<blockquote class="Quote" rel="Sparrows Lane Lion"><blockquote class="Quote" rel="Bryan_Kynsie">I can't remember anything like this happening at the Valley in the past. Even in the 70s we managed to survive without this attempt at protection - in those days we had the privilege of several hundred Millwall in the Covered End and routine fighting in the ground.
What intelligence was so scary that it made this essential in 2013? By 'eck i am glad that whatever it was that was going to happen, didn't!
Football needs to learn one fundamental lesson from this: pandering to a fear of aggression is not the future of crowd control. If people must be held back then it has to be the away contingent. And I say that as someone who goes to far more away games than home. I have seen no coherent argument for not holding back the Millwall fans including the many decent normal ones, until home fans had cleared the vicinity. That's how we got treated at the Den a few years back. Slippery slope this, if the violent minority are getting treated well while everyone else especially the elderly and infirm, is being inconvenienced.
Time to move on but a lesson has to be learned.
</blockquote>
Again, read the reasons why this was done. The fear of aggression & violence was due to Charlton fans - firstly due to them waiting for Palace and secondly for throwing flares, ripping seats etc at The Den.
They wanted the target of Charton fans anger to be gone. Rather than holding us back and waiting for Charlton fans to gather & wait for us, they diverted you and got us out of there a quickly as possible.
If you hadn't have kicked off with police and played up inside the ground at The Den (& more recently Palace), then we'd all have been let out together like we were after the 4-4 game.</blockquote>
I can't remember anything like this happening at the Valley in the past. Even in the 70s we managed to survive without this attempt at protection - in those days we had the privilege of several hundred Millwall in the Covered End and routine fighting in the ground.
What intelligence was so scary that it made this essential in 2013? By 'eck i am glad that whatever it was that was going to happen, didn't!
Football needs to learn one fundamental lesson from this: pandering to a fear of aggression is not the future of crowd control. If people must be held back then it has to be the away contingent. And I say that as someone who goes to far more away games than home. I have seen no coherent argument for not holding back the Millwall fans including the many decent normal ones, until home fans had cleared the vicinity. That's how we got treated at the Den a few years back. Slippery slope this, if the violent minority are getting treated well while everyone else especially the elderly and infirm, is being inconvenienced.
Time to move on but a lesson has to be learned.
Again, read the reasons why this was done. The fear of aggression & violence was due to Charlton fans - firstly due to them waiting for Palace and secondly for throwing flares, ripping seats etc at The Den.
They wanted the target of Charton fans anger to be gone. Rather than holding us back and waiting for Charlton fans to gather & wait for us, they diverted you and got us out of there a quickly as possible.
If you hadn't have kicked off with police and played up inside the ground at The Den (& more recently Palace), then we'd all have been let out together like we were after the 4-4 game.
Lol. I think for that one SLL, you win a Charlton blanket and flask. Very good.
Did ME not say in his email that police were expecting 'retribution' from certain millwall fans. That sort of makes his point invalid if that was the case
So tell me, on that basis, why were Charlton kept behind at the toolbox?
Someone from your club has confirmed that's the reasons why, did nobody read the email response from Everitt? Only seems like WSS did.
Charlton had numerous complaints from fans about the handling of the Palace game and they seeked to avoid that occuring again.
As for why you were held after the 4-0, it's generally to do with the congestion at SB station. With smaller away followings they'll restrict Millwall fans for 15 minutes or so to let them get their trains, for bigger away followings they can't hold Millwall back for 30+ minutes as 2,500 Charlton wait for trains.
Over 3,000 Sparrows, who do you think we are, crystal palace?
He's right about our behaviour being why we were kept back. Still would've made sense in my opinion to keep them back but that discussion is past the point of being boring.
He certainly has a point doesn't he. This is the first time this has ever happened like this and I can't believe it's merely coincidental to some of our 'fans' playing up at Palace and at their place (thus throwing down the guantlet to their lot).
It's uncomfortable for us all, but we have to accept that if we are going to attract an element who want to chuck stuff around and act like pratts then the approach the police take is likely to change*.
Time for a few of us to have a long hard look at our own behaviour.
*this doesn't mean I agree with what they did btw because I don't, but plenty said there would be repercussions at the time.
Not sure why SLL is getting stick, if we hadn't caused trouble at the Den and then at Selhurst then as he rightly says we'd have all been let out together. And it would probably have been a 3pm kick off. But because we caused trouble and there were rumours of Millwall coming to get their own back (which never really materialised), we got all this.
