I am not against appointing him but I would like us to give Fleming a chance first. A two defeats (and some wins) or we bring somebody in chance over February. I think that is the common sense approach. I know some people don't share it but if Jones came in and failed that would fcuk us up. Somebody like him should be the lasp gasp option.
And if we give Fleming a chance but he doesn't win any games, whoever we then get in has an even more difficult job and less time to rectify it in. So... no. Fleming is caretaker and only the caretaker, his only priority right now is to try and stop the rot and provide the basics of continuity. He's spent a career as assistant to the main coach, he's good at it, he seems quite content.
He is a decent guy from what I've seen but nowhere near the full time job.
But what makes you so sure Jones will? I am not having a Fleming love in but I was happy with Saturday and what if he gets a result next week? Even if it is short term, do we throw that away for something that may go right or wrong. If it doesn't work with Fleming we still have time. Maybe one or two games less but we have an extra life as it were.
Because Jones is someone who has proven success at this level as a Head coach. Fleming is not. Its a gamble either way and I am not 100% sold on Jones but he's by every metric a safer gamble than Fleming.
Getting someone (anyone really) in over Fleming may go right or wrong yes. But sticking with Fleming may also go right or wrong and hard to justify as anything other than kicking the can down the road.
If we were in midtable doldrums going nowhere then Fleming would get longer. We're not, so he doesn't. Harsh on him maybe but that's the game.
Jones is a proven success and a proven failure. People seem to forget that last bit. My argument with Fleming is that we can correct it within a few games if it isn't having instant results.
Don't get the logic behind that thinking.
Should we be giving Fleming the job because we can "correct it within a few games" or should we go for the person who can best deliver, in the regime's opinion, short and long term success?
I think the latter. We can as easily, though not as cheaply, sack Jones or whoever as sack Fleming. Waiting a few games isn't an option for us at the moment IMHO.
PS I like what I've seen of Fleming and can see why he's had a long career as an assistant as he would be the calm one in a crises and could smooth over problems and give individual players a lift. Wouldn't be at all unhappy if he stayed by the new manager's choice.
I am not saying give him the job. If he provides an instant lift, I am saying go with it. If it proves to be more than that, then we have the discussion about giving him the job.
I totally disagree with how easy it would be to sack Jones. There is a reputational element to this as well as a financial one.
We have had so many of them we ought to be experts on managers. It doesn’t look like we are. Judging them on results seems to be the most reliable approach.
I feel like Nathan Jones is a more exciting name than Gary Rowett.
Agreed, a close friend of mine is a Millwall ST holder (shocking I know), he said the football under Rowett got progressively worse year on year. Ground out some results (something we need right now, granted) but the manner of getting there was abysmal to watch.
Champagne football In this league? Have a word with yourself! if they win 1-0 every week and it's a borefest most of the time I really couldnt give a flying proverbial
We are not going to get perfection. Our choice is between managers with little or no experience, or managers with some degree of failure on their CV.
They’ll be astute ones in the rising camp, and busted flushes in the experienced camp.
We’ve just got to hope that at some stage we’ll get a good one. But never write someone off because they’ve had failure elsewhere. Without getting all Jake Humphrey, what you learn and adapt from failure is the most important thing and can hopefully improve you.
NJ sounds *very* boom or bust to me. High ceiling, low floor.
He could be the man that leads us to the fringes of the Premier League BUT if he goes off the rails, he could be part of the succession of managers that send us into the fourth tier for the first time ever.
That is in stark contrast to the other front runners IMO who would I would say are more “low ceiling, high floor” appointments in Warnock, Neil, Rowett etc. They probably aren’t taking clubs to the Premier League these days, but they would definitely be able to get us up to the Championship and they certainly wouldn’t let us get relegated from League One.
If they want Jones I appreciate them having 1. the money to do it because it won’t be cheap and 2. the big bollocks to go with a risky appointment that might pay off in spades versus the safe pairs of hands.
Hang on, so what manager do we want? Someone who doesn’t have the capability of reaching the fringes of the premier league and rotting in the top half of league one every season? I’m not suggesting this is what you mean exactly but I think we need to have a bit of a reality check here. For where we are, Nathan Jones would be a very good appointment for the long term future of this club! Couldn’t give a toss about his Southampton and Stoke days…both clubs were in ruins before the day he joined them!!
