Thank you for mentioning your HR credentials. So I'll try to put my concerns to you on the basis that we talk the same language.
My stance on the departure of Messrs Varney, Kavanagh, Everitt, and Ms Perfect is that this is a shambolic and wanton destruction of human capital, which will do the club no good. If I may presume to summarise your position, it is that it is quite common for incoming new owners to want to install new people because they believe they can run the business better. Therefore while it is distressing in the short term the long term effects will be positive. The new people will bring new ideas and new energy. Now, in that scenario, you know what is best practice: In order to avoid employment law issues, those they want to get rid of are taken aside, and quietly made a generous offer (I'd expect 6 months salary), and an agreement that both parties will be magnanimous about each other so as not to disturb the customers. At the same time as this process has taken place, replacements will have been lined up. In such a situation it may be impossible to have a handover period, its better to let the outgoing people leave immediately, but you aim for their replacements to be in place ideally the week after. As HR professionals, do you have any issue with what I portray above?
Now, without wishing to go over old ground, this is manifestly not how the 4 people above have left, is it? Not is it how their replacements have been found. Indeed it seems the search for their replacements has only just started.
That, basically is my problem with what's gone on. I'm interested to hear why, from a HR professional point of view, my fears may be unfounded.
Prague you do me a disservice, I worked in Personnel not HR, and there is a big difference and if you don't understand that.............
With regard the dismissals my view is that we have only heard from one person one side of the situation. If Airman was dismissed as he said, then that is completely wrong and I see no reason why he would lie about it. As for K and PV I have no idea how they left as both have kept silent for what may be the best of reasons. It is also bad practice to get rid of staff before having their replacements in place but again we don't know the background to what happened, we only know what Airman says and others allude to.
It is a great pity that the club don't communicate but that is the way of the new owners and we, as fans, just have to put up with it, like it or not, and I don't.
Everyone keeps saying that some excellent people have left/resigned/been sacked/forced out. There seems to be agreement however that these people were excellent, so for me it only begs the question why didn't the mysterons keep them? Is TJ possibly the only person on the planet who has managed to fall out with CP? Why does TJ's path seem to be littered with people he has fallen out with? Why does he appear to be incapable of mending fences? TJ's personality attributes remind me so much of Simon Jordan that it's scary. The only difference seems to be that TJ doesn't care about the club.
I run a specialist recruitment consultancy. Here is one scenario in which we are hired.
An ad agency is bought by a new owner. The owner installs a new CEO, who embarks on changes to the senior team. This is controversial because the agency was actually competing pretty well on the market with the existing team. There is a sense that the CEO wants 'his own people'. Unfortunately he has difficulty getting them because the word gets around about what is happening. People whom he thought he could bring in, decide that they don't fancy it. People whom he thought he could promote internally turn out also not to want anything to do with the restructure. As a result he loses not just those he wanted to lose, but others whom he never counted on losing. At that point the task of finding several people simultaneously who actually want to work in the new structure, is given to the recruitment consultancy. It is a matter of urgency because the agency season (the run in to Christmas and the January tender season) is going to be upon them before anyone new could actually start.The recruitment consultancy will get on with it of course, but it would infinitely have preferred to have been discussing the assignment in the summer fallow period.
I would still like to know if there is a costed business plan somewhere in the Valley that sets out Airman's thinking as that could be used going forward with decisions on travel v tickets etc. No one on here thinks the owners want to make a loss do they?
The debate about how a restructure should take place has been eloquently put in posts above. I think I have taken it all in, so perhaps just a couple of things to think about.
AB's opening post seems to have been taken to mean that the Club have only just started the process of recruiting and that this is not the way to manage major change, certainly in a SME which often relies heavily on the dedication of its' staff, including middle management.
That's all very true, but I don't think it's true that the appointment of a recruitment agency means that the process of appointing replacements/new roles has only just started. Prothero was brought in for his undoubted experience in the sports industry and the contacts he has built. I think there's a bit of naivety around if you don't believe that he hasn't been speaking with other clubs about structure and people, as well as using his own contacts.
