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Grand National 2023

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  • Thanks @PeanutsMolloy, having followed last years thread and made a little profit from your model. I am delighted that you once again are sharing it with us. I do love the way you show your workings and find it all quite fascinating. I am very grateful to you for this and am already looking forward to the race.
  • Nice one peanuts.
  • Thanks Peanuts. Very insightful and an interesting read
  • edited March 2023
    BTW, if anyone is interested in pedigrees, this is a very useful site.
    You have to subscribe if you want to see more than 5 Generations and some of the more esoteric analysis but 5 Generations is free.
  • edited March 2023
    Actually I strongly fancy Pencilfulloflead to go really well today and have put a couple of bob on him, which would hopefully hedge a fall in his current 33/1 GN price should he do so.
    Will be glued to Fairyhouse during half-time today.
    Sadly, Farclas a NR.
    Change of plan - cashed out most of the win bet today and made Pencilfulloflead my first GN e/w bet this year at 33/1 (5 places, 1/5).
    With other GN candidates short enough, I don't want to risk his price collapsing if he goes conspicuously well today and it will add to the misery if he near-misses and today's bet's a loser.
    Even if he doesn't, he's got at the very least a strong place profile on Soft and you just can't predict how the ground will come up at Aintree. If they feel they need to water extensively, any unexpected drop of late rain could turn it on the softer side.
    Will do a write up on him after today's race.
    Currently 40-1 on Paddypower (anti post, 1/5, 5 places)
  • meldrew66 said:
    Actually I strongly fancy Pencilfulloflead to go really well today and have put a couple of bob on him, which would hopefully hedge a fall in his current 33/1 GN price should he do so.
    Will be glued to Fairyhouse during half-time today.
    Sadly, Farclas a NR.
    Change of plan - cashed out most of the win bet today and made Pencilfulloflead my first GN e/w bet this year at 33/1 (5 places, 1/5).
    With other GN candidates short enough, I don't want to risk his price collapsing if he goes conspicuously well today and it will add to the misery if he near-misses and today's bet's a loser.
    Even if he doesn't, he's got at the very least a strong place profile on Soft and you just can't predict how the ground will come up at Aintree. If they feel they need to water extensively, any unexpected drop of late rain could turn it on the softer side.
    Will do a write up on him after today's race.
    Currently 40-1 on Paddypower (anti post, 1/5, 5 places)
    And on Bob's lot too
  • edited March 2023
    I've just realised 6 of the 15 on my Long List are Elliott's and 4 belong to the Git. What a pisser. 
    Oh well, gotta stay objective.

    More anon.
  • I've just realised 6 of the 15 on my Long List are Elliott's and 4 belong to the Git. What a pisser. 
    Oh well, gotta stay objective.

    More anon.
    Sadly very difficult to avoid them. Spent my life trying to do so with other trainers too (invariably because their strike rate was poor and who would be on the cold list for long periods) and invariably that only ended up putting me off the winner! I have a blind spot in particular for home trainers such as the likes of Mickey Hammond, John Jenkins and Simon Dow for example.

    Equally, horses from the Henderson and Nicholls stables are always put in shorter and over bet more than their form warrants. Most of my successes have been based on unexposed up and coming trainers (such as Harry Derham currently but, because of his connections, that won't last for long) before they come to the attention of anyone else and trainers with lesser strings who can still train - currently Sandy Thompson, Laura Morgan and Sam England to name but three for example.
  • Peanuts... How does Cheltenham affect your model? Do you see it as a negative if a horse is entered there. I prefer to back a horse that has been aimed specifically at Aintree.
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  • edited March 2023
    Peanuts... How does Cheltenham affect your model? Do you see it as a negative if a horse is entered there. I prefer to back a horse that has been aimed specifically at Aintree.
    Good question @RobinKeepsBobbin
    Sorry to be slow replying - bit of a long day.

