Any proposed solution to any complex problem which begins "it's simple..." is automatically wrong.
Just spending money isn't enough.
Duchatelet spent so much he lost £13m in a season and we got relegated.
Sandgaard spent a lot of money but a lot of it was wasted on the likes of Schwarzt and Kirk.
Spending in itself isn't enough, this is the real world not football manager.
Of course, having a bigger budget is a huge advantage but you need to spend it well.
You need a good manager to coach the players you've brought in (radical idea but you could even let the manager pick those players).
You need a balanced squad, you need experience, leadership and flexibility.
You need good recruitment so you get the right personalities.
You need good scouting to see what opposition are doing.
You need the right sports science people and facilities to get and keep the players fit.
You need good facilities and infrastructure to back up all of that.
You need time and management to build a collection of individuals into a team that is greater than the sum of its parts.
No, it's not "simple". That's what Sandgaard and Duchatelet thought.
We've yet to see if GFP are any better.
Right, back to some rumours now.
Everything you just said is solved by money though and I am saying money gets you out of league 1, I understand the championship is a more complex beast (you spend even more money)
A good manager, is secured by money or having knowledge of managers on the up, which you need to buy out from their club.
A balanced squad you gain by spending money, good scouts are on good money, the right sports science, again money.
Everything you said just involves us spending more than the other teams to secure the top staff at this level?
Sandgaards arrogance, was his downfall, not the size of his wallet. Had he had the right people in his ear, we wouldn't be in this league still. Unfortunately he's his own man and refused to have the humility to let people give him the advice he needed.
Roland is old news and a lot more complex, he also had us in the championship whereas I am talking about league 1 here. Roland didn't spend the required cash to be competitive in the championship but that's a whole other argument.
Any ownership that comes in and talks about 'building projects' 'plans in place' is talking sh*t to save money. This league is tripe and it's no coincidence all the bigger spenders are in the top 8 (we'd probably be with a decent, non-journeyman manager)
You buy your way out of here, you aim to survive the following season in the championship and then you build there where players are more likely to stay and if they don't they go for reasonable fees. There is no long sustainability in this league or time for 'projects' as seen by our dwindling numbers and loss of interest in Charlton.
It's not just money though, it's money and good decision making. The decision making is where we've been lacking for so so long
You can have all the decision making in the world but cash trumps all.
I understand where you are coming from though and I have sort of covered that by mentioning Sandgaard.
Unfortunately based on our recent transfer history and the fact that Appleton is still in post, we evidently have neither currently until proven otherwise.
Think Plymouth are a good example of decision making being more important. Not denying that they've spent money but they're a relatively small club for the Championship and location makes them a hard sell. But they have a good philosophy and set up which has led to 2 coaches in a row being poached. Neither were big name expensive hires.
Plymouth are a good example but also a bit of an anomaly with the points tally they gained, especially after losing their manager.
Plymouth aren't some fairytale story though, they were the 8th highest spenders in the league in terms of wages and squad value (we were 9th) and the only teams ranked above them were, in order: Peterborough, Derby, Bolton, Barnsley, Ipswich, Portsmouth, Sheffield Wednesday. All of those sides made up the top8 for that season, we were the only side in the top9 spend to not get top 9.
They utilised the loan market extremely well securing Azaz, Whittaker and Mumba who were all a huge success and pivotal in gaining promotion.
So although Plymouth are a team who beat the odds slightly, it wasn't a long term project, they heavily relied on outstanding loans and had to spend very competitive wages to gain promotion.
This season we currently sit in 10th in wages and squad value and are underperforming again. Out of the top 8 current biggest spenders in this league, all 6 of the teams in the play offs currently occupy those slots in the top8 spend.
It really is just about spending money in one way or another. It's so unlikely you'll ever see a team get promoted from this league doing it any other way. All the best coaches, scouts, players require decent cash, you can't do it on the cheap. Only a few have.
We shouldn't have to be one of those clubs like Burton who did or Shrewsbury who nearly did as we have more at our disposal every season in this poxy league.