There are differing points of view about what this all means to our Club, but change in any organisation will always bring a period of uncertainty. Sadly, some excellent people have been forced out and/or lost their jobs. That's something that none of us would wish on others, but we aren't the ones whose money is on line and that also answers the question raised above about why RM & PV would hand the keys over to these guys...there were no other bidders and the alternative would have seen a lot more people out of their jobs, no Valley Express & we certainly wouldn't have been in the Championship or, probably, League 1.
Varney and Murray brought these owners in because the situation was desperate, as you say, and the takeover (not the individuals themselves) was a necessary evil. It was always a risk things wouldn't work out as well as they hoped. They bear responsibility for it, they know that, but probably they had no choice.
Crucially, we are now back in the Championship courtesy of these owners' (and Murray's) money and the work of Chris Powell, Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh, plus the players, etc. it would not be true to say that TJ and MS played any significant role beyond funding, but that was obviously key. The Jenkinson myth is just that. But PV and SK apart it was the most hands-off board I've seen at Charlton. The managers were left to manage and only outcomes would really have been available to the remaining board members as a measure of how well they did it. Note however that in this division again the club is much more saleable if TJ was ready to sell his stake.
Prothero told me that he had previously done work on the comparative structures of Prem and Champ clubs so was well placed to compare ours. In the three months he's been there he's had to spend a lot of his limited time dealing with player ins and outs and what I'll call for shorthand purposes disciplinary and personal issues, as well as acting as the ultimate available decision maker on matters that need to go to board level for decision.
Whether the owners intended SK to be part of the future is for another day, but MP has stayed relatively aloof, which he probably needed to do given his limited hours. He wouldn't know, for example, how we marketed the Barnsley game in detail. He wouldn't know that when he sacked me he left Wendy to organise 27 coaches on her own or that this triggered her resignation. He's never met her.
This isn't a criticism of him per se. It's not his job, as he would say. But I do think it's much easier for someone coming in to impose an off-the-shelf structure without getting into the personalities and history than it would be for someone with relationships and loyalties. You might give it three months to allow the appearance of making a proper assessment to the staff, the outside world or even the owners, but if you have a clear view at the outset based on previous experience you may feel that you don't really need to look too deeply. I don't think there's any evidence competence comes into it. It's hard to see that PP, TJ and MS would know anyway or that RM has exerted any influence. IMO it's primarily about the cheapest way of running the business, not improving the quality of decision-making.
My view is that they will get it wrong, not because Prothero is a fool, but because the board don't understand the club and they have already lost too much knowledge. The club is rapidly unlearning what it knew about the supporter base and its likely behaviour, as well as its own operating processes.
I don't believe that the existing management structure is or was ideal, but in League One the scope for increasing revenue was very limited in most areas. New ideas and approaches are valid and there are changes that I would have made myself, but the people in post have done a damn good job in very difficult circumstances. The very least they deserve is to be treated with respect.
The wider question for fans is what this says about the board's attitude to them.
Prague - you addressed your comment above to my post and outlined a situation in which your firm is hired. That seems to be what has happened here. No one has suggested this is ideal, but you recognise at least that it is a scenario that happens in business and is the one we find ourselves in now. It happens.
AB - I am sure there is nothing that Richard and Peter would love more than to be in a position that they could have continued to run the club, have comfortable funding and see us progress in a healthy, steady manner. I would certainly have been very happy if that had been the case.
You've detailed above that Prothero has been quite heavily involved, despite the "part-time" moniker that has been assigned to him, in a way which i have to say comes across quite disparagingly. We seem to have a few who have a dislike for the guy because of this, but those are the terms under which he has been employed surely.
I agree entirely with your last paragraph, especially about people doing a great job in very difficult circumstances, and hope that that has always been clear in my posts.
Varney and Murray brought these owners in because the situation was desperate, as you say, and the takeover (not the individuals themselves) was a necessary evil. It was always a risk things wouldn't work out as well as they hoped. They bear responsibility for it, they know that, but probably they had no choice.
