Here's another angle on the lies problem. And it does come over time and time again that it is being lied to that has got some of you very upset. The words "blatant" "obvious" and similar are often quoted. Yes the procedure and the announcements were were very obviously not explicitly telling how things were. They would not fool anyone, as many of you have said. KM and RD are intelligent people (and even their hardest critics seem to admit this) and it follows that if they were trying to fool fans they would have been a bit more subtle in their methods. They may well have overestimated the intelligence of some fans, by presuming that the standard formalities and expected procedures they were going through would be seen as just that. You would shrug your shoulders and say "Well that's the way things are done, the media expect it, and we are all aware of the reality. Now let's move on and see if things work out. By the way I was not saying that Watt is the answer to all our prayers, but life at the front was desperately needed and the general opinion was that he certainly improved things from half time. In fact, I cannot understand why he didn't start. Also saying that we HAVE to win the very next match away at Watford is ridiculous.
Here's another angle on the lies problem. And it does come over time and time again that it is being lied to that has got some of you very upset. The words "blatant" "obvious" and similar are often quoted. Yes the procedure and the announcements were were very obviously not explicitly telling how things were. They would not fool anyone, as many of you have said. KM and RD are intelligent people (and even their hardest critics seem to admit this) and it follows that if they were trying to fool fans they would have been a bit more subtle in their methods. They may well have overestimated the intelligence of some fans, by presuming that the standard formalities and expected procedures they were going through would be seen as just that. You would shrug your shoulders and say "Well that's the way things are done, the media expect it, and we are all aware of the reality. Now let's move on and see if things work out. By the way I was not saying that Watt is the answer to all our prayers, but life at the front was desperately needed and the general opinion was that he certainly improved things from half time. In fact, I cannot understand why he didn't start. Also saying that we HAVE to win the very next match away at Watford is ridiculous.
You think the fans should expect to be treated like 11-year-olds and if they don't they are thick? None of the lies told in the last few days was remotely necessary. The only point in telling them was the assumption that a percentage of the supporters are so stupid they would think they were true because the club says so, but why tell them at all unless they think the truth would do them more damage? In fact the harm done to the goodwill and trust towards the club from a much larger number has been vastly disproportionate to any benefit.
It is not "standard PR" or anything like that, it is a disastrous approach that begs questions about the intelligence of those responsible.
All those calling for player investment in this window are conveniently forgetting that when Roly took over we were losing £6-7 million a year. I have no idea what it is running at now, but you can be sure we are not in profit!
Fair point that profit was probably the wrong word, but I'd like to think the sentiment of my message wasn't lost just because I used it. Of course I don't think we're making a profit as I think just breaking even as per Roland's supposed goal would only happen in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Maybe Roland could explain his new strategy after the modifications to FPP to clear things up...?
No LFE the sentiment of your post was certainly not lost on me and I agree with it.
I wasn't even highlighting the profit part to dig you out, but I do believe that with all the hype on here over the past few days, fans are conveniently forgetting our financial position.
I would absolutely love it if Roly decides to splash some cash in this window, but I also understand if he doesn't!
Before he came in last year we seriously facing the threat of administration and losing £6-7 million per year, from what I can see, that position hasn't changed significantly as yet. I understand everyone's frustrations with the change in manager, but one thing you can be sure of Luzon will be a much cheaper option than the likes of Billy Davies et al.
We just have to pray that Luzon works out because, I for one, certainly do not want to be in Div. 1 again!
I think fans just have to realise that to Roly, we are a business, not a play thing and any company in the real world leaking money as Charlton are, would be facing severe cuts or even closure. I am just happy my Charlton is still afloat!
She says that they sacked Bob Peeters on Sunday evening. Within an hour she has 20 applications. She quickly decides Luzon is the right man, yet... Luzon says he got called by RD on Monday(!) and was told to come to SE7.
So it looks like he didn't even apply! He was just told to go work for us....
