I struggle to agree with the police tactics of shutting off the way up to the level crossing, even if properly advertised to fans as it seems very counter-productive. If fans had just been able to walk through then the crowd dies down much quicker, however whilst being held stagnant the crowd just increased, in anger as well as numbers. When we were finally let through there was an almighty surge through a bottle neck, not very intelligent.
The atmosphere at this point was unbearable for some and it was heartbreaking to see a girl start fitting, with severe body seizures as she simply couldn't cope. Her (I presume) Mother was quick to help her daughter and I made the best effort I could by quickly informing an officer of occurrences, but I had a moment to reflect that the plan had surely failed in keeping people safe if this was one of the side-effects.
Make sure you write to the club And tell them about this poor young girl. They think they've had a success because no one got beat up by millwall outside the ground but her experience and a few others meant our fans got Hurt in other ways.
Nla no offence but you keep talking about "intel". Anyone would think you were the rozzer's best mate?? Who chats to the police that much?
Everyone keeps talking about those vulnerable people that were affected by having to walk a long way round, or having the police block them off from the way they wanted to go.
What if the club had gone with the police plan and allowed us to walk out side by side with Millwall fans. Do you really think these vulnerable people would have enjoyed potentially being threatened, having coins thrown, being started on etc.
I'm sorry but this is the most stupid over reaction ever. Yes the club was late telling us these plans, but if the police weren't going to hold the Millwall fans back then the club had no choice than to do what they did. People's safety is much more important than a slight inconvenience for 1 game only.
Can we please stop sounding so pathetic, find out from the police why they weren't going to keep the Millwall fans back and move on.
There's a lot of people who knew what was potentially in store Saturday and none of them to my knowledge are OB I didn't say where I heard what the OB had found out only that the OB told people weeks ago about not letting home fans out
There was a reason the OB made that stance which IMO backed up what I had been told by people who are def not OB
Wait till your elderly addick then see how you go with that one. I lived on lansdowne lane for 8 years. I know that hill. Send the away fans our the back of the east stand up charlton lane and down.
Wait till your elderly addick then see how you go with that one. I lived on lansdowne lane for 8 years. I know that hill. Send the away fans our the back of the east stand up charlton lane and down.
I'm not saying it was an ideal scenario, but would an elderly person prefer to walk up a hill they normally wouldn't have to or risk being attacked and intimidated by Millwall fans? Imagine if instead of seeing an elderly person struggle up the hill, you saw an elderly person getting abused, intimidated or even attacked by Millwall fans. What is the worse?
Wait till your elderly addick then see how you go with that one. I lived on lansdowne lane for 8 years. I know that hill. Send the away fans our the back of the east stand up charlton lane and down.
I'm not saying it was an ideal scenario, but would an elderly person prefer to walk up a hill they normally wouldn't have to or risk being attacked and intimidated by Millwall fans? Imagine if instead of seeing an elderly person struggle up the hill, you saw an elderly person getting abused, intimidated or even attacked by Millwall fans. What is the worse?
The latter is worse. BUT, if the Millwall fans were kept in the ground, as they would all over the country and as we were previously, then these said elderly people could walk their chosen way home. They still had the risk of getting attacked this way, there were mini hordes of Millwall lot outside the car park, and walking around freely past the station. if they knew the area well enough they could of easily gone up the hill to the village to meet the Charlton fans.
Wait till your elderly addick then see how you go with that one. I lived on lansdowne lane for 8 years. I know that hill. Send the away fans our the back of the east stand up charlton lane and down.
I'm not saying it was an ideal scenario, but would an elderly person prefer to walk up a hill they normally wouldn't have to or risk being attacked and intimidated by Millwall fans? Imagine if instead of seeing an elderly person struggle up the hill, you saw an elderly person getting abused, intimidated or even attacked by Millwall fans. What is the worse?
The latter is worse. BUT, if the Millwall fans were kept in the ground, as they would all over the country and as we were previously, then these said elderly people could walk their chosen way home. They still had the risk of getting attacked this way, there were mini hordes of Millwall lot outside the car park, and walking around freely past the station. if they knew the area well enough they could of easily gone up the hill to the village to meet the Charlton fans.
I agree, and I to think the Millwall fans should have been kept in. However we have now learned from various emails people have had back from the club, that the police were not going to do this, so the the club decided that rather than let both fans out together they would hold us back.