It's not about turning him down - he absolutely has the most potential of all the candidates which is very exciting. I'm just saying that he has previous for going off the rails (Southampton didn't sack him so quickly without good reason) and if he goes off the rails again, the possibility of League 2 becomes even more real than it already is. That is not true of other candidates where there's a clear path/strategy to having them get us out of this league and then continue building on their work in a few years time with another manager who takes us up yet another level.
If this ownership is it for the long haul and can accept the risk that comes with that then more power to them. He could be the best manager we've had in a long long time.
Trying to think of one example of each scenario where a club has hired a "nutcase".
An example of it going well is probably Bielsa at Leeds. They got their promotion that they desperately wanted but you can't say that he was a safe pair of hands, he doesn't do things conventionally and has history of leaving clubs on a whim.
An example of it going very wrong might be Felix Magath at Fulham who was previously decently regarded in Germany, managing Bayern from 2004-07 among others. It went wrong quite quickly, sacked after 20 games that involved a relegation and he famously told one of their centre backs to treat a knee injury with a block of cheese soaked in alcohol.
I feel like Nathan Jones is a more exciting name than Gary Rowett.
Agreed, a close friend of mine is a Millwall ST holder (shocking I know), he said the football under Rowett got progressively worse year on year. Ground out some results (something we need right now, granted) but the manner of getting there was abysmal to watch.
They soon forgot about being 45 minutes away from the playoffs.
I think Rowett played the way he thought would best get results with what he had. Millwall punched above their weight for a while there considering their budget. Because they were top half and flirting with playoffs I think a lot of fans thought they were entitled to be playing like Man City. Rowetts team ground out good wins. Curbs did similar with us in those Prem days. Played to what achieved our survival. I think Millwall will regret parting company with Rowett. Quite honestly I’d take grinding out a few 1 - 0’s if it could get us out of this shit division and establish us in The Championship.
I am not saying Jones or Rowett or somebody else might not be a success but appointing them now gives us one option. Giving Fleming a chance to get instant/quick results gives us two options. If only having one option was a guarantee of success, I would be for it but if Fleming is liked by the players he could have a short term impact which lifts us out of trouble and that buys time to make the right call.
I feel like Nathan Jones is a more exciting name than Gary Rowett.
Agreed, a close friend of mine is a Millwall ST holder (shocking I know), he said the football under Rowett got progressively worse year on year. Ground out some results (something we need right now, granted) but the manner of getting there was abysmal to watch.
Champagne football In this league? Have a word with yourself! if they win 1-0 every week and it's a borefest most of the time I really couldnt give a flying proverbial
I didn't say that though did I. Rowett played effective long ball football at Millwall, grinding out results is what we need this seaso to ensure we stay up, but next season we need to be aiming for promotion, how many teams have been promoted from League one playing that style of football in the modern era? Not many I would wager.
Jones is a devout Christian who credits his faith with getting him through bad times.[72] He has several religious tattoos on his body including praying hands and the crucifixion on his left biceps and forearm, Jesus Christ on his right biceps, and Michaelangelo's 'The Creation of Adam' across his back.[73]
Nathan Jones does not hide his faith and is very open to mentioning it during press conferences, occasionally appending 'God willing' to his hope that his tactics work.[74]
Jones is bilingual, able to speak both English and Spanish.[75]
I am so glad he speaks Spanish, otherwise I was getting a bit worried .
I feel like Nathan Jones is a more exciting name than Gary Rowett.
Agreed, a close friend of mine is a Millwall ST holder (shocking I know), he said the football under Rowett got progressively worse year on year. Ground out some results (something we need right now, granted) but the manner of getting there was abysmal to watch.
Champagne football In this league? Have a word with yourself! if they win 1-0 every week and it's a borefest most of the time I really couldnt give a flying proverbial
I didn't say that though did I. Rowett played effective long ball football at Millwall, grinding out results is what we need this seaso to ensure we stay up, but next season we need to be aiming for promotion, how many teams have been promoted from League one playing that style of football in the modern era? Not many I would wager.
