i guess the conundrum we have is that even if we want to build with long term permanent signings, how do we get those players when we an only pay within the cap? If we want to go up, we need to be signing players that are better than league 1, but we can only offer them league 1 money so how can u put somebody on a 3 year deal on that money when they are better than that / you need them to be better than that. We are therefore still in the 'players in transition' market - prem youngster loanees, ageing players, players out of favour etc etc - its a conundrum that we can't really solve until we go up or the cap is removed so we have to hope LB and SG know what they are doing
I can understand selling him in the Summer but not now. My suspicion is that Bowyer wanted to sell Williams to free up some permanent signings before Thomas came in and took us over and before the cap restrictions came in. Williams insisted on activating the clause in his contract and this prevented Bowyer doing what he wanted to do. And we had a clue with Fosu. If you annoy the bloke it seems to become personal with him.
JW was free to leave in the summer. We had no say in him staying but he opted to stay another year on his current terms I believe.
its definitely seemed to me that that LB has been trying to make it uncomfortable for JW with a view to trying to offload him - lets hope the cardiff deal goes through and we can move on coz its really made no sense having him sitting on the bench
If Williams goes we will sign Shinnie on a free on a 6 month contract.
1 loan, 1 under 21 perm.
Why would we do this... Luton are paying 80% of his wages.
If they agree to pay him what they are paying anyway, it frees up a spot for another loan
If this is possible under the rules of the cap then great, I was under the impression it wasnt
Right if we make a bid for Shinnie of £100 to Luton and they say yes, he is out of contract anyway so no problem.
We then say Mr Shinnie, we would like to offer you 1.7k (William's cap salary). He replies I am very sorry Mr Bowyer but Luton are paying me 4.5k a week and have to until the end of the season, I can't accept that.
We ring Luton and say we are really sorry we can't agree personal terms, deal is off. We are about 60k short on a 20 week contract.
They ring Mr Shinnie and say, look aren't going to play here, nor get a new contract what can we do to smooth the transfer over? I would like to stay at Charlton Mr Jones, if you could compensate me for ending my contract early I am sure I could agree terms. If you pay you £60k would you consider the offer they made?
Yes I would, thank you very much Mr Jones. Steve, its Nathan, give us 60k, not £100 and the deal is good to go.
I can't see how Charlton could be seen to be at fault here. Clubs pay up contracts, pay loyalty bonuses for players to leave, all sorts. The big clubs some times end up playing players fortunes to do one.
I don't think anyone can be sure but I'd be surprised if the EFL wouldn't investigate this. Loyalty bonuses to leave are I assume very rare. A mutual termination of the contract is fairly common but Club A paying Club B as a transfer fee, and then Club B passing that transfer fee onto the player, I cannot see it being allowed. It's clearly a way to bend the rules and I'd be extremely shocked if the EFL didn't have something within the terms to prevent it.
They are no where near as rare as you might imagine, it happens quite a lot when you move a player to a club who can't/won't pay what you are paying him, else no players would ever move down the ladder.
Remember the selling club used to pay the signing on fee, about 10%, if the player didn't ask for a transfer. Derby paid Chris Powell's when we first signed him.
Maybe they're not, just guesswork from both of us either way as we don't know the ins and outs of transfers. Personally I don't think there is an easy way around the cap. The EFL are as we all know pretty useless but they would have a legal team drawing up this cap and I think loopholes are going to be difficult to find. I reckon our best hope with Shinnie is that Luton pay up his contract given he is highly unlikely to ever play for them again anyway. It probably won't even work in our favour under the cap but does create another loan slot.
If Williams goes we will sign Shinnie on a free on a 6 month contract.
1 loan, 1 under 21 perm.
Why would we do this... Luton are paying 80% of his wages.
If they agree to pay him what they are paying anyway, it frees up a spot for another loan
If this is possible under the rules of the cap then great, I was under the impression it wasnt
Right if we make a bid for Shinnie of £100 to Luton and they say yes, he is out of contract anyway so no problem.
We then say Mr Shinnie, we would like to offer you 1.7k (William's cap salary). He replies I am very sorry Mr Bowyer but Luton are paying me 4.5k a week and have to until the end of the season, I can't accept that.