Here's another angle on the lies problem. And it does come over time and time again that it is being lied to that has got some of you very upset. The words "blatant" "obvious" and similar are often quoted. Yes the procedure and the announcements were were very obviously not explicitly telling how things were. They would not fool anyone, as many of you have said. KM and RD are intelligent people (and even their hardest critics seem to admit this) and it follows that if they were trying to fool fans they would have been a bit more subtle in their methods. They may well have overestimated the intelligence of some fans, by presuming that the standard formalities and expected procedures they were going through would be seen as just that. You would shrug your shoulders and say "Well that's the way things are done, the media expect it, and we are all aware of the reality. Now let's move on and see if things work out. By the way I was not saying that Watt is the answer to all our prayers, but life at the front was desperately needed and the general opinion was that he certainly improved things from half time. In fact, I cannot understand why he didn't start. Also saying that we HAVE to win the very next match away at Watford is ridiculous.
The thing with people being upset about the lies isn't just that they happened - you expect that in a competitive media-heavy business - but the fact that the lies were completely unnecessary and lazy.
Chris Powell lied; the media asked him if he knew Fuller was available and he feigned surprise and then unveiled him no time later. Obvious, done to stop other teams from acting if they were considering it, harmless. He repeatedly said he was alright with Roland at the start even though he obviously wasn't. This was done to keep the ship afloat and stop a total mutiny, and also likely to help him keep his job. Again, you expect this. The thing with these lies from Katrien is there was just no need. If they'd stayed quiet fro a day then shown us Luzon no-one would have been surprised, but instead they put out a daft statement and they're digging themselves in deeper now claiming that there were at least 20 applicants, all of whom the guy they already wanted to employ blew out of the water in the space of an evening of what I assume must have been CV reading. Apparently there were other interviews. Don't know when or where they took place but given Luzon was called over to The Valley with Sky Sports in attendance well in advance I suspect this is bullshit. It's just all so silly. Why bother? It all smacks of 'put out a statement to keep them quiet' and a bizarre assumption that we'd all forget about the statement once a new man was in place. I'm sure Katrien isn't best pleased that she's now being grilled on whether or not she even spoke to anyone else. She clearly wasn't prepared for it or I think she'd have come up with something a bit more convincing. Alternatively she could have just said that Luzon was the man they wanted and they run the show and employ who they want. I'd take that. I wouldn't necessarily be happy but at least it would be honest.
More than anything else I think people are just confused. Where does this bullshit the fans attitude come from? What's the point in it? Is it just a total lack of respect or do they genuinely think things will go better if they pointlessly make up stories to assure us Luzon is the best man for the job? It's Charlton; if he does well we'll love him, if he does badly we'll bicker about whether he's had enough time and the most you'll get is some muffled boos at the final whistle. Were they so affected by the Liege rioting they thought we'd storm the stadium if they didn't assure us they'd done their due diligence on every manager on the planet? Ultimately it just shows they really don't understand the Charlton fans which is just a bit sad.
If they knew Luzon was going to replace Peeters, which obviously they did, why on earth bother with all these stories if that's the decision. Are they embarrassed about the way they are recruiting staff?
Here's another angle on the lies problem. And it does come over time and time again that it is being lied to that has got some of you very upset. The words "blatant" "obvious" and similar are often quoted. Yes the procedure and the announcements were were very obviously not explicitly telling how things were. They would not fool anyone, as many of you have said. KM and RD are intelligent people (and even their hardest critics seem to admit this) and it follows that if they were trying to fool fans they would have been a bit more subtle in their methods. They may well have overestimated the intelligence of some fans, by presuming that the standard formalities and expected procedures they were going through would be seen as just that. You would shrug your shoulders and say "Well that's the way things are done, the media expect it, and we are all aware of the reality. Now let's move on and see if things work out. By the way I was not saying that Watt is the answer to all our prayers, but life at the front was desperately needed and the general opinion was that he certainly improved things from half time. In fact, I cannot understand why he didn't start. Also saying that we HAVE to win the very next match away at Watford is ridiculous.
The thing with people being upset about the lies isn't just that they happened - you expect that in a competitive media-heavy business - but the fact that the lies were completely unnecessary and lazy.
