Airman, no one cares about what you have to say on these petty ideas, we support our club because it's in our blood, that will NEVER be determined by the owner of the club, fair play you worked for the club but you don't anymore, so stop being the ultimate pessimist
Well you're wrong on that. I for one care what Airman has to say because, whether I agree with the conclusions or not, it's very usually based on sound information.
For example, the coming together of the G21 made me uncomfortable, but not all because I thought the militant message coming out of it wasn't quite right. In some part, it was because it brought together a group of people who had some genuine insight to the club over the years and quite some talent pool to boot. Any suggestion this is a group of people wanting to relive past glories isn't worth the time it takes to read - why would such people feel motivated to come together in the way they did?
I like Jose Riga but that doesn't mean I thought the decision to sack him was right. I certainly prefer RD to TJ/MS, but that doesn't mean I should stand by an watch everything that he does without a murmur if it's not to the benefit of this historic club.
My biggest concern about the G21 was the potential for division, but I'm more relaxed about that today because the supporter base is divided along these lines. The only thing that will unite us is a clear picture of what's planned for our club, whether than comes from RD or anyone else. (Also, I'm not convinced, despite the monikers ascribed, that the G21 has any intention of being a permanent organisation in competition with the Trust, supporters club etc).
As for Airman, I felt that in the aftermath of his sacking there were some fairly bitter responses and he was easy to bait. But things have moved on, and a number of us are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you really think he has an axe to grind with the club itself then you're overlooking years of behaviour that clearly shows his commitment to the well-being of the club. That's his primary motivation from my observation, and he is well qualified to comment on many questions about why the club do certain things.
Despite Addicted's impassioned response to Airman's challenge, I found nothing controversial about what Airman had written - I thought it was objective and focused - note that Addicted didn't actually answer the core question. That says to me there's a greater interest in sniping at Airman than shedding light on the truth, which is a shame.
Airman's initial suggestion of a strike appears to have been rejected. He seems to have accepted that. It doesn't mean, however, that there's not good reason why it's been suggested. Nor does it justify slagging him off at every opportunity. Look beyond the personality and ask yourself about the motivations, both in general and specific to the knowledge driving the suggestion; maybe we'll find a little more unity if we look for the truth rather than reject the messenger.
Coming back to the original point of discussion, I don't disagree with airman's point. During times such as those that club have been going through recently, we need certainty and that's something that has seemingly not been achieved by RD and co.
I do however think it's radical to suggest that supporters should not renew their season tickets and so on, at a time where it seems the club needs it's supporters the most. But I think everyone in this discussion that is getting hot headed about airman's original point needs to backtrack to the time at which he said it was only a suggestion.
I am only a young Charlton fan and I know that there will be things going on behind closed doors at the club that many of you will have much more of an idea about than I do, however I do know that I, myself, felt much happier about the club as a whole before the takeover as I believed there to be much more of a sense of this "certainty" that I seem to keep harking on about than there is now.
And no matter how young I am, it is still of my knowledge of the things that airman has done for our Charlton in the past. I believe without radical action back then, when it was most needed, we may not have our Charlton today, hell we might not even have a Charlton at all, so I don't think that we should be so quick to scrutinise airman for what was only a suggestion regarding the uncertainty of the club that we all love.
Well said fella.
Agree. Great to know that a younger generation has a sense of our history. And us old gits need to listen to people like @Charltonsteve97 so that we know what is important about CAFC to this younger generation. See you've just joined, hope you will stick around and not be put off by threads like this!
It also made me wonder whether there should be a voluntary option to have the "year first saw CAFC game" underneath the avatar, so that can people put someone's comments into that context, and get an idea of which generation someone belongs to.
Coming back to the original point of discussion, I don't disagree with airman's point. During times such as those that club have been going through recently, we need certainty and that's something that has seemingly not been achieved by RD and co.
I do however think it's radical to suggest that supporters should not renew their season tickets and so on, at a time where it seems the club needs it's supporters the most. But I think everyone in this discussion that is getting hot headed about airman's original point needs to backtrack to the time at which he said it was only a suggestion.