So basically instead of taking it out on the club, it really is the police that need questions asked of, not the club. Hopefully the police will respond the Prague's request for the minutes and we can find out how they came to such a decision.
Which is what I said ages ago it was an OB decision
The timing of an announcement that was weeks in the making yet made weeks ago 24 hrs before the game was done so to not damage ticket sales That was wrong and the club to blame
I said pages ago the aggro should be aimed at the police if people are unhappy with the decision and maybe ask them why
And I wi bet my life say the club decided it but can you honestly see how the police could segregate to the station and on the platform
The club IMO acted in a way to keep Cafc fans away from what could've been a lot worse than an unconventional walk and time loss
I accept the elderly aspect of the question and maybe the club didn't do enough to try to get these fans to wait the 20 mins which would've been a darn sight quicker than them walking in a way that was difficult and longer
Which is what I said ages ago it was an OB decision
The timing of an announcement that was weeks in the making yet made weeks ago 24 hrs before the game was done so to not damage ticket sales That was wrong and the club to blame
I said pages ago the aggro should be aimed at the police if people are unhappy with the decision and maybe ask them why
And I wi bet my life say the club decided it but can you honestly see how the police could segregate to the station and on the platform
The club IMO acted in a way to keep Cafc fans away from what could've been a lot worse than an unconventional walk and time loss
I accept the elderly aspect of the question and maybe the club didn't do enough to try to get these fans to wait the 20 mins which would've been a darn sight quicker than them walking in a way that was difficult and longer
Exactly.
Can we all now move on from this and look forward to our next game rather than continuing to get all wound up because of those bermondsey pikeys. They must be loving this.
So, we have decided that all the different types of people that make up our supprt were to blame for the events after saturdays game,the young ,the old, the loud, the quiet, the any one but me, those at another game on another day, or some group far too dangerous to be even able to speak of.
Or it could just be, that having made a decision, it was the wrong one.
The plan was to wait untill the day before to let people know, and delegate a lone female with a loud hailer, to tell people exiting the west stand to turn right, as there was no exit via Floyd Road or Ransom Walk, and then to close Charlton Lane without telling anyone. We now have an explation, the club decided to keep both sets of supporters apart. Police intelligence confirmed an element of Millwall were intent on retribution, so let them out first. Police had lots of men and horses to keep fans apart, but club not sure, so decided to assist police with road closures, and only closed Ransom Walk for twelve minutes. Pity no one told the people penned in at the top of the road. The decision to close Charlton Park Lane was made by transport police, the club were unaware of this, even though we had police in full riot gear and mounted police in riot gear preventing anyone getting through, and two very eager mounted riot police blocking a garden gate.
The more I think about it, the more I think it was just an excuse for the ob to have weekend's overtime, what with the west ham, Chelsea game on the Sunday. If the intel was that good, why didn't the known spanners get letters in the post? If they were in Charlton on Saturday why didn't they have a section 27 issued to them?
I hope that the club have learnt something from this and that's to be the ob's mouthpiece.
Everyone keeps talking about those vulnerable people that were affected by having to walk a long way round, or having the police block them off from the way they wanted to go.
What if the club had gone with the police plan and allowed us to walk out side by side with Millwall fans. Do you really think these vulnerable people would have enjoyed potentially being threatened, having coins thrown, being started on etc.
I'm sorry but this is the most stupid over reaction ever. Yes the club was late telling us these plans, but if the police weren't going to hold the Millwall fans back then the club had no choice than to do what they did. People's safety is much more important than a slight inconvenience for 1 game only.
Can we please stop sounding so pathetic, find out from the police why they weren't going to keep the Millwall fans back and move on.
Everyone keeps talking about Millwall doing the threatening etc when it's Charlton's behaviour at the Palace game and away at Millwall that caused all this anyway.
You seem almost as good as us at pushing the blame elsewhere and shirking responsibility.
Enough of this nonsense the police would have doubled up the line on Floyd road it would be alright the people on our side who waited for palace wouldn't be there for Millwall at the top lets be real
So, we have decided that all the different types of people that make up our supprt were to blame for the events after saturdays game,the young ,the old, the loud, the quiet, the any one but me, those at another game on another day, or some group far too dangerous to be even able to speak of.
