I'm finding it hard to fathom why some people are still burying their heads in the sand.
They're not.
Everyone is acknowledging there are quite obviously problems behind the scenes - but we are not sure what they are and none of us have any credible alternatives that can resolve those issues overnight.
It's an excellent idea to form a trust and use it as not only a mouthpiece for fans but something that can provide support both financially and for the Club as a whole in some small way. We've had a massive input into the Club over the past 20 years and it is probably the best way to ensure that continues.
Conversely it also achieves absolutely nothing by continually slagging off the present incumbents. We're unhappy, they are well aware we are unhappy but to start shouting for their demise is not the intelligent way to go.
Outside of CAFC, I can hear the average football fan saying ''what the hell are they complaining about - the Chairman has saved them from administration, bought in a cult hero to manage the Club, invested in the team (and the youth set up) to ensure they got promotion at the first attempt with a record points score, yet they still want rid as the lines of communication have dried up and a couple of old boys have been sacked - don't they remember they got what they wished for with Curb's departure''.
A bit of balance is required.
Presently I see the best action we can take is to show our support wholeheatedly for the team and SCP on Saturday and whenever we can.
I think people will only start realising when things they 'see' on a regular basis (i.e. on the pitch) change. Whether that's players, coaching or the manager.
I'm finding it hard to fathom why some people are still burying their heads in the sand.
Being one of these ostriches myself I'll say it is personally based on lack of facts and evidence. I don't know presonally anyone ITK so don't take everything I read here and elsewhere as gospel.
This is of course my personal view and if I knew people in the know personally it may be different.
I just think we are in the process of transition and whilst there are obviously issues off the field I can't fault the board at this point on anything I've seen them to since taking over as an average not in the know Charlton supporter.
Of course if an when facts (or what I deem as facts) emerge then my view would change and I would react appropriately but for now until I see the board acting in a way that is truly detrimental to the club I cant justify sharing the outlook and criticism of them at them moment as naive as that may be.
I'm finding it hard to fathom why some people are still burying their heads in the sand.
They're not.
Everyone is acknowledging there are quite obviously problems behind the scenes - but we are not sure what they are and none of us have any credible alternatives that can resolve those issues overnight.
It's an excellent idea to form a trust and use it as not only a mouthpiece for fans but something that can provide support both financially and for the Club as a whole in some small way. We've had a massive input into the Club over the past 20 years and it is probably the best way to ensure that continues.
Conversely it also achieves absolutely nothing by continually slagging off the present incumbents. We're unhappy, they are well aware we are unhappy but to start shouting for their demise is not the intelligent way to go.
Outside of CAFC, I can hear the average football fan saying ''what the hell are they complaining about - the Chairman has saved them from administration, bought in a cult hero to manage the Club, invested in the team (and the youth set up) to ensure they got promotion at the first attempt with a record points score, yet they still want rid as the lines of communication have dried up and a couple of old boys have been sacked - don't they remember they got what they wished for with Curb's departure''.
A bit of balance is required.
Presently I see the best action we can take is to show our support wholeheatedly for the team and SCP on Saturday and whenever we can.
Where do you see the trust slagging off the present incumbents? The trust is in it's very early stages of development, and as far as I know does not yet formally exist, let alone become confrontational. The opportunity is there for a Supporters Trust and the club to work in harmony for the good of Charlton Athletic for this and future generations.
everyone has their own journey to make, I totally respect that.
The only thing I ask is that everyone who verbally supports the Trust idea, put pen to paper/fingers to keyboard and become a registered supporter of it
My worry is that TJ is not at the club for love, he is here for either his ego or to make money, both are dangerous. Those at the club that do love CAFC are systematically being removed from positions where they can question him, even if he is doing what he feels right it is still worrying. RM was not just on the look out for any buyer, he was looking for people he felt he could trust. Well it looks like he may have been wrong and if TJ looks to offload the club it will be to anybody that meets his price, we could be the next Portsmouth or our Tony may actually prove to be a great owner, just one that is highly autocratic and abrassive.