    It’s a tricky one.
    Instinctively I tend to agree with you, especially when it’s the customary 3 week gap. This year, fortunately, it’s 4 of course.
    Would Hedgehunter have won back to back GNs if he hadn’t gone so close to winning the Gold Cup in 2006? Who knows but Ruby reported he hadn’t travelled as well in the GN as he had in 2005.
    Did his XC win cost Cause Of Causes the 2017 GN? Maybe.
    But there are plenty of examples of horses running, even winning and/or having hard races at Cheltenham and still doing the business in a GN.
    Dont Push It, Many Clouds and Noble Yeats all had relatively quiet spins at the Festival before GN wins but Silver Birch and Pineau De Re had hard fought finishes prior to theirs and Tiger of course won both times pre Aintree - different gravy though.
    The truth is it depends a lot on the horse and the seriousness with which it’s ridden. You want a horse to have decent race workout (that’s simply not replicable on the gallops) but preferably avoid a hard fought finish.
    I’d usually mainly be worried for the serious Gold Cup contenders and runners that are involved at the finish of the 30f Nov chase, which always takes a bit if recovering from.
    But, as I say, this year the 4 week gap is a big help.

    As for the model specifically, it doesn't treat a run at the Festival as a negative.
    I did once look at having a screen for horses that had a hard race <28 days but it’s blooming difficult creating an objective definition of that.
    The model’s tests have to be objectively applied.
    Obviously I can and do overlay my subjective views on the list it generates, as I may have to do this time when deciding which runners to back but I screwed up declining to back Bless The Wings e/w in 2018 because he’d run in the Irish GN 12 days prior. The model rated him Place Potential and he came 3rd at 40/1. I usually screw up when deciding to ignore the model!

    Which raises another point.
    Stats-wise every race is a new piece of data for the model’s assessment but, depending on the horse's existing CV, a run at the Festival may or may not make a difference to its rating.
    The tweaks I've introduced to it over the last few years were designed to try to give more certainty prior to weights and the Festival and it worked really well last 2 years - less so this.
    As I'll explain this week when I give a summary of each of the 15 on my Long List, some like The Big Breakaway and Mr Incredible just need to have a safe spin from the model's point of view - their ratings are already set as Winning Calibre, providing they have a final prep to blow away the cobwebs.
    But there are several on the Long List running in the XC and the Gold Cup that could materially elevate their stat-ratings with a strong run.
    Ditto Farclas and/or Death Duty if running well in the Leinster Nat on 12 March.

    And then there's betting strategy. Of course, if any win their price is going to crash so it's a tricky issue both whether and when to put the money down.
    Usually I find the Law of Sod applies and if I back a definite GN pick prior to Cheltenham it'll run a stinker and drift. And vice versa, of course.
    The model picked out Tiger in 2018 but I waited, not expecting to win the XC. When he did, he was too short I thought to back for the GN.
    UGH!!!!! 2018 really was a disaster for me thinking I knew better than my model.
    This year, as prices are already shortish for those on my radar screen, I've decided to back The Big Breakaway prior to the Ultima and, probably, will do so for at least 1 other. 

    Sorry for the length of this. Hope that sort of answers your question - let me know if not.
  • edited March 2023

    Time to take a closer look at the 15 on the model's Long List.

    Before doing so, a quick summary of the ideal standard we're looking for profile-wise, assuming a typical range of stat-ratings among the runners (as noted, we may or may not have this this year):

    1. Up to 2 fails (max) of the 11 Initial Tests (0 of the “Golden” Tests) AND

    2. At least 1 Plus (for Winning Calibre at least 2, incl at least 1 Pedigree Plus) 


    Allowing also for preferred going, back-testing these profiles 2013~22:

    67 runners (18.8%, on average 7~8 per race) met at least the Place Potential criteria. They contributed:
    1st~5th: all 45
    6th: 4
    F/UR/BD: 9
    Unplaced/PU: 9

    In other words, 67% (2 in 3) of the 67 with a frame-making stat-profile did so.

