potential again. If he has half a good season for us and then gets dropped for another player because he won't sign a new deal then he's not going to have a lot of interested suitors because it sounds like more of the same again with him. I do think he'll play a lot this season, and I think that if Edwards hadn't been the best player on the pitch yesterday we would have seen Small come on and press very high like Tennai did, we just flipped it round because Edwards couldn't be taken off, but the more we opt for Edwards over Small and the more he hesitates about committing the fewer his choices will be in July when he's a free player.
Pretty sure he didn’t fail at Everton. Ancelotti tried to sign him for Real Madrid. He walked away from Everton despite a massive contract offer, according to the Liverpool Echo where they interviewed David Unsworth. Southampton just didn’t work out while Port Vale tried him up front. I think we are reading too much into the contract situation, and NJ just prefers Edwards currently. It will all come out in the wash I guess. I’d hate him to leave right now.
I didn't say he failed. He did get a reputation though for valuing himself a little too highly for a player of his age and while Everton were disappointed to lose him they weren't exactly fond of him by the time he left. They weren't all that surprised when his attitude didn't serve him well at Saints either.
Don't think Small is going anywhere, it's just about match ups. Edwards is better defensively which is important away from home to a team who have traditionally been great down the flanks. Small appears to be better going forward than Edwards so we'll see him for games where we're more on the front foot.
Exactly my thoughts. Despite Edwards playing well yesterday I wouldn't be surprised at all if Small starts against Orient on Saturday.
Edwards will not be dropped after yesterday.
Dropped no. Rotated possibly. I obviously don’t want us to lose but cups are just a distraction as far as I’m concerned and if rotating Small in for Edwards to give him game time then I’m more than happy to see that.
It's nice that we're gushing about how defensively solid our wide player is, but we'll need more than that quite often. Small definitely not just a bench player in this league. There will probably be times both play tbh
I’m not convinced Small is as automatic a pick for home games as some are believing. I think he starts midweek and Edwards gets the shirt against Orient.
There’s already an opinion floating around as fact that he’s better as an attack minded player than Edwards. Edwards got 9 assists and 4 goals himself last season - Small got one goal (that weird one at Bolton) and one assist where he squared the ball off to May at Cheltenham. Small played less games obviously but it doesn’t scream potent attacking wing back does it?
Surely we’re not attaching ourselves to a quite good player just because they shone in an overall crap team around them again?
I’m delighted Edwards did so well yesterday but I think looking at Scottish Championship stats is probably pointless . Even 7/10 Ben played in the SPL
Take your point that he’s in a different league now but disagree that the league he came from is an indicator of how good, or not, he is.
Jamie Vardy came from non-league & Djimi Traore is a Champions League winner.
It doesn’t mean he’s not good - just means that it doesn’t mean he’s going to replicate good stats .
After years of having a squad not fit for purpose, of having multiple injuries resulting in experienced and/or players not good enough stepping in, are we now complaining we’ve got a player capable of starting who happened to be on the bench for our first game? Blimey
After years of having a squad not fit for purpose, of having multiple injuries resulting in experienced and/or players not good enough stepping in, are we now complaining we’ve got a player capable of starting who happened to be on the bench for our first game? Blimey
After years of having a squad not fit for purpose, of having multiple injuries resulting in experienced and/or players not good enough stepping in, are we now complaining we’ve got a player capable of starting who happened to be on the bench for our first game? Blimey
I can't see Small signing the contract and Edwards was brought in to deal with that inevitability. Thierry Small was head and shoulders our best player in the latter half of last season and I think his trial and subsequent signing was good for both Charlton and the player but if he secures a move to a club in the championship or higher then good luck to him, as long as Charlton get a decent fee, which would only be possible in this window, then I think the club would to take it.
It's nice that we're gushing about how defensively solid our wide player is, but we'll need more than that quite often. Small definitely not just a bench player in this league. There will probably be times both play tbh
This. 5 defenders and 3 defensive minded midfielders can’t be the way to promotion .
It's nice that we're gushing about how defensively solid our wide player is, but we'll need more than that quite often. Small definitely not just a bench player in this league. There will probably be times both play tbh
This. 5 defenders and 3 defensive minded midfielders can’t be the way to promotion .
You do realize that the 5 defenders include full backs who can hold their position in an away match, becomes wing backs when playing at home because it would be bizarre if in League 1 you had 8 defensive players. Also no way would you play 3 defensive midfielders.
It's nice that we're gushing about how defensively solid our wide player is, but we'll need more than that quite often. Small definitely not just a bench player in this league. There will probably be times both play tbh
This. 5 defenders and 3 defensive minded midfielders can’t be the way to promotion .
It's not. But I strongly doubt its really going to the plan for the whole season anyway. Jones likes to mix and match and rotate players, away to Wigan then strangling the game and taking a late goal is valid as they are a strong team and have home advantage.
But at other times, particularly at home there will be more emphasis on being more front-footed and attack minded.
It's nice that we're gushing about how defensively solid our wide player is, but we'll need more than that quite often. Small definitely not just a bench player in this league. There will probably be times both play tbh
This. 5 defenders and 3 defensive minded midfielders can’t be the way to promotion .
You do realize that the 5 defenders include full backs who can hold their position in an away match becomes wing backs when playing at home because it would be bizarre if in League 1 you had 8 defensive players. Also no way would you play 3 defensive midfielders.
You surely can't believe that in home matches ?
Don’t know - we’ll see what happens . I remain convinced that you can play 3 attacking players away from home - if you played 433, you’d have 3 forwards of some description . I didn’t say 3 defensive midfielders but none of the midfielders that started on Saturday have any great scoring / creative pedigree . I think we have to eventually carry more threat although I am completely understanding that there are games where you have to tough it out - we haven’t had that in our locker for some time so I’m delighted we managed the win on Saturday .
I saw wed been linked with Marosi on Twitter - I know he was playing in a EFL representative game last Friday which was for players who are unattached but I’d be very surprised if we went for him. Never really filled me with confidence and had a run/in with our fans too. id like to think we could do better
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Jones comes across as someone who knows what he wants, and has offered Small the chance of being part of the plan, which he seems reluctant to accept, and clearly Jones prefers Edwards as first choice.
So, it could well see Small moving on if he won't commit, we can't have the tail wagging the dog here, game time is not a given for anyone, much as I love Small and the way he plays,...either sign up or ship out...
There’s already an opinion floating around as fact that he’s better as an attack minded player than Edwards. Edwards got 9 assists and 4 goals himself last season - Small got one goal (that weird one at Bolton) and one assist where he squared the ball off to May at Cheltenham. Small played less games obviously but it doesn’t scream potent attacking wing back does it?
Surely we’re not attaching ourselves to a quite good player just because they shone in an overall crap team around them again?
Watching that yesterday, he knows exactly what he’s doing. Haven’t said that about a manager in ages.
He walked away from Everton despite a massive contract offer, according to the Liverpool Echo where they interviewed David Unsworth.
Southampton just didn’t work out while Port Vale tried him up front.
I think we are reading too much into the contract situation, and NJ just prefers Edwards currently.
It will all come out in the wash I guess.
I’d hate him to leave right now.
Jamie Vardy came from non-league & Djimi Traore is a Champions League winner.
You do realize that the 5 defenders include full backs who can hold their position in an away match, becomes wing backs when playing at home because it would be bizarre if in League 1 you had 8 defensive players.
Also no way would you play 3 defensive midfielders.
You surely can't believe that in home matches ?
But at other times, particularly at home there will be more emphasis on being more front-footed and attack minded.
id like to think we could do better