Or it could just be, that having made a decision, it was the wrong one.
The plan was to wait untill the day before to let people know, and delegate a lone female with a loud hailer, to tell people exiting the west stand to turn right, as there was no exit via Floyd Road or Ransom Walk, and then to close Charlton Lane without telling anyone. We now have an explation, the club decided to keep both sets of supporters apart. Police intelligence confirmed an element of Millwall were intent on retribution, so let them out first. Police had lots of men and horses to keep fans apart, but club not sure, so decided to assist police with road closures, and only closed Ransom Walk for twelve minutes. Pity no one told the people penned in at the top of the road. The decision to close Charlton Park Lane was made by transport police, the club were unaware of this, even though we had police in full riot gear and mounted police in riot gear preventing anyone getting through, and two very eager mounted riot police blocking a garden gate.
Good recap Rufus....... People want to move on, pity the Charlton fan's could not do so on Saturday when all they did was carry out the instructions by the police and therefore the club.? If you are bored with the thread, fine, you do not have to participate, move along? Some people think there is an important lesson to learn here, it is called communicating with fans. Your customers, as Henry has posted what besides moaning can be learnt from this, or are we all so clever that we know it all anyway?.
It would also be a good idea to know if this is going to be a template for the future, for some games, all games, or just the ones the police decide is a high risk based on speculative talk on websites.?
It might also be good not to leave it till 24 hours before hand and then announce it on a web site?
If the police, as stated refussed to allow the Millwall fans to stay inside,why is this arrangement not common at other clubs/grounds?
If this was the plan and managed route i.e. Charlton Park Lane, why did the police not know about this? according to Mick's email Charlton did not?.( and I was there and heard the police questioning what 'we ' should do?)
Why did the club not seek the help of other fan based sections, that could have helped spread the message?
Why was no announcement made at half time to inform fans about the closure of Charlton Lane?
I think there was a breakdown in communication beetween CAFC and the police in regard to informing the fans.
What steps are going to be taken to inform the fans in future?
Which is what I said ages ago it was an OB decision
The timing of an announcement that was weeks in the making yet made weeks ago 24 hrs before the game was done so to not damage ticket sales That was wrong and the club to blame
I said pages ago the aggro should be aimed at the police if people are unhappy with the decision and maybe ask them why
And I wi bet my life say the club decided it but can you honestly see how the police could segregate to the station and on the platform
The club IMO acted in a way to keep Cafc fans away from what could've been a lot worse than an unconventional walk and time loss
I accept the elderly aspect of the question and maybe the club didn't do enough to try to get these fans to wait the 20 mins which would've been a darn sight quicker than them walking in a way that was difficult and longer
Exactly.
Can we all now move on from this and look forward to our next game rather than continuing to get all wound up because of those bermondsey pikeys. They must be loving this.
It's not the 'bermondsey pikeys' winding us up, Afl, it's the impact of mis-information or incomplete information on home fans affected by ad-hoc arrangements, whether instructed by Scotland Yard or, as indications are now, by British Transport Police - or a catastrophic combination of both. SOMEBODY has to answer for the un-announced (to us) closure of the level-crossing area. Peoples' health and well-being were jeopardised. Judging by the Selhurst experience, the Met will abrogate any direct responsibility, and communication (lack of) remains an issue. The stewards and police by the West Stand exit were happy enough to send us 'right' along Harvey Gardens, but failed to advise of the cordon blocking the left turn. Armed with this information at that point, some may have then chosen to stay in the stadium until normal exit was possible. Curb-it does offer an alternative option for 'next time'- send away fans out via Lansdowne Mews and the 'back doubles' on the scenic route to the station!
Part of the problem as far as the police are concerned is that we are just football fans. We have fewer rights than the rest of society and on the whole are treated by the authorities with contempt. This however does not excuse the club over what can only be described as appalling communication with its fans. It would be nice to say that this was an uncharacteristic lapse by the club but we all know its not.
I can't remember anything like this happening at the Valley in the past. Even in the 70s we managed to survive without this attempt at protection - in those days we had the privilege of several hundred Millwall in the Covered End and routine fighting in the ground.
What intelligence was so scary that it made this essential in 2013? By 'eck i am glad that whatever it was that was going to happen, didn't!