PV, SK, RE leaving/being sacked is nothing to do with lack of finances, as Rick's salary would be a fraction of what the likes of Fuller is on, the fee for Wilson or the costs of expanding the academy. Clearly, there are disagreements about how the club is run, and in the case of Rick he's probaby said or written something TJ/MS don't like and they've used it as an excuse to get rid of 'a troublemker'.
I genuinely have no reason to believe Powell's position is under threat, after all it was TJ/MS who appointed him. A lot of fans are probably not bothered about the departures of PV, SK and RE anyway. Sacking Powell would turn a lot more fans against the owners, and why would TJ/MS want such a situation?
Regardless of the reasons, I still can't get my head around the fact a high-profile, long-serving and proven employee was put through a disciplinary process that lasted over 3 months, and then sacked by a third-party signed email.
Class. Real Class.
This is exactly what I do not like about the whole of the modern business world inside and outside of football. CAFC is not alone in operating like this.In my career I have seen good servants to organisations treated equally as shabby as the current owners appear to have treated Rick.
In terms of the football industry we only need to see how Watford treated Sean Dyche to see that this behaviour is not unique to our owners but endemic within the game.
As fans our problem is that if TJ and Slater had not turned up when they did we might not have a Charlton at all or we could have copped a 10 point deduction under Parky and ended up as a fourth tier club for the first time in our history.Would we really have wanted this?
TJ and SCP have had heated discussions and don't particularly see eye to eye a couple of differing sources have mentioned this to me believe it or not i know it wouldn't have been made up so i can understand where these worries about SCP leaving may have come from
and yes of course many managers have heated discussions etc
This has been a great example of how a debate with differing views should be. Been some excellent views IMO on all sides, and find myself agreeing with virtually everything !
What we have to ask is what has changed in last 24 hours ?
Very little really. It was clear months ago that after PV and SK were effectively pushed out, it wouldn't be long before RE was too. You want to get rid of someone, you can always find a reason.
So the only real things we have learnt IMO are as follows:
1. That the clubs way of dealing / communicating with long-serving staff is extremely poor 2. That the clear decision to delete any form of messages from the club's official CAFC Facebook page thanking RE was ridiculously petty and shows another example of an increasingly insular organision seeking to distance themselves from supporters 3. That the club has probably added to the number of litigations it is currently involved in, which really aren't the type of things that look good if new investors / owners are being sought.
Other than that, there is nothing new other than speculation which you either feel carries weight, or doesn't. Your choice
I think people will only start realising when things they 'see' on a regular basis (i.e. on the pitch) change. Whether that's players, coaching or the manager.
Exactly that. A lot of fans do not read forums like this or listen to gossip.We can speculate about what's happening until the cows come home. But until the time events occur causing peoples enjoyment on a matchday to be seriously effected then I can see no huge swaithes of people standing at the gates with placards in their hands.Could well be to late by then but I think we need a few more facts before we can begin to expect large numbers to get involved.
I'm finding it hard to fathom why some people are still burying their heads in the sand.
They're not.
Everyone is acknowledging there are quite obviously problems behind the scenes - but we are not sure what they are and none of us have any credible alternatives that can resolve those issues overnight.
It's an excellent idea to form a trust and use it as not only a mouthpiece for fans but something that can provide support both financially and for the Club as a whole in some small way. We've had a massive input into the Club over the past 20 years and it is probably the best way to ensure that continues.
Conversely it also achieves absolutely nothing by continually slagging off the present incumbents. We're unhappy, they are well aware we are unhappy but to start shouting for their demise is not the intelligent way to go.
Outside of CAFC, I can hear the average football fan saying ''what the hell are they complaining about - the Chairman has saved them from administration, bought in a cult hero to manage the Club, invested in the team (and the youth set up) to ensure they got promotion at the first attempt with a record points score, yet they still want rid as the lines of communication have dried up and a couple of old boys have been sacked - don't they remember they got what they wished for with Curb's departure''.