The situation was not desperate but beyond repair. The thing is th
Airman, did they (Varney and Murray) know who the new owners would be before they sold or just that they were selling too two front men for a larger unknown group? If they didn't do they know, and in your opinion, would they have if they had known who they were selling too. Also, do they know who it is now??
Airman, did they know who the new owners would be, or just that they were selling too two front men for a larger unknown group? If they didn't do they know, and in your opinion, would they have if they had known who they were selling too. Also, do they know who it is now??
Prague - you addressed your comment above to my post and outlined a situation in which your firm is hired. That seems to be what has happened here. No one has suggested this is ideal, but you recognise at least that it is a scenario that happens in business and is the one we find ourselves in now. It happens.
Yes it happens. But my example was meant to show that it was not very clever management. And if I see parallels with CAFC, I feel confident to express a critical opinion based on my previous business experience.
Which brings me to a wider point about the commentary on here. There is a constant clash between those of us who see fit to comment on what goes on behind the scenes, and those who think we should not do so because we are somehow doing harm.
Yet, taking just this point about recruitment as an example, we discovered last night that not just I but at least two other Lifers - who to some extent disagreed with my viewpoint - have extensive HR/recruitment experience. Therefore we are all making our observations, which may be critical, from an informed angle. They are legitimate and relevant. Yet some people think we should shut up.
Contrast this with the dog's abuse that Chris Powell - and indeed any other manager we may have - gets on here. One poster -who may or may not be a kid - went so far as to describe it as "criminal" that CP didn't make subs when this poster thought fit. This apparently is OK, not just to comment critically, but hurl abuse at a football manager, when I can say with confidence that not a single person amongst CLs 1500 + (?) has played English League football, let alone managed a professional club. In other words, when it comes to the football side, none of us remotely know what we are talking about.
Airman, did they (Varney and Murray) know who the new owners would be before they sold or just that they were selling too two front men for a larger unknown group? If they didn't do they know, and in your opinion, would they have if they had known who they were selling too. Also, do they know who it is now??
Just after the takeover I had a brief conversation with an ex-director in a pub and he suggested that there was serious money men behind the people who were on the board. That does suggest that they knew.
Unfortunately this is a very sad and familiar situation. When new people join an organisation whether this be owner/director or manager they like/want/need or feel that they have to make changes. Quite often they don’t know what they want to do, where they want to go, they just want to make changes. They start to get rid of good people working for the organisation because they feel they can get better people out side. They have no vision and make a mess of things and move on to the next organisation to start the process off again. It’s likely to be further hard times for us before we start moving all together in the right direction
And that's before we get to Chris Powell's situation.
Airman, you've been very forthright about a number of issues, but the thing with Chris remains shrouded in innuendo. For most common or garden fans if a genuine club legend like Powell were adversely affected by changes in the club's administration, it would be massive concern. Can you say why he might be feeling uneasy or unhappy?
I don't think it will assist Chris for me to add anything to what's been said already. But he deserves our support.
Ok respect that, but I'm a bit confused about the purpose of bringing it up. Sorry if I'm missing something, but could you recap about what has already been said, thanks.
The one thing I don't quite understand is the role of Peter Varney in all this. It's important to remember that, for all his years of experience with Charlton, that he wasn't part of the 'old guard' here when the takeover took place, he came back as part of the TJ/MS consortium. Therefore he was a key player in bringing them in, and selling the club to them. I presume it was he who educated them about what the club was about, who were the key employees and the strengths and weaknesses of the organisation. He would also know where the money was actually coming from.
The thing is, most of the decisions taken under the new owners have been good ones, they appointed the right manager, spent enough cash to get us promoted easily, are investing in the Academy, didn't sell Solly, recruited Fuller, have allowed SCP to get loan players to full gaps etc. I find it hard to believe that TJ and MS didn't have some input in all that. Indeed the strangest thing about TJ, when compared with Simon Jordan say, is the complete lack of media presence. If my football team had won L1 with 101 points, I would have been everywhere, basking in the glory, instead he's like a monk who's taken a vow of silence...
Prague - you addressed your comment above to my post and outlined a situation in which your firm is hired. That seems to be what has happened here. No one has suggested this is ideal, but you recognise at least that it is a scenario that happens in business and is the one we find ourselves in now. It happens.