Chris Powell lied; the media asked him if he knew Fuller was available and he feigned surprise and then unveiled him no time later. Obvious, done to stop other teams from acting if they were considering it, harmless. He repeatedly said he was alright with Roland at the start even though he obviously wasn't. This was done to keep the ship afloat and stop a total mutiny, and also likely to help him keep his job. Again, you expect this. The thing with these lies from Katrien is there was just no need. If they'd stayed quiet fro a day then shown us Luzon no-one would have been surprised, but instead they put out a daft statement and they're digging themselves in deeper now claiming that there were at least 20 applicants, all of whom the guy they already wanted to employ blew out of the water in the space of an evening of what I assume must have been CV reading. Apparently there were other interviews. Don't know when or where they took place but given Luzon was called over to The Valley with Sky Sports in attendance well in advance I suspect this is bullshit. It's just all so silly. Why bother? It all smacks of 'put out a statement to keep them quiet' and a bizarre assumption that we'd all forget about the statement once a new man was in place. I'm sure Katrien isn't best pleased that she's now being grilled on whether or not she even spoke to anyone else. She clearly wasn't prepared for it or I think she'd have come up with something a bit more convincing. Alternatively she could have just said that Luzon was the man they wanted and they run the show and employ who they want. I'd take that. I wouldn't necessarily be happy but at least it would be honest.
More than anything else I think people are just confused. Where does this bullshit the fans attitude come from? What's the point in it? Is it just a total lack of respect or do they genuinely think things will go better if they pointlessly make up stories to assure us Luzon is the best man for the job? It's Charlton; if he does well we'll love him, if he does badly we'll bicker about whether he's had enough time and the most you'll get is some muffled boos at the final whistle. Were they so affected by the Liege rioting they thought we'd storm the stadium if they didn't assure us they'd done their due diligence on every manager on the planet? Ultimately it just shows they really don't understand the Charlton fans which is just a bit sad.
You may be surprised to learn that I agree with pretty much all of this. I just wanted to put another angle on it, and still can't quite get why people are so hysterical about this. It is/was a PR error/nightmare but unless you want to make a positive reaction such as a walkout or a mass demonstration, then let it go. Yes, they may have misunderstood the bulk of Charlton fans, but looking at these posts how can anyone actually understand such a varied mix of characters?
Here's another angle on the lies problem. And it does come over time and time again that it is being lied to that has got some of you very upset. The words "blatant" "obvious" and similar are often quoted. Yes the procedure and the announcements were were very obviously not explicitly telling how things were. They would not fool anyone, as many of you have said. KM and RD are intelligent people (and even their hardest critics seem to admit this) and it follows that if they were trying to fool fans they would have been a bit more subtle in their methods. They may well have overestimated the intelligence of some fans, by presuming that the standard formalities and expected procedures they were going through would be seen as just that. You would shrug your shoulders and say "Well that's the way things are done, the media expect it, and we are all aware of the reality. Now let's move on and see if things work out. By the way I was not saying that Watt is the answer to all our prayers, but life at the front was desperately needed and the general opinion was that he certainly improved things from half time. In fact, I cannot understand why he didn't start. Also saying that we HAVE to win the very next match away at Watford is ridiculous.
The thing with people being upset about the lies isn't just that they happened - you expect that in a competitive media-heavy business - but the fact that the lies were completely unnecessary and lazy.
Chris Powell lied; the media asked him if he knew Fuller was available and he feigned surprise and then unveiled him no time later. Obvious, done to stop other teams from acting if they were considering it, harmless. He repeatedly said he was alright with Roland at the start even though he obviously wasn't. This was done to keep the ship afloat and stop a total mutiny, and also likely to help him keep his job. Again, you expect this. The thing with these lies from Katrien is there was just no need. If they'd stayed quiet fro a day then shown us Luzon no-one would have been surprised, but instead they put out a daft statement and they're digging themselves in deeper now claiming that there were at least 20 applicants, all of whom the guy they already wanted to employ blew out of the water in the space of an evening of what I assume must have been CV reading. Apparently there were other interviews. Don't know when or where they took place but given Luzon was called over to The Valley with Sky Sports in attendance well in advance I suspect this is bullshit. It's just all so silly. Why bother? It all smacks of 'put out a statement to keep them quiet' and a bizarre assumption that we'd all forget about the statement once a new man was in place. I'm sure Katrien isn't best pleased that she's now being grilled on whether or not she even spoke to anyone else. She clearly wasn't prepared for it or I think she'd have come up with something a bit more convincing. Alternatively she could have just said that Luzon was the man they wanted and they run the show and employ who they want. I'd take that. I wouldn't necessarily be happy but at least it would be honest.