Braziliance "You can have all the decision making in the world but cash trumps all." That is rubbish - even with the cash if you make the wrong decisions you get nowhere, however with less cash and the right decisions you can get somewhere
Braziliance "You can have all the decision making in the world but cash trumps all." That is rubbish - even with the cash if you make the wrong decisions you get nowhere, however with less cash and the right decisions you can get somewhere
In all of football, the best gauge of knowing where a team will finish is the wage total of the squad. It has a fairly good correlation with the actual league table.
Sure, some smart decision making will get you to outperform, but the average higher wage squad will finish higher than a lower wage one. Money trumps.
Braziliance "You can have all the decision making in the world but cash trumps all." That is rubbish - even with the cash if you make the wrong decisions you get nowhere, however with less cash and the right decisions you can get somewhere
In all of football, the best gauge of knowing where a team will finish is the wage total of the squad. It has a fairly good correlation with the actual league table.
Sure, some smart decision making will get you to outperform, but the average higher wage squad will finish higher than a lower wage one. Money trumps.
I don't see us getting Conor Coventry. Featured for West Ham on the bench, I don't see him dropping down to league 1 on a permanent.
I think that link stinks of agent talk/ the club giving Cawley something to post as we trust him and it may take the heat off them.
Sort of like how I am interested in Dua Lipa but she has the pick of most blokes in the world & I'm just a tubby lad from London
Apart from half a season in the championship he’s only played League 1 football
It is more so it being a permanent transfer.
Good player but I reckon this one is unlikely. If we did manage it however and kept Dobson, that would be a cracking midfield duo
He’s 24 in March and has been said he’ll be leaving West Ham at the end of his contract. I’d imagine they’d rather get a fee for him perhaps with a sell on clause rather than lose him for nothing in the summer.
He’s had four loan spells, two in L1 and two in the Championship, both of the latter with smaller clubs in Posh and Rotherham. If he was going to seriously interest Championship clubs he’d have probably left WH by now.
He’s also played under MA at Lincoln and will be available, I’d be surprised if we weren’t interested.
It’s not the sort of signing we’ve made before but for all those reasons he seems a realistic target to me. We need to bring in experience but if we’re making several signings a few like Coventry who have some but are young enough to improve would make sense.
I have seen today Posh fans saying he wasn't very good and they sent him back.
I see them as sort of a gatekeeper/benchmark team in this league and of the opinion if they don't rate him, is he good enough for us?
JCH is different as if he had a longer contract he'd still be playing for them, he's simply just ran his race there so it's a signing that makes sense.
Only time will tell but I think Peterborough fans have a decent idea on who's a good player and who's not as they've had the luxury of watching a lot of the better players in this league for a number of years
That was when they were in the Championship though, and when he was only 21 and had played 7 L1 games and a bit of a League Cup game prior to that in his whole career. I don't think Peterborough a league up are a benchmark for where we are right now, he subsequently was apparently very good for MK Dons in L1 and then stepped back up to the Championship to good effect after that with Rotherham
That makes a lot more sense then, I thought it was a league 1 loan, my mistake.
Peterborough are a benchmark side for me in this league I meant, they always tend to play good football, tend to be higher up the table rather than lower and I am of the view, if you are better than them, you're probably at least a play-offs worthy side.
Braziliance "You can have all the decision making in the world but cash trumps all." That is rubbish - even with the cash if you make the wrong decisions you get nowhere, however with less cash and the right decisions you can get somewhere
Yeah total rubbish mate, completely ignore the fact that all the biggest spenders in this league are finishing in the top6 or just outside it year after year.
We have never spent the cash enough and failed to find that out for ourselves, the one time we did we made a joke of this league.
Why are you using a scenario where we should be aspiring to be a league 1 side punching above their weight?
We aren't in that position and even if we were, as proven season after season, you'll stay in this league, other than the odd anomaly
One of our problems has been that our recent owners, past and present, think they know more than other owners when the formula is pretty simple and about bringing the right people in, which does come at some cost.