I am not against appointing him but I would like us to give Fleming a chance first. A two defeats (and some wins) or we bring somebody in chance over February. I think that is the common sense approach. I know some people don't share it but if Jones came in and failed that would fcuk us up. Somebody like him should be the lasp gasp option.
And if we give Fleming a chance but he doesn't win any games, whoever we then get in has an even more difficult job and less time to rectify it in. So... no. Fleming is caretaker and only the caretaker, his only priority right now is to try and stop the rot and provide the basics of continuity. He's spent a career as assistant to the main coach, he's good at it, he seems quite content.
He is a decent guy from what I've seen but nowhere near the full time job.
But what makes you so sure Jones will? I am not having a Fleming love in but I was happy with Saturday and what if he gets a result next week? Even if it is short term, do we throw that away for something that may go right or wrong. If it doesn't work with Fleming we still have time. Maybe one or two games less but we have an extra life as it were.
Because Jones is someone who has proven success at this level as a Head coach. Fleming is not. Its a gamble either way and I am not 100% sold on Jones but he's by every metric a safer gamble than Fleming.
Getting someone (anyone really) in over Fleming may go right or wrong yes. But sticking with Fleming may also go right or wrong and hard to justify as anything other than kicking the can down the road.
If we were in midtable doldrums going nowhere then Fleming would get longer. We're not, so he doesn't. Harsh on him maybe but that's the game.
Jones is a proven success and a proven failure. People seem to forget that last bit. My argument with Fleming is that we can correct it within a few games if it isn't having instant results.
Don't get the logic behind that thinking.
Should we be giving Fleming the job because we can "correct it within a few games" or should we go for the person who can best deliver, in the regime's opinion, short and long term success?
I think the latter. We can as easily, though not as cheaply, sack Jones or whoever as sack Fleming. Waiting a few games isn't an option for us at the moment IMHO.
PS I like what I've seen of Fleming and can see why he's had a long career as an assistant as he would be the calm one in a crises and could smooth over problems and give individual players a lift. Wouldn't be at all unhappy if he stayed by the new manager's choice.
I am not saying give him the job. If he provides an instant lift, I am saying go with it. If it proves to be more than that, then we have the discussion about giving him the job.
I totally disagree with how easy it would be to sack Jones. There is a reputational element to this as well as a financial one.
Then what exactly are you saying? I'm genuinely confused. As of right now, he is charge of training and tactics.
Admittedly it would solve our reputation for hiring and firing coaches if we never actually employ one and just have a succession of 'caretakers' instead.
Obvious bias aside, I think we’re a better option. Huddersfield will always have a small budget compared with the rest of that league he knows he will just have to keep them up every season on a shoestring. With us there’s room for a promotion which looks good on a managers CV regardless of which league it’s in. In short who’s he got more chance of a promotion with?
I feel like Nathan Jones is a more exciting name than Gary Rowett.
Agreed, a close friend of mine is a Millwall ST holder (shocking I know), he said the football under Rowett got progressively worse year on year. Ground out some results (something we need right now, granted) but the manner of getting there was abysmal to watch.
I am not against appointing him but I would like us to give Fleming a chance first. A two defeats (and some wins) or we bring somebody in chance over February. I think that is the common sense approach. I know some people don't share it but if Jones came in and failed that would fcuk us up. Somebody like him should be the lasp gasp option.
And if we give Fleming a chance but he doesn't win any games, whoever we then get in has an even more difficult job and less time to rectify it in. So... no. Fleming is caretaker and only the caretaker, his only priority right now is to try and stop the rot and provide the basics of continuity. He's spent a career as assistant to the main coach, he's good at it, he seems quite content.
He is a decent guy from what I've seen but nowhere near the full time job.
But what makes you so sure Jones will? I am not having a Fleming love in but I was happy with Saturday and what if he gets a result next week? Even if it is short term, do we throw that away for something that may go right or wrong. If it doesn't work with Fleming we still have time. Maybe one or two games less but we have an extra life as it were.
Because Jones is someone who has proven success at this level as a Head coach. Fleming is not. Its a gamble either way and I am not 100% sold on Jones but he's by every metric a safer gamble than Fleming.