I am only a young Charlton fan and I know that there will be things going on behind closed doors at the club that many of you will have much more of an idea about than I do, however I do know that I, myself, felt much happier about the club as a whole before the takeover as I believed there to be much more of a sense of this "certainty" that I seem to keep harking on about than there is now.
And no matter how young I am, it is still of my knowledge of the things that airman has done for our Charlton in the past. I believe without radical action back then, when it was most needed, we may not have our Charlton today, hell we might not even have a Charlton at all, so I don't think that we should be so quick to scrutinise airman for what was only a suggestion regarding the uncertainty of the club that we all love.
Well said fella.
Agree. Great to know that a younger generation has a sense of our history. And us old gits need to listen to people like @Charltonsteve97 so that we know what is important about CAFC to this younger generation. See you've just joined, hope you will stick around and not be put off by threads like this!
It also made me wonder whether there should be a voluntary option to have the "year first saw CAFC game" underneath the avatar, so that can people put someone's comments into that context, and get an idea of which generation someone belongs to.
thanks very much, I'm interested on everyone's views on what's going on at the club, gives me a much better idea about situations such as these. So I'll probably be sticking around a while.
It also made me wonder whether there should be a voluntary option to have the "year first saw CAFC game" underneath the avatar, so that can people put someone's comments into that context, and get an idea of which generation someone belongs to.
I understand what you're saying but don't necessarily agree for a couple of reasons. One it would likely lead to some using it for or against others 'Ba you've only supported the club for x years - what do you know' or the opposite 'You are a dinosaur'!!
But also what is happening now is what's important to supporters and every comment or opinion should be treated on merit (I know you're not saying they shouldn't). I'm aware of the old adage of 'those who do not learn from history are condemned to make the same mistakes' - but football is here and now. I'm an old git who went to his first game in the 60's and I'll have controversial views the same as a 15 year old who is a new supporter and I'm just as likely (and justified on many occasions I'm sure) to be shot down in flames the same as a relative newbie will. It's the opinion not the experience or generation that's important as far as I'm concerned.
So again, Addicketd, how do you come to assert, on here, on Sunday evening - on page 13 of the Kermorgant thread - that I have renewed my season ticket. How else do you know this? Perfectly reasonable question, which you haven't answered.
It was purely a guess and to be honest I was fishing.
Like you, I'm a Charltonaholic and we'd probably both renew whatever the circumstances. Also knowing that you bought your own ST whilst employed by the Club, I thought it unlikely you wouldn't renew.
Which is why I really can't get my head round why on earth you started this thread in the first place.
I doubt if anyone would have picked up on it if you hadn't have questioned my integrity and Prague hadn't confirmed the position with his 'data protection act' post.
If you hadn't renewed and you picked up on my assertion, I would have of course apologised for the assumption- as I have to you on here before.
I'm not unaware of the irony of people leaking information about me, but your point about the robustness of the club's internal procedures is nonsense......
I understand where you are coming from with this.
There was only one opportunity to confirm the facts of the case and that disappeared when you settled 'on the steps'. Again I feel that course of action was perfectly justifiabe in your case, but for now we only have the 'official' version on record.
In any event, I did not organise and I did not seek to organise a season-ticket strike, which clearly would have needed more than a single thread on here if it was to be taken forward.
Do you seriously believe that anyone who read this thread started by you doesn't see that as an attempt at organisising a ST boycott?
Really?
A very high profile fan, who was a senior employee at the Club and who edits the largest selling CAFC fanzine, starts a thread entitled; Season-ticket strike to bring the owner to the table and now you're saying you didn't organise a ST boycott.
I raised the question of whether it was a suitable response to what was happening at the club. I was then contacted by other people who wanted to organise more immediate action. This led to a much larger meeting in the Royal Oak and further conversations between some of those people and the Trust, which continue and have been and remain completely amicable. The immediate issue - RD trying to pick the team - went away, so all parties agreed it was sensible to wait and see what happened over time.