Yes it happens. But my example was meant to show that it was not very clever management. And if I see parallels with CAFC, I feel confident to express a critical opinion based on my previous business experience.
Which brings me to a wider point about the commentary on here. There is a constant clash between those of us who see fit to comment on what goes on behind the scenes, and those who think we should not do so because we are somehow doing harm.
Yet, taking just this point about recruitment as an example, we discovered last night that not just I but at least two other Lifers - who to some extent disagreed with my viewpoint - have extensive HR/recruitment experience. Therefore we are all making our observations, which may be critical, from an informed angle. They are legitimate and relevant. Yet some people think we should shut up.
Contrast this with the dog's abuse that Chris Powell - and indeed any other manager we may have - gets on here. One poster -who may or may not be a kid - went so far as to describe it as "criminal" that CP didn't make subs when this poster thought fit. This apparently is OK, not just to comment critically, but hurl abuse at a football manager, when I can say with confidence that not a single person amongst CLs 1500 + (?) has played English League football, let alone managed a professional club. In other words, when it comes to the football side, none of us remotely know what we are talking about.
Ironic, isn't it?
I agree with you about some of the clashes. This can be a great forum, full of some wonderful insights, but can also descend to the depths. There are some threads I don't bother to open, because I can just imagine the content. I seem to have avoided, for example, the "dog's abuse" you describe being levelled against Chris. After 7 years of ever-worsening fortunes, he has been the breath of fresh air that our club needed and I hope that he is our manager for years to come.
Off the field, it's obvious that things aren't right and certain situations should, and probably could, have been handled better. That's had severe implications for some very dedicated people, who we know have always had our club's interests at heart and is disconcerting for those of us who watch off the field movements as well as on.
I wish only the best for those who are no longer at the club. I also hope that, despite reaching this stage of the management changes in what are not ideal circumstances, we sort ourselves out internally as well. There's certainly no room for complacency on our part and I'm delighted we have the committed fans we do to ensure that won't be the case.
I have to say i have not see wholesale dogs abuse of Powell, there has been questioning of some tactics and actions during matches and the misusue of "criminal" by one, but unless I have missed the thread, there has been far more support of Powell on here throughout his tenure than any manager at Charlton during the internet era.
Prague, talk about an over-reaction to a comment from the kid calling CP's decision 'criminal'.
It was just a poor choice of phrase. There was certainly no abuse, just a bit of questioning of CP's decision making from him. He even followed up by saying he is 100% behind Powell, but thought a charlton football forum was a place to air HIS OWN views.
You never bothered with Choice's thread, then? Wise move, if so.
But I was making a general point and don't forget this is by no means the only Charlton forum.
I wasn't even criticising people who write as if they know CP's job better than he does. I was simply asking why it's ok to do that when for a lot of people it's not ok to raise questions of the club's commercial approach, when a lot of us would have relevant knowledge from our day jobs, on which to base their opinions.
I think 'football people' (basically ex pros) would like outsiders to think their jobs are much harder than they actually are. It helps maintain the status quo and ensures the hundreds of coaching/managerial roles are virtually a closed shop, despite considerable evidence that a lack of professional playing career need not be an obstacle to success (think Mourinho, Rodgers, Hodgson, Villas Boas, Sacchi, Houllier etc.).
This thread is becoming the new War and Peace. My summary would be ' we have new owners who have decided to do things the way they want to '. A lot of those things we will not like at all, basically they will not give a damn about what we like and will continue to do what they like. Sorry to interrupt, please continue you with your battle.
And that's before we get to Chris Powell's situation.
Airman, you've been very forthright about a number of issues, but the thing with Chris remains shrouded in innuendo. For most common or garden fans if a genuine club legend like Powell were adversely affected by changes in the club's administration, it would be massive concern. Can you say why he might be feeling uneasy or unhappy?
I don't think it will assist Chris for me to add anything to what's been said already. But he deserves our support.