A bit of balance is required.
Presently I see the best action we can take is to show our support wholeheatedly for the team and SCP on Saturday and whenever we can.
Where do you see the trust slagging off the present incumbents? The trust is in it's very early stages of development, and as far as I know does not yet formally exist, let alone become confrontational. The opportunity is there for a Supporters Trust and the club to work in harmony for the good of Charlton Athletic for this and future generations.
I didn't say the trust were - but a few people on this forum are.
The trust is there quite rightly to build bridges with the current board - and I hope that is one of its prime objectives.
This has been a great example of how a debate with differing views should be. Been some excellent views IMO on all sides, and find myself agreeing with virtually everything !
What we have to ask is what has changed in last 24 hours ?
Very little really. It was clear months ago that after PV and SK were effectively pushed out, it wouldn't be long before RE was too. You want to get rid of someone, you can always find a reason.
So the only real things we have learnt IMO are as follows:
1. That the clubs way of dealing / communicating with long-serving staff is extremely poor 2. That the clear decision to delete any form of messages from the club's official CAFC Facebook page thanking RE was ridiculously petty and shows another example of an increasingly insular organision seeking to distance themselves from supporters 3. That the club has probably added to the number of litigations it is currently involved in, which really aren't the type of things that look good if new investors / owners are being sought.
Other than that, there is nothing new other than speculation which you either feel carries weight, or doesn't. Your choice
agree, although without nitpicking, point two could have been a decision made by one man that simply run the official page rather than the board/club?
2. That the clear decision to delete any form of messages from the club's official CAFC Facebook page thanking RE was ridiculously petty and shows another example of an increasingly insular organision seeking to distance themselves from supporters
Luddite of me I know, but I don't have facebook, and don't really know anything about it beyond it being a way friends keep up with each other. But surely this can't be true, is it possible to delete stuff others have written on a public forum? If CAFC had the power to do this then the conversation would have gone:
Someone: 'I don't like praise for Rick being on the internet, get rid of it seeing as how you're my underling' Other Someone: 'May I ask why?' Someone: 'No, just do it'. Other someone spends some of their paid employment time getting rid of stuff on the internet.
The language I have used is less colourful than in 'The Thick Of It', but the scenario could have come from the programme.
It could also have been:
Emperor: 'Underling put the Genie back in the bottle'. Underling: 'But Emperor you have no clothes'. Emperor; 'You're sacked!'.
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
Whilst I have no reason to doubt any of the information that all is not well behind the scenes and am very sorry to see the personnel who have left or been dismissed, I only know any of this from Charlton Life. Had I not been a member of this forum I would be pretty happy with the way things have turned out since the new owners took over.
On the face of it things look pretty good - we had a wonderful year last year and still have a good manager and players. The vast majority of Charlton fans don't read this forum and don't have any reason to worry about the actions of the current board. I do think it would be silly at this stage to have demonstrations against the Board.
2. That the clear decision to delete any form of messages from the club's official CAFC Facebook page thanking RE was ridiculously petty and shows another example of an increasingly insular organision seeking to distance themselves from supporters
Luddite of me I know, but I don't have facebook, and don't really know anything about it beyond it being a way friends keep up with each other. But surely this can't be true, is it possible to delete stuff others have written on a public forum? If CAFC had the power to do this then the conversation would have gone:
Someone: 'I don't like praise for Rick being on the internet, get rid of it seeing as how you're my underling' Other Someone: 'May I ask why?' Someone: 'No, just do it'. Other someone spends some of their paid employment time getting rid of stuff on the internet.
The language I have used is less colourful than in 'The Thick Of It', but the scenario could have come from the programme.
It could also have been:
Emperor: 'Underling put the Genie back in the bottle'. Underling: 'But Emperor you have no clothes'. Emperor; 'You're sacked!'.
