[quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Imagine that with such a big agenda it might take a while to type up any notes plus the guys have proper jobs/family/England games to work around.[/quote]
In other words they been on the lash watching football and drinking beer all weekend. ;-)
OK, here's a summary of the meeting. Apologies for the delay.
As mentioned prior to the meeting, the main topic of the agenda was a review of the remit and effectiveness to date of the Fans' Forum.
It was agreed that there was general disappointment with the achievements of the Fans' Forum since its inception in October 2008. Meetings with the Club have tended to consist of a series of questions or complaints from fans, but without proposed suggestions or ideas for improvement. As a result, the Club is generally expected to deal with recurring topics (catering, smoking etc) and little or no progress seems to be made. Recent questions around the value for money of the non-football management structure were not received kindly and there was a clear sense of indignation from the Club at such topics being raised by the Fans' Forum. We were asked to trust the Club more and to respect the fact that such matters were being addressed.
During discussion, the original remit of the Fans' Forum was reviewed. This was originally stated as follows:
1) To maintain and build on the open, honest and constructive relationship between fans, staff and directors of Charlton Athletic 2) To facilitate two way communication betwen Fans and the Club and ensure that the interests and views of Charlton fans are actively considered at the highest level when decisions are made 3) To provide a point of contact for fans to refer questions, queries and suggestions 4) To communicate to fans on the reasons for, and thinking behind, Football Club and PLC decisions 5) To enable Charlton Athletic FC to maintain its high standards of supporter health, safety, enjoyment and well being
It became clear that the Club expects the Fans' Forum to act more as a reviewing body for ideas and suggestions such that it could come to the Club with proposals for the way forward rather than simply communicating the areas for improvement which fans have identified.
To that end, the members of the Fans' Forum were asked to review the remit of the group and to come back to the Club within a two-week period with proposals for the revised scope and for the re-constitution of membership (including election process etc).
In keeping with the theme of improving the activities of the Fans' Forum, I took the personal view that this probable increase in remit and workload signalled the end of my own involvement with the group, and that it would provide the opportunity for a fresh approach and fresh ideas. Accordingly, I expect the remaining members of the Fans' Forum (Tony Garrett, Matt Dainty, Geoff Billingsley and Gavin Barrett) to meet shortly to develop the revised remit of the new group. I wish them, and any new members who are subsequently recruited, the very best of luck in their endeavours, and express my thanks to all concerned for a hugely enjoyable, if less than productive, time with the Fans' Forum.
The remainder of the meeting consisted of a fairly rapid run through the long list of agenda items which had previously been prepared. You can imagine though that, in view of the preceeding discussion, enthusiasm for dealing with a large number of questions from fans (without ideas or suggestions for improvement) was not high. Nevertheless, a professional job was done and we do have some snippets of information which we plan to make public, but which will need to be vetted by the Club first.
One point which I will venture is that the Club is very open to the idea of fans funding an electronic scoreboard. The current 'big screen' has outlived its usefulness, but proposals for the financing and introduction of a replacement (although maybe less sophisticated) would be welcomed. Steve Kavanagh agreed to get some idea of potential costs, so this could be a real opportunity for fans, via the Fan's Forum in its new colours, to make a real difference. I hope so.
I'm sorry that there is less here than you might have wished, but it was a strange, yet interesting meeting. I'll summarise the remaining points and get those to the Club for approval and then make those available when I can.
don't really want to get drawn in, but I thought we had mentioned improvements to the bar etc, most of whcih are dismissed, so I don't really regard that as a fair view from the club.
Its sounds like there is a change in style here and what the more reflects the real view of the club towards the forum and indeed the fans
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]OK, here's a summary of the meeting. Apologies for the delay.
As mentioned prior to the meeting, the main topic of the agenda was a review of the remit and effectiveness to date of the Fans' Forum.
It was agreed that there was general disappointment with the achievements of the Fans' Forum since its inception in October 2008. Meetings with the Club have tended to consist of a series of questions or complaints from fans, but without proposed suggestions or ideas for improvement. As a result, the Club is generally expected to deal with recurring topics (catering, smoking etc) and little or no progress seems to be made. Recent questions around the value for money of the non-football management structure were not received kindly and there was a clear sense of indignation from the Club at such topics being raised by the Fans' Forum. We were asked to trust the Club more and to respect the fact that such matters were being addressed.
