Dave, in my view the FF was nothing more than a replacement of the fans director, none of whom, I believe, ever demanded answers of the club. I don't believe it was ever intended to be used for the board to be accountable to fans. I think it was designed so that the FF could put out the clubs PR in a way that made the average fan believe that it was being consulted.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if the FF had stuck to passing on information from the club to the fans it would have been left alone.
What would I have done differently?
Well it's no coincidence that I didn't apply to be on the FF. I have made no secret that I always felt that that the FF was just a PR mouthpiece for the club. The fact that it took a different direction to the one that I believe was hoped for has probably resulted in the recent events.
Maybe I'm wrong, and I do hope that I am, but I think the club just have way to little money to satisfy the demands of the fans right now.
[quote][cite]Posted By: kings hill addick[/cite]Dave, in my view the FF was nothing more than a replacement of the fans director, none of whom, I believe, ever demanded answers of the club. I don't believe it was ever intended to be used for the board to be accountable to fans. I think it was designed so that the FF could put out the clubs PR in a way that made the average fan believe that it was being consulted.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if the FF had stuck to passing on information from the club to the fans it would have been left alone.
What would I have done differently?
Well it's no coincidence that I didn't apply to be on the FF. I have made no secret that I always felt that that the FF was just a PR mouthpiece for the club. The fact that it took a different direction to the one that I believe was hoped for has probably resulted in the recent events.
Maybe I'm wrong, and I do hope that I am, but I think the club just have way to little money to satisfy the demands of the fans right now.[/quote]
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]All I can say at this point is that the issue of the relationship with the fans is well understood and will be a priority next season. We can't give you answers about the medium term future of the club and I am not sure that directors can either. Staff would like to know too. But staff can and will engage better on operational issues. It's in everyone's interest that happens.
[cite]Posted By: No.1 in South London[/cite]Maybe invite some of the manager level people that Airman refers to, to become active and participating members of this forum ? might be a start.
Well i sincerely hope that is the case Airman, and i can give you an example of where things could be improved.
In the immediate aftermath of the Swindon away ticket fiasco (which coincidentally you will remember the weekend prior to the sale everyone on here advising that the structure was wrong and was going to be a fiasco), i found it hard reading on here tales from some of our posters who i genuinely knew were people who were consistent away travelers, some doing around 16 aways last season, who had failed to secure tickets.
I knew that there was a good chance that some would have been held back, some allocated to staff / players, excess supporters club supplies etc that may later filter into the system. Amongst other things, i emailed Dave Archer, the ticket office manager, sending an extremely polite email not criticising the situation, but offering to help supply a solution by compiling a list and contact details for what i would know personally through administering this site were some of the clubs most aggrieved customers / supporters.
I was going out of my way not to criticise the club and how it had planned things, but to try and help find a feasible workaround if it was possible, and i didn't even get the courtesy of a reply.
I appreciate it may have been fraught at the time, but even if it was a suggestion that was felt to have no value, a delayed 'thanks but no thanks' would have been appreciated.
In the event, and thanks to the goodwill and nature of other club associates, supporters club reps and general members on here, we managed to help out 25-30 away supporters with tickets they otherwise would have missed out on. I went out of my way, taking a day off work to make various trips to the Valley picking up tickets, dropping them round peoples houses, phoning people, co-ordinating with others off here to try and help provide a solution by doing something. And by doing so i know it worked, but it was a shame that the person whose job it is could have either helped the process a little easier, or if not, at least have had the decency to explain why not.
In whatever line of business or pastime, if you offer someone help, ideas etc and it just gets ignored, then you soon lose heart to go down a similar route again.
I appreciate this is an isolated incident, but i just want to highlight it as an example of a supporter not just 'moaning on the internet' but actively attempting to take it a step further, go out of their way, yet get ignored.
Just to give a little perspective, we issued 20,000 complimentary tickets to more than 250 primary schools across London boroughs and NW Kent last season. This may be less visible to fans than Kid for a Quid, but it reaches vastly bigger numbers.
There were getting on for 500 logged individual "player appearances" of one kind or another over the season, most of which will have been in Greenwich and Bexley.