Any proposed solution to any complex problem which begins "it's simple..." is automatically wrong.
Just spending money isn't enough.
Duchatelet spent so much he lost £13m in a season and we got relegated.
Sandgaard spent a lot of money but a lot of it was wasted on the likes of Schwarzt and Kirk.
Spending in itself isn't enough, this is the real world not football manager.
Of course, having a bigger budget is a huge advantage but you need to spend it well.
You need a good manager to coach the players you've brought in (radical idea but you could even let the manager pick those players).
You need a balanced squad, you need experience, leadership and flexibility.
You need good recruitment so you get the right personalities.
You need good scouting to see what opposition are doing.
You need the right sports science people and facilities to get and keep the players fit.
You need good facilities and infrastructure to back up all of that.
You need time and management to build a collection of individuals into a team that is greater than the sum of its parts.
No, it's not "simple". That's what Sandgaard and Duchatelet thought.
We've yet to see if GFP are any better.
Right, back to some rumours now.
Everything you just said is solved by money though and I am saying money gets you out of league 1, I understand the championship is a more complex beast (you spend even more money)
A good manager, is secured by money or having knowledge of managers on the up, which you need to buy out from their club.
A balanced squad you gain by spending money, good scouts are on good money, the right sports science, again money.
Everything you said just involves us spending more than the other teams to secure the top staff at this level?
Sandgaards arrogance, was his downfall, not the size of his wallet. Had he had the right people in his ear, we wouldn't be in this league still. Unfortunately he's his own man and refused to have the humility to let people give him the advice he needed.
Roland is old news and a lot more complex, he also had us in the championship whereas I am talking about league 1 here. Roland didn't spend the required cash to be competitive in the championship but that's a whole other argument.
Any ownership that comes in and talks about 'building projects' 'plans in place' is talking sh*t to save money. This league is tripe and it's no coincidence all the bigger spenders are in the top 8 (we'd probably be with a decent, non-journeyman manager)
You buy your way out of here, you aim to survive the following season in the championship and then you build there where players are more likely to stay and if they don't they go for reasonable fees. There is no long sustainability in this league or time for 'projects' as seen by our dwindling numbers and loss of interest in Charlton.
You have missed the point completely.
We already spend money, a lot of money.
We have consistently had a budget in the top three or four in this division but have underperformed by that metric.
Not because we underpaid our managers or players, if anything we've paid over the odds for underperformance.
It is largely because we spent the money badly, we spent the money in an inconsistent way, we allowed unqualified people to make decisions based on poor data and insufficient knowledge of how to build a team or the importance of a team ethic.
Then when the money had been spent the players, good and bad, joined an often dysfunctional club which lacked much of the infrastructure and continuity that is needed for success.
To misquote that famous Reading player O. Wilde
"Money won't always buy you success but it will buy you a better class of failure
Braziliance "You can have all the decision making in the world but cash trumps all." That is rubbish - even with the cash if you make the wrong decisions you get nowhere, however with less cash and the right decisions you can get somewhere
Braziliance "You can have all the decision making in the world but cash trumps all." That is rubbish - even with the cash if you make the wrong decisions you get nowhere, however with less cash and the right decisions you can get somewhere
In all of football, the best gauge of knowing where a team will finish is the wage total of the squad. It has a fairly good correlation with the actual league table.
Sure, some smart decision making will get you to outperform, but the average higher wage squad will finish higher than a lower wage one. Money trumps.
But we are already one of the biggest spenders in this league.
You need to spend but you also need to spend it well and then have a good environment from which to grow a winning team.
It’s all gone a bit quiet on Gillesphey, I hope that happens as he ticks all boxes of what we need at the moment
Apologies if already been said.
Plymouth supporting friend of mine reckons he failed his medical.
I was just about to post if it had fallen through because of :
1) changed his mind after watching on Monday 2) high jacked by another club 3) failed his medical 4) all a rouse by the Club to make it look like we are actually trying to sign players
Braziliance "You can have all the decision making in the world but cash trumps all." That is rubbish - even with the cash if you make the wrong decisions you get nowhere, however with less cash and the right decisions you can get somewhere
Yeah total rubbish mate, completely ignore the fact that all the biggest spenders in this league are finishing in the top6 or just outside it year after year.