Yes you can do it. Essentially its a page for all to see and write on but CAFC have control on what stays on there. Just like i do on my facebook.
however the comments are still on there i believe. plus if they were removed then it could have been done by a single member of staff/moderator and not a decision taken by the club as a whole.
I can see TJ ringing up poor Matt Wright or someone
TJ: Get those things off of the Facebook page, I want no reference to it Matt: No problem 5 mins later Slater: Matt where have those tributes gone, put them back up Matt: But Mr Jimeniz said.... Slater: I don't care stick them back on Matt: No problem 10 mins later TJ: I thought I told you to take them down, get it done Matt: But Mr Slater said..... TJ: I'm in charge here, I don't want to see it 10 mins later
I agree with RCT. Whether or not TJ is throwing his weight about, my understanding is that, despite having the largest shareholding, control is effectively in the hands of the other shareholders whoever they might be. If there are tensions between them it is not surprising that we get little from them. As far as the Trust is concerned, I welcome the initiative and hope that in the coming weeks it establishes strong support accross the clubs fan base.
To be fair the trust isn't advocating confrontation with the current board - my worry is that might though. I have nothing against trusts - they are a brilliant idea if the board is receptive or the club needs to be saved. The latter may be a possibility sooner rather than later and I'll be joining up then.
I ask myselt though - what can a trust achieve now? Well it can bring together wealthy supporters to buy the club - subs of £5 - £1,000 aren't going to raise anything significant. If the purpose of the trust - indeed the priority of the trust was to find ways of finding the money that would be a different matter. It would probably need to be formed of people with the right connections rather than the rabble though (I include myself in that btw).
So what does it do if the financial side (apart from costs in setting iteslf up) is quite a few lines down on it's agenda ? - well losing Charlton people like Peter Varney and Rick is very upsetting. I am angry about it - it can't be good for the club in any way. If the members represent the views displayed on this site - well it might not be such a leap that the trust will decide to 'smell the coffee' and take action against the club. The sort of action that will only serve to be an annoyance - as that is all we can be. And that sort of action does have a nasty habit of spilling over onto the pitch - even with the best intentions. I am worried about that - sorry but I see it as a risk.
If Sir Chris can get us challenging in the right half of the table, positive developments behind the scenes could be more likely. We do have a fair bit going for us - Great manager - some great playing assets - excellent facilities and a modern stadium in the capital city. People have said that this division is a big step up and it is a step up i agree. But I think our biggest downfall has not been able to carry enough of an offensive threat. Palace set out to stop us - Derby and Forest set out to harry us, Watford set out to frustrate us. It wasn't through superior quality IMO - and we need time to adapt to the approach. I think we have a great asset - at this time and level- in Fuller who will have to stay fit because he is the type of player that unsettles defenders -if he does stay fit - I think the play offs are a possibility. A big if - maybe- but the team will need to be confident and will need our support more than ever to achieve that. I think that at this point in time, that is the most effective thing all of us can give.
When there are further developments, we need to appraise and react to them of course. But not jumping in isn't always a sign of burrying your head in the sand. Sometimes it is the wisest strategy.
Sacking Powell would turn a lot more fans against the owners, and why would TJ/MS want such a situation?
It's not sacking him I'd be worried about, it's him walking away.
I don't think even TJ (or his emailing third party friend) is stupid enough to sack him.
I'm very happy that SCP is our manager, and hope he's with us for a lot longer, but I disagree with some of the comments posted here that he's the only proper Charlton person left, and that without him the barbarians will have complete control. There are still plenty of 'Charlton' people left throughout the club, I believe Rick himself has stated this. Besides, his responsibility is what goes on, on the pitch; as a young manager he's got enough on his plate without worrying about community schemes, the Valley Express, football for a fiver, the club shop, the price of a pint of beer etc
can someone post a link to the sacking of PV, I didn't think he was sacked but I may be wrong ?
Think his position was made untenable due to being unhappy with events behind the scenes which he did not want to be party to.
