@PragueAddick why are you so staunchly in it's corner? What do you think is great about the current mock up?
I tried to articulate what I like about it, but I don't think it is -yet - great. I've tried to explain that it seems to me reasonable that a mural works in a different way to the many photo based displays we already have, or the old painting which I put up earlier. I think many of the critical commentators expect something that ends up either as a photo or a another Terence Macklin painting.
It's Ok not to like it. I had to think about it a bit myself when I first saw it. But I'd like people to try and think a bit more about what they would like, and try and express it.
I've got a nasty feeling that it just may not be worth the bother.
I assume you are saying, turn that into a painting?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
No, I was just showing/reminding people of the reality of the day and not some DEI fake misrepresentation of the day.
I think a mural of Roger Alwen & the fans coming through the gates would be best or perhaps Colin Walsh's goal. They are the 2 obvious stand outs to represent the day in perpetuity.
Nearly everyone fondly remember's those 2 things, the proposed mural evokes next to nothing.
Alright, that's clear enough. Not what I understood from you posting up photos of the end of the game from the Covered End.
And what the fuck is DEI? I have no idea, and I fear I may regret asking.
I'll say what everyone else is thinking. It's fucking shit and needs a rethink and possibly new artist.
A piss artist would have made a better attempt at it
It’s like some 15 year old for their GCSE’s has been tasked with this as part of their course work. I’m gonna give the trust the benefit of the doubt and say this has just been mocked up as an initial announcement.
This IS a mock up, created by the mural artists to give an idea of what the final mural will look like.
Obviously the nature of it being a somewhat collage of pictures (at the moment, in the mock-up) is based on the feed back/necessities given to the artists who has created a picture to show the different things that will be in the final thing. newspapers ‘not being held’, and sausage looking gates will clearly be something that is refined and perfected- this is to be done by hand (spray paint, and other materials) rather than a huge sticker as some would gather by responses on here!
Hope that helps?
I think the actual content of the mural ie some flags and the gates with the back of people's heads going into a stadium that's already full, will look shite, however way it is painted. For me a mural should pick a defining moment of the day, either the opening of the gates, the first goal scored, the plenty of shots pre match talk to the players, something like that. I feel like this is trying to pander to too many things at once, and the depicted "fans" are a far cry from who was actually there on the day
Whilst the picture is, as you say, somewhat ‘busy’ - the wall is reasonably large/long so will be less cramped in actuality!
I’m a little bemused as to what you mean by ‘fans being a far cry from who was actually there’… The mural shows/depicts Alwen who of course opened the gates. The straw hat lady (edit: Gwen King, Valley Party candidate) who was interviewed for several news pieces, as was the trombone/band player shown too (from 20:35, https://youtu.be/D4bKlYZWy1Y ) The rest ,show family’s and other demographics (rather than the stereotypical football fan) who were at The Valley that day- women, children and people of colour…
Why not show at least one "stereotypical football fan"?
It's great to show people representing different demographics, but why ignore the single biggest group of fans, without whom the club would probably have died in the wilderness years?
Can’t argue with that.
A lot of work has gone into this I’m sure, but hopefully a tweak isn’t out of the question?
I assume you are saying, turn that into a painting?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
And how does an LOL answer the question in a constructive way that will help CAST re-brief or re-think?
If you really do not understand my question, show your photo to somebody who isn't a Charlton fan, or even a Charlton fan aged under 30, and ask them what they are looking at.
I've given my constructive thoughts above, you must have missed them. I'd venture to suggest they would be the most agreed upon view. Sorry for the lol, it just made me laugh that you thought the pre match daylight warm up was post match when it was of course pitch dark.
I assume you are saying, turn that into a painting?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
It's before the game not the end
Well, exactly. At first glance I didn't even twi that. So what will any casual observer ( meaning, anyone visiting the Valley who wasn't there in 92) think it is? Probably a low key pitch invasion?
I assume you are saying, turn that into a painting?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
No, I was just showing/reminding people of the reality of the day and not some DEI fake misrepresentation of the day.
I think a mural of Roger Alwen & the fans coming through the gates would be best or perhaps Colin Walsh's goal. They are the 2 obvious stand outs to represent the day in perpetuity.
Nearly everyone fondly remember's those 2 things, the proposed mural evokes next to nothing.
Alright, that's clear enough. Not what I understood from you posting up photos of the end of the game from the Covered End.
And what the fuck is DEI? I have no idea, and I fear I may regret asking.
I'd never heard of it myself until someone posted it on this thread. DE&I stands for diversity, equity and inclusion. As a discipline, DE&I is any policy or practice designed to make people of various backgrounds feel welcome. I'm all for DEI where appropriate, but the proposal does not represent 5/12/92, which is surely the purpose.
