A very fair and interesting take on it, Mr Mundell. I think that I agree. Overall I have been fascinated by the whole network concept, not because i think it is fundamentally wrong (or brilliant) but because I see obstacles to how it will work in practice. And the arrival of Thuram apparently from nowhere days after the ink had dried on Slater's documents, was a prime example.
Just skimmed through this thread. I've no idea what's going on with Thuram, but I would not be at all surprised if he's very unhappy at the situation he finds himself in and, in my view, justifiably so. Moreover, if he believes that Ben Hamer is a better keeper than he is that may well fuel his frustration rather than relieve it.
Thuram was on the bench at Standard de Liege, a team at the top of the First Division in Belgium and challenging for a Champions League place. He may or may not have been happy. He is then offered (or told to accept) a move to a Club playing in the Second Division in England and, moreover, one struggling at the bottom. He is offered no more money (I assume) and asked to live in a new and alien environment. This is not another Club in Belgium or France where he may have more cultural affinity.
Why does he move? Because he wants to play regularly and because he assumes the move represents an opportunity to play. Of course he expected to play!! That is not arrogance and it matters not one jot who told him what. He would have no doubt expected selection to be based on merit, but he would have reasonably expected to play on merit. From his perspective, why else would he have been asked to move?!!
I am not for one moment defending his behaviour (if, indeed, he is now refusing to sit on the bench), but I do not blame him at all if he is seriously p****d off. When the dim-witted Martin Samuels wrote his pathetic article in the Daily Mail, in his desperate attempt to find a conspiracy with which to attack the new owner he missed what is now blindingly obvious. Whoever decided which players should move from Standard to Charlton in January was well intended, but they screwed up. One of the biggest losers from the errors made was Yohann Thuram Ulien. He may well know that and that he would have been better served, professionally and perhaps personally, from either staying where he was or going somewhere else.
I wonder whether Duchatelet and his advisors have registered this and learnt the appropriate lessons. I hope so because such poor execution of strategy will undermine any chance of long-term success.
Given that Duchatelet and advisors would have been looking at Charlton since about November they appear to have brought in quite a high volume of players in January without spending much cash in the group. I had expected to see more of Nego simply because of the issues at right back and left back but Wiggins and Wilson have been almost ever-present. So Ajdarevic, Reza and Thuram have been the focus of our attention. Assuming we stay up, the reason that I (and some others) have been so optimistic about next season is precisely because if Staprix can supply six players within a few weeks, imagine what can be done May-August whilst ten players signed over the last three years ago quietly leave. The opportunity and the strategy is there. It is the execution as Mundell mentions which is key and must be delivered, including retention of the best out of contract players. If the majority of Hamer, Morrison, Dervite and Poyet stay and we can tap into the Liege European/African scouting network then I foresee a mid-table team at worst. Mistakes will be made in the execution and national journalists will exploit the situation (Samuels wrote about Watford too!) but overall the potential is there. So the question as to who is responsible for acquiring these players remains - because it ain't a committee! Is it Riga or another coach who will head up 2014/15 who states the requirement - surely it has to be someone with ownership of the results. Back to the goalkeeping situation with Hamer playing so well - a priority to sign him up surely as he is proven at this level. But if he goes, he goes and someone needs to secure a keeper as good if not better if CAFC is to realise its potential. The player marks on this site and all of the comments tell a story about each player and every game. One can be sure that the footballing staff at CAFC are watching the same players and games with the advantage of technology like Prozone. They will know the gaps and weak points in the squad and Duchatelet has the wealth. So the question is do we have someone who can land the target players in spite of the Charlton brand being a tad lower in the last few years than we would like it to be.
It seems to me that RD's crew grossly underestimated what is needed to be successful in the Champ, very possibly believeing that players from a country's top division would be capable of improving the quality of a struggling champ team. AA aside, this has clearly not been the case, whether due to lack of skill (unlikely) or physicality (my bet). SL might be a much stronger team than CAFC, but I'd bet that the rump of the Belgian league is much like Scotland and that 90% of the talent resides with perhaps the top 20% of clubs.
They are going to have to up their game considerably if anyone coming in from "the system" in the summer is not also going to prove inadequate.
It seems to me that RD's crew grossly underestimated what is needed to be successful in the Champ, very possibly believeing that players from a country's top division would be capable of improving the quality of a struggling champ team. AA aside, this has clearly not been the case, whether due to lack of skill (unlikely) or physicality (my bet). SL might be a much stronger team than CAFC, but I'd bet that the rump of the Belgian league is much like Scotland and that 90% of the talent resides with perhaps the top 20% of clubs.
They are going to have to up their game considerably if anyone coming in from "the system" in the summer is not also going to prove inadequate.
