I don't like to be negative, but I'm not impressed by the mural either.
Yes it's a mockup, but it lacks a bit of soul. It looks more like a poster Greenwich Council and the Community Trust would use to promote a family day at The Valley.
I wonder if it might have been better if the mural had just been based on an actual shot of Roger unlocking The Valley (from the ITV footage), with a banner around the outside highlighting those bodies involved in the return (VIP, VOTV, Valley Gold etc) rather than having them as artificial looking flags?
Various commissions were sought, all very lifeless and ‘off the shelf’ when compared to other clubs and their murals/wall art.
this mural of course is to celebrate BTTV, but as a on going reminder that The Valley is our home and that people of all backgrounds walk through those gates every Saturday/Tuesday!
Ideally it was designed to be timeless, and not limited to a specific date/season - specially considering BTTV celebrations were held in 2023 despite 30 years being in 2022!!
I don't think this hybrid concept works mate.
It's either a mural commemorating BTTV (which in itself would be timeless, as that occasion will live forever), or it's a general mural representing Charlton Athletic FC as a whole, in which case it needs to be ENTIRELY different and feature things like the 47 cup, the play off finals, club legends across a century etc.
Sticking a couple of anonymous women and BAME people on a (bad) BTTV mural in an attempt to represent a x-section of society does not make it timeless. It makes it look awkward and designed by a cheap PR company who have never set foot in SE London.
EDIT: sorry to be negative, and just to be clear I think the idea of the BTTV mural in general is brilliant and fully in support of that so good work to those involved for instigating the idea!
I think people above are asking for a painting which does the same job as a photograph. That already exists, the artist's name is Terence Macklin. I have a print on the wall here, as must a fair few of you. Sorry there was no way to avoid flash glare. It faithfully reproduces a moment in the game, around 4.30 on a December afternoon. It's dark. It shows how temporary was the state of the Valley. The crowd is a distant blur.
The mural is using artistic licence to try to capture the human joy we all felt and want to remember, so it seems to me right to depict a glorious sunny day, full of primary colours and the Valley stands stylised rather than showing up how decrepit/temporary they all were - because after all we all helped to fix them up and create today's Valley - but to depict today's Valley would also be daft. As for the people, I think it's appropriate that only Roger Alwen's face is recognisable, and his huge joyous smile is surely one that he's posthumously entitled to have depicted. But for example the lady in the hat is obviously inspired by a lady who appeared in the pre-match TV interviews (Gwen King, as I am now reminded). Let's face it, if for example it recognisably depicted Rick, some people would go into cardiac arrest. 🤣 Much better to just keep it anonymous, a general statement. It was a day for everyone, wasn't it? In terms of age, gender, skin colour? The Charlton tribe, returning home, where it would develop a reputation as one of the best and earliest "community clubs"?
I'm sure the comments will be taken on board, but people should also consider that murals are not playing the same role as photographs. We have plenty of photographs. Murals try to capture the essence of human emotion around the subject matter.
My first reaction was about how crude and primitive the mural looks. The Seb mural works for me because it seems to me to have artistry, artistic credibility and craft. It invites a response in my opinion.
I looked up a little bit of something regarding a work of art and aesthetic impact and found this:
The three aesthetic theories of art criticism are most commonly referred to as Imitationalism, Formalism, and Emotionalism. on realistic representation. of art using the principles of art. a response of feelings, moods, or emotions in the viewer.
I don't think the proposed mural scores more than a 3/10 in any aesthetic area.
I think people above are asking for a painting which does the same job as a photograph. That already exists, the artist's name is Terence Macklin. I have a print on the wall here, as must a fair few of you. Sorry there was no way to avoid flash glare. It faithfully reproduces a moment in the game, around 4.30 on a December afternoon. It's dark. It shows how temporary was the state of the Valley. The crowd is a distant blur.
The mural is using artistic licence to try to capture the human joy we all felt and want to remember, so it seems to me right to depict a glorious sunny day, full of primary colours and the Valley stands stylised rather than showing up how decrepit/temporary they all were - because after all we all helped to fix them up and create today's Valley - but to depict today's Valley would also be daft. As for the people, I think it's appropriate that only Roger Alwen's face is recognisable, and his huge joyous smile is surely one that he's posthumously entitled to have depicted. But for example the lady in the hat is obviously inspired by a lady who appeared in the pre-match TV interviews. Let's face it, if for example it recognisably depicted Rick, some people would go into cardiac arrest. 🤣 Much better to just keep it anonymous, a general statement. It was a day for everyone, wasn't it? In terms of age, gender, skin colour? The Charlton tribe, returning home, where it would develop a reputation as one of the best and earliest "community clubs"?