Ok respect that, but I'm a bit confused about the purpose of bringing it up. Sorry if I'm missing something, but could you recap about what has already been said, thanks.
to Wendy Dear All, Now is a great time to join Valley Gold with the '12 Days of Christmas' draws starting on Monday December 10th, and 16k of prize money up for grabs.
If you're not already a member why not join today by pulling off an application form from the Valley Gold website at: www.valleygold.org.uk Remember to 'win it you have to be in it'. Up the Addicks! Wendy Perfect.
Comments
With regard the dismissals my view is that we have only heard from one person one side of the situation. If Airman was dismissed as he said, then that is completely wrong and I see no reason why he would lie about it. As for K and PV I have no idea how they left as both have kept silent for what may be the best of reasons. It is also bad practice to get rid of staff before having their replacements in place but again we don't know the background to what happened, we only know what Airman says and others allude to.
It is a great pity that the club don't communicate but that is the way of the new owners and we, as fans, just have to put up with it, like it or not, and I don't.
I run a specialist recruitment consultancy. Here is one scenario in which we are hired.
An ad agency is bought by a new owner. The owner installs a new CEO, who embarks on changes to the senior team. This is controversial because the agency was actually competing pretty well on the market with the existing team. There is a sense that the CEO wants 'his own people'. Unfortunately he has difficulty getting them because the word gets around about what is happening. People whom he thought he could bring in, decide that they don't fancy it. People whom he thought he could promote internally turn out also not to want anything to do with the restructure. As a result he loses not just those he wanted to lose, but others whom he never counted on losing. At that point the task of finding several people simultaneously who actually want to work in the new structure, is given to the recruitment consultancy. It is a matter of urgency because the agency season (the run in to Christmas and the January tender season) is going to be upon them before anyone new could actually start.The recruitment consultancy will get on with it of course, but it would infinitely have preferred to have been discussing the assignment in the summer fallow period.
Crucially, we are now back in the Championship courtesy of these owners' (and Murray's) money and the work of Chris Powell, Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh, plus the players, etc. it would not be true to say that TJ and MS played any significant role beyond funding, but that was obviously key. The Jenkinson myth is just that. But PV and SK apart it was the most hands-off board I've seen at Charlton. The managers were left to manage and only outcomes would really have been available to the remaining board members as a measure of how well they did it. Note however that in this division again the club is much more saleable if TJ was ready to sell his stake.
Prothero told me that he had previously done work on the comparative structures of Prem and Champ clubs so was well placed to compare ours. In the three months he's been there he's had to spend a lot of his limited time dealing with player ins and outs and what I'll call for shorthand purposes disciplinary and personal issues, as well as acting as the ultimate available decision maker on matters that need to go to board level for decision.
Whether the owners intended SK to be part of the future is for another day, but MP has stayed relatively aloof, which he probably needed to do given his limited hours. He wouldn't know, for example, how we marketed the Barnsley game in detail. He wouldn't know that when he sacked me he left Wendy to organise 27 coaches on her own or that this triggered her resignation. He's never met her.
This isn't a criticism of him per se. It's not his job, as he would say. But I do think it's much easier for someone coming in to impose an off-the-shelf structure without getting into the personalities and history than it would be for someone with relationships and loyalties. You might give it three months to allow the appearance of making a proper assessment to the staff, the outside world or even the owners, but if you have a clear view at the outset based on previous experience you may feel that you don't really need to look too deeply. I don't think there's any evidence competence comes into it. It's hard to see that PP, TJ and MS would know anyway or that RM has exerted any influence. IMO it's primarily about the cheapest way of running the business, not improving the quality of decision-making.
My view is that they will get it wrong, not because Prothero is a fool, but because the board don't understand the club and they have already lost too much knowledge. The club is rapidly unlearning what it knew about the supporter base and its likely behaviour, as well as its own operating processes.
I don't believe that the existing management structure is or was ideal, but in League One the scope for increasing revenue was very limited in most areas. New ideas and approaches are valid and there are changes that I would have made myself, but the people in post have done a damn good job in very difficult circumstances. The very least they deserve is to be treated with respect.
The wider question for fans is what this says about the board's attitude to them.