We ring Luton and say we are really sorry we can't agree personal terms, deal is off. We are about 60k short on a 20 week contract.
They ring Mr Shinnie and say, look aren't going to play here, nor get a new contract what can we do to smooth the transfer over? I would like to stay at Charlton Mr Jones, if you could compensate me for ending my contract early I am sure I could agree terms. If you pay you £60k would you consider the offer they made?
Yes I would, thank you very much Mr Jones. Steve, its Nathan, give us 60k, not £100 and the deal is good to go.
I can't see how Charlton could be seen to be at fault here. Clubs pay up contracts, pay loyalty bonuses for players to leave, all sorts. The big clubs some times end up playing players fortunes to do one.
I don't think anyone can be sure but I'd be surprised if the EFL wouldn't investigate this. Loyalty bonuses to leave are I assume very rare. A mutual termination of the contract is fairly common but Club A paying Club B as a transfer fee, and then Club B passing that transfer fee onto the player, I cannot see it being allowed. It's clearly a way to bend the rules and I'd be extremely shocked if the EFL didn't have something within the terms to prevent it.
They are no where near as rare as you might imagine, it happens quite a lot when you move a player to a club who can't/won't pay what you are paying him, else no players would ever move down the ladder.
Remember the selling club used to pay the signing on fee, about 10%, if the player didn't ask for a transfer. Derby paid Chris Powell's when we first signed him.
Maybe they're not, just guesswork from both of us either way as we don't know the ins and outs of transfers. Personally I don't think there is an easy way around the cap. The EFL are as we all know pretty useless but they would have a legal team drawing up this cap and I think loopholes are going to be difficult to find. I reckon our best hope with Shinnie is that Luton pay up his contract given he is highly unlikely to ever play for them again anyway. It probably won't even work in our favour under the cap but does create another loan slot.
I agree. You wouldn't put in a cap that was easy to find ways around. Mind you FFP doesn't seem to have been implemented in a way that prevents clubs finding ways around it, like selling their ground to themselves!
Why sell Williams and replace with a loan player? Another summer rebuild is on the way again, unless we make perm signings nothing will change.
I am fine with loans right now. No team rebuilds in the winter window, as most deals are poor. I don’t see any game changers available this window. I don’t see us going up this season. I just want to improve the squad a bit, not fall into a relegation situation late in the year, see where we land and then build for the long term in the summer.
Why sell Williams and replace with a loan player? Another summer rebuild is on the way again, unless we make perm signings nothing will change.
I am fine with loans right now. No team rebuilds in the winter window, as most deals are poor. I don’t see any game changers available this window. I don’t see us going up this season. I just want to improve the squad a bit, not fall into a relegation situation late in the year, see where we land and then build for the long term in the summer.
I agree, it’s just underwhelming but understand the difficulty of the Jan window especially as we how have this cap. We should only be looking at perm signings in the summer, good free agents and one or two loans but we need a better strategy as constant rebuilds of the last couple of years have seen us fall and lose academy players for pittance.
If Williams goes we will sign Shinnie on a free on a 6 month contract.
1 loan, 1 under 21 perm.
Why would we do this... Luton are paying 80% of his wages.
If they agree to pay him what they are paying anyway, it frees up a spot for another loan
If this is possible under the rules of the cap then great, I was under the impression it wasnt
Right if we make a bid for Shinnie of £100 to Luton and they say yes, he is out of contract anyway so no problem.
We then say Mr Shinnie, we would like to offer you 1.7k (William's cap salary). He replies I am very sorry Mr Bowyer but Luton are paying me 4.5k a week and have to until the end of the season, I can't accept that.
We ring Luton and say we are really sorry we can't agree personal terms, deal is off. We are about 60k short on a 20 week contract.
They ring Mr Shinnie and say, look aren't going to play here, nor get a new contract what can we do to smooth the transfer over? I would like to stay at Charlton Mr Jones, if you could compensate me for ending my contract early I am sure I could agree terms. If you pay you £60k would you consider the offer they made?
Yes I would, thank you very much Mr Jones. Steve, its Nathan, give us 60k, not £100 and the deal is good to go.