Surely we need a counterbalance to this wonderful project. On a suitable wall, I suggest a rogues gallery to "commemorate" the numerous con men and snake oil salesmen who tried to ruin our club. "Twats to The Valley".
I assume you are saying, turn that into a painting?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
No, I was just showing/reminding people of the reality of the day and not some DEI fake misrepresentation of the day.
I think a mural of Roger Alwen & the fans coming through the gates would be best or perhaps Colin Walsh's goal. They are the 2 obvious stand outs to represent the day in perpetuity.
Nearly everyone fondly remember's those 2 things, the proposed mural evokes next to nothing.
I have to say I agree. Or somehow combine the two? I don’t think the mural is terrible at all, but it could be seen as a bit ‘chocolate boxy’.
I assume you are saying, turn that into a painting?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
And how does an LOL answer the question in a constructive way that will help CAST re-brief or re-think?
If you really do not understand my question, show your photo to somebody who isn't a Charlton fan, or even a Charlton fan aged under 30, and ask them what they are looking at.
I've given my constructive thoughts above, you must have missed them. I'd venture to suggest they would be the most agreed upon view. Sorry for the lol, it just made me laugh that you thought the pre match daylight warm up was post match when it was of course pitch dark.
Yes well I deleted that comment after I saw your subsequent response but it illustrates that most people don't pay huge attention to advertising or other visual mass messages. End or beginning, it's going to look to most people like a match at an old Valley with a few people on the pitch who should not be there. It isn't IMO a clear brief for a better mural. But no matter, you've subsequently written more clearly what you would like. It's probably going to be more or less the best they can do without setting off a shitstorm.
Why are you suggesting "the fans" have not been able to express an opinion? Here is the thread, here you are, expressing your opinion...
I assume you are saying, turn that into a painting?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
No, I was just showing/reminding people of the reality of the day and not some DEI fake misrepresentation of the day.
I think a mural of Roger Alwen & the fans coming through the gates would be best or perhaps Colin Walsh's goal. They are the 2 obvious stand outs to represent the day in perpetuity.
Nearly everyone fondly remember's those 2 things, the proposed mural evokes next to nothing.
I have to say I agree. Or somehow combine the two? I don’t think the mural is terrible at all, but it could be seen as a bit ‘chocolate boxy’.
No, it's shit and doesn't depict the day, in any normal fan's eyes, in any way other than a picture of Roger Alwen. It could be so much better.
I assume you are saying, turn that into a painting?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
And how does an LOL answer the question in a constructive way that will help CAST re-brief or re-think?
If you really do not understand my question, show your photo to somebody who isn't a Charlton fan, or even a Charlton fan aged under 30, and ask them what they are looking at.
I've given my constructive thoughts above, you must have missed them. I'd venture to suggest they would be the most agreed upon view. Sorry for the lol, it just made me laugh that you thought the pre match daylight warm up was post match when it was of course pitch dark.
Yes well I deleted that comment after I saw your subsequent response but it illustrates that most people don't pay huge attention to advertising or other visual mass messages. End or beginning, it's going to look to most people like a match at an old Valley with a few people on the pitch who should not be there. It isn't IMO a clear brief for a better mural. But no matter, you've subsequently written more clearly what you would like. It's probably going to be more or less the best they can do without setting off a shitstorm.
Why are you suggesting "the fans" have not been able to express an opinion? Here is the thread, here you are, expressing your opinion...
Surely the requests for opinions from CAST should have come before the request for donations?
I assume you are saying, turn that into a painting?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
And how does an LOL answer the question in a constructive way that will help CAST re-brief or re-think?
If you really do not understand my question, show your photo to somebody who isn't a Charlton fan, or even a Charlton fan aged under 30, and ask them what they are looking at.
I've given my constructive thoughts above, you must have missed them. I'd venture to suggest they would be the most agreed upon view. Sorry for the lol, it just made me laugh that you thought the pre match daylight warm up was post match when it was of course pitch dark.
Yes well I deleted that comment after I saw your subsequent response but it illustrates that most people don't pay huge attention to advertising or other visual mass messages. End or beginning, it's going to look to most people like a match at an old Valley with a few people on the pitch who should not be there. It isn't IMO a clear brief for a better mural. But no matter, you've subsequently written more clearly what you would like. It's probably going to be more or less the best they can do without setting off a shitstorm.
Why are you suggesting "the fans" have not been able to express an opinion? Here is the thread, here you are, expressing your opinion...
You've read my suggestions (is my understanding from what you said).