Next season we probably won't get the lower tier at the Den either.
He certainly has a point doesn't he. This is the first time this has ever happened like this and I can't believe it's merely coincidental to some of our 'fans' playing up at Palace and at their place (thus throwing down the guantlet to their lot).
It's uncomfortable for us all, but we have to accept that if we are going to attract an element who want to chuck stuff around and act like pratts then the approach the police take is likely to change*.
Time for a few of us to have a long hard look at our own behaviour.
*this doesn't mean I agree with what they did btw because I don't, but plenty said there would be repercussions at the time.
Just following on from this, I wanted to share my experiences at Palace and on Saturday.
After the Palace game I got to Norwood Junction station and was walking alongside (but not with) a pretty rowdy group of lads. I'm a 37 year old guy, so could easily have been mistaken for being with the group. As I got near the platform the police tried to get everyone on to a train heading to London Bridge. (the opposite way I wanted to go) This was the cue for the group to go into total meltdown and they started going mental at the police, loads of pushing, posturing and abuse. I got swept along and was almost put on the train but I managed to get close to the police line and eventually got my voice heard by a female PC. I calmly and politely said that I wanted to go on a train going in the opposite direction. Her response was to let me past her, and on my way I went, I think I was the only person who didn't get put on the train. But coincidentally I was the only person who just asked in a normal non-intimidating manner.
When I left the game on Saturday I got to the line of police horses blocking the way to the level crossing. I watched as people switched over to furious outrage mode and started shouting abuse at the police. I managed to get myself and my girlfriend to the front and explained in a polite way to a PC that I'd parked my car outside my friends house in Hickin Close and "could we come through please?" They let us through. As we walked down the road I looked back and a few other people were also let through, I'm presuming they'd just done the same as me.
Now I'm not saying that this would have worked for everyone on Saturday and I'm sure there were loads of people who were genuinely made to walk further despite not acting up at all. But people moan on here about being "treated like scum" and yet when they're put in a situations like this they immediately start acting like scum, what do they expect?!
So tell me, on that basis, why were Charlton kept behind at the toolbox?
Someone from your club has confirmed that's the reasons why, did nobody read the email response from Everitt? Only seems like WSS did.
Charlton had numerous complaints from fans about the handling of the Palace game and they seeked to avoid that occuring again.
As for why you were held after the 4-0, it's generally to do with the congestion at SB station. With smaller away followings they'll restrict Millwall fans for 15 minutes or so to let them get their trains, for bigger away followings they can't hold Millwall back for 30+ minutes as 2,500 Charlton wait for trains.
SLL
"the toolbox" is of course the New Den. It is the home of the Spanners. Geddit? see, we do humour too.
We were held back at the Toolbox. That was clearly a pre-arranged decision. Nothing to do with the regrettable behaviour that day of a few chavs that have latched on to us. Therefore it was for our safety, as doubtless the tannoy announcer said, as they say all over the world when they tell away fans this. So if they were concerned for your safety on Saturday they'd have held you back too.
Some of my fellow CL'ers may think you are being serious, but I'm not having it. You are taking the piss. Good luck to you. My beef is with the police.
Personally I think the only solution to ensure normal fans can go about their normal football business, is to ban all Millwall fans from all away games.
Personally I think the only solution to ensure normal fans can go about their normal football business, is to ban all Millwall fans from all away games.
Good idea. They seem to already have implemented banning Millwall fans from their HOME games.
Personally I think the only solution to ensure normal fans can go about their normal football business, is to ban all Millwall fans from all away games.
Good idea. They seem to already have implemented banning Millwall fans from their HOME games.
No no SHG. You don't understand. the vast majority of the 35,000 Spanners going to Wembley have never gone to normal games. Just like my mate out here. Got his ticket for Wembley but admitted to me that he's never been to the New Toolbox, and could not name any of the current Millwall squad who'd also played for Charlton.
I got kettled with a load of Millwall louts before the away game which was fun. Was the only one not singing. So yeah, Millwall can get messed around at home as well.
Despite my moaning beforehand, it wasn't too bad personally on Saturday. The lower north was fairly quiet then we walked up to the Sun in the Sands. Thankfully that meant I missed the actual problems that were thrown up.
Comments
What intelligence was so scary that it made this essential in 2013? By 'eck i am glad that whatever it was that was going to happen, didn't!