More than anything else I think people are just confused. Where does this bullshit the fans attitude come from? What's the point in it? Is it just a total lack of respect or do they genuinely think things will go better if they pointlessly make up stories to assure us Luzon is the best man for the job? It's Charlton; if he does well we'll love him, if he does badly we'll bicker about whether he's had enough time and the most you'll get is some muffled boos at the final whistle. Were they so affected by the Liege rioting they thought we'd storm the stadium if they didn't assure us they'd done their due diligence on every manager on the planet? Ultimately it just shows they really don't understand the Charlton fans which is just a bit sad.
You may be surprised to learn that I agree with pretty much all of this. I just wanted to put another angle on it, and still can't quite get why people are so hysterical about this. It is/was a PR error/nightmare but unless you want to make a positive reaction such as a walkout or a mass demonstration, then let it go. Yes, they may have misunderstood the bulk of Charlton fans, but looking at these posts how can anyone actually understand such a varied mix of characters?
I think there's actually a lot of crossover between fans on both sides of the argument. I'm in the camp where I know nothing about Luzon and will wait to see how his team does so I haven't offered an opinion on his style nor his press conference. I'm also not hugely anti-RD but I'm very disappointed in the way he's gone about communicating with the fans via Katrien. I think people in general are calmer than has been made out (not by you personally by the way) but it's still very fresh and I think people do need a bit of time to vent. CL is a good place for that. Come 5pm on Saturday things will be very different, especially if we manage to win.
My view of Charlton is it's a club with a strong sense of community and given the history of the club that's not going to change. Lying in a very petty and unnecessary way to the fans while putting a very alien network system in place isn't going to ingratiate you with them. As you say, you can't understand every fan, but you can subscribe to an ethos that at least gives the impression you're working towards the same goal as them. I think that's been missed by this bunch this week and it's a shame. I really, really want to like them but they're making it tough.
Nobody wants Luzon to fail. The problem is that he has been set up to fail by RD's business plan. Aside from the pitch improvement,paid for by the sale of kermorgant apparently, RD has contributed little to the team.
We are currently in a lower position than we were at the end of the last whole season Powell was in charge. Riga rescued the club last season by getting Powell's team to perform better than Powell had done, and by ignoring the January crap RD brought in. This season the squad is too thin to compete for a whole season and we are in danger of relegation unless things get turned round. RD's strategy is to use spare players from the network to fill gaps. the change of Coach will not change that.
I would say the odds are stacked against Luzon or anybody else succeeding.
Nobody wants Luzon to fail. The problem is that he has been set up to fail by RD's business plan. Aside from the pitch improvement,paid for by the sale of kermorgant apparently, RD has contributed little to the team.
We are currently in a lower position than we were at the end of the last whole season Powell was in charge. Riga rescued the club last season by getting Powell's team to perform better than Powell had done, and by ignoring the January crap RD brought in. This season the squad is too thin to compete for a whole season and we are in danger of relegation unless things get turned round. RD's strategy is to use spare players from the network to fill gaps. the change of Coach will not change that.
I would say the odds are stacked against Luzon or anybody else succeeding.
Are you conveniently forgetting the 3.5 million euros for Igor?
The problem with the network, in association with the 'innovative' scouting approach, is that we are giving undue preference to a tiny proportion of the available resource and for the wrong reasons. If you were picking the best manager (or 'head coach' if you will) for Charlton Athletic on a purely objective basis then the chances of it being Guy Luzon are miniscule. The same as the chances of players that are on Liege's books and currently out of favour being the right players to bring in to our club to best address our current situation, whatever that may be.
Of the 22 players brought in to the club that have featured in the first team since RD took over, either permanently or on loan, 11 have been drawn from the network. That's half of our players and three quarters of our managers drawn from a tiny and not especially talented or successful pool of resource. It's very hard to imagine this as a formula for success.
I hope Luzon is a success, I hope Watt turns out to be a great striker for the club but the way that we're operating is reducing and not increasing our chances of success and for this and the fact that we're being stupidly lied to, the fans have every right to be angry and disillusioned with the club whilst not having their support questioned.
Brilliant analysis. My problem with this whole shabby network, is the murky goings on behind it. Seems like there are people with money making agendas pulling strings and influencing RD's decisions. Most normal coaches would not stick around after being shafted by their chairman to the point where they become a hate figure to the fan base and subsequently fired. Some would have the class of a Chris Powell and walk away, head held high - some would spill the beans. This chap hangs around in the background and jumps onboard the next gravy train. It stinks and I don't think this appointment is made with the interest of CAFC at heart, this benefits other people and their desire to make money much more.