You've read that I wasn't proposing a mural of any of "my photos" (is my understanding from what you said).
I said "I was just showing/reminding people of the reality of the day and not some DEI fake misrepresentation of the day".
I'm lost as to why you keep saying I think any of the photos would make a better mural, when I have clearly explained that is not my proposal and clearly explained what my proposal is.
The reason I said it felt like fans haven't been able to express an opinion is because of what CAST wrote -
"Charlton Athletic Supporters Trust (CAST) volunteered to take the project forward and have commissioned artist Katie Scott to design a celebratory mural (see digital representation above) to be painted at The Valley. The mural will be sited at the entrance to the stadium on the wall of the club shop opposite Valley Central. CAST are now managing the fundraising on behalf of the BTTV30 committee".
"We need to raise £5350 to bring the project to fruition. We have already received a pledge of £500 from Valley Gold so we are seeking a further £4850. We are hoping that we can reach this target by mid September so that Katie can complete the mural before the Reading game on October 21st. Please chip in what you can to ensure that future generations of Charlton fans never forget how the directors and supporters worked together against the odds to bring our club home.
You can contribute here:"
The funds are required by mid September so the mural can be completed by 21st October.
I may have missed CAST's request for fans views on what we would like, perhaps someone can direct me?
I see no request for fan's views, only a request for money.
It reads to me as a fait accompli, with funds needed quickly for completion in less than 2 months.
As a non charlton fan, I still know what that day meant to my charlton hombres and that is a fuckin embarrassing pile of dogshit for lots of the reasons already stated.
I'll say what everyone else is thinking. It's fucking shit and needs a rethink and possibly new artist.
A piss artist would have made a better attempt at it
It’s like some 15 year old for their GCSE’s has been tasked with this as part of their course work. I’m gonna give the trust the benefit of the doubt and say this has just been mocked up as an initial announcement.
This IS a mock up, created by the mural artists to give an idea of what the final mural will look like.
Obviously the nature of it being a somewhat collage of pictures (at the moment, in the mock-up) is based on the feed back/necessities given to the artists who has created a picture to show the different things that will be in the final thing. newspapers ‘not being held’, and sausage looking gates will clearly be something that is refined and perfected- this is to be done by hand (spray paint, and other materials) rather than a huge sticker as some would gather by responses on here!
Hope that helps?
I think the actual content of the mural ie some flags and the gates with the back of people's heads going into a stadium that's already full, will look shite, however way it is painted. For me a mural should pick a defining moment of the day, either the opening of the gates, the first goal scored, the plenty of shots pre match talk to the players, something like that. I feel like this is trying to pander to too many things at once, and the depicted "fans" are a far cry from who was actually there on the day
Whilst the picture is, as you say, somewhat ‘busy’ - the wall is reasonably large/long so will be less cramped in actuality!
I’m a little bemused as to what you mean by ‘fans being a far cry from who was actually there’… The mural shows/depicts Alwen who of course opened the gates. The straw hat lady (edit: Gwen King, Valley Party candidate) who was interviewed for several news pieces, as was the trombone/band player shown too (from 20:35, https://youtu.be/D4bKlYZWy1Y ) The rest ,show family’s and other demographics (rather than the stereotypical football fan) who were at The Valley that day- women, children and people of colour…
Why not show at least one "stereotypical football fan"?
It's great to show people representing different demographics, but why ignore the single biggest group of fans, without whom the club would probably have died in the wilderness years?
Can’t argue with that.
A lot of work has gone into this I’m sure, but hopefully a tweak isn’t out of the question?
Has it? Looks like a six year old knocked up in 5 minutes on his Commodore 64.
My problem is I'm not entirely sure from looking at it what the exact brief was. Are we celebrating the day itself, or how we managed to bring the day about? If we're celebrating the day itself, the Voice of the Valley/VIP/Mercury/Valley Gold bits feel shoe-horned in, and it comes across like one of those "can you find these things in this picture" puzzles. It's clunky and we'd be better off without them. If we're celebrating how we brought the day about, the references feel cursory and lacking in context. My overall impression is it falls between two stools.
Very unimpressed with the mural. But why does it have to be a mural? If the gat es to the ground could be designed along the lines of Liverpool FC (for example) - how spectacular and lasting that would be.
That’s the mural, been agreed with the ‘back to the valley’ celebration group- lead by Steve Sutherland.
It’ll be done in spray paint and actual paint- so a bit different and not so ‘picture’ based
Who’s on the Celebration group, Sam?