So why didn't you mention this in the G21 thread three days later and this one would have been put to bed?
I'm not so sure about the amicable bit though - members of the Trust and the Fans Forum have contacted me to suggest that they less than happy with the way the G21 has been set up outside the 'official' fans bodies.
I find it quite amusing that I am apparently required to answer questions from people who consistently abuse me on here. Why would I take those people, hiding behind their pseudonyms, or their questions seriously? They have a fixed view about me and they are welcome to it. I've no intention of wasting any time on them.
For the record I don't include you in that group, Addickted, hence I respond. But you might answer my question in return?
I fully understand that Airman.
And I'm please that you realise that my questioning of your actions isn't either a vendetta or an anti Airman stance - not least because I know how you feel about this Club of ours - and as I've said before if things do look to be going the wrong way I will be by your side at the barricades.
However, you have ignored some of my (I believe) pertinant questions on both this and the G21 thread.
It also made me wonder whether there should be a voluntary option to have the "year first saw CAFC game" underneath the avatar, so that can people put someone's comments into that context, and get an idea of which generation someone belongs to.
I understand what you're saying but don't necessarily agree for a couple of reasons. One it would likely lead to some using it for or against others 'Ba you've only supported the club for x years - what do you know' or the opposite 'You are a dinosaur'!!
But also what is happening now is what's important to supporters and every comment or opinion should be treated on merit (I know you're not saying they shouldn't). I'm aware of the old adage of 'those who do not learn from history are condemned to make the same mistakes' - but football is here and now. I'm an old git who went to his first game in the 60's and I'll have controversial views the same as a 15 year old who is a new supporter and I'm just as likely (and justified on many occasions I'm sure) to be shot down in flames the same as a relative newbie will. It's the opinion not the experience or generation that's important as far as I'm concerned.
You are probably right there, Bob. And I expect the admin guys already thought about it and came to the same conclusion. However @charltonsteve97 showed us that people's opinions do not necessarily automatically follow one way or another by age. You've said that too. I thought of it because in this thread there was some "ageism" going on, when it all turned nasty.
I was speaking to Kevin Rye of Supporters Direct about this, this week. He confirmed that most Trusts are driven by people in late middle age. To some extent that's inevitable, but Trusts have to work hard to ensure that they are listening to the views of the younger generation. CAS Trust vice-chair is in fact in his mid 20s. It would be good to have more people of that generation actively involved. But more of that generation needs to give their time to being involved, too.
People can moan about Stephans leaving all they like, but without tht poyet never would have been able to break through.. Guess that doesn't fit with the agenda though
And how long will Poyet be staying ..... ?
Stephans didn't want to sign a contract so would be gone in the summer anyway, or is that another fact to ignore for the theory ?
I don't recall having a theory, some people can start an argument in empty room.
I think the important stuff will never be answered
The truth about kermy will never really come out in its entirety but I think those who have delved to seek from their own sources will agree that what I posted was closest to the truth
The truth about RD will never come out as he is a successful and well established owner of football clubs
The only way we will form opinion is by watching for ourselves
Very few I speak to give two hoots about his other clubs or other interests but solely about cafc and what he does with us
All the over examining and watching will lead to misguided guesses even if they are made with the best intentions
It will lead you to paranoia and insanity
KM has said and this is a fact
That they miss calculated the quality required
They made some mistakes they tried to get deals over the line
But more importantly that they intend to get our work done early this window by the end of June
The pitch will be fixed
The training ground and academy will be superb
There is season tickets at 150 quid FFs
For an adult
So what if it's next to the away end in the east for people struggling to get by or a family of 4 for example that is the best value ticket I have ever heard of
RD so far has not shown 1 iota to any of you that he is a danger to our club that warrants a view of caution or mistrust
Just sit back and enjoy what unfolds and if and it's a big If in 18months to 2 yrs time he has made some horrific errors and we are looking at football in the lower tiers I will be the first to say I trusted this man and I was wrong
But right now I wouldn't mind RD being my dad I think he has done a great job
Top post. History is history. What goes on now is whats important.