I think your guess is right on the money. I believe RD has assumed that all fans are like Standard's. In a sense I can understand his conclusion. He's not a football man. He will not appreciate that Standard has most in common with a club like Newcastle. The two cities have similar demographic and recent history. Newcastle fans have a history of putting up with all kind of shit from their owners over the years and still they turn up. But when they turn, it can get nasty. Like at Liege. Charlton isn't like that. The Trust has tried hard to point this out to Roland and Katrien. So has Richard Murray, believe it or not,; e.g. he went to her with the dossier on our complaint to the EC regarding the Olympic Stadium, as an example of what a Trust can do to support its Club, independently. Not a word back. Another source says her view was "well it might become important when we are in the FAPL". But we don't know if that's true because she has not so much as acknowledged receipt to us.
They are not listening. They think that so long as we are not incited to riot, we will turn up, and pay up. They don't understand that, rather than riot, instead, almost imperceptibly, a lot of people will just stop going. Which for his business is much, much worse.
If he can afford to buy Igor, then surely it wouldn't matter to Mr Duchatelet if our attendances were around the 10,000 mark. A drop of 33% of our average gate is surely not a big deal to Mr Duchatelet where he moves in the world of high finance and football money.
Nobody wants Luzon to fail. The problem is that he has been set up to fail by RD's business plan. Aside from the pitch improvement,paid for by the sale of kermorgant apparently, RD has contributed little to the team.
We are currently in a lower position than we were at the end of the last whole season Powell was in charge. Riga rescued the club last season by getting Powell's team to perform better than Powell had done, and by ignoring the January crap RD brought in. This season the squad is too thin to compete for a whole season and we are in danger of relegation unless things get turned round. RD's strategy is to use spare players from the network to fill gaps. the change of Coach will not change that.
I would say the odds are stacked against Luzon or anybody else succeeding.
Are you conveniently forgetting the 3.5 million euros for Igor?
The exception that proves the rule. Of course, if other players come in during the window I will accept I am wrong. I guess all the optimists would also have to accept they are wrong as well if the opposite occurs.
Comments
They may well have overestimated the intelligence of some fans, by presuming that the standard formalities and expected procedures they were going through would be seen as just that.
You would shrug your shoulders and say "Well that's the way things are done, the media expect it, and we are all aware of the reality. Now let's move on and see if things work out.
By the way I was not saying that Watt is the answer to all our prayers, but life at the front was desperately needed and the general opinion was that he certainly improved things from half time. In fact, I cannot understand why he didn't start. Also saying that we HAVE to win the very next match away at Watford is ridiculous.
It is not "standard PR" or anything like that, it is a disastrous approach that begs questions about the intelligence of those responsible.
I wasn't even highlighting the profit part to dig you out, but I do believe that with all the hype on here over the past few days, fans are conveniently forgetting our financial position.
I would absolutely love it if Roly decides to splash some cash in this window, but I also understand if he doesn't!
Before he came in last year we seriously facing the threat of administration and losing £6-7 million per year, from what I can see, that position hasn't changed significantly as yet. I understand everyone's frustrations with the change in manager, but one thing you can be sure of Luzon will be a much cheaper option than the likes of Billy Davies et al.
We just have to pray that Luzon works out because, I for one, certainly do not want to be in Div. 1 again!
I think fans just have to realise that to Roly, we are a business, not a play thing and any company in the real world leaking money as Charlton are, would be facing severe cuts or even closure. I am just happy my Charlton is still afloat!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svX_9aaMu_k
She says that they sacked Bob Peeters on Sunday evening.
Within an hour she has 20 applications.
She quickly decides Luzon is the right man, yet...
Luzon says he got called by RD on Monday(!) and was told to come to SE7.
So it looks like he didn't even apply! He was just told to go work for us....