    48 runners (13.5%, on average c. 5 per race) met the Winning Calibre criteria. They contributed:
    Winners: 9
    2nd: 8
    3rd: 8
    4th: 9 
    5th: 4
    F/UR/BD: 5
    Unplaced/PU: 5

    In other words, 79% (4 in 5) of the 48 with a Winning Calibre stat-profile made the frame, c. 1 in 5 of them winning. 

    BUT please note these are back-tested results of the tweaked model - NOT actual results of the prevailing models each year (though the actual models have helped me make a profit in 14 of the last 16 GNs - one of the losing years literally by a nostril hair in 2012)

    The model is NOT a crystal ball 
    but always work-in-progress because, as sure as eggs is eggs, it will continue to get it wrong to a greater or lesser extent. 

    So please don't bet more than you can afford to lose.


    To be continued: ........
  • edited March 2023

    One observation I'd like to make about a big weight, that may apply particularly for the 2023 GN.

    With Noble Yeats fav and 2 with topweight at 16~20/1, it’s easy to overlook the stats that weigh very heavily against GN runners with >11.06, of which there may be as many as 7 this year.

    Two points re the 2023 GN:

    1. We have the extra 2lbs for the topweight (now 11-12), not seen since 2008 (pre-course and fence changes). Bottom weight remains at 10-00 and we’ll likely see runners with 10-00 this year. So the 2023 GN will see the widest absolute weight-range (26lbs) of any GN since 2004 (4lbs higher than the average weight range in that time). 

    2. In another way, notwithstanding the course changes, we’ve returned to that era because, also, compression of the weights is de facto finished. GNORs were once the prevailing ORs of the runners but from 2000 the BHA handicapper (then Phil Smith) was given permission to adjust the GNORs at his discretion. He would occasionally “up” the OR of low-rated course specialists to make sure they made the cut but he’d also “compress” the GN handicap by allotting as many as 7 of the highest-rated entries (without course form) in a single race a GNOR up to 7lbs below their prevailing OR.This was, of course, to try to encourage winners and thus more entries from “higher quality” horses.

    So, when Many Clouds won with 11-09 in 2015, his GNOR160 had been compressed by 5lbs. He beat Saint Are by 2L but (regardless of the rights or wrongs), without that 5lb gift, IMO not only would he not have won but, with virtually every other runner carrying 2~4lbs less (as he’d have run as joint top weight off 165), he may even have struggled to be placed.

    In any event, though some have occasionally made the frame, the fact is until Any Second Now (clearly a lover of the course) near-missed with 11.08 last year, Many Clouds was the ONLY runner with >11.06 to win or near-miss (<5L) in 37 GN renewals since Red Rum’s 3rd win in 1977.

    With Smith retiring in 2018, while handicapper-discretion remains for the GN weights (much to Michael O’Leary’s and now Ted Walsh’s more understandable annoyance), “compression” is now minimal.

    Only 1 runner this year has any weight concession (joint topweight Conflated by 1lb). In fact, like all the other Irish entries, Galvin (11-11) has been given an extra 1lb on his current Irish mark.

    Those of a certain vintage will recall the pre-Compression years to 2000 and the annual mantra that echoed until 2009 when Mon Mome kicked off a run of 4 successive winners with 11.00~11.06: “you can put a line through anything with 11 stone or more” (more correctly it was >11.06).

    No doubt I’m guaranteeing a topweight victory in 2023 by saying this, and maybe the post-2012 changes over time will be proven to have made life easier for runners with big weights (I’m doubtful), but a comparable mantra may be due for a comeback.