Football needs to learn one fundamental lesson from this: pandering to a fear of aggression is not the future of crowd control. If people must be held back then it has to be the away contingent. And I say that as someone who goes to far more away games than home. I have seen no coherent argument for not holding back the Millwall fans including the many decent normal ones, until home fans had cleared the vicinity. That's how we got treated at the Den a few years back. Slippery slope this, if the violent minority are getting treated well while everyone else especially the elderly and infirm, is being inconvenienced.
I can't remember anything like this happening at the Valley in the past. Even in the 70s we managed to survive without this attempt at protection - in those days we had the privilege of several hundred Millwall in the Covered End and routine fighting in the ground.
What intelligence was so scary that it made this essential in 2013? By 'eck i am glad that whatever it was that was going to happen, didn't!
Football needs to learn one fundamental lesson from this: pandering to a fear of aggression is not the future of crowd control. If people must be held back then it has to be the away contingent. And I say that as someone who goes to far more away games than home. I have seen no coherent argument for not holding back the Millwall fans including the many decent normal ones, until home fans had cleared the vicinity. That's how we got treated at the Den a few years back. Slippery slope this, if the violent minority are getting treated well while everyone else especially the elderly and infirm, is being inconvenienced.
I can't remember anything like this happening at the Valley in the past. Even in the 70s we managed to survive without this attempt at protection - in those days we had the privilege of several hundred Millwall in the Covered End and routine fighting in the ground.
What intelligence was so scary that it made this essential in 2013? By 'eck i am glad that whatever it was that was going to happen, didn't!
Football needs to learn one fundamental lesson from this: pandering to a fear of aggression is not the future of crowd control. If people must be held back then it has to be the away contingent. And I say that as someone who goes to far more away games than home. I have seen no coherent argument for not holding back the Millwall fans including the many decent normal ones, until home fans had cleared the vicinity. That's how we got treated at the Den a few years back. Slippery slope this, if the violent minority are getting treated well while everyone else especially the elderly and infirm, is being inconvenienced.
Time to move on but a lesson has to be learned.
Again, read the reasons why this was done. The fear of aggression & violence was due to Charlton fans - firstly due to them waiting for Palace and secondly for throwing flares, ripping seats etc at The Den.
They wanted the target of Charton fans anger to be gone. Rather than holding us back and waiting for Charlton fans to gather & wait for us, they diverted you and got us out of there a quickly as possible.
If you hadn't have kicked off with police and played up inside the ground at The Den (& more recently Palace), then we'd all have been let out together like we were after the 4-4 game.
Comments
The atmosphere at this point was unbearable for some and it was heartbreaking to see a girl start fitting, with severe body seizures as she simply couldn't cope. Her (I presume) Mother was quick to help her daughter and I made the best effort I could by quickly informing an officer of occurrences, but I had a moment to reflect that the plan had surely failed in keeping people safe if this was one of the side-effects.
Nla no offence but you keep talking about "intel". Anyone would think you were the rozzer's best mate?? Who chats to the police that much?
What if the club had gone with the police plan and allowed us to walk out side by side with Millwall fans. Do you really think these vulnerable people would have enjoyed potentially being threatened, having coins thrown, being started on etc.
I'm sorry but this is the most stupid over reaction ever. Yes the club was late telling us these plans, but if the police weren't going to hold the Millwall fans back then the club had no choice than to do what they did. People's safety is much more important than a slight inconvenience for 1 game only.
Can we please stop sounding so pathetic, find out from the police why they weren't going to keep the Millwall fans back and move on.
Tbf
There's a lot of people who knew what was potentially in store Saturday and none of them to my knowledge are OB I didn't say where I heard what the OB had found out only that the OB told people weeks ago about not letting home fans out
There was a reason the OB made that stance which IMO backed up what I had been told by people who are def not OB
The latter is worse. BUT, if the Millwall fans were kept in the ground, as they would all over the country and as we were previously, then these said elderly people could walk their chosen way home. They still had the risk of getting attacked this way, there were mini hordes of Millwall lot outside the car park, and walking around freely past the station. if they knew the area well enough they could of easily gone up the hill to the village to meet the Charlton fans.
I agree, and I to think the Millwall fans should have been kept in. However we have now learned from various emails people have had back from the club, that the police were not going to do this, so the the club decided that rather than let both fans out together they would hold us back.