Well i sincerely hope that is the case Airman, and i can give you an example of where things could be improved.
In the immediate aftermath of the Swindon away ticket fiasco (which coincidentally you will remember the weekend prior to the sale everyone on here advising that the structure was wrong and was going to be a fiasco), i found it hard reading on here tales from some of our posters who i genuinely knew were people who were consistent away travelers, some doing around 16 aways last season, who had failed to secure tickets.
I knew that there was a good chance that some would have been held back, some allocated to staff / players, excess supporters club supplies etc that may later filter into the system. Amongst other things, i emailed Dave Archer, the ticket office manager, sending an extremely polite email not criticising the situation, but offering to help supply a solution by compiling a list and contact details for what i would know personally through administering this site were some of the clubs most aggrieved customers / supporters.
I was going out of my way not to criticise the club and how it had planned things, but to try and help find a feasible workaround if it was possible, and i didn't even get the courtesy of a reply.
I appreciate it may have been fraught at the time, but even if it was a suggestion that was felt to have no value, a delayed 'thanks but no thanks' would have been appreciated.
In the event, and thanks to the goodwill and nature of other club associates, supporters club reps and general members on here, we managed to help out 25-30 away supporters with tickets they otherwise would have missed out on. I went out of my way, taking a day off work to make various trips to the Valley picking up tickets, dropping them round peoples houses, phoning people, co-ordinating with others off here to try and help provide a solution by doing something. And by doing so i know it worked, but it was a shame that the person whose job it is could have either helped the process a little easier, or if not, at least have had the decency to explain why not.
In whatever line of business or pastime, if you offer someone help, ideas etc and it just gets ignored, then you soon lose heart to go down a similar route again.
I appreciate this is an isolated incident, but i just want to highlight it as an example of a supporter not just 'moaning on the internet' but actively attempting to take it a step further, go out of their way, yet get ignored.
To be honest I think that has more to do with resourcing in the commercial centre that week than you being ignored. I am sure Dave would admit that they just could not cope. I agree you should have got a response even retrospectively, but it's not a question of someone deciding they won't bother, just them being swamped.
How about a hands up, I cocked up from the individual involved, rather than a stream of excuses. To be fair it's all begining to sound like a stuck record.
I have been a season ticket for over 20 years, buy the Programmes go to some (by no means all) away games and socialise with fellow Addicks and yet If I did not use this forum I am not sure I would have heard of the Fans Forum.
Am I forgetting the Programme Page dedicated to the FF or the not signed up to some sort of mailing list? If I am that show how prominent they are.
I am not knocking those who volunteer and put their money where their mouth is, I do wonder how affective they are in marketing and representing everyone who might have some very good ideas to add and do not know they have a route to do so.
Idea for those who want them - More publicity for FF in Programme/OS/Local press. Not sure it would cost anything and might really help generate interest. If all this has already been mentioned ignore me......
There were several program articles. But the club declined the FF a regular match day program slot due to space issues. There were also several articles done on the OS. The forum members attended a lot of local supporters club functions as well as a match day presence outside the main entrance on several occasions when it suited the club regarding h&s issues. There is a weekly slot in the newshopper to mention just a few. What the Fans Forum needed more than anything was a big win on a given situation, an ideal opportunity was last summers Q&A which was cancelled at the last minute which would have reaced a wider audience, I think we had up to 300 places available at the time. Personally I cannot fault their efforts, they put a lot of time in for no reward whatsoever and at times it must feel like they are banging their heads against brick Walls. Unfortunately the forum hasn't been as effective as it could have been. Circumstances and a certain lack of that magical "can do" attitude were missing.
[cite]Posted By: Telnotinoz[/cite]There were several program articles. But the club declined the FF a regular match day program slot due to space issues. There were also several articles done on the OS. The forum members attended a lot of local supporters club functions as well as a match day presence outside the main entrance on several occasions when it suited the club regarding h&s issues. There is a weekly slot in the newshopper to mention just a few. What the Fans Forum needed more than anything was a big win on a given situation, an ideal opportunity was last summers Q&A which was cancelled at the last minute which would have reaced a wider audience, I think we had up to 300 places available at the time. Personally I cannot fault their efforts, they put a lot of time in for no reward whatsoever and at times it must feel like they are banging their heads against brick Walls. Unfortunately the forum hasn't been as effective as it could have been. Circumstances and a certain lack of that magical "can do" attitude were missing.