Chris Powell lied; the media asked him if he knew Fuller was available and he feigned surprise and then unveiled him no time later. Obvious, done to stop other teams from acting if they were considering it, harmless. He repeatedly said he was alright with Roland at the start even though he obviously wasn't. This was done to keep the ship afloat and stop a total mutiny, and also likely to help him keep his job. Again, you expect this. The thing with these lies from Katrien is there was just no need. If they'd stayed quiet fro a day then shown us Luzon no-one would have been surprised, but instead they put out a daft statement and they're digging themselves in deeper now claiming that there were at least 20 applicants, all of whom the guy they already wanted to employ blew out of the water in the space of an evening of what I assume must have been CV reading. Apparently there were other interviews. Don't know when or where they took place but given Luzon was called over to The Valley with Sky Sports in attendance well in advance I suspect this is bullshit. It's just all so silly. Why bother? It all smacks of 'put out a statement to keep them quiet' and a bizarre assumption that we'd all forget about the statement once a new man was in place. I'm sure Katrien isn't best pleased that she's now being grilled on whether or not she even spoke to anyone else. She clearly wasn't prepared for it or I think she'd have come up with something a bit more convincing. Alternatively she could have just said that Luzon was the man they wanted and they run the show and employ who they want. I'd take that. I wouldn't necessarily be happy but at least it would be honest.
More than anything else I think people are just confused. Where does this bullshit the fans attitude come from? What's the point in it? Is it just a total lack of respect or do they genuinely think things will go better if they pointlessly make up stories to assure us Luzon is the best man for the job? It's Charlton; if he does well we'll love him, if he does badly we'll bicker about whether he's had enough time and the most you'll get is some muffled boos at the final whistle. Were they so affected by the Liege rioting they thought we'd storm the stadium if they didn't assure us they'd done their due diligence on every manager on the planet? Ultimately it just shows they really don't understand the Charlton fans which is just a bit sad.
My view of Charlton is it's a club with a strong sense of community and given the history of the club that's not going to change. Lying in a very petty and unnecessary way to the fans while putting a very alien network system in place isn't going to ingratiate you with them. As you say, you can't understand every fan, but you can subscribe to an ethos that at least gives the impression you're working towards the same goal as them. I think that's been missed by this bunch this week and it's a shame. I really, really want to like them but they're making it tough.
Aside from the pitch improvement,paid for by the sale of kermorgant apparently, RD has contributed little to the team.
We are currently in a lower position than we were at the end of the last whole season Powell was in charge. Riga rescued the club last season by getting Powell's team to perform better than Powell had done, and by ignoring the January crap RD brought in. This season the squad is too thin to compete for a whole season and we are in danger of relegation unless things get turned round. RD's strategy is to use spare players from the network to fill gaps. the change of Coach will not change that.
I would say the odds are stacked against Luzon or anybody else succeeding.
Two excellent posts there, in particular this:
Where does this bullshit the fans attitude come from? What's the point in it? Is it just a total lack of respect or do they genuinely think things will go better if they pointlessly make up stories to assure us Luzon is the best man for the job? It's Charlton; if he does well we'll love him, if he does badly we'll bicker about whether he's had enough time and the most you'll get is some muffled boos at the final whistle. Were they so affected by the Liege rioting they thought we'd storm the stadium if they didn't assure us they'd done their due diligence on every manager on the planet? Ultimately it just shows they really don't understand the Charlton fans which is just a bit sad.
I think your guess is right on the money. I believe RD has assumed that all fans are like Standard's. In a sense I can understand his conclusion. He's not a football man. He will not appreciate that Standard has most in common with a club like Newcastle. The two cities have similar demographic and recent history. Newcastle fans have a history of putting up with all kind of shit from their owners over the years and still they turn up. But when they turn, it can get nasty. Like at Liege. Charlton isn't like that. The Trust has tried hard to point this out to Roland and Katrien. So has Richard Murray, believe it or not,; e.g. he went to her with the dossier on our complaint to the EC regarding the Olympic Stadium, as an example of what a Trust can do to support its Club, independently. Not a word back. Another source says her view was "well it might become important when we are in the FAPL". But we don't know if that's true because she has not so much as acknowledged receipt to us.
They are not listening. They think that so long as we are not incited to riot, we will turn up, and pay up. They don't understand that, rather than riot, instead, almost imperceptibly, a lot of people will just stop going. Which for his business is much, much worse.
I honestly think most would keep turning up, despite the situation, sadly.
And as you say, we certainly wouldn't riot, even if things got hideously bad.