I can't see how Charlton could be seen to be at fault here. Clubs pay up contracts, pay loyalty bonuses for players to leave, all sorts. The big clubs some times end up playing players fortunes to do one.
I don't think anyone can be sure but I'd be surprised if the EFL wouldn't investigate this. Loyalty bonuses to leave are I assume very rare. A mutual termination of the contract is fairly common but Club A paying Club B as a transfer fee, and then Club B passing that transfer fee onto the player, I cannot see it being allowed. It's clearly a way to bend the rules and I'd be extremely shocked if the EFL didn't have something within the terms to prevent it.
They are no where near as rare as you might imagine, it happens quite a lot when you move a player to a club who can't/won't pay what you are paying him, else no players would ever move down the ladder.
Remember the selling club used to pay the signing on fee, about 10%, if the player didn't ask for a transfer. Derby paid Chris Powell's when we first signed him.
Maybe they're not, just guesswork from both of us either way as we don't know the ins and outs of transfers. Personally I don't think there is an easy way around the cap. The EFL are as we all know pretty useless but they would have a legal team drawing up this cap and I think loopholes are going to be difficult to find. I reckon our best hope with Shinnie is that Luton pay up his contract given he is highly unlikely to ever play for them again anyway. It probably won't even work in our favour under the cap but does create another loan slot.
I agree. You wouldn't put in a cap that was easy to find ways around. Mind you FFP doesn't seem to have been implemented in a way that prevents clubs finding ways around it, like selling their ground to themselves!
But clubs are being found guilty of breaching FFP. The biggest problem has been the ridiculous weakness by the EFL, particularly with the punishments. At some point I have no doubt one of the bigger clubs in League 1 is going to be breach the cap, will be interesting to see the punishment.
i don't see that thee ios any way that the EFL can impose sanctions when a champ or prem club pay a player some money which effectively is making up for wages that are restricted by the cap and i also doin't think they will care because the purpose of the cap is not to be a pain in the arse, its to stop flimsy clubs from overspending and building up liabilities they cannot afford - a champ club giving a player a golden handshake as he moves into the cap zone, is not giving the league 1 club any financial burden.
I actually came on to post something on the ongoing discussions regarding teams paying up contracts so we can sign them.(Shinnie)
Cant see how that would work if Shinnie is on £5k a week. He might accept a pay off from Luton but would probably want something close to want he is getting at Luton, over presumably 2 or 3 years. Getting rid of Williams on a contract that (for the salary cap calculation) is £1.7k per week is daft if you can't replace him like for like. Shinnie isn't going to accept £1.7k per week over 3 years is he. That is at least £3k per week less than he is on now......£150k pa, so £450k over 3 years. Pay Luton £500k that they pass onto him might work (if it doesnt fall foul of the EFL)
Or just do what I've been saying for months. Go over the cap & take the hit in the future......or tell the EFL we'll see them in Court under restraint of trade and/or age discrimination.
Nobody is talking about a long term contract, but one to the end of the season, where his Luton contract runs out anyway
1) It's another loan, which is hardly building for the future 2) It's another passing midfielder. Looking at his bio on the Arsenal website, it says Matthew typically looks to operate as a deep-lying playmaker, tasked with controlling the tempo of games and picking out runners in the final third, which surely is similar to the roles of Shinnie and Morgan already, and similar to Levitt who Bowyer never played! Or the likes of Henry and Vennings in our academy
And while he might have played well for Swindon this season, he's hardly been a stand out player in L1 this season, That John Sheridan is prepared to give him up, so that he can bring in a loan player in another position, doesn't suggest he's a key player for them.
If Williams goes we will sign Shinnie on a free on a 6 month contract.
1 loan, 1 under 21 perm.
Why would we do this... Luton are paying 80% of his wages.
Because we can get another loan in and Bowyer wont have to worry about leaving a sixth loan signing out of the team each week
Although I don't believe Bowyer will worry too much about having a 6th loan player ...... chances are, there's every risk that one or more of the loan players pick up an injury at some point, especially in this compressed season with often 3 games a week - maybe a 'spare' loan player provides extra cover?
Arsenal doing to Swindon what Chelsea did to us with Gallagher?