As I said I might have missed a lot and I might not have been the only one.
Once again I am not knocking anyone who gives up any time to try to help.
i was just about to ask about the possibility of an open day when i saw fanny fanackapan's post - a couple of seasons ago we had the open day at the ground and i thought it was fantastic (despite it mostly being laid on for kids). i had the excuse of taking my nephew's along, both season ticket holders for years but i was beating them out of the way for autographs. it was a great day - whats the chance of that happening again?
A great debate happening here everyone, I think maybe someone should summarise and bullet point all the main issues we as fans have and take it back to the club maybe something for Airman to do???, I think Airman’s point on meeting managers rather than board would be a lot more constructive.
Tel, if you want a personal apology it's best to direct your complaint at the person concerned or at least his/her manager, not post on here. I can't apologise on his behalf, neither would it be appropriate for me to do so. Dave isn't in work at present (and as it happens neither am I).
In fairness AFKA wasn't posting here with that purpose, I think.
"Posted By: kings hill addick
In all honesty if I was a director in to the club for millions of pounds of my own money and all I ever seemed to hear was demands for more and more then I'd probably send the FF away and ask them to have a good look at themselves and come back when they have something more to offer that questions.
This is, in no way, a criticism of the members of the FF, but I think the truth is that we all need to take a good look at ourselves and decide if what we are asking for is reasonable, or not.
I think you miss the very same point that the Club seems to miss.
When the Fans' Forum posed questions on behalf of the fans, it's important to look beyond the specifics. It's about identifying the areas for improvement, the aspects which are not operating as well as they might.
When we spoke about value for money of the non-football management staff, the issue wasn't about Steve Waggott or Steve Kavanagh or what their salaries might have been. It was about highlighting areas which fans had identified as 'not being right' in their humble opinions. And, when fans want to find ways of giving money to the Club that they love, it's about being re-assured that their contributions would not simply go down the drain.
When we spoke about catering, it wasn't about pink sausages or about long queues for beer at half-time. It was about the fact that the Club is missing out on revenue - and losing customer goodwill. The same goes for smoking.
Our questions were generally the way of highlighting the issues as fans see them. When you try to solve a problem, it's always a good idea to be clear what problem you are trying to solve. To expect fans, or the Fans' Forum itself, to provide suggested solutions is asking for a great deal more than most of us can commit to.
Sadly, people seem to get stuck on the specifics rather than take in the big picture. If I've learned one thing about this Club in my time with the Fans' Forum it's that the word 'strategy' seems to apply to a period of no greater than one year, but I may be being unkind. "
I am in complete agreement here Dave, the attitude is all wrong, I think the club regret setting up the FF and see it as a PR exercise gone wrong. Reducing queues could mean more revenue being a great example, instead all there is cynical attempts to increase revenue - like selling over priced crap, it just makes fans think the club thinks they are mugs.
I get the impression that the board are not interested that much in the future but are just trying to recoup as much of their money as possible/ halt the losses until a suitable takover occurs.
Cant say i blame them but it dont feel inspired by them as I did in days gone by. Its a bit of a rut as we seem to have a board that are only half- hearted and not interested in fans like they once were. Like a marriage gone stale.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]I get the impression that the board are not interested that much in the future but are just trying to recoup as much of their money as possible/ halt the losses until a suitable takover occurs.
Cant say i blame them but it dont feel inspired by them as I did in days gone by. Its a bit of a rut as we seem to have a board that are only half- hearted and not interested in fans like they once were. Like a marriage gone stale.
I think you are right.
The atmosphere around the Club at present puts me in mind of the Gliksten era and we all know how that almost ended and the resulting consequences.
As regards the issue with smoking at the Valley, i have emailed the safety and operations manager at Derby County and will attempt to establish a conversation between them and Mick Everett/John Little to see if any progress can be made.