I have not seen anything that makes me think that RD as a serious investor is not going to make his investment count.
He has bought "the golden ticket" one that Standard Liege will never give him despite access to the Champions League, namely a club in one of the worlds greatest, most populous cities with millions in the catchmement area, on the edge of huge developments and with a pass to the most luctrative league in the world.
Let us start looking upwards, not downwards. Mistakes were made. I operate under the maxim that "he who never made a mistake, never made anything".
RD and KM may have made errors in the "window". They made one huge call and that was bringing in Riga. That was MASSIVE. No one here can accurately predict (much as we loved him) that CP would have kept us up because he never got that chance, and frankly after the Blades shambles, (whether he was hobbled or not), it looked very unlikely.
Work to upgrade the training ground, the pitch is part of something that has to be in a good direction.
I remain positive. (I would have been with RD in place even if we we went down). Its more positive that we didn't of course. I believe that RD and KM will have discovered that the golden ticket they purchased is more studdied with jewells than they realised (despite the lack of signings) because they will have realised the value of a team largely built by Charlton. Fox, Poyet, Harriot, Cousins, Solly and Piggott plus those who follow on are the self built now and future of our club.
I think the important stuff will never be answered
The truth about kermy will never really come out in its entirety but I think those who have delved to seek from their own sources will agree that what I posted was closest to the truth
The truth about RD will never come out as he is a successful and well established owner of football clubs
The only way we will form opinion is by watching for ourselves
Very few I speak to give two hoots about his other clubs or other interests but solely about cafc and what he does with us
All the over examining and watching will lead to misguided guesses even if they are made with the best intentions
It will lead you to paranoia and insanity
KM has said and this is a fact
That they miss calculated the quality required
They made some mistakes they tried to get deals over the line
But more importantly that they intend to get our work done early this window by the end of June
The pitch will be fixed
The training ground and academy will be superb
There is season tickets at 150 quid FFs
For an adult
So what if it's next to the away end in the east for people struggling to get by or a family of 4 for example that is the best value ticket I have ever heard of
RD so far has not shown 1 iota to any of you that he is a danger to our club that warrants a view of caution or mistrust
Just sit back and enjoy what unfolds and if and it's a big If in 18months to 2 yrs time he has made some horrific errors and we are looking at football in the lower tiers I will be the first to say I trusted this man and I was wrong
But right now I wouldn't mind RD being my dad I think he has done a great job
Top post. History is history. What goes on now is whats important.
I have not seen anything that makes me think that RD as a serious investor is not going to make his investment count.
He has bought "the golden ticket" one that Standard Liege will never give him despite access to the Champions League, namely a club in one of the worlds greatest, most populous cities with millions in the catchmement area, on the edge of huge developments and with a pass to the most luctrative league in the world.
Let us start looking upwards, not downwards. Mistakes were made. I operate under the maxim that "he who never made a mistake, never made anything".
RD and KM may have made errors in the "window". They made one huge call and that was bringing in Riga. That was MASSIVE. No one here can accurately predict (much as we loved him) that CP would have kept us up because he never got that chance, and frankly after the Blades shambles, (whether he was hobbled or not), it looked very unlikely.
Work to upgrade the training ground, the pitch is part of something that has to be in a good direction.
I remain positive. (I would have been with RD in place even if we we went down). Its more positive that we didn't of course. I believe that RD and KM will have discovered that the golden ticket they purchased is more studdied with jewells than they realised (despite the lack of signings) because they will have realised the value of a team largely built by Charlton. Fox, Poyet, Harriot, Cousins, Solly and Piggott plus those who follow on are the self built now and future of our club.
LLL&BH!
Excellent post.
And another jewel they have discovered is the passion of our support.
I can't help but feel that this all points to a very bright next few years.
As a Labour parliamentary candidate and councillor Airman will remember, or be aware of at least as he is a youngster, Harold Wilson's famous quote that a week is a long time in politics.