We have never spent the cash enough and failed to find that out for ourselves, the one time we did we made a joke of this league.
Why are you using a scenario where we should be aspiring to be a league 1 side punching above their weight?
We aren't in that position and even if we were, as proven season after season, you'll stay in this league, other than the odd anomaly
First of all I'm not your mate, so please ditch the familiarity
Secondly I'm not suggesting that we should punch above our weight, after all what is our weight?
I do agree with you that sound finances help a club prosper but I suggest that is no good without wise decision making.
Rome wasn’t built in a day and for me, the owners still have time to turn things around. You can’t turn this club around in one window. I’d imagine any player signed this month will be signed on the basis of being ready to go next August, which is a positive if they’re good enough.
I am fairly convinced Appleton isn’t the right man to take us forward, would be very happy for him to be sacked right now, BUT I equally am bored of the managerial merry go round and can see from their perspective why they should give him this transfer window to show he is capable.
Braziliance "You can have all the decision making in the world but cash trumps all." That is rubbish - even with the cash if you make the wrong decisions you get nowhere, however with less cash and the right decisions you can get somewhere
Yeah total rubbish mate, completely ignore the fact that all the biggest spenders in this league are finishing in the top6 or just outside it year after year.
We have never spent the cash enough and failed to find that out for ourselves, the one time we did we made a joke of this league.
Why are you using a scenario where we should be aspiring to be a league 1 side punching above their weight?
We aren't in that position and even if we were, as proven season after season, you'll stay in this league, other than the odd anomaly
First of all I'm not your mate, so please ditch the familiarity
Secondly I'm not suggesting that we should punch above our weight, after all what is our weight?
I do agree with you that sound finances help a club prosper but I suggest that is no good without wise decision making.
It’s all gone a bit quiet on Gillesphey, I hope that happens as he ticks all boxes of what we need at the moment
Apologies if already been said.
Plymouth supporting friend of mine reckons he failed his medical.
I was just about to post if it had fallen through because of :
1) changed his mind after watching on Monday 2) high jacked by another club 3) failed his medical 4) all a rouse by the Club to make it look like we are actually trying to sign players
I don't see us getting Conor Coventry. Featured for West Ham on the bench, I don't see him dropping down to league 1 on a permanent.
I think that link stinks of agent talk/ the club giving Cawley something to post as we trust him and it may take the heat off them.
Sort of like how I am interested in Dua Lipa but she has the pick of most blokes in the world & I'm just a tubby lad from London
Apart from half a season in the championship he’s only played League 1 football
It is more so it being a permanent transfer.
Good player but I reckon this one is unlikely. If we did manage it however and kept Dobson, that would be a cracking midfield duo
He’s 24 in March and has been said he’ll be leaving West Ham at the end of his contract. I’d imagine they’d rather get a fee for him perhaps with a sell on clause rather than lose him for nothing in the summer.
He’s had four loan spells, two in L1 and two in the Championship, both of the latter with smaller clubs in Posh and Rotherham. If he was going to seriously interest Championship clubs he’d have probably left WH by now.
He’s also played under MA at Lincoln and will be available, I’d be surprised if we weren’t interested.
It’s not the sort of signing we’ve made before but for all those reasons he seems a realistic target to me. We need to bring in experience but if we’re making several signings a few like Coventry who have some but are young enough to improve would make sense.
I have seen today Posh fans saying he wasn't very good and they sent him back.
I see them as sort of a gatekeeper/benchmark team in this league and of the opinion if they don't rate him, is he good enough for us?
JCH is different as if he had a longer contract he'd still be playing for them, he's simply just ran his race there so it's a signing that makes sense.