I agree. It seems to me like the best way the network can be successful with Charlton is if we got back to the Premier League and became the top of the network. Not sure how Duchatelet would feel about that though. The alternative option is that we remain a Championship / League one yoyo side which is in my opinion less ambitious from a business point of view.
Just skimmed through this thread. I've no idea what's going on with Thuram, but I would not be at all surprised if he's very unhappy at the situation he finds himself in and, in my view, justifiably so. Moreover, if he believes that Ben Hamer is a better keeper than he is that may well fuel his frustration rather than relieve it.
Thuram was on the bench at Standard de Liege, a team at the top of the First Division in Belgium and challenging for a Champions League place. He may or may not have been happy. He is then offered (or told to accept) a move to a Club playing in the Second Division in England and, moreover, one struggling at the bottom. He is offered no more money (I assume) and asked to live in a new and alien environment. This is not another Club in Belgium or France where he may have more cultural affinity.
Why does he move? Because he wants to play regularly and because he assumes the move represents an opportunity to play. Of course he expected to play!! That is not arrogance and it matters not one jot who told him what. He would have no doubt expected selection to be based on merit, but he would have reasonably expected to play on merit. From his perspective, why else would he have been asked to move?!!
I am not for one moment defending his behaviour (if, indeed, he is now refusing to sit on the bench), but I do not blame him at all if he is seriously p****d off. When the dim-witted Martin Samuels wrote his pathetic article in the Daily Mail, in his desperate attempt to find a conspiracy with which to attack the new owner he missed what is now blindingly obvious. Whoever decided which players should move from Standard to Charlton in January was well intended, but they screwed up. One of the biggest losers from the errors made was Yohann Thuram Ulien. He may well know that and that he would have been better served, professionally and perhaps personally, from either staying where he was or going somewhere else.
I wonder whether Duchatelet and his advisors have registered this and learnt the appropriate lessons. I hope so because such poor execution of strategy will undermine any chance of long-term success.
Great post Mundell - I agree wholeheartedly.
Got to say I agree - great post Mundell - you've thought about how the player himself feels - I understand now why he may have expected to be playing. It's difficult because managers cannot take that into account - they have to play the best person for the job and currently in this situation, that's Ben Hamer.
It seems to me that RD's crew grossly underestimated what is needed to be successful in the Champ, very possibly believeing that players from a country's top division would be capable of improving the quality of a struggling champ team. AA aside, this has clearly not been the case, whether due to lack of skill (unlikely) or physicality (my bet). SL might be a much stronger team than CAFC, but I'd bet that the rump of the Belgian league is much like Scotland and that 90% of the talent resides with perhaps the top 20% of clubs.
They are going to have to up their game considerably if anyone coming in from "the system" in the summer is not also going to prove inadequate.
Couldn't agree with this more.
The people defending the Piotr signing by saying "he was bought for next season" need to realise that if he can't get a game in this team ahead of Simon Church, he won't be ready in 10 years let alone next season.
Whichever way you box it up, better players, relegation with much lower revenue, the experiment will cost money that won't be generated in the short or medium term at Charlton. If and when RD accepts that, he may have a chance.
Doesn't bode well for the future for us getting anyone decent from Liege if he goes back and tells them all how sh*t it is at Charlton
Very good point... but on the other hand Ajdarovic, Reza and Nego (on the bench) are all getting a look in. Riga coached at Liege and will be seen as a fair judge by Duchatelet... and he has put Hamer in goal every game.
If Thuram goes back and says don't go to Charlton they are too good and you won't get a game then hopefully only the hardworking players who are willing to fight for their place will want to come.
Doesn't bode well for the future for us getting anyone decent from Liege if he goes back and tells them all how sh*t it is at Charlton
Very good point... but on the other hand Ajdarovic, Reza and Nego (on the bench) are all getting a look in. Riga coached at Liege and will be seen as a fair judge by Duchatelet... and he has put Hamer in goal every game.
Also it presumes that Liege players / staff rate Thuram at all and will listen to anything he has to say at Liege (?)
Cedric Evina pulled a similar stunt last July. He was invited to our pre-season training camp in Spain, and failed to turn up at the airport. "My agent has advised me not to go," he said: "Contract negotiations in Dubai." Good old Chris Powell forgave him later - and actually played him in the first team this season.
Outrageous. Cedric Evina: either you are with us, collectively as a squad - or you can go straight to Dubai and ask your precious agent if they'll have you at Hayes & Yeading.
Whichever way you box it up, better players, relegation with much lower revenue, the experiment will cost money that won't be generated in the short or medium term at Charlton. If and when RD accepts that, he may have a chance.
Anyone seen Anil Koc?