Getting someone (anyone really) in over Fleming may go right or wrong yes. But sticking with Fleming may also go right or wrong and hard to justify as anything other than kicking the can down the road.
If we were in midtable doldrums going nowhere then Fleming would get longer. We're not, so he doesn't. Harsh on him maybe but that's the game.
Jones is a proven success and a proven failure. People seem to forget that last bit. My argument with Fleming is that we can correct it within a few games if it isn't having instant results.
Don't get the logic behind that thinking.
Should we be giving Fleming the job because we can "correct it within a few games" or should we go for the person who can best deliver, in the regime's opinion, short and long term success?
I think the latter. We can as easily, though not as cheaply, sack Jones or whoever as sack Fleming. Waiting a few games isn't an option for us at the moment IMHO.
PS I like what I've seen of Fleming and can see why he's had a long career as an assistant as he would be the calm one in a crises and could smooth over problems and give individual players a lift. Wouldn't be at all unhappy if he stayed by the new manager's choice.
No Henry, obviously there's 17 games left so we should be hiring a whole array of caretaker managers. It doesn't matter if one fails because you can just get another one in and it's no harm done! Give Fleming 5 games, if he doesn't do well then apparently that doesn't do any harm and we're not tied in, so we can sack him and give the job to Jason Pearce (he gets 7 games because after all isn't that what this is all about) and then if he doesn't do great we chuck him and give it to Jason Euell for 5 games. He fails too and we get relegated? We're not tied in and we can correct it! It's flawless logic when you think about it. Eventually we'll stumble into a caretaker who can get some good results in his first few games and then we're laughing.
Whoever we get will not be perfect - they cant be.
We just need to see its not an appointment of convenience for the SMT in simply rewarding an individual they have some prior connection with or just going for the cheapest option. we want to see a 'genuine' manager in role and not a gamble.
Given the inability of MA to do anything positive with our squad the next incumbent just needs to get enough points to stay up and to show they could potentially do more next season. Most of the names being thrown around fit that description but don't necessarily excite - we just need promotion n due course however it comes.
From reading the article posted on NJ feels like he’d want control of transfers too? Given his success at it at Luton
And he will be able to choose his players like Appleton did .. that’s why he went with Scott to Coventry house … a manger still has major say on the players he wants only diff nowadays they don’t have to do the scouting , talking to agents clubs and player or neq the deal ….
Jones is a devout Christian who credits his faith with getting him through bad times.[72] He has several religious tattoos on his body including praying hands and the crucifixion on his left biceps and forearm, Jesus Christ on his right biceps, and Michaelangelo's 'The Creation of Adam' across his back.[73]
Nathan Jones does not hide his faith and is very open to mentioning it during press conferences, occasionally appending 'God willing' to his hope that his tactics work.[74]
Jones is bilingual, able to speak both English and Spanish.[75]
I am so glad he speaks Spanish, otherwise I was getting a bit worried .
If there is a god, he might want to spend a bit more time fixing famine, war, and disease than worrying about how effective a back 3 is going to be for Luton vs. Huddersfield.
Obvious bias aside, I think we’re a better option. Huddersfield will always have a small budget compared with the rest of that league he knows he will just have to keep them up every season on a shoestring. With us there’s room for a promotion which looks good on a managers CV regardless of which league it’s in. In short who’s he got more chance of a promotion with?
Jones is a devout Christian who credits his faith with getting him through bad times.[72] He has several religious tattoos on his body including praying hands and the crucifixion on his left biceps and forearm, Jesus Christ on his right biceps, and Michaelangelo's 'The Creation of Adam' across his back.[73]
Nathan Jones does not hide his faith and is very open to mentioning it during press conferences, occasionally appending 'God willing' to his hope that his tactics work.[74]
Jones is bilingual, able to speak both English and Spanish.[75]
I am so glad he speaks Spanish, otherwise I was getting a bit worried .