I think the rest of us should reflect on that quote of Mr Wilson too. Airman started this thread in the immediate aftermath of Chris Powell's sacking. Many of us felt outrage at this decision at the time and perhaps (I do not presume to speak for him) this was Airman's reaction.
Time has elapsed, we are in the championship for another season and circumstances have changed.
All I know is that when it comes to the Club I trust and listen to Airman, Prague and others even if I may not agree with or find what is said hard to believe. I know that their motivation is as mine when it comes to the Club as they have a track record proving that.
It's an old fashioned concept I know but Airman Brown deserves a lot more respect than some show him on here. Without him and others like him we may not have a club to support today and that fact should not be forgotten.
That's not to say questions should not be asked. They should but leave out the personal crap such as embittered ex- employee etc, etc. His track record has earned him more respect than that.
As a Labour parliamentary candidate and councillor Airman will remember, or be aware of at least as he is a youngster, Harold Wilson's famous quote that a week is a long time in politics.
I think the rest of us should reflect on that quote of Mr Wilson too. Airman started this thread in the immediate aftermath of Chris Powell's sacking. Many of us felt outrage at this decision at the time and perhaps (I do not presume to speak for him) this was Airman's reaction.
Time has elapsed, we are in the championship for another season and circumstances have changed.
All I know is that when it comes to the Club I trust and listen to Airman, Prague and others even if I may not agree with or find what is said hard to believe. I know that their motivation is as mine when it comes to the Club as they have a track record proving that.
It's an old fashioned concept I know but Airman Brown deserves a lot more respect than some show him on here. Without him and others like him we may not have a club to support today and that fact should not be forgotten.
That's not to say questions should not be asked. They should but leave out the personal crap such as embittered ex- employee etc, etc. His track record has earned him more respect than that.
Final three paragraphs are absolutely spot on.
As I have mentioned on ITTV, this club will be better run on a day-to-day basis with him, amongst others, back on the payroll.
Forget all the rubbish people give about the past, need new views blah blah blah. Blend the old and new together.
I don't think it will be a strike. People just won't bother to renew and drift into the mist. Many will say good riddance but ultimately we need a strong fan base to secure our future. Saturday was particularly worrying with reports of only 11,000 odd.
Until a couple of weeks ago, I felt really bad for feeling so disheartened with the club that I wasn't going to renew my season ticket. Reading this thread & other comments on this forum recently, it looks like there will be a mass exodus of season ticket holders at the end of the season.
It's sad that we feel this way but people have had enough!!
My great uncle played for Charlton, my nan and grandad used to watch them, I started going just before we left Selhurst, had a season ticket since '94. Well done Roland and Katrien, you've pissed all over all of that.
Season ticket boycott, protest, whatever - count me in.
Comments
It also made me wonder whether there should be a voluntary option to have the "year first saw CAFC game" underneath the avatar, so that can people put someone's comments into that context, and get an idea of which generation someone belongs to.
But also what is happening now is what's important to supporters and every comment or opinion should be treated on merit (I know you're not saying they shouldn't). I'm aware of the old adage of 'those who do not learn from history are condemned to make the same mistakes' - but football is here and now. I'm an old git who went to his first game in the 60's and I'll have controversial views the same as a 15 year old who is a new supporter and I'm just as likely (and justified on many occasions I'm sure) to be shot down in flames the same as a relative newbie will. It's the opinion not the experience or generation that's important as far as I'm concerned.
Like you, I'm a Charltonaholic and we'd probably both renew whatever the circumstances. Also knowing that you bought your own ST whilst employed by the Club, I thought it unlikely you wouldn't renew.
Which is why I really can't get my head round why on earth you started this thread in the first place.
I doubt if anyone would have picked up on it if you hadn't have questioned my integrity and Prague hadn't confirmed the position with his 'data protection act' post.
If you hadn't renewed and you picked up on my assertion, I would have of course apologised for the assumption- as I have to you on here before. I understand where you are coming from with this.
There was only one opportunity to confirm the facts of the case and that disappeared when you settled 'on the steps'. Again I feel that course of action was perfectly justifiabe in your case, but for now we only have the 'official' version on record. Do you seriously believe that anyone who read this thread started by you doesn't see that as an attempt at organisising a ST boycott?