Yes for the U21s and he is worse than what we already have in the Academy. Do not see the point of him being here, same applies to Polish Pete and Thuram.
Cedric Evina pulled a similar stunt last July. He was invited to our pre-season training camp in Spain, and failed to turn up at the airport. "My agent has advised me not to go," he said: "Contract negotiations in Dubai." Good old Chris Powell forgave him later - and actually played him in the first team this season.
Outrageous. Cedric Evina: either you are with us, collectively as a squad - or you can go straight to Dubai and ask your precious agent if they'll have you at Hayes & Yeading.
The difference being that Evina was not under contract at the time.
hold on so Thurman goes back to Sub Standard Leige and tells em " how shit Charlton are" --------------i know they might not been that sharp over there but im sure they might respond " and you couldnt get a game"
Cedric Evina pulled a similar stunt last July. He was invited to our pre-season training camp in Spain, and failed to turn up at the airport. "My agent has advised me not to go," he said: "Contract negotiations in Dubai." Good old Chris Powell forgave him later - and actually played him in the first team this season.
Outrageous. Cedric Evina: either you are with us, collectively as a squad - or you can go straight to Dubai and ask your precious agent if they'll have you at Hayes & Yeading.
A lot changes in the year I remember at the time it was being rumoured that Evina was linked with Leeds, Reading and Wolves and the consensus on here was that we were going to lose a promising young player , I think that view has changed.I was very disappointed by him when watching the U21's on Monday at Brighton on You Tube.
Cedric Evina pulled a similar stunt last July. He was invited to our pre-season training camp in Spain, and failed to turn up at the airport. "My agent has advised me not to go," he said: "Contract negotiations in Dubai." Good old Chris Powell forgave him later - and actually played him in the first team this season.
Outrageous. Cedric Evina: either you are with us, collectively as a squad - or you can go straight to Dubai and ask your precious agent if they'll have you at Hayes & Yeading.
A lot changes in the year I remember at the time it was being rumoured that Evina was linked with Leeds, Reading and Wolves and the consensus on here was that we were going to lose a promising young player , I think that view has changed.I was very disappointed by him when watching the U21's on Monday at Brighton on You Tube.
Chris Powell himself told the Press: Evina was instructed with everyone in the squad to report for the pre-season training camp in Spain. Evina said Yes - and then didn't turn up at the airport. Later: "I haven't got a contract - it's in the hands of my agent in Dubai."
So, there was one place vacant on that vital week before the season kicked off at Bournemouth. Any one of our Under-21s would have leapt at the chance. Evina's arrogant conceit and sheer rudeness towards his manager and team-mates was appalling, and that it why Powell let us know what happened.
It's a measure of Powell's generous good nature that he gave Evina a place in the first-team a few weeks later. As for Evina, now and at the end of this season? Ask his agent in Dubai.
Cedric Evina pulled a similar stunt last July. He was invited to our pre-season training camp in Spain, and failed to turn up at the airport. "My agent has advised me not to go," he said: "Contract negotiations in Dubai." Good old Chris Powell forgave him later - and actually played him in the first team this season.
Outrageous. Cedric Evina: either you are with us, collectively as a squad - or you can go straight to Dubai and ask your precious agent if they'll have you at Hayes & Yeading.
A lot changes in the year I remember at the time it was being rumoured that Evina was linked with Leeds, Reading and Wolves and the consensus on here was that we were going to lose a promising young player , I think that view has changed.I was very disappointed by him when watching the U21's on Monday at Brighton on You Tube.
Chris Powell himself told the Press: Evina was instructed with everyone in the squad to report for the pre-season training camp in Spain. Evina said Yes - and then didn't turn up at the airport. Later: "I haven't got a contract - it's in the hands of my agent in Dubai."
So, there was one place vacant on that vital week before the season kicked off at Bournemouth. Any one of our Under-21s would have leapt at the chance. Evina's arrogant conceit and sheer rudeness towards his manager and team-mates was appalling, and that it why Powell let us know what happened.
It's a measure of Powell's generous good nature that he gave Evina a place in the first-team a few weeks later. As for Evina, now and at the end of this season? Ask his agent in Dubai.
As I noted above, if Thuram has refused to sit on the bench then that is inexcusable. However, I do have some sympathy with him and if I were in his position I would be seriously p****d off too.
However, I had no sympathy with Evina last summer. In my view he was being greedy, arrogant and perhaps even delusional and, as we can now see all too clearly, he was lucky to be offered any sort of contract with Charlton, let alone the more attractive 2-yr deal he was presumably seeking.
I don't think there is any similarity between the situation facing the two players and I wouldn't compare Thuram with Evina.