This is part of what Rick wrote yesterday:
'I am not going to go into the details of the allegations at this time, but I am absolutely confident that when they emerge - together with the truth about the termination of Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh's positions at the club - it will be apparent to all of you that I have never compromised my loyalty and commitment to the club or its supporters. All these matters will shine a powerful light into what is going on behind the scenes and the people involved.'
My worry is that TJ is not at the club for love, he is here for either his ego or to make money, both are dangerous. Those at the club that do love CAFC are systematically being removed from positions where they can question him, even if he is doing what he feels right it is still worrying. RM was not just on the look out for any buyer, he was looking for people he felt he could trust. Well it looks like he may have been wrong and if TJ looks to offload the club it will be to anybody that meets his price, we could be the next Portsmouth or our Tony may actually prove to be a great owner, just one that is highly autocratic and abrassive.
Comments
Everyone is acknowledging there are quite obviously problems behind the scenes - but we are not sure what they are and none of us have any credible alternatives that can resolve those issues overnight.
It's an excellent idea to form a trust and use it as not only a mouthpiece for fans but something that can provide support both financially and for the Club as a whole in some small way. We've had a massive input into the Club over the past 20 years and it is probably the best way to ensure that continues.
Conversely it also achieves absolutely nothing by continually slagging off the present incumbents. We're unhappy, they are well aware we are unhappy but to start shouting for their demise is not the intelligent way to go.
Outside of CAFC, I can hear the average football fan saying ''what the hell are they complaining about - the Chairman has saved them from administration, bought in a cult hero to manage the Club, invested in the team (and the youth set up) to ensure they got promotion at the first attempt with a record points score, yet they still want rid as the lines of communication have dried up and a couple of old boys have been sacked - don't they remember they got what they wished for with Curb's departure''.
A bit of balance is required.
Presently I see the best action we can take is to show our support wholeheatedly for the team and SCP on Saturday and whenever we can.
The only thing I ask is that everyone who verbally supports the Trust idea, put pen to paper/fingers to keyboard and become a registered supporter of it
subscribe@castrust.org
I genuinely have no reason to believe Powell's position is under threat, after all it was TJ/MS who appointed him. A lot of fans are probably not bothered about the departures of PV, SK and RE anyway. Sacking Powell would turn a lot more fans against the owners, and why would TJ/MS want such a situation?
also, great post @Addickted
I don't think even TJ (or his emailing third party friend) is stupid enough to sack him.
This is exactly what I do not like about the whole of the modern business world inside and outside of football. CAFC is not alone in operating like this.In my career I have seen good servants to organisations treated equally as shabby as the current owners appear to have treated Rick.
In terms of the football industry we only need to see how Watford treated Sean Dyche to see that this behaviour is not unique to our owners but endemic within the game.
As fans our problem is that if TJ and Slater had not turned up when they did we might not have a Charlton at all or we could have copped a 10 point deduction under Parky and ended up as a fourth tier club for the first time in our history.Would we really have wanted this?
a couple of differing sources have mentioned this to me
believe it or not i know it wouldn't have been made up
so i can understand where these worries about SCP leaving may have come from
and yes of course many managers have heated discussions etc
What we have to ask is what has changed in last 24 hours ?
Very little really. It was clear months ago that after PV and SK were effectively pushed out, it wouldn't be long before RE was too. You want to get rid of someone, you can always find a reason.
So the only real things we have learnt IMO are as follows:
1. That the clubs way of dealing / communicating with long-serving staff is extremely poor
2. That the clear decision to delete any form of messages from the club's official CAFC Facebook page thanking RE was ridiculously petty and shows another example of an increasingly insular organision seeking to distance themselves from supporters
3. That the club has probably added to the number of litigations it is currently involved in, which really aren't the type of things that look good if new investors / owners are being sought.