what odds we have the Fleming/Pearce combo in situ until season's end ? .. IF they start getting results, we will all (well most of us except perhaps the Jones lovers) be very pleased
Jones is a devout Christian who credits his faith with getting him through bad times.[72] He has several religious tattoos on his body including praying hands and the crucifixion on his left biceps and forearm, Jesus Christ on his right biceps, and Michaelangelo's 'The Creation of Adam' across his back.[73]
Nathan Jones does not hide his faith and is very open to mentioning it during press conferences, occasionally appending 'God willing' to his hope that his tactics work.[74]
Jones is bilingual, able to speak both English and Spanish.[75]
I am so glad he speaks Spanish, otherwise I was getting a bit worried .
what odds we have the Fleming/Pearce combo in situ until season's end ? .. IF they start getting results, we will all (well most of us except perhaps the Jones lovers) be very pleased
Far too much of a gamble. We don't have the luxury of time. Waiting to see if they work could very well relegate us.
We need an experienced manager in the door ASAP or things could get ugly very quickly.
I am not saying Jones or Rowett or somebody else might not be a success but appointing them now gives us one option. Giving Fleming a chance to get instant/quick results gives us two options. If only having one option was a guarantee of success, I would be for it but if Fleming is liked by the players he could have a short term impact which lifts us out of trouble and that buys time to make the right call.
But if you give him say the next three games and he doesn’t lift us out of trouble then not only will it give the next manager less games to get us out of trouble but it may take a week or so to get that manager in and by then we are well and truely in the brown stuff. How do we know he even wants the job, has he ever applied for any managerial positions? We are not in a position to experiment.
If there is a god, he might want to spend a bit more time fixing famine, war, and disease than worrying about how effective a back 3 is going to be for Luton vs. Huddersfield.
Good point! Since my comment earlier today about Jones bringing in God as his Number Two, I've seriously gone off the idea. Looking at the state of the planet that God is supposed to have created, I would say God has done a pretty shite job of looking after it (wars, famine, climate, Palace, etc.). Therefore, I don't think God should be let anywhere near our club. God has been properly Charltonised before he has even arrived...
what odds we have the Fleming/Pearce combo in situ until season's end ? .. IF they start getting results, we will all (well most of us except perhaps the Jones lovers) be very pleased
Far too much of a gamble. We don't have the luxury of time. Waiting to see if they work could very well relegate us.
We need an experienced manager in the door ASAP or things could get ugly very quickly.
agreed, I did make the comment with my tongue firmly in my cheek
Comments
I totally disagree with how easy it would be to sack Jones. There is a reputational element to this as well as a financial one.
It doesn’t look like we are.
Judging them on results seems to be the most reliable approach.
if they win 1-0 every week and it's a borefest most of the time I really couldnt give a flying proverbial
Jones is a devout Christian who credits his faith with getting him through bad times.[72] He has several religious tattoos on his body including praying hands and the crucifixion on his left biceps and forearm, Jesus Christ on his right biceps, and Michaelangelo's 'The Creation of Adam' across his back.[73]
Nathan Jones does not hide his faith and is very open to mentioning it during press conferences, occasionally appending 'God willing' to his hope that his tactics work.[74]
Jones is bilingual, able to speak both English and Spanish.[75]
I am so glad he speaks Spanish, otherwise I was getting a bit worried .
Admittedly it would solve our reputation for hiring and firing coaches if we never actually employ one and just have a succession of 'caretakers' instead.
People said the same about us under Curbs.
Whoever we get will not be perfect - they cant be.
We just need to see its not an appointment of convenience for the SMT in simply rewarding an individual they have some prior connection with or just going for the cheapest option. we want to see a 'genuine' manager in role and not a gamble.
Given the inability of MA to do anything positive with our squad the next incumbent just needs to get enough points to stay up and to show they could potentially do more next season. Most of the names being thrown around fit that description but don't necessarily excite - we just need promotion n due course however it comes.
We need an experienced manager in the door ASAP or things could get ugly very quickly.
Since my comment earlier today about Jones bringing in God as his Number Two, I've seriously gone off the idea.
Looking at the state of the planet that God is supposed to have created, I would say God has done a pretty shite job of looking after it (wars, famine, climate, Palace, etc.).
Therefore, I don't think God should be let anywhere near our club.
God has been properly Charltonised before he has even arrived...