Only time will tell but I think Peterborough fans have a decent idea on who's a good player and who's not as they've had the luxury of watching a lot of the better players in this league for a number of years
That was when they were in the Championship though, and when he was only 21 and had played 7 L1 games and a bit of a League Cup game prior to that in his whole career. I don't think Peterborough a league up are a benchmark for where we are right now, he subsequently was apparently very good for MK Dons in L1 and then stepped back up to the Championship to good effect after that with Rotherham
IIRC it was a very similar story with Cullen. Performed really well at League One level for Bradford and got a Championship loan to Bolton.
He only played 12 games and Bolton fans didn’t rate him. He came back into League One with us and then made the step up to the Championship and beyond after that.
Coventry is still young enough that it’s not too late for him to have a similar trajectory.
Comments
Plymouth aren't some fairytale story though, they were the 8th highest spenders in the league in terms of wages and squad value (we were 9th) and the only teams ranked above them were, in order: Peterborough, Derby, Bolton, Barnsley, Ipswich, Portsmouth, Sheffield Wednesday. All of those sides made up the top8 for that season, we were the only side in the top9 spend to not get top 9.
They utilised the loan market extremely well securing Azaz, Whittaker and Mumba who were all a huge success and pivotal in gaining promotion.
So although Plymouth are a team who beat the odds slightly, it wasn't a long term project, they heavily relied on outstanding loans and had to spend very competitive wages to gain promotion.
This season we currently sit in 10th in wages and squad value and are underperforming again. Out of the top 8 current biggest spenders in this league, all 6 of the teams in the play offs currently occupy those slots in the top8 spend.
It really is just about spending money in one way or another. It's so unlikely you'll ever see a team get promoted from this league doing it any other way. All the best coaches, scouts, players require decent cash, you can't do it on the cheap. Only a few have.
We shouldn't have to be one of those clubs like Burton who did or Shrewsbury who nearly did as we have more at our disposal every season in this poxy league.
"You can have all the decision making in the world but cash trumps all."
That is rubbish - even with the cash if you make the wrong decisions you get nowhere, however with less cash and the right decisions you can get somewhere
Sure, some smart decision making will get you to outperform, but the average higher wage squad will finish higher than a lower wage one. Money trumps.
We are the consistent exception to this rule.
Peterborough are a benchmark side for me in this league I meant, they always tend to play good football, tend to be higher up the table rather than lower and I am of the view, if you are better than them, you're probably at least a play-offs worthy side.
We had our smart, 20+ years ago, it's been a literny of fuckwits and brain dead "look at me me me's" ever since.
We have never spent the cash enough and failed to find that out for ourselves, the one time we did we made a joke of this league.
Why are you using a scenario where we should be aspiring to be a league 1 side punching above their weight?
We aren't in that position and even if we were, as proven season after season, you'll stay in this league, other than the odd anomaly
You have missed the point completely.
We already spend money, a lot of money.
We have consistently had a budget in the top three or four in this division but have underperformed by that metric.
Not because we underpaid our managers or players, if anything we've paid over the odds for underperformance.
It is largely because we spent the money badly, we spent the money in an inconsistent way, we allowed unqualified people to make decisions based on poor data and insufficient knowledge of how to build a team or the importance of a team ethic.
Then when the money had been spent the players, good and bad, joined an often dysfunctional club which lacked much of the infrastructure and continuity that is needed for success.
To misquote that famous Reading player O. Wilde
"Money won't always buy you success but it will buy you a better class of failure
You need to spend but you also need to spend it well and then have a good environment from which to grow a winning team.
SHG is right this isn't really anything to get excited about
Plymouth supporting friend of mine reckons he failed his medical.
1) changed his mind after watching on Monday
2) high jacked by another club
3) failed his medical
4) all a rouse by the Club to make it look like we are actually trying to sign players
Secondly I'm not suggesting that we should punch above our weight, after all what is our weight?
I do agree with you that sound finances help a club prosper but I suggest that is no good without wise decision making.
Nothing done by halves at our club.
He only played 12 games and Bolton fans didn’t rate him. He came back into League One with us and then made the step up to the Championship and beyond after that.
Coventry is still young enough that it’s not too late for him to have a similar trajectory.