[quote][cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]Thank you Dave for the hard work you put in with the FF.[/quote]
Yes seconded.[/quote]
Kind words, guys. And very much appreciated - thank you.
But don't get me emotional. And don't forget the efforts of others. Sacha, Tel, Suze and Gary all played their parts before, while Tony, Gavin, Geoff and Matt will continue to fly the slightly tattered flag.
[quote][cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]Ditto - what happened to suze she wasnt on there long[/quote]
Suze was a great asset to the group, even before she formally joined, but she has other priorities at the moment. The small matter of getting married for a start, and work and travel commitments which take up a great deal of her time. She was right to back off from the Fans' Forum when she wasn't able to commit fully.
I have just heard a particularly cringeful story from a work colleague today, who having phoned up to purchase 2 season tickets was shocked at the level of rudeness from the person that took the call at the club (wont mention names) to the extent that he has backed out of the deal.
Im pretty certain when he calms down he will still get them as its in the blood but its not the point.
I hope the apathy being showed at management level isnt filtering down to the staff at bottom level. I have always found the ticket office staff polite and helpful.
Is it worth trying to get a Emergency meeting with the club ?
with teh FF and a select few from here.
1 to express our concerns 2 to get a clear direction of what the FF means going forward 3 get some commitment from the club regarding the relationship of club & Fans
Seems to be quite a bit of digging out of the club on here which I am not a fan of.
However, I am personally of the opinion that the Club for any protestation that they may make about it, have no love for either the Supporters Director Role or the newer Fans Forum Role & would remove them completely tomorrow if they could. Just my view mind.
make the FF a single person and much the same as the SD but without the director title, why they didn't do this in the first place not sure, probably thought it would weaken it a bit and make it like a focus group. I think this would be a far better and less abrasive structure - no criticism of the current FF members intended here.
second and most important, set out the criteria that officially recognised supporters clubs must meet (such as elections, website, communication channels, transparency) to ensure that the current situation is resolved and proper fan representation occurs, the current situation whith the branch that shall remain nameless completely undermines the power that such groups should have mobilising fans. Yes it is up to the club to do this, no one else can.
Airman, not me who was looking for an apology, but I think Mr Archer should give Danny the courtesy of a call or email...now you are aware of it you could indeed pass it on...couldnt you? or is that too much to ask?
certainly not after any form of contact / apology etc and no big deal. Just mentioned it as an example to Airman's response on how staff / managers could engage better with supporters on operational issues.
[cite]Posted By: WSS[/cite]So what do the people who get paid at the club do then?
Its like me saying to all my clients: "I'm not going to do anything actually guys, can you just do all the legwork, sort out all of the problems and come up with contingency plans and then give me a big wad of cash for the privilege"
Excuse my language but that is f*cking pathetic.
That being said, I do find it staggering that the club has that attitude (if they indeed do) as I thought they were all fans like us?
Agree entirely with what WSS has said above. If true, how the club can turn around and ask for solutions rather than questions is a f*cking disgrace.
As a supporter first and a paying customer second, i cringe at the decline of this club. Its on a slippery slope at the moment and if the people at the top dont get their head out of their arse and wise up then it will continue to do so.......and it will be us and the hard working staff that suffer.
The more I think about the woeful financial state we appear to be in as a club the more I realise (not that I didn't before at the time) the truly MAGNIFICENT job Alan Curbishley did as manager to not only get us into the Premiership (twice) but keep us there.
I cannot help but think that much of our long-gone (sadly) reputation for being a "model" and "well-run" club was in fact down to a combination of Alan Curbishley's exceptional managerial ability and prudence. In my opinion Peter Varney saw that early and realised, probably after continually banging his head against a brick wall, that things were only going one way so got out.
The old saying "you don't know what you've got until its gone" is very true.
Comments
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if the FF had stuck to passing on information from the club to the fans it would have been left alone.
What would I have done differently?
Well it's no coincidence that I didn't apply to be on the FF. I have made no secret that I always felt that that the FF was just a PR mouthpiece for the club. The fact that it took a different direction to the one that I believe was hoped for has probably resulted in the recent events.