Football needs to learn one fundamental lesson from this: pandering to a fear of aggression is not the future of crowd control. If people must be held back then it has to be the away contingent. And I say that as someone who goes to far more away games than home. I have seen no coherent argument for not holding back the Millwall fans including the many decent normal ones, until home fans had cleared the vicinity. That's how we got treated at the Den a few years back. Slippery slope this, if the violent minority are getting treated well while everyone else especially the elderly and infirm, is being inconvenienced.
Time to move on but a lesson has to be learned.
</blockquote>
Again, read the reasons why this was done. The fear of aggression & violence was due to Charlton fans - firstly due to them waiting for Palace and secondly for throwing flares, ripping seats etc at The Den.
They wanted the target of Charton fans anger to be gone. Rather than holding us back and waiting for Charlton fans to gather & wait for us, they diverted you and got us out of there a quickly as possible.
If you hadn't have kicked off with police and played up inside the ground at The Den (& more recently Palace), then we'd all have been let out together like we were after the 4-4 game.</blockquote>
.
Charlton had numerous complaints from fans about the handling of the Palace game and they seeked to avoid that occuring again.
As for why you were held after the 4-0, it's generally to do with the congestion at SB station. With smaller away followings they'll restrict Millwall fans for 15 minutes or so to let them get their trains, for bigger away followings they can't hold Millwall back for 30+ minutes as 2,500 Charlton wait for trains.
He's right about our behaviour being why we were kept back. Still would've made sense in my opinion to keep them back but that discussion is past the point of being boring.
It's uncomfortable for us all, but we have to accept that if we are going to attract an element who want to chuck stuff around and act like pratts then the approach the police take is likely to change*.
Time for a few of us to have a long hard look at our own behaviour.
*this doesn't mean I agree with what they did btw because I don't, but plenty said there would be repercussions at the time.
Some of our fans wanted us to be more like Millwall. They've succeeded up to a point & now we're being treated a bit like their fans are.
We have a small minority of fans to blame for us being treated as more 'high risk' fans than we previously have been.
Next season we probably won't get the lower tier at the Den either.
Just following on from this, I wanted to share my experiences at Palace and on Saturday.
After the Palace game I got to Norwood Junction station and was walking alongside (but not with) a pretty rowdy group of lads.
I'm a 37 year old guy, so could easily have been mistaken for being with the group.
As I got near the platform the police tried to get everyone on to a train heading to London Bridge.
(the opposite way I wanted to go)
This was the cue for the group to go into total meltdown and they started going mental at the police, loads of pushing, posturing and abuse.
I got swept along and was almost put on the train but I managed to get close to the police line and eventually got my voice heard by a female PC.
I calmly and politely said that I wanted to go on a train going in the opposite direction.
Her response was to let me past her, and on my way I went, I think I was the only person who didn't get put on the train.
But coincidentally I was the only person who just asked in a normal non-intimidating manner.
When I left the game on Saturday I got to the line of police horses blocking the way to the level crossing.
I watched as people switched over to furious outrage mode and started shouting abuse at the police.
I managed to get myself and my girlfriend to the front and explained in a polite way to a PC that I'd parked my car outside my friends house in Hickin Close and "could we come through please?"
They let us through.
As we walked down the road I looked back and a few other people were also let through, I'm presuming they'd just done the same as me.
Now I'm not saying that this would have worked for everyone on Saturday and I'm sure there were loads of people who were genuinely made to walk further despite not acting up at all.
But people moan on here about being "treated like scum" and yet when they're put in a situations like this they immediately start acting like scum, what do they expect?!
"the toolbox" is of course the New Den. It is the home of the Spanners. Geddit? see, we do humour too.
We were held back at the Toolbox. That was clearly a pre-arranged decision. Nothing to do with the regrettable behaviour that day of a few chavs that have latched on to us. Therefore it was for our safety, as doubtless the tannoy announcer said, as they say all over the world when they tell away fans this. So if they were concerned for your safety on Saturday they'd have held you back too.
Some of my fellow CL'ers may think you are being serious, but I'm not having it. You are taking the piss. Good luck to you. My beef is with the police.
Personally I think the only solution to ensure normal fans can go about their normal football business, is to ban all Millwall fans from all away games.
Good idea. They seem to already have implemented banning Millwall fans from their HOME games.
Despite my moaning beforehand, it wasn't too bad personally on Saturday. The lower north was fairly quiet then we walked up to the Sun in the Sands. Thankfully that meant I missed the actual problems that were thrown up.