  • edited March 2023
    4 scratched at today’s Forfeit Stage:

    Ash Tree Meadow
    Burrows Saint
    Frontal Assault
    Sporting John 

    Also with a re-ordering of the groups on the same GNOR, updated by current OR, Mr Incredible is now #44 (top of the 5 with GNOR145) - 99% sure to get a run.
  • edited March 2023
    Sure enough, lots of double entries for both Aintree and Irish GN (5 days earlier) incl Mr Incredible, Pencilfulloflead & Dunboyne

    Conflated
    Galvin
    Fury Road
    Royale Pagailles
    Franco De Port
    Carefully Selected
    Delta Work
    Gaillard Du Mesnil
    Lifetime Ambition
    Longhouse Poet
    Coko Beach
    Pencilfulloflead
    Darasso
    Diol Ker
    Farclas
    Ain't That A Shame
    Lord Lariat
    Velvet Elvis
    A Wave Of The Sea
    Mr Incredible
    Gabbys Cross
    Ashtown lad
    Recite A Prayer
    Death Duty
    Dunboyne
    Punitive
    Defi Bleu
    Gevrey
    Milan Native
    Capt Kangaroo
    Fakiera
    Darrens Hope
  • Another 1 of the Long List eliminated.
    FARCLAS not confirmed for Sunday's Leinster National and, without Festival entries, time's run out for him to achieve the necessary profile (and indeed prove his wellbeing) prior to the GN.
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  • Outstanding stuff, Peanuts.

    Take a bow gif 3  GIF Images Download
  • I've backed Galvin at silly odds (non runner, cash back) e/w for the C G C .. he's also in for the Irish and the proper Nationals .. about time he won or placed in a big one 
  • I've backed Galvin at silly odds (non runner, cash back) e/w for the C G C .. he's also in for the Irish and the proper Nationals .. about time he won or placed in a big one 
    He's second fav for the x country on the Wednesday and by all accounts will run in that. Would like him myself for the GN if he shows up well. Apparently been running previously with a back issue which is now sorted. Class horse who stays well.  Will leave it to the master @PeanutsMolloy to assess him fully
  • BertieB said:
    I've backed Galvin at silly odds (non runner, cash back) e/w for the C G C .. he's also in for the Irish and the proper Nationals .. about time he won or placed in a big one 
    He's second fav for the x country on the Wednesday and by all accounts will run in that. Would like him myself for the GN if he shows up well. Apparently been running previously with a back issue which is now sorted. Class horse who stays well. 
    Cheers for the kind compliment but you’ve summed him up perfectly.
    Serious candidate.
    Run down on him and all the others on my radar screen I haven’t yet gassed on about by the end of the week.

  • edited March 2023

    I’m going to start running through those we haven’t yet covered on the Long List. I’ll dribble them out over the next few days to avoid an avalanche of info.

    As noted before, this is a funny old year. The weight structure seems to make it a throw-back to the early- or even pre-Compression era and it’s 16 years since there were as few early “definites” for my team.

    Quantity and proven staying quality of the entries is poor, perhaps because of which I can’t recall there being so many running at the Festival that still can (and need to) elevate their stat-profiles to Winning or Place potential. Usually there’s 4 or (at tops) 5 – next week there’s 8. So, without a Festival crystal ball, value assessments are particularly relevant.

    Let’s start with one whose profile is set and has some appeal but at the price is unlikely to make my team:


    GAILLARD DU MESNIL (7yo, 11-00, 16/1) #19 in the Weights

    Stat-profile: Minor Place Potential

    Change potential: no

    Likely Prep: 30f Nov Chase

    Ground pref: indifferent

    Parallel: Burrows Saint

    • 2nd season chaser Plus, still a novice
    • Gr 1 winner over hurdles and fences but best chase form when 5L 3rd to L’Homme Presse (Ahoy Senor 2nd) at levels in the Gr1 Brown Advisory at last year’s Festival, followed a month later by an eye-catching, keeping-on 3rd (7L) under 11-08 in the Irish GN – his only handicap chase to date (OR154 - relatively well-treated with GNOR155)
    • Highly consistent, 1st or 2nd in all 5 hurdles and making the frame 7 of 8 chases, incl all 3 at 24f+ (1 win).
    • Pedigree similar to stablemate, Irish GN winner & GN 4th Burrows Saint – both sired by Saint Des Saints, whose progeny don’t have great record as yet at 4m+, Burrows Saint’s 4th (but emptying badly by the last) being the only frame-maker in 11 attempts, 6 in the GN (5 different sons, only 1 other completing)
    • Can easily see him matching Burrows with a minor place but a win looks improbable, so 16/1 isn’t tempting.
    Not part of the model’s reckoning but maybe worth noting. His most likely engagement next week is as odds-on fav in the 30f Nov chase. The record of that typically-gruelling race (with "enthusiastic" Amateur jocks) in terms of immediate follow-ups in Nationals, has been poor down the years, both as a 4m contest and thus far over 30f (last 3 renewals). 

    In the last 9 years, 12 that finished in the first 4 have run in a follow-up National within 6 weeks (2 at Aintree). Only 4 have completed (best 6th) and even Tiger PU’d 34 days later at Fairyhouse. 2 have done so in the last 3 years (Run Wild Fred, F at 8th in GN, and Escaria Ten, PU in Irish).

    Nothing’s impossible but it’s a race that tends to take its toll, at least in the short term.

  • edited March 2023

    Now let’s talk about the Heavyweights. A few stats to chew on:

    As noted earlier, while they have made the frame, only 1 horse has carried >11.06 to win a GN since Red Rum in 1977.

    That was Many Clouds in 2015 with 11-09, whose winning margin was 2L but whose GNOR was set 5lb lower than his OR prevailing at weights day - reflecting a handicapping policy that is no more.

    That said, Any Second Now (11-08) was beaten last year by only 2L, reflecting an evident capability for previous GN winners and near-missers to make the frame again despite that burden (Montys Pass, Hedgehunter and Don’t Push It also doing so). But, Many Clouds aside, only Any Second Now and Hedgehunter have borne 11-07+ and finished within 10L of the winner since The Thinker (7L 3rd) in 1989.

    This is relevant to 3 on the Long List: Conflated (11-12), Noble Yeats and Galvin (both 11-11).

    Let’s add another stat (probably not applicable to Galvin):

    Only 1 horse has ever completed a Gold Cup & GN same-season double, the legendary Golden Miller in 1934, though Garrison Savannah came agonisingly within 5L of matching him, headed after The Elbow, in 1991 (carrying 11-01 at Aintree).

    But, though others have near-missed, Many Clouds (again) is the only horse just to even have a final spin in the Gold Cup (24L 6th) before winning a GN since Rough Quest did so in 1996; close 2nd in the GC and thrown in at Aintree with only 10-07 and a youthful Fitzy on his back.

    There are more examples since 2000 of GC runners placing in the ensuing GN (Anibale Fly twice, My Will and Hedgehunter, famously 2nd in both 22 days apart, Royal Auclair and Whats Up Boys) but only Hedgehunter did so with as much as 11-12 on his back at Aintree.

    Put the 2 stats together and, especially if he were involved in a hard finish at Cheltenham, it’s a huge ask for CONFLATED (9yo, 11-12, 20/1 NRNB), Elliott’s GC hope, to win at Aintree and even though, like Many Clouds, he’d benefit from a 29-day recovery-time this year, he’s by no means committed to run in the GN (Elliott saying at weights’ unveiling: it might be a year too early”)

    If he does line up:

    - He has a GN-strong double Pedigree Plus:

          o Sire Yeats (same as Noble Yeats) – 3 wins and 2 places for offspring at 31.5f+ from 19 attempts

          o Damsire Presenting and DS2 Strong Gale a powerful combo with many GN connections and identical to Rathvinden and DS3 Choral Society was Miinnehoma’s damsire.

    - His stat-profile is a tad short of the necessary for any runner carrying even 11.03+, thus his rating is 3 fails [1 Golden]

    - A 3rd season chaser (twice Gr 1 winner at 3m and best RPR172) the Catch 22 is that he can only elevate his GN profile to Winning Calibre by being there or thereabouts in the 26.5f Blue-Riband. Who knows whether that would make it more or less likely he heads for the GN?