Really?
A very high profile fan, who was a senior employee at the Club and who edits the largest selling CAFC fanzine, starts a thread entitled; Season-ticket strike to bring the owner to the table and now you're saying you didn't organise a ST boycott.
I'm flabbergasted. So why didn't you mention this in the G21 thread three days later and this one would have been put to bed?
I'm not so sure about the amicable bit though - members of the Trust and the Fans Forum have contacted me to suggest that they less than happy with the way the G21 has been set up outside the 'official' fans bodies. No, but it's been bought up time and time again by people - including you - as to a reason why RD is a wrong 'un.
It was a decision made by the owner. You might not agree with it, but he made that decision, which he believed to be in the best interest of the Club. I fully understand that Airman.
And I'm please that you realise that my questioning of your actions isn't either a vendetta or an anti Airman stance - not least because I know how you feel about this Club of ours - and as I've said before if things do look to be going the wrong way I will be by your side at the barricades.
However, you have ignored some of my (I believe) pertinant questions on both this and the G21 thread.
I was speaking to Kevin Rye of Supporters Direct about this, this week. He confirmed that most Trusts are driven by people in late middle age. To some extent that's inevitable, but Trusts have to work hard to ensure that they are listening to the views of the younger generation. CAS Trust vice-chair is in fact in his mid 20s. It would be good to have more people of that generation actively involved. But more of that generation needs to give their time to being involved, too.
I have not seen anything that makes me think that RD as a serious investor is not going to make his investment count.
He has bought "the golden ticket" one that Standard Liege will never give him despite access to the Champions League, namely a club in one of the worlds greatest, most populous cities with millions in the catchmement area, on the edge of huge developments and with a pass to the most luctrative league in the world.
Let us start looking upwards, not downwards. Mistakes were made. I operate under the maxim that "he who never made a mistake, never made anything".
RD and KM may have made errors in the "window". They made one huge call and that was bringing in Riga. That was MASSIVE. No one here can accurately predict (much as we loved him) that CP would have kept us up because he never got that chance, and frankly after the Blades shambles, (whether he was hobbled or not), it looked very unlikely.
Work to upgrade the training ground, the pitch is part of something that has to be in a good direction.
I remain positive. (I would have been with RD in place even if we we went down). Its more positive that we didn't of course. I believe that RD and KM will have discovered that the golden ticket they purchased is more studdied with jewells than they realised (despite the lack of signings) because they will have realised the value of a team largely built by Charlton. Fox, Poyet, Harriot, Cousins, Solly and Piggott plus those who follow on are the self built now and future of our club.
LLL&BH!
And another jewel they have discovered is the passion of our support.
I can't help but feel that this all points to a very bright next few years.
Time will tell.
I think the rest of us should reflect on that quote of Mr Wilson too. Airman started this thread in the immediate aftermath of Chris Powell's sacking. Many of us felt outrage at this decision at the time and perhaps (I do not presume to speak for him) this was Airman's reaction.
Time has elapsed, we are in the championship for another season and circumstances have changed.
All I know is that when it comes to the Club I trust and listen to Airman, Prague and others even if I may not agree with or find what is said hard to believe. I know that their motivation is as mine when it comes to the Club as they have a track record proving that.
It's an old fashioned concept I know but Airman Brown deserves a lot more respect than some show him on here. Without him and others like him we may not have a club to support today and that fact should not be forgotten.
That's not to say questions should not be asked. They should but leave out the personal crap such as embittered ex- employee etc, etc. His track record has earned him more respect than that.
As I have mentioned on ITTV, this club will be better run on a day-to-day basis with him, amongst others, back on the payroll.
Forget all the rubbish people give about the past, need new views blah blah blah. Blend the old and new together.
I wonder how many half season tickets they've shifted? Would be surprised if it was more than 10
It's sad that we feel this way but people have had enough!!
Season ticket boycott, protest, whatever - count me in.