I don’t read too much into the ‘how many goals and assists’ argument, as it’s a bit too simplistic a way of debating a player of Williams’ role.
If we had strikers that could finish better, then Williams’ assist rate would be much higher.
If Williams wasn’t left on the bench so often, then his numbers would be higher.
It really seems like it's never Johnny's fault.
I’d agree with the suggestion that he hasn’t been in blistering form for us, but I just think that the haphazard way we’ve tried to use him this season is a massive missed opportunity.
I’d be saying the fault lied squarely with Johnny, if he was starting every game and delivering poor performances every week.
But the truth is that we’ve got a lot of very talented players in this squad, and hardly any have pulled up any trees against expectations. Have they all just been bad? Or is it the fact that the common denominator is the way they’ve been managed?
So he needs to start every game and play badly for it to be his fault. I'd be up for sacking Bowyer if he was still starting Williams in those circumstances.
It'll be nice to have players we don't have to find excuses for.
If Williams goes we will sign Shinnie on a free on a 6 month contract.
1 loan, 1 under 21 perm.
Why would we do this... Luton are paying 80% of his wages.
If they agree to pay him what they are paying anyway, it frees up a spot for another loan
I've been wondering how you could "bend" the rules over this, when dealing with a club not affected by the cap
If he is on 5000 a week, then his wage cost for the 5 months to the end of June would be say £110k (£150k including NI etc)
We pay Luton a transfer fee of £200k. They give him a payoff of £100K.
We then pay him 1000 a week, costing us say £30k.
The £200k is a transfer fee, so not covered by the cap. The £100k payoff is paid by Luton, who aren't covered by the cap.
Peterborough apparently did this for Clarke-Harris; paid £1.6m and he got allegedly got a top up to his 'wagrs' via a payoff from Bristol Rovers... Allegedly...
I'm not sure that would make sense, as Rovers are covered by the cap as well? Unless they found a way of treating the top up as a 2019/20 cost?
If Williams goes we will sign Shinnie on a free on a 6 month contract.
1 loan, 1 under 21 perm.
Why would we do this... Luton are paying 80% of his wages.
If they agree to pay him what they are paying anyway, it frees up a spot for another loan
If this is possible under the rules of the cap then great, I was under the impression it wasnt
Right if we make a bid for Shinnie of £100 to Luton and they say yes, he is out of contract anyway so no problem.
We then say Mr Shinnie, we would like to offer you 1.7k (William's cap salary). He replies I am very sorry Mr Bowyer but Luton are paying me 4.5k a week and have to until the end of the season, I can't accept that.
We ring Luton and say we are really sorry we can't agree personal terms, deal is off. We are about 60k short on a 20 week contract.
They ring Mr Shinnie and say, look aren't going to play here, nor get a new contract what can we do to smooth the transfer over? I would like to stay at Charlton Mr Jones, if you could compensate me for ending my contract early I am sure I could agree terms. If you pay you £60k would you consider the offer they made?
Yes I would, thank you very much Mr Jones. Steve, its Nathan, give us 60k, not £100 and the deal is good to go.
I can't see how Charlton could be seen to be at fault here. Clubs pay up contracts, pay loyalty bonuses for players to leave, all sorts. The big clubs some times end up playing players fortunes to do one.
I don't think anyone can be sure but I'd be surprised if the EFL wouldn't investigate this. Loyalty bonuses to leave are I assume very rare. A mutual termination of the contract is fairly common but Club A paying Club B as a transfer fee, and then Club B passing that transfer fee onto the player, I cannot see it being allowed. It's clearly a way to bend the rules and I'd be extremely shocked if the EFL didn't have something within the terms to prevent it.
If Williams goes we will sign Shinnie on a free on a 6 month contract.
1 loan, 1 under 21 perm.
Why would we do this... Luton are paying 80% of his wages.
If they agree to pay him what they are paying anyway, it frees up a spot for another loan
If this is possible under the rules of the cap then great, I was under the impression it wasnt
But let's say Shinnie has 20 weeks left on his contract and Luton are paying him 5k a week, they will be paying him 100k regardless. They could offer him 80k to tear his contract up and then he sign for us on heavily reduced wages, a bit like Palace did with Williams.