Never spoke to her even upon learning she'd resigned?
What's the non-football headcount at Charlton? 40 ish?
Jeez, even I never expected to hear that
AB - I am sure there is nothing that Richard and Peter would love more than to be in a position that they could have continued to run the club, have comfortable funding and see us progress in a healthy, steady manner. I would certainly have been very happy if that had been the case.
You've detailed above that Prothero has been quite heavily involved, despite the "part-time" moniker that has been assigned to him, in a way which i have to say comes across quite disparagingly. We seem to have a few who have a dislike for the guy because of this, but those are the terms under which he has been employed surely.
I agree entirely with your last paragraph, especially about people doing a great job in very difficult circumstances, and hope that that has always been clear in my posts.
The situation was not desperate but beyond repair. The thing is th
Which brings me to a wider point about the commentary on here. There is a constant clash between those of us who see fit to comment on what goes on behind the scenes, and those who think we should not do so because we are somehow doing harm.
Yet, taking just this point about recruitment as an example, we discovered last night that not just I but at least two other Lifers - who to some extent disagreed with my viewpoint - have extensive HR/recruitment experience. Therefore we are all making our observations, which may be critical, from an informed angle. They are legitimate and relevant. Yet some people think we should shut up.
Contrast this with the dog's abuse that Chris Powell - and indeed any other manager we may have - gets on here. One poster -who may or may not be a kid - went so far as to describe it as "criminal" that CP didn't make subs when this poster thought fit. This apparently is OK, not just to comment critically, but hurl abuse at a football manager, when I can say with confidence that not a single person amongst CLs 1500 + (?) has played English League football, let alone managed a professional club. In other words, when it comes to the football side, none of us remotely know what we are talking about.
Ironic, isn't it?
The thing is, most of the decisions taken under the new owners have been good ones, they appointed the right manager, spent enough cash to get us promoted easily, are investing in the Academy, didn't sell Solly, recruited Fuller, have allowed SCP to get loan players to full gaps etc. I find it hard to believe that TJ and MS didn't have some input in all that. Indeed the strangest thing about TJ, when compared with Simon Jordan say, is the complete lack of media presence. If my football team had won L1 with 101 points, I would have been everywhere, basking in the glory, instead he's like a monk who's taken a vow of silence...
Off the field, it's obvious that things aren't right and certain situations should, and probably could, have been handled better. That's had severe implications for some very dedicated people, who we know have always had our club's interests at heart and is disconcerting for those of us who watch off the field movements as well as on.
I wish only the best for those who are no longer at the club. I also hope that, despite reaching this stage of the management changes in what are not ideal circumstances, we sort ourselves out internally as well. There's certainly no room for complacency on our part and I'm delighted we have the committed fans we do to ensure that won't be the case.
COYR!
It was just a poor choice of phrase. There was certainly no abuse, just a bit of questioning of CP's decision making from him. He even followed up by saying he is 100% behind Powell, but thought a charlton football forum was a place to air HIS OWN views.
Hardly 'dogs abuse' was it.
Doesn't seem we are any closer to having the full picture but that's maybe because things aren't simple
blackred or white.Jimenez is not totally evil or a complete knight in shining armour.
Varney is not perfect not does he have 20/20 hindsight.
Powell is not a "clueless clown" to quote one fan but neither is he omniscient.
You never bothered with Choice's thread, then? Wise move, if so.
But I was making a general point and don't forget this is by no means the only Charlton forum.
I wasn't even criticising people who write as if they know CP's job better than he does. I was simply asking why it's ok to do that when for a lot of people it's not ok to raise questions of the club's commercial approach, when a lot of us would have relevant knowledge from our day jobs, on which to base their opinions.
Lisa Squires
3:01 PM (2 hours ago)
to Wendy
Dear All,
Now is a great time to join Valley Gold with the '12 Days of Christmas' draws starting on Monday December 10th, and 16k of prize money up for grabs.
If you're not already a member why not join today by pulling off an application form from the Valley Gold website at: www.valleygold.org.uk
Remember to 'win it you have to be in it'.
Up the Addicks!
Wendy Perfect.