Maybe I'm wrong, and I do hope that I am, but I think the club just have way to little money to satisfy the demands of the fans right now.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if the FF had stuck to passing on information from the club to the fans it would have been left alone.
What would I have done differently?
Well it's no coincidence that I didn't apply to be on the FF. I have made no secret that I always felt that that the FF was just a PR mouthpiece for the club. The fact that it took a different direction to the one that I believe was hoped for has probably resulted in the recent events.
Maybe I'm wrong, and I do hope that I am, but I think the club just have way to little money to satisfy the demands of the fans right now.[/quote]
OK.
I respect your view.
Well i sincerely hope that is the case Airman, and i can give you an example of where things could be improved.
In the immediate aftermath of the Swindon away ticket fiasco (which coincidentally you will remember the weekend prior to the sale everyone on here advising that the structure was wrong and was going to be a fiasco), i found it hard reading on here tales from some of our posters who i genuinely knew were people who were consistent away travelers, some doing around 16 aways last season, who had failed to secure tickets.
I knew that there was a good chance that some would have been held back, some allocated to staff / players, excess supporters club supplies etc that may later filter into the system. Amongst other things, i emailed Dave Archer, the ticket office manager, sending an extremely polite email not criticising the situation, but offering to help supply a solution by compiling a list and contact details for what i would know personally through administering this site were some of the clubs most aggrieved customers / supporters.
I was going out of my way not to criticise the club and how it had planned things, but to try and help find a feasible workaround if it was possible, and i didn't even get the courtesy of a reply.
I appreciate it may have been fraught at the time, but even if it was a suggestion that was felt to have no value, a delayed 'thanks but no thanks' would have been appreciated.
In the event, and thanks to the goodwill and nature of other club associates, supporters club reps and general members on here, we managed to help out 25-30 away supporters with tickets they otherwise would have missed out on. I went out of my way, taking a day off work to make various trips to the Valley picking up tickets, dropping them round peoples houses, phoning people, co-ordinating with others off here to try and help provide a solution by doing something. And by doing so i know it worked, but it was a shame that the person whose job it is could have either helped the process a little easier, or if not, at least have had the decency to explain why not.
In whatever line of business or pastime, if you offer someone help, ideas etc and it just gets ignored, then you soon lose heart to go down a similar route again.
I appreciate this is an isolated incident, but i just want to highlight it as an example of a supporter not just 'moaning on the internet' but actively attempting to take it a step further, go out of their way, yet get ignored.
There were getting on for 500 logged individual "player appearances" of one kind or another over the season, most of which will have been in Greenwich and Bexley.
To be honest I think that has more to do with resourcing in the commercial centre that week than you being ignored. I am sure Dave would admit that they just could not cope. I agree you should have got a response even retrospectively, but it's not a question of someone deciding they won't bother, just them being swamped.
Am I forgetting the Programme Page dedicated to the FF or the not signed up to some sort of mailing list? If I am that show how prominent they are.
I am not knocking those who volunteer and put their money where their mouth is, I do wonder how affective they are in marketing and representing everyone who might have some very good ideas to add and do not know they have a route to do so.
Idea for those who want them - More publicity for FF in Programme/OS/Local press. Not sure it would cost anything and might really help generate interest. If all this has already been mentioned ignore me......
As I said I might have missed a lot and I might not have been the only one.
Once again I am not knocking anyone who gives up any time to try to help.
Just a thought.
In fairness AFKA wasn't posting here with that purpose, I think.
In all honesty if I was a director in to the club for millions of pounds of my own money and all I ever seemed to hear was demands for more and more then I'd probably send the FF away and ask them to have a good look at themselves and come back when they have something more to offer that questions.
This is, in no way, a criticism of the members of the FF, but I think the truth is that we all need to take a good look at ourselves and decide if what we are asking for is reasonable, or not.
I think you miss the very same point that the Club seems to miss.
When the Fans' Forum posed questions on behalf of the fans, it's important to look beyond the specifics. It's about identifying the areas for improvement, the aspects which are not operating as well as they might.