I'm sure the comments will be taken on board, but people should also consider that murals are not playing the same role as photographs. We have plenty of photographs. Murals try to capture the essence of human emotion around the subject matter.
I wouldn't want a copy of a photograph but it must at least take you back to that most famous of days. The mural, as depicted, doesn't go close to doing that.
If you're looking to get a lot of different stuff in, and it's going on a massive wall, why not make it look more like a newspaper or a comic strip even? The paper or magazine or whatever in question can be depicted as being printed on 5th December 1992, and can pick out 3 or 4 different things. Fans turning up as the gates are opened, the balloons at the start of the game, the goal scored, and then another set of fans leaving happy, and incorporated into that you have little bits of the historic event picked out within the larger mural
Is that mural representation created by the artists who are going to paint it? If so I’d be interested to see some of their finished work to get a feel for the style that the final thing will be. This is obviously a quick photoshop generated “mock-up” of the intended final art, at least I hope it is. Be interested who they commissioned to do this, the composition and story does feel a bit weak for such a pivotal day in Charltons history.
I'm sure the comments will be taken on board, but people should also consider that murals are not playing the same role as photographs. We have plenty of photographs. Murals try to capture the essence of human emotion around the subject matter.
Yes but the mural DOES NOT capture the essence of human emotion on the day. It doesn't even begin to capture it. It's bloody awful and I am a CAST member and have been for donkeys years. My opinion has nothing to do with the Trust and everything to do with an awful mural. CAST love a poll, so if they are certain that the supporters will love this I suggest it's time for another poll.
That’s the mural, been agreed with the ‘back to the valley’ celebration group- lead by Steve Sutherland.
It’ll be done in spray paint and actual paint- so a bit different and not so ‘picture’ based
Who’s on the Celebration group, Sam?
“A committee has been set up to oversee and deliver events throughout the season. Chaired by Steve Sutherland, Community Trust Ambassador and a former Charlton Athletic Commercial Director, it includes Fan Adviser Lucy Bishop, club legend Keith Peacock, club staff and Community Trust staff. Details about upcoming 30-year anniversary events will be announced in due course.”
Thank you.
The Celebration group need to have a rethink on this. No rush, just needs to be right
I think people above are asking for a painting which does the same job as a photograph. That already exists, the artist's name is Terence Macklin. I have a print on the wall here, as must a fair few of you. Sorry there was no way to avoid flash glare. It faithfully reproduces a moment in the game, around 4.30 on a December afternoon. It's dark. It shows how temporary was the state of the Valley. The crowd is a distant blur.
The mural is using artistic licence to try to capture the human joy we all felt and want to remember, so it seems to me right to depict a glorious sunny day, full of primary colours and the Valley stands stylised rather than showing up how decrepit/temporary they all were - because after all we all helped to fix them up and create today's Valley - but to depict today's Valley would also be daft. As for the people, I think it's appropriate that only Roger Alwen's face is recognisable, and his huge joyous smile is surely one that he's posthumously entitled to have depicted. But for example the lady in the hat is obviously inspired by a lady who appeared in the pre-match TV interviews (Gwen King, as I am now reminded). Let's face it, if for example it recognisably depicted Rick, some people would go into cardiac arrest. 🤣 Much better to just keep it anonymous, a general statement. It was a day for everyone, wasn't it? In terms of age, gender, skin colour? The Charlton tribe, returning home, where it would develop a reputation as one of the best and earliest "community clubs"?
I'm sure the comments will be taken on board, but people should also consider that murals are not playing the same role as photographs. We have plenty of photographs. Murals try to capture the essence of human emotion around the subject matter.
I remember that picture from when it came out and there's no doubt it's a great piece of art.
But I would disagree that "It faithfully reproduces a moment in the game, around 4.30 on a December afternoon."
The OCD part of me could never help thinking that what is depicted is Darren Pitcher's "great turn, for a player of such limited ability", which led directly to Walsh's goal, which was of course down the other end and not in the south east corner flag.
Sorry if that spoils the, otherwise great, picture for anyone, but it always used to bug me at the time and seeing it again has brought the memories flooding back!
If you're looking to get a lot of different stuff in, and it's going on a massive wall, why not make it look more like a newspaper or a comic strip even? The paper or magazine or whatever in question can be depicted as being printed on 5th December 1992, and can pick out 3 or 4 different things. Fans turning up as the gates are opened, the balloons at the start of the game, the goal scored, and then another set of fans leaving happy, and incorporated into that you have little bits of the historic event picked out within the larger mural
Budapest has a fantastic wall size mural in newspaper form about the Hungary England 6-3.