During discussion, the original remit of the Fans' Forum was reviewed. This was originally stated as follows:
1) To maintain and build on the open, honest and constructive relationship between fans, staff and directots of CHarlton Athletic
2) To facilitate two way communication betwen Fans and the Club and ensure that the interests and views of Charlton fans are actively considered at the highest level when decisions are made
3) To provide a point of contact for fans to refer questions, queries and suggestions
4) To communicate to fans on the reasons for, and thinking behind, Football Club and PLC decisions
5) To enable Charlton Athletic FC to maintain its high standards of supporter health, safety, enjoyment and well being
It became clear that the Club expects the Fans' Forum to act more as a reviewing body for ideas and suggestions such that it could come to the Club with proposals for the way forward rather than simply communicating the areas for improvement which fans have identified.
To that end, the members of the Fans' Forum were asked to review the remit of the group and to come back to the Club within a two-week period with proposals for the revised scope and for the re-constitution of membership (including election process etc).
Well done for sticking in their for so long Dave. Sadly the FF isn't going to work under the current remit, it was another golden opportunity for the club which like so many other things in our recent past have gone distinctly pear shaped. None so blind as those that cannot see.
I can't see how suggestions like putting more staff on the bars at half-time to generate more income for the club could not be considered as full solutions and sounds a bit like the club wanting to {further} distance the fans from any decision making...
One question which you may wish to decline answering Dave, was your decision to resign intended as a protest at the planned changes in the role of the forum?
Well done for volunteering at the start, shame it didn't work...the Board seem to be saying:-
"not too interested in your views unless you come up with ideas where the fans spend more money like buying the score board"
At least we know where we stand!
I am probably being unfair but it tends to follow the depressing feeling that I have been starting to get that the Board quite liked talking to the fans when we were doing well and all the feedback was good but got rather less interested when it started to go wrong.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]I can't see how suggestions like putting more staff on the bars at half-time to generate more income for the club could not be considered as full solutions and sounds a bit like the club wanting to {further} distance the fans from any decision making...
One question which you may wish to decline answering Dave, was your decision to resign intended as a protest at the planned changes in the role of the forum?[/quote]
No protest by me, Harveys Trainer. I simply took the view that, if the remit is to change, others may find it easier to do justice to what is wanted. I have no problem with that, but can't commit to honouring those expectations - that's all.
[quote][cite]Posted By: valleyman[/cite]Well done for volunteering at the start, shame it didn't work...the Board seem to be saying:-
"not too interested in your views unless you come up with ideas where the fans spend more money like buying the score board"
At least we know where we stand!
I am probably being unfair but it tends to follow the depressing feeling that I have been starting to get that the Board quite liked talking to the fans when we were doing well and all the feedback was good but got rather less interested when it started to go wrong.[/quote]
I think that is unfair, valleyman. I think the Club is looking for a more pro-active Fans' Forum ... providing ideas and proposed solutions rather than going through the cycle of discussing the same recurring issues with the same recurring answers. Nothing wrong with that, but not something that I can personally commit to.
[cite]Posted By: Curb_It[/cite]So we didnt get the smoking area sorted then?
I have raised this point with my Dad, the problem you have is you cannot do it just for one stand you have to do it for all Four & the amount of people you would have to source to cover it make it un-workable. In other words they could do it but would need more people to do it which would increase matchday costs, anything that involves the words 'increase' & 'cost' at Charlton just gets dismissed sadly.
You'll just have to give up smoking, I saw something the other day about heart problems falling due to the smoking ban, do it you know it makes sense, better be an addick than an addict
[cite]Posted By: Curb_It[/cite]So we didnt get the smoking area sorted then?
I have raised this point with my Dad, the problem you have is you cannot do it just for one stand you have to do it for all Four & the amount of people you would have to source to cover it make it un-workable. In other words they could do it but would need more people to do it which would increase matchday costs, anything that involves the words 'increase' & 'cost' at Charlton just gets dismissed sadly.
So I have to continue to fight my way through the fug in order to have my half time piss :-)
As 1905 insinuates, the problem is more the impact on the potential comfort of non-smokers, particularly families, than on the actual smokers.