“A committee has been set up to oversee and deliver events throughout the season. Chaired by Steve Sutherland, Community Trust Ambassador and a former Charlton Athletic Commercial Director, it includes Fan Adviser Lucy Bishop, club legend Keith Peacock, club staff and Community Trust staff. Details about upcoming 30-year anniversary events will be announced in due course.”
Thank you.
The Celebration group need to have a rethink on this. No rush, just needs to be right
Same question to you as to @bobmunro. Help them out. What exactly would you suggest they should re-think?
Well as Mr Sutherland appears to be to head of the Celebration group, i would first of all advise him of this thread and then ask to him to speak to the supporters trust who are the fund raisers for this mural to sit down with a group of fans and ask what they would like.
I've met the artist and her work is much better than the image shown
Personally I would have gone with local lad Lionel Stanhope who has a good track record. I suggested his name but for whatever reason he wasn't chosen or available. His images are strong and the message clear.
The proposed image shown is far too busy with too much shoehorned in and reminds me of the saying "a camel is a horse designed by a Back to the Valley" committee".
It lacks focus or a clear message and fails in its key brief of commemorating the return to the Valley
I've met the artist and her work is much better than the image shown
Personally I would have gone with local lad Lionel Stanhope who has a good track record. I suggested his name but for whatever reason he wasn't chosen or available. His images are strong and the message clear.
The proposed image shown is far too busy with too much shoehorned in and reminds me of the saying "a camel is a horse designed by a Back to the Valley" committee".
It lacks focus or a clear message and fails in its key brief of commemorating the return to the Valley
Some/most times with public art, less is more
What's her name ? No disrespect but that example also looks like photoshop and quite a mish mash of ideas. Mr meana would have been a great option. He just painted a Liverpool themed mural for Steven Gerrards son
The museum tried this for the 25th anniversary but as Tony Keohane was leading on the project for the club it went nowhere after the initial drawings were submitted
Was unaware of her name, definitely recognize some of her work after looking. She's very talented, I think the main issue is that the design has a lot going on.
Was unaware of her name, definitely recognize some of her work after looking. She's very talented, I think the main issue is that the design has a lot going on.
Not as strongly anti as most, but it does seem a shame if a prominent, permanent feature of our ground just doesn’t hit the mark. And it’s very obvious that there is a risk this won’t given the feedback. Very much hope that belligerence doesn’t override here and stock can be taken.
Personality, I don’t like the shoe horned aspects to it and its overall stylisation just looks quite dated. This has just gone up on a wall in Perth to celebrate 4 Olympians to give an example of more model murals.
At the very least, I’d suggest a good starting point would be someone reaching out to @shine166 Who is an recognised contemporary artist and try and get his input and advice on taking forward. I suspect he’d have a hundred times more knowledge and contacts than any of the people who have been involved
@PragueAddick why are you so staunchly in it's corner? What do you think is great about the current mock up?
I tried to articulate what I like about it, but I don't think it is -yet - great. I've tried to explain that it seems to me reasonable that a mural works in a different way to the many photo based displays we already have, or the old painting which I put up earlier. I think many of the critical commentators expect something that ends up either as a photo or a another Terence Macklin painting.
It's Ok not to like it. I had to think about it a bit myself when I first saw it. But I'd like people to try and think a bit more about what they would like, and try and express it.
I've got a nasty feeling that it just may not be worth the bother.
Everyone who has posted on this thread thinks it is worth the bother.
You asked for ideas - specifically to me and to others, so here goes.
1. It needs to evoke deep emotion and by that I mean emotion welling up inside, wet eyes, and immense pride when walking to The Valley and seeing it. Every time it is seen, not just the first time.
2. The imagery doesn't need to be photographic - and can be argued that it shouldn't be. It needs to be simple, not overly complicated in trying to paste together a collage.
3. It should represent a single event - the most important event in our long history. It towers above Cup Finals, 7-6 victories, and play-off wins.
I would like to know what the brief was to the artist. How was she enlivened to the magnitude of the emotion?
I'm no artist but an image in my head right now is something like a stylistic representation of the gates from a distance away and slightly from above with the gates front and centre, The Valley spreading out above the gates and a swarming crowd moving towards and through the gates from below in the form of a chevron with the pinch point being the actual entrance. Not in detail, not photographic, more in the style of LS Lowry. Simple words top and centre of the mural, above the image of The Valley with just 'The Homecoming' or 'Coming Home' and the date bottom right '5 December 1992'.
No, not the same as this, and not as busy, but not dissimilar either.
Well, thanks for all the feedback and thanks for the constructive way it has in general been expressed.
Those of us who have been trying to move this project along clearly need to take stock. In order to have a chance of raising sufficient funds any design is going to need to inspire people and gain some sort of consensus around itself.