I think people above are asking for a painting which does the same job as a photograph. That already exists, the artist's name is Terence Macklin. I have a print on the wall here, as must a fair few of you. Sorry there was no way to avoid flash glare. It faithfully reproduces a moment in the game, around 4.30 on a December afternoon. It's dark. It shows how temporary was the state of the Valley. The crowd is a distant blur.
The mural is using artistic licence to try to capture the human joy we all felt and want to remember, so it seems to me right to depict a glorious sunny day, full of primary colours and the Valley stands stylised rather than showing up how decrepit/temporary they all were - because after all we all helped to fix them up and create today's Valley - but to depict today's Valley would also be daft. As for the people, I think it's appropriate that only Roger Alwen's face is recognisable, and his huge joyous smile is surely one that he's posthumously entitled to have depicted. But for example the lady in the hat is obviously inspired by a lady who appeared in the pre-match TV interviews (Gwen King, as I am now reminded). Let's face it, if for example it recognisably depicted Rick, some people would go into cardiac arrest. 🤣 Much better to just keep it anonymous, a general statement. It was a day for everyone, wasn't it? In terms of age, gender, skin colour? The Charlton tribe, returning home, where it would develop a reputation as one of the best and earliest "community clubs"?
I'm sure the comments will be taken on board, but people should also consider that murals are not playing the same role as photographs. We have plenty of photographs. Murals try to capture the essence of human emotion around the subject matter.
I remember that picture from when it came out and there's no doubt it's a great piece of art.
But I would disagree that "It faithfully reproduces a moment in the game, around 4.30 on a December afternoon."
The OCD part of me could never help thinking that what is depicted is Darren Pitcher's "great turn, for a player of such limited ability", which led directly to Walsh's goal, which was of course down the other end and not in the south east corner flag.
Sorry if that spoils the, otherwise great, picture for anyone, but it always used to bug me at the time and seeing it again has brought the memories flooding back!
Actually I too had exactly that thought. But I assumed he'd been working off a photo. Which leads to the slightly unsettling thought that Darren Pitcher turned his man a second time in the game. Which is obviously a preposterous idea 🤣
Awful, just embarrassing. Is this a school project for the under 10's ? If we need a reminder of that great day what would be better than a large photo of Roger Alwen opening the gates.
Why are a very small number of fans deciding on this ?
That’s the mural, been agreed with the ‘back to the valley’ celebration group- lead by Steve Sutherland.
It’ll be done in spray paint and actual paint- so a bit different and not so ‘picture’ based
Who’s on the Celebration group, Sam?
“A committee has been set up to oversee and deliver events throughout the season. Chaired by Steve Sutherland, Community Trust Ambassador and a former Charlton Athletic Commercial Director, it includes Fan Adviser Lucy Bishop, club legend Keith Peacock, club staff and Community Trust staff. Details about upcoming 30-year anniversary events will be announced in due course.”
Thank you.
The Celebration group need to have a rethink on this. No rush, just needs to be right
Same question to you as to @bobmunro. Help them out. What exactly would you suggest they should re-think?
In 1993, I won a Junior Reds drawing competition, with the prize being the picture framed and hung in boardroom of The Valley (I think it was there) and a free match day ticket. I’m confident the likely badly drawn picture back then from a 9 year old was more inspiring and evocative of our club than the initial design of this mural.
I very much hope the design is rethought, as even within 3 pages of this thread, there’s some excellent ideas for improvements.
If you're looking to get a lot of different stuff in, and it's going on a massive wall, why not make it look more like a newspaper or a comic strip even? The paper or magazine or whatever in question can be depicted as being printed on 5th December 1992, and can pick out 3 or 4 different things. Fans turning up as the gates are opened, the balloons at the start of the game, the goal scored, and then another set of fans leaving happy, and incorporated into that you have little bits of the historic event picked out within the larger mural
Budapest has a fantastic wall size mural in newspaper form about the Hungary England 6-3.
I don't like it. It is literally a load of blown-up newspaper cuttings stuck on a wall. What we used to stick up on a board in a school classroom. Zero aesthetic merit, zero creative input. But entirely in keeping with the surroundings.
I don't like to be negative, but I'm not impressed by the mural either.
Yes it's a mockup, but it lacks a bit of soul. It looks more like a poster Greenwich Council and the Community Trust would use to promote a family day at The Valley.
I wonder if it might have been better if the mural had just been based on an actual shot of Roger unlocking The Valley (from the ITV footage), with a banner around the outside highlighting those bodies involved in the return (VIP, VOTV, Valley Gold etc) rather than having them as artificial looking flags?
Various commissions were sought, all very lifeless and ‘off the shelf’ when compared to other clubs and their murals/wall art.