Not exactly as Sheridan doesn’t rate Smith as much as the fans do apparently and has not been utilising him correctly in some fans opinions. Similar to us with Williams.
Will Arsenal be happy sending him to us to be a squad player, as no way would Smith be part of our first choice midfield 4 at the moment, which presumably is Millar, JFC, Pratley and Shinnie, with Morgan, Watson and Gilbey all in the wings
Will Arsenal be happy sending him to us to be a squad player, as no way would Smith be part of our first choice midfield 4 at the moment, which presumably is Millar, JFC, Pratley and Shinnie, with Morgan, Watson and Gilbey all in the wings
See I think if he signs he will play. Bows has already said he wanted a box to box midfielder. Exciting 24 hours ahead.
1) It's another loan, which is hardly building for the future 2) It's another passing midfielder. Looking at his bio on the Arsenal website, it says Matthew typically looks to operate as a deep-lying playmaker, tasked with controlling the tempo of games and picking out runners in the final third, which surely is similar to the roles of Shinnie and Morgan already, and similar to Levitt who Bowyer never played! Or the likes of Henry and Vennings in our academy
And while he might have played well for Swindon this season, he's hardly been a stand out player in L1 this season, That John Sheridan is prepared to give him up, so that he can bring in a loan player in another position, doesn't suggest he's a key player for them.
I'd say that's a different type of player to Shinnie and Morgan. In the 4-4-2 we're now playing one of them will play on the right and get forward, link up with an overlapping right back and look to get goals and assists.
If Smith is capable defensively and not just a passer then he could be an improvement over Pratley/Watson in that holding role.
i don't see that thee ios any way that the EFL can impose sanctions when a champ or prem club pay a player some money which effectively is making up for wages that are restricted by the cap and i also doin't think they will care because the purpose of the cap is not to be a pain in the arse, its to stop flimsy clubs from overspending and building up liabilities they cannot afford - a champ club giving a player a golden handshake as he moves into the cap zone, is not giving the league 1 club any financial burden.
I get what you are saying, but it's not just about building up liabilities. If that was the case, signing on fees wouldn't be taken into account but they are.
To be honest I've always thought the best way to stop a club from overspending is a overall cap on expenditure. In theory next season we could buy 20 of the best U21 players and offer them 10k a week. Then have 5 quality over 21's on 10k a week too. You then have a squad of 25 players totalling roughly 13mil a season.
If there really is a loophole when buying a player for X amount and getting the selling club to pay them Y then the cap is worthless.
Will Arsenal be happy sending him to us to be a squad player, as no way would Smith be part of our first choice midfield 4 at the moment, which presumably is Millar, JFC, Pratley and Shinnie, with Morgan, Watson and Gilbey all in the wings
Plenty of football to be played and with Smyth gone, it still only leaves us with one winger. Williams been playing there too so if he goes I definitely think we need a wide man. Or is he a CM?
Comments
1) It's another loan, which is hardly building for the future
2) It's another passing midfielder. Looking at his bio on the Arsenal website, it says Matthew typically looks to operate as a deep-lying playmaker, tasked with controlling the tempo of games and picking out runners in the final third, which surely is similar to the roles of Shinnie and Morgan already, and similar to Levitt who Bowyer never played! Or the likes of Henry and Vennings in our academy
https://www.arsenal.com/academy/players/matt-smith
And while he might have played well for Swindon this season, he's hardly been a stand out player in L1 this season, That John Sheridan is prepared to give him up, so that he can bring in a loan player in another position, doesn't suggest he's a key player for them.
I'd say that's a different type of player to Shinnie and Morgan. In the 4-4-2 we're now playing one of them will play on the right and get forward, link up with an overlapping right back and look to get goals and assists.
If Smith is capable defensively and not just a passer then he could be an improvement over Pratley/Watson in that holding role.
To be honest I've always thought the best way to stop a club from overspending is a overall cap on expenditure. In theory next season we could buy 20 of the best U21 players and offer them 10k a week. Then have 5 quality over 21's on 10k a week too. You then have a squad of 25 players totalling roughly 13mil a season.
If there really is a loophole when buying a player for X amount and getting the selling club to pay them Y then the cap is worthless.
Smith will feel at home here then.