Just skimmed through this thread. I've no idea what's going on with Thuram, but I would not be at all surprised if he's very unhappy at the situation he finds himself in and, in my view, justifiably so. Moreover, if he believes that Ben Hamer is a better keeper than he is that may well fuel his frustration rather than relieve it.
Thuram was on the bench at Standard de Liege, a team at the top of the First Division in Belgium and challenging for a Champions League place. He may or may not have been happy. He is then offered (or told to accept) a move to a Club playing in the Second Division in England and, moreover, one struggling at the bottom. He is offered no more money (I assume) and asked to live in a new and alien environment. This is not another Club in Belgium or France where he may have more cultural affinity.
Why does he move? Because he wants to play regularly and because he assumes the move represents an opportunity to play. Of course he expected to play!! That is not arrogance and it matters not one jot who told him what. He would have no doubt expected selection to be based on merit, but he would have reasonably expected to play on merit. From his perspective, why else would he have been asked to move?!!
I am not for one moment defending his behaviour (if, indeed, he is now refusing to sit on the bench), but I do not blame him at all if he is seriously p****d off. When the dim-witted Martin Samuels wrote his pathetic article in the Daily Mail, in his desperate attempt to find a conspiracy with which to attack the new owner he missed what is now blindingly obvious. Whoever decided which players should move from Standard to Charlton in January was well intended, but they screwed up. One of the biggest losers from the errors made was Yohann Thuram Ulien. He may well know that and that he would have been better served, professionally and perhaps personally, from either staying where he was or going somewhere else.
I wonder whether Duchatelet and his advisors have registered this and learnt the appropriate lessons. I hope so because such poor execution of strategy will undermine any chance of long-term success.
Agree with all of the above and add that I understand he was hoping for game time to enhance his chances of going to the World cup with France.
Doesn't bode well for the future for us getting anyone decent from Liege if he goes back and tells them all how sh*t it is at Charlton
Very good point... but on the other hand Ajdarovic, Reza and Nego (on the bench) are all getting a look in. Riga coached at Liege and will be seen as a fair judge by Duchatelet... and he has put Hamer in goal every game.
I don't think we needed Riga to assure us that Hamer is a better GK than Thuram. Obviously RD thought it was worth sacking Powell over.
Comments
Assuming we stay up, the reason that I (and some others) have been so optimistic about next season is precisely because if Staprix can supply six players within a few weeks, imagine what can be done May-August whilst ten players signed over the last three years ago quietly leave.
The opportunity and the strategy is there. It is the execution as Mundell mentions which is key and must be delivered, including retention of the best out of contract players. If the majority of Hamer, Morrison, Dervite and Poyet stay and we can tap into the Liege European/African scouting network then I foresee a mid-table team at worst.
Mistakes will be made in the execution and national journalists will exploit the situation (Samuels wrote about Watford too!) but overall the potential is there. So the question as to who is responsible for acquiring these players remains - because it ain't a committee! Is it Riga or another coach who will head up 2014/15 who states the requirement - surely it has to be someone with ownership of the results.
Back to the goalkeeping situation with Hamer playing so well - a priority to sign him up surely as he is proven at this level. But if he goes, he goes and someone needs to secure a keeper as good if not better if CAFC is to realise its potential.
The player marks on this site and all of the comments tell a story about each player and every game. One can be sure that the footballing staff at CAFC are watching the same players and games with the advantage of technology like Prozone. They will know the gaps and weak points in the squad and Duchatelet has the wealth. So the question is do we have someone who can land the target players in spite of the Charlton brand being a tad lower in the last few years than we would like it to be.
They are going to have to up their game considerably if anyone coming in from "the system" in the summer is not also going to prove inadequate.
The people defending the Piotr signing by saying "he was bought for next season" need to realise that if he can't get a game in this team ahead of Simon Church, he won't be ready in 10 years let alone next season.
Grossly underestimated what is needed here.
Anyone seen Anil Koc?
Outrageous. Cedric Evina: either you are with us, collectively as a squad - or you can go straight to Dubai and ask your precious agent if they'll have you at Hayes & Yeading.
So, there was one place vacant on that vital week before the season kicked off at Bournemouth. Any one of our Under-21s would have leapt at the chance. Evina's arrogant conceit and sheer rudeness towards his manager and team-mates was appalling, and that it why Powell let us know what happened.
It's a measure of Powell's generous good nature that he gave Evina a place in the first-team a few weeks later. As for Evina, now and at the end of this season? Ask his agent in Dubai.
However, I had no sympathy with Evina last summer. In my view he was being greedy, arrogant and perhaps even delusional and, as we can now see all too clearly, he was lucky to be offered any sort of contract with Charlton, let alone the more attractive 2-yr deal he was presumably seeking.
I don't think there is any similarity between the situation facing the two players and I wouldn't compare Thuram with Evina.