It's been mentioned on here by a few people that we pay X amount to Luton who pay Shinnie Y as a golden handshake. I don't think that will be legally possible under the cap because that payment from Luton would be outside of his contract. But I can see Luton paying Shinnie off because they're paying a contribution of his wages anyway.
Surely Luton can pay Shinnie what they like as a leaving present? They're not affected by salary caps, while HMRC couldn't care less as it's not a tax dodge
Sorry went I said legally I meant under the cap. It's just so obvious and I can't see the EFL allowing it.
If Williams goes we will sign Shinnie on a free on a 6 month contract.
1 loan, 1 under 21 perm.
Why would we do this... Luton are paying 80% of his wages.
If they agree to pay him what they are paying anyway, it frees up a spot for another loan
If this is possible under the rules of the cap then great, I was under the impression it wasnt
But let's say Shinnie has 20 weeks left on his contract and Luton are paying him 5k a week, they will be paying him 100k regardless. They could offer him 80k to tear his contract up and then he sign for us on heavily reduced wages, a bit like Palace did with Williams.
It's been mentioned on here by a few people that we pay X amount to Luton who pay Shinnie Y as a golden handshake. I don't think that will be legally possible under the cap because that payment from Luton would be outside of his contract. But I can see Luton paying Shinnie off because they're paying a contribution of his wages anyway.
Surely Luton can pay Shinnie what they like as a leaving present? They're not affected by salary caps, while HMRC couldn't care less as it's not a tax dodge
The termination of the contract has got to be mutually agreed, one side can't unilaterally cancel it. Its normally agreed by one side receiving some sort of payment.
Of course they could just pay him up, without any input from us as they are paying him 80% of it anyway.
I think this could well happen. Doesn’t bend any rules, Luton aren’t really suffering and we can still sign Shinnie on reduced wages. We might even have to pay him more than we are now but it would free up a loan spot.
Another midfielder?! What is the point in that. He might be a great player but it’s not what we need.
I also can’t understand why we don’t just pay the fee for Randall. If he’s any good we’ll be worth 5x more in 6 months - Exeter seem to think he’s as good as Watkins
So that's 6 loans in the squad and with famewo nearly fit, only 5 can be used, will be interesting to see if this changes tomorrow. Perhaps TS has given up on promotion this year and will rebuild in the close season.
If Williams goes we will sign Shinnie on a free on a 6 month contract.
1 loan, 1 under 21 perm.
Why would we do this... Luton are paying 80% of his wages.
If they agree to pay him what they are paying anyway, it frees up a spot for another loan
If this is possible under the rules of the cap then great, I was under the impression it wasnt
Right if we make a bid for Shinnie of £100 to Luton and they say yes, he is out of contract anyway so no problem.
We then say Mr Shinnie, we would like to offer you 1.7k (William's cap salary). He replies I am very sorry Mr Bowyer but Luton are paying me 4.5k a week and have to until the end of the season, I can't accept that.
We ring Luton and say we are really sorry we can't agree personal terms, deal is off. We are about 60k short on a 20 week contract.
They ring Mr Shinnie and say, look aren't going to play here, nor get a new contract what can we do to smooth the transfer over? I would like to stay at Charlton Mr Jones, if you could compensate me for ending my contract early I am sure I could agree terms. If you pay you £60k would you consider the offer they made?
Yes I would, thank you very much Mr Jones. Steve, its Nathan, give us 60k, not £100 and the deal is good to go.
I can't see how Charlton could be seen to be at fault here. Clubs pay up contracts, pay loyalty bonuses for players to leave, all sorts. The big clubs some times end up playing players fortunes to do one.
I don't think anyone can be sure but I'd be surprised if the EFL wouldn't investigate this. Loyalty bonuses to leave are I assume very rare. A mutual termination of the contract is fairly common but Club A paying Club B as a transfer fee, and then Club B passing that transfer fee onto the player, I cannot see it being allowed. It's clearly a way to bend the rules and I'd be extremely shocked if the EFL didn't have something within the terms to prevent it.
They are no where near as rare as you might imagine, it happens quite a lot when you move a player to a club who can't/won't pay what you are paying him, else no players would ever move down the ladder.