The club is one that is losing supporters, and the number one goal should be to retain as many supporters as we have and to ensure their afternoon / evening is as enjoyable as possible. That to me means the club have to embrace a much bigger 'can do' attitude, than a 'can't do' one.
The smoking situation is one that can be easily resolved with minimal costs. The main flashpoint areas are the North Upper. All that is needed to is to provide at half time a small, roped off area capacity 50 -100 outside the far gate nearest to the East Stand turnstiles, which is quite an isolated area. You would need two stewards, with radio access to other stewards in the small possibility of any problems. Those two stewards can be saved from elsewhere from those whose job it currently is to try and patrol the toilets, stairwells etc. Most people will tell you the vast majority of the stewards spend the half time either chatting or gormlessly looking into space, so there is no feasible need for additional stewarding. As soon as the 2nd half is to kick off, you make it known the gate will be closed in 2 minutes.
This would take away both the discomfort of non-smokers having to endure smoke they don't want to, the indignity of smokers having to smoke in a toilet like a schoolboy, and the potential flashpoints with stewards / fellow supporters when try to stop people smoking, or in the worst scenario, seeking to eject someone.
Costs are minimal, incidents potentially reduced, and customers more satisfied. If they can make it work at Millwall of all places letting fans out the ground at half time, there is no reason we can't make it work here.
Similarly, it would take just one steward in the East Stand if the raised area by the Sam Bartram entrance (inside the ground) was used in a similar way. Then you would have two thirds of the home support being provided with potential additional facilities at no extra cost, and the well being of everyone else who do not want to encounter cigarette smoke improved.
I don't see any reason why something like this can't be trialled on say a 3 game basis and then reviewed. As i said at the beginning, the club needs to do a lot more to reach out to its supporters / customers, even if it is something they may not want to do in an ideal scenario. The lower we go, the more essential it becomes that the supporters are retained.
Wish i could put across my point as well as that Dan. Shall we write to the club. Just half way through an email to derby county but was hoping dave woudl get back to me with some more details.
"Most people will tell you the vast majority of the stewards spend the half time either chatting or gormlessly looking into space, so there is no feasible need for additional stewarding"
that is what i find so annoying so many are getting paid to just stand and chat and watch a football match
[quote][cite]Posted By: Curb_It[/cite]Wish i could put across my point as well as that Dan. Shall we write to the club. Just half way through an email to derby county but was hoping dave woudl get back to me with some more details.[/quote]
Curb_It .... I don't have any of the details. All I know is that Derby County have supposedly addressed the problem to the satisfaction of many fans. I think that appears on a thread elsewhere on this board, but I could be wrong.
The main point is that the Club will tell you that smoking is illegal in the stadium. The counterpoint is that other clubs seem to have addressed the issue. So Charlton expects you, as a fan, to find out the details and come back to the Club with a proposal. That example reflects the expected remit of any revised Fans' Forum. And that is not something that I am personally able to commit to.
The bottom line is that you need to find out who to contact at Derby County (if, indeed, Derby are the role model we need to follow). Find out who is the Operations Manager there and call or write to him/her (I don't mean to imply that he is a trans-sexual, just being a bit PC for those who would otherwise get offended). Find out if Derby fans (smokers and non-smokers) are OK with how it works. Find out if it is costing Derby anything to implement. Pre-empt Charlton's questions and negativity and get answers before those questions are asked. Etc. Etc.
Smudge you make some good points, but I am sure you are over simplifying some of the parts re the stewarding. I'll go back to my original point, you cannot do it for one stand only, you do it for all or none. Plus I think people are underestimating the volume of people who would use this facility two stewards would be not nearly enough per stand in my view & probably the clubs as well. However, if someone wants to compile a reasoned argument detailing all the plus points & counter arguing any downsides please e-mail it to Mick.everett@cafc.co.uk & I am sure he'll give it his full attention.
Comments
In other words they been on the lash watching football and drinking beer all weekend. ;-)
Dont blame them
As mentioned prior to the meeting, the main topic of the agenda was a review of the remit and effectiveness to date of the Fans' Forum.