From the above comments it seems there are plenty of people who like the idea of a mural and quite a few who would be prepared to be involved in advising on design. Of course the difficulty in sitting down with a "group of fans" to find out what they want is (1) which fans and (2) you might just end up compiling even more varied opinions. Achieving a consensus might be a challenge but we wouldn't want to give up on it yet.
I suggest we take stock over the next few days in light of the helpful comments made above and try to come up with the best way to take this forward,
By the way, Lionel Stanhope was approached but he declined saying that it wasn't his area of expertise.
Comments
It's Ok not to like it. I had to think about it a bit myself when I first saw it. But I'd like people to try and think a bit more about what they would like, and try and express it.
I've got a nasty feeling that it just may not be worth the bother.
It will be great if we get it right.
I don't understand why the fans weren't/aren't allowed an opinion?
And what the fuck is DEI? I have no idea, and I fear I may regret asking.
I'd venture to suggest they would be the most agreed upon view.
Sorry for the lol, it just made me laugh that you thought the pre match daylight warm up was post match when it was of course pitch dark.
DE&I stands for diversity, equity and inclusion. As a discipline, DE&I is any policy or practice designed to make people of various backgrounds feel welcome.
I'm all for DEI where appropriate, but the proposal does not represent 5/12/92, which is surely the purpose.
I don’t think the mural is terrible at all, but it could be seen as a bit ‘chocolate boxy’.
Why are you suggesting "the fans" have not been able to express an opinion? Here is the thread, here you are, expressing your opinion...
It could be so much better.
You've read that I wasn't proposing a mural of any of "my photos" (is my understanding from what you said).
I said "I was just showing/reminding people of the reality of the day and not some DEI fake misrepresentation of the day".
I'm lost as to why you keep saying I think any of the photos would make a better mural, when I have clearly explained that is not my proposal and clearly explained what my proposal is.
The reason I said it felt like fans haven't been able to express an opinion is because of what CAST wrote -
"Charlton Athletic Supporters Trust (CAST) volunteered to take the project forward and have commissioned artist Katie Scott to design a celebratory mural (see digital representation above) to be painted at The Valley. The mural will be sited at the entrance to the stadium on the wall of the club shop opposite Valley Central. CAST are now managing the fundraising on behalf of the BTTV30 committee".
"We need to raise £5350 to bring the project to fruition. We have already received a pledge of £500 from Valley Gold so we are seeking a further £4850. We are hoping that we can reach this target by mid September so that Katie can complete the mural before the Reading game on October 21st. Please chip in what you can to ensure that future generations of Charlton fans never forget how the directors and supporters worked together against the odds to bring our club home.
You can contribute here:"
The funds are required by mid September so the mural can be completed by 21st October.
I may have missed CAST's request for fans views on what we would like, perhaps someone can direct me?
I see no request for fan's views, only a request for money.
It reads to me as a fait accompli, with funds needed quickly for completion in less than 2 months.
https://www.castrust.org/2023/08/help-fund-the-back-to-the-valley-mural/
Reuben Dangoor just did all the work for Arsenal and would be a great choice.
https://instagram.com/reubendangoor?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Personally I would have gone with local lad Lionel Stanhope who has a good track record. I suggested his name but for whatever reason he wasn't chosen or available. His images are strong and the message clear.
The proposed image shown is far too busy with too much shoehorned in and reminds me of the saying "a camel is a horse designed by a Back to the Valley" committee".
It lacks focus or a clear message and fails in its key brief of commemorating the return to the Valley
Some/most times with public art, less is more
https://instagram.com/meanastreetart?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Katie Scott
The museum tried this for the 25th anniversary but as Tony Keohane was leading on the project for the club it went nowhere after the initial drawings were submitted
At the very least, I’d suggest a good starting point would be someone reaching out to @shine166
Who is an recognised contemporary artist and try and get his input and advice on taking forward. I suspect he’d have a hundred times more knowledge and contacts than any of the people who have been involved
Those of us who have been trying to move this project along clearly need to take stock. In order to have a chance of raising sufficient funds any design is going to need to inspire people and gain some sort of consensus around itself.
From the above comments it seems there are plenty of people who like the idea of a mural and quite a few who would be prepared to be involved in advising on design. Of course the difficulty in sitting down with a "group of fans" to find out what they want is (1) which fans and (2) you might just end up compiling even more varied opinions. Achieving a consensus might be a challenge but we wouldn't want to give up on it yet.
I suggest we take stock over the next few days in light of the helpful comments made above and try to come up with the best way to take this forward,
By the way, Lionel Stanhope was approached but he declined saying that it wasn't his area of expertise.