Remember the selling club used to pay the signing on fee, about 10%, if the player didn't ask for a transfer. Derby paid Chris Powell's when we first signed him.
Smith will be a replacement for Williams, but having played the whole season in the same league. I'd be happy with that.
No doubt a few simpletons will struggle with him having the same (common) name as a loanee who didn't work out.
I don’t understand the logic in losing a senior member of the squad for a 20yo on loan.
We already have Stockley, Millar, Maatsen, Shinnie and Famewo on loan - which one of those is going to be excluded from the match-day squad to facilitate another midfielder?
We’re just adding to the already massive rebuild needed in the summer.
So far he has been a defensive midfielder, a box to box one, a qpr reject, a 6'5 center forward, a Wales legend, only capped by Wales to stop him playing for England, the next Colin Bell, the next Polish Pete, cover for Cullen, Lockyer's best mate, highly rated by Johnny Williams. Have I missed anything?
Shinnie is the only name there that could be signed on a perm, but his wages are too big of a jump. Unless Famewo has had another setback and we'll be sending him back?
So far he has been a defensive midfielder, a box to box one, a qpr reject, a 6'5 center forward, a Wales legend, only capped by Wales to stop him playing for England, the next Colin Bell, the next Polish Pete, cover for Cullen, Lockyer's best mate, highly rated by Johnny Williams. Have I missed anything?
That was only on page 2 😳😳
I'll add the Bond theme he wrote and sang was pretty decent.
If Williams goes we will sign Shinnie on a free on a 6 month contract.
1 loan, 1 under 21 perm.
Why would we do this... Luton are paying 80% of his wages.
If they agree to pay him what they are paying anyway, it frees up a spot for another loan
I've been wondering how you could "bend" the rules over this, when dealing with a club not affected by the cap
If he is on 5000 a week, then his wage cost for the 5 months to the end of June would be say £110k (£150k including NI etc)
We pay Luton a transfer fee of £200k. They give him a payoff of £100K.
We then pay him 1000 a week, costing us say £30k.
The £200k is a transfer fee, so not covered by the cap. The £100k payoff is paid by Luton, who aren't covered by the cap.
Peterborough apparently did this for Clarke-Harris; paid £1.6m and he got allegedly got a top up to his 'wagrs' via a payoff from Bristol Rovers... Allegedly...
I thought the Clarke-Harris transfer was completed before any wage cap existed anyway.
Shinnie is the only name there that could be signed on a perm, but his wages are too big of a jump. Unless Famewo has had another setback and we'll be sending him back?
That’s what crossed my mind about Famewo so as to keep the loans at five, hope I wrong because we’ll definitely need a CB or two then 😲.
There are 3 Matt Smiths & we get the young untried & untested one. Great.
Let me know when Welling unearth a loval lad called Lionel Messi wont you....
We haven’t signed him yet but if we do it’s the one that’s played regularly in the league we’re in. That alone makes him more likely to do well than the Man City one.
Signing this kid from Arsenal on loan is so underwhelming! We need to be building for next season, I’m resigned to the fact we ain’t going up this season but this isn’t a show of intent to constantly sign players on loan. No disrespect to Thomas but he needs to put his money where his mouth is, signing Randall would be exactly that but looks very, very unlikely.
I can see us putting in another token bid but it won’t happen, it’ll be the same as Sorba Thomas.
Comments
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/12416552/arsenal-transfer-smith-swindon-loan/amp/
No doubt a few simpletons will struggle with him having the same (common) name as a loanee who didn't work out.
Remember the selling club used to pay the signing on fee, about 10%, if the player didn't ask for a transfer. Derby paid Chris Powell's when we first signed him.
So far he has been a defensive midfielder, a box to box one, a qpr reject, a 6'5 center forward, a Wales legend, only capped by Wales to stop him playing for England, the next Colin Bell, the next Polish Pete, cover for Cullen, Lockyer's best mate, highly rated by Johnny Williams. Have I missed anything?
That was only on page 2 😳😳
Let me know when Welling unearth a loval lad called Lionel Messi wont you....
The less said about the other one, the better