It was agreed that there was general disappointment with the achievements of the Fans' Forum since its inception in October 2008. Meetings with the Club have tended to consist of a series of questions or complaints from fans, but without proposed suggestions or ideas for improvement. As a result, the Club is generally expected to deal with recurring topics (catering, smoking etc) and little or no progress seems to be made. Recent questions around the value for money of the non-football management structure were not received kindly and there was a clear sense of indignation from the Club at such topics being raised by the Fans' Forum. We were asked to trust the Club more and to respect the fact that such matters were being addressed.
During discussion, the original remit of the Fans' Forum was reviewed. This was originally stated as follows:
1) To maintain and build on the open, honest and constructive relationship between fans, staff and directors of Charlton Athletic
2) To facilitate two way communication betwen Fans and the Club and ensure that the interests and views of Charlton fans are actively considered at the highest level when decisions are made
3) To provide a point of contact for fans to refer questions, queries and suggestions
4) To communicate to fans on the reasons for, and thinking behind, Football Club and PLC decisions
5) To enable Charlton Athletic FC to maintain its high standards of supporter health, safety, enjoyment and well being
It became clear that the Club expects the Fans' Forum to act more as a reviewing body for ideas and suggestions such that it could come to the Club with proposals for the way forward rather than simply communicating the areas for improvement which fans have identified.
To that end, the members of the Fans' Forum were asked to review the remit of the group and to come back to the Club within a two-week period with proposals for the revised scope and for the re-constitution of membership (including election process etc).
In keeping with the theme of improving the activities of the Fans' Forum, I took the personal view that this probable increase in remit and workload signalled the end of my own involvement with the group, and that it would provide the opportunity for a fresh approach and fresh ideas. Accordingly, I expect the remaining members of the Fans' Forum (Tony Garrett, Matt Dainty, Geoff Billingsley and Gavin Barrett) to meet shortly to develop the revised remit of the new group. I wish them, and any new members who are subsequently recruited, the very best of luck in their endeavours, and express my thanks to all concerned for a hugely enjoyable, if less than productive, time with the Fans' Forum.
The remainder of the meeting consisted of a fairly rapid run through the long list of agenda items which had previously been prepared. You can imagine though that, in view of the preceeding discussion, enthusiasm for dealing with a large number of questions from fans (without ideas or suggestions for improvement) was not high. Nevertheless, a professional job was done and we do have some snippets of information which we plan to make public, but which will need to be vetted by the Club first.
One point which I will venture is that the Club is very open to the idea of fans funding an electronic scoreboard. The current 'big screen' has outlived its usefulness, but proposals for the financing and introduction of a replacement (although maybe less sophisticated) would be welcomed. Steve Kavanagh agreed to get some idea of potential costs, so this could be a real opportunity for fans, via the Fan's Forum in its new colours, to make a real difference. I hope so.
I'm sorry that there is less here than you might have wished, but it was a strange, yet interesting meeting. I'll summarise the remaining points and get those to the Club for approval and then make those available when I can.
Its sounds like there is a change in style here and what the more reflects the real view of the club towards the forum and indeed the fans
Thanks for all your efforts Dave
How many left from the original line up now? Doesnt appear to have gone as planned.
How many left from the original line up now? Doesnt appear to have gone as planned.[/quote]
Tony Garrett, Geoff Billingsley and Gavin Barrett remain from the original line-up ... and Lars Liljegren, of course, for the Overseas Addicks.
so it's no longer a fan forum, instead a fan think tank.
One question which you may wish to decline answering Dave, was your decision to resign intended as a protest at the planned changes in the role of the forum?
Ill throw my two penny worth in.
Idea for a new (less sophistcated) scoreboard:
"not too interested in your views unless you come up with ideas where the fans spend more money like buying the score board"
At least we know where we stand!
I am probably being unfair but it tends to follow the depressing feeling that I have been starting to get that the Board quite liked talking to the fans when we were doing well and all the feedback was good but got rather less interested when it started to go wrong.
One question which you may wish to decline answering Dave, was your decision to resign intended as a protest at the planned changes in the role of the forum?[/quote]
No protest by me, Harveys Trainer. I simply took the view that, if the remit is to change, others may find it easier to do justice to what is wanted. I have no problem with that, but can't commit to honouring those expectations - that's all.