When we spoke about value for money of the non-football management staff, the issue wasn't about Steve Waggott or Steve Kavanagh or what their salaries might have been. It was about highlighting areas which fans had identified as 'not being right' in their humble opinions. And, when fans want to find ways of giving money to the Club that they love, it's about being re-assured that their contributions would not simply go down the drain.
When we spoke about catering, it wasn't about pink sausages or about long queues for beer at half-time. It was about the fact that the Club is missing out on revenue - and losing customer goodwill. The same goes for smoking.
Our questions were generally the way of highlighting the issues as fans see them. When you try to solve a problem, it's always a good idea to be clear what problem you are trying to solve. To expect fans, or the Fans' Forum itself, to provide suggested solutions is asking for a great deal more than most of us can commit to.
Sadly, people seem to get stuck on the specifics rather than take in the big picture. If I've learned one thing about this Club in my time with the Fans' Forum it's that the word 'strategy' seems to apply to a period of no greater than one year, but I may be being unkind. "
I am in complete agreement here Dave, the attitude is all wrong, I think the club regret setting up the FF and see it as a PR exercise gone wrong. Reducing queues could mean more revenue being a great example, instead all there is cynical attempts to increase revenue - like selling over priced crap, it just makes fans think the club thinks they are mugs.
Cant say i blame them but it dont feel inspired by them as I did in days gone by. Its a bit of a rut as we seem to have a board that are only half- hearted and not interested in fans like they once were. Like a marriage gone stale.
I think you are right.
The atmosphere around the Club at present puts me in mind of the Gliksten era and we all know how that almost ended and the resulting consequences.
We live in a harsher world financially now.
Yes seconded.
Yes seconded.[/quote]
Kind words, guys. And very much appreciated - thank you.
But don't get me emotional. And don't forget the efforts of others. Sacha, Tel, Suze and Gary all played their parts before, while Tony, Gavin, Geoff and Matt will continue to fly the slightly tattered flag.
Suze was a great asset to the group, even before she formally joined, but she has other priorities at the moment. The small matter of getting married for a start, and work and travel commitments which take up a great deal of her time. She was right to back off from the Fans' Forum when she wasn't able to commit fully.
Im pretty certain when he calms down he will still get them as its in the blood but its not the point.
I hope the apathy being showed at management level isnt filtering down to the staff at bottom level. I have always found the ticket office staff polite and helpful.
with teh FF and a select few from here.
1 to express our concerns
2 to get a clear direction of what the FF means going forward
3 get some commitment from the club regarding the relationship of club & Fans
However, I am personally of the opinion that the Club for any protestation that they may make about it, have no love for either the Supporters Director Role or the newer Fans Forum Role & would remove them completely tomorrow if they could. Just my view mind.
make the FF a single person and much the same as the SD but without the director title, why they didn't do this in the first place not sure, probably thought it would weaken it a bit and make it like a focus group. I think this would be a far better and less abrasive structure - no criticism of the current FF members intended here.
second and most important, set out the criteria that officially recognised supporters clubs must meet (such as elections, website, communication channels, transparency) to ensure that the current situation is resolved and proper fan representation occurs, the current situation whith the branch that shall remain nameless completely undermines the power that such groups should have mobilising fans. Yes it is up to the club to do this, no one else can.
Agree entirely with what WSS has said above. If true, how the club can turn around and ask for solutions rather than questions is a f*cking disgrace.
As a supporter first and a paying customer second, i cringe at the decline of this club. Its on a slippery slope at the moment and if the people at the top dont get their head out of their arse and wise up then it will continue to do so.......and it will be us and the hard working staff that suffer.
The more I think about the woeful financial state we appear to be in as a club the more I realise (not that I didn't before at the time) the truly MAGNIFICENT job Alan Curbishley did as manager to not only get us into the Premiership (twice) but keep us there.
I cannot help but think that much of our long-gone (sadly) reputation for being a "model" and "well-run" club was in fact down to a combination of Alan Curbishley's exceptional managerial ability and prudence. In my opinion Peter Varney saw that early and realised, probably after continually banging his head against a brick wall, that things were only going one way so got out.
The old saying "you don't know what you've got until its gone" is very true.