So what did the committee settle on? The least worst? Or is this their own design? It does have some of the characteristics of having been designed by a committee, with each member insisting their "must have" is included!
30 years after the event, even with the past 10 years of mediocracy to lower my expectations, I would have hoped for something to raise my spirits - and this singularly fails. I am very disappointed by this mock-up, and struggle to see how it will be better in its final form. I would rather have a blank wall than something this mediocre.
I think the committee needs to go back to the drawing board, reconsider the brief they are giving to potential artists, and try again. Then maybe present a shortlist rather than a done deal, to give some "ownership" to the fans who are going to be asked to pay for it?
Really we should be thankful for this as the mural they voted into second place was a life size portrait of Steve Sunderland with his trousers around his ankles gurning on a portakabin toilet….
I assume you are saying, turn that into a painting?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
No, I was just showing/reminding people of the reality of the day and not some DEI fake misrepresentation of the day.
I think a mural of Roger Alwen & the fans coming through the gates would be best or perhaps Colin Walsh's goal. They are the 2 obvious stand outs to represent the day in perpetuity.
Nearly everyone fondly remember's those 2 things, the proposed mural evokes next to nothing.
Comments
It's either a mural commemorating BTTV (which in itself would be timeless, as that occasion will live forever), or it's a general mural representing Charlton Athletic FC as a whole, in which case it needs to be ENTIRELY different and feature things like the 47 cup, the play off finals, club legends across a century etc.
Sticking a couple of anonymous women and BAME people on a (bad) BTTV mural in an attempt to represent a x-section of society does not make it timeless. It makes it look awkward and designed by a cheap PR company who have never set foot in SE London.
EDIT: sorry to be negative, and just to be clear I think the idea of the BTTV mural in general is brilliant and fully in support of that so good work to those involved for instigating the idea!
I think it went out for a throw actually.
The mural is using artistic licence to try to capture the human joy we all felt and want to remember, so it seems to me right to depict a glorious sunny day, full of primary colours and the Valley stands stylised rather than showing up how decrepit/temporary they all were - because after all we all helped to fix them up and create today's Valley - but to depict today's Valley would also be daft. As for the people, I think it's appropriate that only Roger Alwen's face is recognisable, and his huge joyous smile is surely one that he's posthumously entitled to have depicted. But for example the lady in the hat is obviously inspired by a lady who appeared in the pre-match TV interviews (Gwen King, as I am now reminded). Let's face it, if for example it recognisably depicted Rick, some people would go into cardiac arrest. 🤣 Much better to just keep it anonymous, a general statement. It was a day for everyone, wasn't it? In terms of age, gender, skin colour? The Charlton tribe, returning home, where it would develop a reputation as one of the best and earliest "community clubs"?
I'm sure the comments will be taken on board, but people should also consider that murals are not playing the same role as photographs. We have plenty of photographs. Murals try to capture the essence of human emotion around the subject matter.
The Seb mural works for me because it seems to me to have artistry, artistic credibility and craft. It invites a response in my opinion.
I looked up a little bit of something regarding a work of art and aesthetic impact and found this:
I don't think the proposed mural scores more than a 3/10 in any aesthetic area.
It doesn't even begin to capture it.
It's bloody awful and I am a CAST member and have been for donkeys years.
My opinion has nothing to do with the Trust and everything to do with an awful mural.
CAST love a poll, so if they are certain that the supporters will love this I suggest it's time for another poll.
The Celebration group need to have a rethink on this. No rush, just needs to be right
But I would disagree that "It faithfully reproduces a moment in the game, around 4.30 on a December afternoon."
The OCD part of me could never help thinking that what is depicted is Darren Pitcher's "great turn, for a player of such limited ability", which led directly to Walsh's goal, which was of course down the other end and not in the south east corner flag.
Sorry if that spoils the, otherwise great, picture for anyone, but it always used to bug me at the time and seeing it again has brought the memories flooding back!
Why are a very small number of fans deciding on this ?
How would anyone know that this is anything other than the end of a routine football match?
30 years after the event, even with the past 10 years of mediocracy to lower my expectations, I would have hoped for something to raise my spirits - and this singularly fails. I am very disappointed by this mock-up, and struggle to see how it will be better in its final form. I would rather have a blank wall than something this mediocre.
I think the committee needs to go back to the drawing board, reconsider the brief they are giving to potential artists, and try again. Then maybe present a shortlist rather than a done deal, to give some "ownership" to the fans who are going to be asked to pay for it?
I think a mural of Roger Alwen & the fans coming through the gates would be best or perhaps Colin Walsh's goal.
They are the 2 obvious stand outs to represent the day in perpetuity.
Nearly everyone fondly remember's those 2 things, the proposed mural evokes next to nothing.