"not too interested in your views unless you come up with ideas where the fans spend more money like buying the score board"
At least we know where we stand!
I am probably being unfair but it tends to follow the depressing feeling that I have been starting to get that the Board quite liked talking to the fans when we were doing well and all the feedback was good but got rather less interested when it started to go wrong.[/quote]
I think that is unfair, valleyman. I think the Club is looking for a more pro-active Fans' Forum ... providing ideas and proposed solutions rather than going through the cycle of discussing the same recurring issues with the same recurring answers. Nothing wrong with that, but not something that I can personally commit to.
Someone needs to talk to Derby County. Get on the phone, Curb_It. Sort it out.
Get my drift?
I have raised this point with my Dad, the problem you have is you cannot do it just for one stand you have to do it for all Four & the amount of people you would have to source to cover it make it un-workable. In other words they could do it but would need more people to do it which would increase matchday costs, anything that involves the words 'increase' & 'cost' at Charlton just gets dismissed sadly.
So I have to continue to fight my way through the fug in order to have my half time piss :-)
The club is one that is losing supporters, and the number one goal should be to retain as many supporters as we have and to ensure their afternoon / evening is as enjoyable as possible. That to me means the club have to embrace a much bigger 'can do' attitude, than a 'can't do' one.
The smoking situation is one that can be easily resolved with minimal costs. The main flashpoint areas are the North Upper. All that is needed to is to provide at half time a small, roped off area capacity 50 -100 outside the far gate nearest to the East Stand turnstiles, which is quite an isolated area. You would need two stewards, with radio access to other stewards in the small possibility of any problems. Those two stewards can be saved from elsewhere from those whose job it currently is to try and patrol the toilets, stairwells etc. Most people will tell you the vast majority of the stewards spend the half time either chatting or gormlessly looking into space, so there is no feasible need for additional stewarding. As soon as the 2nd half is to kick off, you make it known the gate will be closed in 2 minutes.
This would take away both the discomfort of non-smokers having to endure smoke they don't want to, the indignity of smokers having to smoke in a toilet like a schoolboy, and the potential flashpoints with stewards / fellow supporters when try to stop people smoking, or in the worst scenario, seeking to eject someone.
Costs are minimal, incidents potentially reduced, and customers more satisfied. If they can make it work at Millwall of all places letting fans out the ground at half time, there is no reason we can't make it work here.
Similarly, it would take just one steward in the East Stand if the raised area by the Sam Bartram entrance (inside the ground) was used in a similar way. Then you would have two thirds of the home support being provided with potential additional facilities at no extra cost, and the well being of everyone else who do not want to encounter cigarette smoke improved.
I don't see any reason why something like this can't be trialled on say a 3 game basis and then reviewed. As i said at the beginning, the club needs to do a lot more to reach out to its supporters / customers, even if it is something they may not want to do in an ideal scenario. The lower we go, the more essential it becomes that the supporters are retained.
"Most people will tell you the vast majority of the stewards spend the half time either chatting or gormlessly looking into space, so there is no feasible need for additional stewarding"
that is what i find so annoying so many are getting paid to just stand and chat and watch a football match
Curb_It .... I don't have any of the details. All I know is that Derby County have supposedly addressed the problem to the satisfaction of many fans. I think that appears on a thread elsewhere on this board, but I could be wrong.
The main point is that the Club will tell you that smoking is illegal in the stadium. The counterpoint is that other clubs seem to have addressed the issue. So Charlton expects you, as a fan, to find out the details and come back to the Club with a proposal. That example reflects the expected remit of any revised Fans' Forum. And that is not something that I am personally able to commit to.
The bottom line is that you need to find out who to contact at Derby County (if, indeed, Derby are the role model we need to follow). Find out who is the Operations Manager there and call or write to him/her (I don't mean to imply that he is a trans-sexual, just being a bit PC for those who would otherwise get offended). Find out if Derby fans (smokers and non-smokers) are OK with how it works. Find out if it is costing Derby anything to implement. Pre-empt Charlton's questions and negativity and get answers before those questions are asked. Etc. Etc.
Hope this helps to identify the way forward.
I feel like Napoleon.