So basically instead of taking it out on the club, it really is the police that need questions asked of, not the club. Hopefully the police will respond the Prague's request for the minutes and we can find out how they came to such a decision.
The timing of an announcement that was weeks in the making yet made weeks ago 24 hrs before the game was done so to not damage ticket sales
That was wrong and the club to blame
I said pages ago the aggro should be aimed at the police if people are unhappy with the decision and maybe ask them why
And I wi bet my life say the club decided it but can you honestly see how the police could segregate to the station and on the platform
The club IMO acted in a way to keep Cafc fans away from what could've been a lot worse than an unconventional walk and time loss
I accept the elderly aspect of the question and maybe the club didn't do enough to try to get these fans to wait the 20 mins which would've been a darn sight quicker than them walking in a way that was difficult and longer
Can we all now move on from this and look forward to our next game rather than continuing to get all wound up because of those bermondsey pikeys. They must be loving this.
Or it could just be, that having made a decision, it was the wrong one.
The plan was to wait untill the day before to let people know, and delegate a lone female with a loud hailer, to tell people exiting the west stand to turn right, as there was no exit via Floyd Road or Ransom Walk, and then to close Charlton Lane without telling anyone.
We now have an explation, the club decided to keep both sets of supporters apart.
Police intelligence confirmed an element of Millwall were intent on retribution, so let them out first.
Police had lots of men and horses to keep fans apart, but club not sure, so decided to assist police with road closures, and only closed Ransom Walk for twelve minutes. Pity no one told the people penned in at the top of the road.
The decision to close Charlton Park Lane was made by transport police, the club were unaware of this, even though we had police in full riot gear and mounted police in riot gear preventing anyone getting through, and two very eager mounted riot police blocking a garden gate.
I hope that the club have learnt something from this and that's to be the ob's mouthpiece.
You seem almost as good as us at pushing the blame elsewhere and shirking responsibility.
People want to move on, pity the Charlton fan's could not do so on Saturday when all they did was carry out the instructions by the police and therefore the club.?
If you are bored with the thread, fine, you do not have to participate, move along?
Some people think there is an important lesson to learn here, it is called communicating with fans.
Your customers, as Henry has posted what besides moaning can be learnt from this, or are we all so clever that we know it all anyway?.
It would also be a good idea to know if this is going to be a template for the future, for some games, all games, or just the ones the police decide is a high risk based on speculative talk on websites.?
It might also be good not to leave it till 24 hours before hand and then announce it on a web site?
If the police, as stated refussed to allow the Millwall fans to stay inside,why is this arrangement not common at other clubs/grounds?
If this was the plan and managed route i.e. Charlton Park Lane, why did the police not know about this? according to Mick's email Charlton did not?.( and I was there and heard the police questioning what 'we ' should do?)
Why did the club not seek the help of other fan based sections, that could have helped spread the message?
Why was no announcement made at half time to inform fans about the closure of Charlton Lane?
I think there was a breakdown in communication beetween CAFC and the police in regard to informing the fans.
What steps are going to be taken to inform the fans in future?
Curb-it does offer an alternative option for 'next time'- send away fans out via Lansdowne Mews and the 'back doubles' on the scenic route to the station!
What intelligence was so scary that it made this essential in 2013? By 'eck i am glad that whatever it was that was going to happen, didn't!
Football needs to learn one fundamental lesson from this: pandering to a fear of aggression is not the future of crowd control. If people must be held back then it has to be the away contingent. And I say that as someone who goes to far more away games than home. I have seen no coherent argument for not holding back the Millwall fans including the many decent normal ones, until home fans had cleared the vicinity. That's how we got treated at the Den a few years back. Slippery slope this, if the violent minority are getting treated well while everyone else especially the elderly and infirm, is being inconvenienced.
Time to move on but a lesson has to be learned.
They wanted the target of Charton fans anger to be gone. Rather than holding us back and waiting for Charlton fans to gather & wait for us, they diverted you and got us out of there a quickly as possible.
If you hadn't have kicked off with police and played up inside the ground at The Den (& more recently Palace), then we'd all have been let out together like we were after the 4-4 game.
So tell me, on that basis, why were Charlton kept behind at the toolbox?