    He's very much got the Pedigree of a GN winner (even very distantly related to Grittar and Maori Venture) but, at 20/1 for the only NRNB quote for this April, the combination of weight and Gold Cup are too much of a deterrence IMO.


  • edited March 2023
    Great read, looking forward to the rest!

    May I request Delta Work's profile in the spotlight next/soon? Have jumped the gun and put a little e/w on him based upon a soft spot following last year's Cheltenham performance and placing in the GN with a lovely antepost price (thanks to this thread!).

  • Great read, looking forward to the rest!

    May I request Delta Work's profile in the spotlight next/soon? Have jumped the gun and put a little e/w on him based upon a soft spot following last year's Cheltenham performance and placing in the GN with a lovely antepost price (thanks to this thread!).

    No worries - asap, hopefully today.

    Cheers

  • edited March 2023

    If the GC & GN is a tough combo, with a few days extra recovery and perhaps taking a less extreme toll, the Festival Cross Country is a road to GN victory (or near-victory) more frequently travelled, though successfully so to date only by horses of Gordon Elliott.
    It was Silver Birch's GN win in 2007 (with 10-06), after a close 2nd in the XC (then a handicap) 32 days earlier, that put Elliott on the map training-wise.
    Cause Of Causes nearly did the double 24 days apart (2nd 4.5L at Aintree with 10-13) in 2016 and of course Tiger did the double-double in 2018 (10-13) & 19 (11-05), 31 and 24 days being the respective gaps. He grudgingly handed over the XC baton to Delta Work last year (3rd 22L at Aintree with 11-09, 24 days later).
    All of them, Elliott-trained.

    This year GALVIN (9yo, 11-11, 33/1) seems to be following this same path, though with the benefit of 31 days recovery.

    Current Stat-profile: No cigar - 3 fails (1 Golden), 1 Pedigree Plus

    Change potential: If winning XC and with an RPR matching Tiger's 171 in 2019, Strong Place Potential

    Ground pref: better ground probably suits best

    • Seasoned chaser with 17 to his name (60% win or near-miss at 24f+) and Gr 1 winner
    • Stamina is his forte – won the 2021 30f Nov Chase at the Festival and just lacked a gear to be closer than 17L 4th in the 2022 Gold Cup.
    • This season has turned a little disappointing – having matched career-high RPR168, he was a beaten fav and then well adrift in Grade 1 company. Elliott reported at the weights’ unveiling that he’d just had a little procedure done on his back and he is back working well”.
    • Pedigree Plus is interesting, mainly in the shape of his Sire:
      • Gold Well (unraced brother to Montjeu – Sire of Tiger Roll’s Sire, Authorized). He’s had 4 different, unsuccessful GN runners to date (though 3 Fell – incl. General Principle, unluckily when going nicely) but his offspring’s record generally over 31.5f+ is impressive: 5 wins and 6 places from 30 attempts (37% frame-making beats the average by approx. x2)
      • Damsire Moonax was a G1 winner at 15.5f on the flat and DS2 Pharadante was Damsire of Double Seven (6L 3rd GN 2014)
    • As we know, 11-11 is a big barrier to GN success but, if everything else stacks up, it’s not impossible to go very close even so and a win or near-miss in the XC would elevate his GN profile enough to do so.

    If he’s fit and the ground is decent, I expect him to turn XC fav Delta Work over and, on that basis, 33/1 for the GN puts him very much on my short-list. A smidgeon of value there methinks, but only if one's willing to take the gamble on his fitness and back him ahead of Cheltenham. 

    That’s the thorny question to which I’ll attempt to figure out my answer over the weekend and a large scotch or three.


  • Prior to Silver Birches win in 2007 he had been favourite the year before when trained by Paul Nicholls. 
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