they few of you that take your petty squabbles with each other from thread to thread, the rest of us are pig bored with it, and its dominating every single related subject.
Those of you that clearly enjoy that, set up a group inbox with each other and dig away until your hearts content.
Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.
Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.
Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.
Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.
Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.
Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.
Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.
Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.
Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.
Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.
I think you are right about the referéndum - it would have avoided the injuries and bloodshed and been much less damaging image wise just to let them have their fun and ignore it afterwards. However, we would basically be in the same place this morning - the Independence movement would have won, and announce Independence within 48 hours, At some point the government in Madrid were going to wake up and block this - they still will, so while it would have avoided yesterdays appalling scenes, it would have left us roughly where we are now anyway. There's no ignoring a section of your country that is preparing to unilaterally break away.
Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.
Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.
Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.
I think you are right about the referéndum - it would have avoided the injuries and bloodshed and been much less damaging image wise. However, we would basically be in the same place this morning - the Independence movement would have won, and announce Independence within 48 hours, At some point the government in Madrid were going to wake up and block this - they still will, so while it would have avoided yesterdays appalling scenes, it would have left us roughly where we are now anyway.
So it definitely would have been better then - we'd be exactly where we are but less grannies would have been clubbed by policemen.
Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.
Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.
Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.
I think you are right about the referéndum - it would have avoided the injuries and bloodshed and been much less damaging image wise just to let them have their fun and ignore it afterwards. However, we would basically be in the same place this morning - the Independence movement would have won, and announce Independence within 48 hours, At some point the government in Madrid were going to wake up and block this - they still will, so while it would have avoided yesterdays appalling scenes, it would have left us roughly where we are now anyway. There's no ignoring a section of your country that is preparing to unilaterally break away.
By roughly where we are, you mean in a totally different place, all they have achieved is to galvanize more support/sympathy for their 'opponents' - yes, Independence would have still been declared after the electoral 'victory' but with, I imagine, a fraction of the support.
It makes it much easier to make the argument of oppression when the world has just seen Spanish police clubbing innocent protestors and old ladies.
It is profoundly depressing to look look at how both sides have acted over the "referendum".
Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).
The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).
The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.
It is profoundly depressing to look look at how both sides have acted over the "referendum".
Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).
The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).
The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.
Both sides had an agenda and the pro independence lobby have been handed a major propaganda coup by central government. The Spanish Civil War and the actions of Franco are not that distant a memory and the last few days will inevitably be used to stir up old divisions.
I don't know enough about the motives of those seeking independence but they've certainly been given a major boost over the weekend.
It is profoundly depressing to look look at how both sides have acted over the "referendum".
Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).
The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).
The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.
To a certain extent the Catalan leaders disrespected the safety of their citizens but what normal person would have expected how aggressive the response would be? If you had told me what had occurred without me having access to the video evidence provided by the BBC etc I would have laughed at you. A normal western democracy doesn't behave this way.
Europe has to act as these kind of actions were the start of the breakdown of Yugoslavia and history tells us that evil and insanity needs no encouragement.
It is profoundly depressing to look look at how both sides have acted over the "referendum".
Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).
The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).
The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.
To a certain extent the Catalan leaders disrespected the safety of their citizens but what normal person would have expected how aggressive the response would be? If you had told me what had occurred without me having access to the video evidence provided by the BBC etc I would have laughed at you. A normal western democracy doesn't behave this way.
Europe has to act as these kind of actions were the start of the breakdown of Yugoslavia and history tells us that evil and insanity needs no encouragement.
There is no easy solution now - the independence movement are firmly in control. Not sure where this will lead?
many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty. I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.
Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.
As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote
Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.
Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.
Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.
I think you are right about the referéndum - it would have avoided the injuries and bloodshed and been much less damaging image wise just to let them have their fun and ignore it afterwards. However, we would basically be in the same place this morning - the Independence movement would have won, and announce Independence within 48 hours, At some point the government in Madrid were going to wake up and block this - they still will, so while it would have avoided yesterdays appalling scenes, it would have left us roughly where we are now anyway. There's no ignoring a section of your country that is preparing to unilaterally break away.