Other than that, there is nothing new other than speculation which you either feel carries weight, or doesn't. Your choice
But until the time events occur causing peoples enjoyment on a matchday to be seriously effected then I can see no huge swaithes of people standing at the gates with placards in their hands.Could well be to late by then but I think we need a few more facts before we can begin to expect large numbers to get involved.
The trust is there quite rightly to build bridges with the current board - and I hope that is one of its prime objectives.
Indeed. It's like an episode of Chucklevision!
But surely this can't be true, is it possible to delete stuff others have written on a public forum? If CAFC had the power to do this then the conversation would have gone:
Someone: 'I don't like praise for Rick being on the internet, get rid of it seeing as how you're my underling'
Other Someone: 'May I ask why?'
Someone: 'No, just do it'.
Other someone spends some of their paid employment time getting rid of stuff on the internet.
The language I have used is less colourful than in 'The Thick Of It', but the scenario could have come from the programme.
It could also have been:
Emperor: 'Underling put the Genie back in the bottle'.
Underling: 'But Emperor you have no clothes'.
Emperor; 'You're sacked!'.
Yep, I think this about sums it all up for me.
On the face of it things look pretty good - we had a wonderful year last year and still have a good manager and players. The vast majority of Charlton fans don't read this forum and don't have any reason to worry about the actions of the current board. I do think it would be silly at this stage to have demonstrations against the Board.
however the comments are still on there i believe. plus if they were removed then it could have been done by a single member of staff/moderator and not a decision taken by the club as a whole.
TJ: Get those things off of the Facebook page, I want no reference to it
Matt: No problem
5 mins later
Slater: Matt where have those tributes gone, put them back up
Matt: But Mr Jimeniz said....
Slater: I don't care stick them back on
Matt: No problem
10 mins later
TJ: I thought I told you to take them down, get it done
Matt: But Mr Slater said.....
TJ: I'm in charge here, I don't want to see it
10 mins later
Repeat.........
I ask myselt though - what can a trust achieve now? Well it can bring together wealthy supporters to buy the club - subs of £5 - £1,000 aren't going to raise anything significant. If the purpose of the trust - indeed the priority of the trust was to find ways of finding the money that would be a different matter. It would probably need to be formed of people with the right connections rather than the rabble though (I include myself in that btw).
So what does it do if the financial side (apart from costs in setting iteslf up) is quite a few lines down on it's agenda ? - well losing Charlton people like Peter Varney and Rick is very upsetting. I am angry about it - it can't be good for the club in any way. If the members represent the views displayed on this site - well it might not be such a leap that the trust will decide to 'smell the coffee' and take action against the club. The sort of action that will only serve to be an annoyance - as that is all we can be. And that sort of action does have a nasty habit of spilling over onto the pitch - even with the best intentions. I am worried about that - sorry but I see it as a risk.
If Sir Chris can get us challenging in the right half of the table, positive developments behind the scenes could be more likely. We do have a fair bit going for us - Great manager - some great playing assets - excellent facilities and a modern stadium in the capital city. People have said that this division is a big step up and it is a step up i agree. But I think our biggest downfall has not been able to carry enough of an offensive threat. Palace set out to stop us - Derby and Forest set out to harry us, Watford set out to frustrate us. It wasn't through superior quality IMO - and we need time to adapt to the approach. I think we have a great asset - at this time and level- in Fuller who will have to stay fit because he is the type of player that unsettles defenders -if he does stay fit - I think the play offs are a possibility. A big if - maybe- but the team will need to be confident and will need our support more than ever to achieve that. I think that at this point in time, that is the most effective thing all of us can give.
When there are further developments, we need to appraise and react to them of course. But not jumping in isn't always a sign of burrying your head in the sand. Sometimes it is the wisest strategy.
'I am not going to go into the details of the allegations at this time, but I am absolutely confident that when they emerge - together with the truth about the termination of Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh's positions at the club - it will be apparent to all of you that I have never compromised my loyalty and commitment to the club or its supporters. All these matters will shine a powerful light into what is going on behind the scenes and the people involved.'