By roughly where we are, you mean in a totally different place, all they have achieved is to galvanize more support/sympathy for their 'opponents' - yes, Independence would have still been declared after the electoral 'victory' but with, I imagine, a fraction of the support.
It makes it much easier to make the argument of oppression when the world has just seen Spanish police clubbing innocent protestors and old ladies.
They will certainly have gained some support by this - its an utterly 'us and them' situation. However, the support for Independence hasn't been a fraction for decades. It was around 43% in 2014 and judging by the turnout and result yesterday, it's roughly at the same level. How many are on the middle ground and might 'swing' against Spain is a huge question now, as the obvious way out of this mess without some sort of insurrection would be a properly agreed referéndum. I don't see that gaining much ground in Madrid this morning which is why I think things will get worse short term.
many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty. I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.
Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.
As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote
It is profoundly depressing to look look at how both sides have acted over the "referendum".
Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).
The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).
The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.
To a certain extent the Catalan leaders disrespected the safety of their citizens but what normal person would have expected how aggressive the response would be? If you had told me what had occurred without me having access to the video evidence provided by the BBC etc I would have laughed at you. A normal western democracy doesn't behave this way.
Europe has to act as these kind of actions were the start of the breakdown of Yugoslavia and history tells us that evil and insanity needs no encouragement.
many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty. I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.
Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.
As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote
Are you referring to the utter contempt for the 63% who did not vote for Brexit?
many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty. I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.
Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.
As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote
Fantastic shoehorning there!
Quite simply amazing. I was hovering over the like button for most of that, and then the final half a sentence appeared out of nowhere completely unrelated to anything else.
many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty. I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.
Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.
As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote
Are you referring to the utter contempt for the 63% who did not vote for Brexit?
68% of Germans didn't vote for Merkel. Does that constitute them being held in utter contempt?
many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty. I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.
Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.
As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote
Fantastic shoehorning there!
Quite simply amazing. I was hovering over the like button for most of that, and then the final half a sentence appeared out of nowhere completely unrelated to anything else.
many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty. I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.
Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.
As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote
Are you referring to the utter contempt for the 63% who did not vote for Brexit?
68% of Germans didn't vote for Merkel. Does that constitute them being held in utter contempt?
That's not a constitutional matter though, so the decision can be reversed at the next election. We are saddled forever by the result of an undemocratic vote.
many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty. I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.
Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.
As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote
Fantastic shoehorning there!
Quite simply amazing. I was hovering over the like button for most of that, and then the final half a sentence appeared out of nowhere completely unrelated to anything else.
Found it laughable that in a case of voting for independence, Catalonia’s sports minister suggested FCB could play in the premier league. No policies have been properly thought through, especially being in the EU and would a national party (pro spain) be allowed in future elections. lunacy.
many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty. I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.
Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.
As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote
Are you referring to the utter contempt for the 63% who did not vote for Brexit?
68% of Germans didn't vote for Merkel. Does that constitute them being held in utter contempt?
If Merkel was able to form a government without the support of some of the parties that the 68% voted for then yes, that would be showing contempt for the 68%. But that is not the case.
Until relatively recently the Spanish suffered terrorism from Basque separatists which was, in many ways, even nastier then we have become used to in the rest of Europe. I'm sure this must have an influence on the way the Spanish police and the general population react to similar movements.
Comments
Just joking you argumentative tits!
Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.
There's no ignoring a section of your country that is preparing to unilaterally break away.
It makes it much easier to make the argument of oppression when the world has just seen Spanish police clubbing innocent protestors and old ladies.
Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).
The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).
The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.
I don't know enough about the motives of those seeking independence but they've certainly been given a major boost over the weekend.
Europe has to act as these kind of actions were the start of the breakdown of Yugoslavia and history tells us that evil and insanity needs no encouragement.
I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.
Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.
As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote
No policies have been properly thought through, especially being in the EU and would a national party (pro spain) be allowed in future elections. lunacy.