Interesting doublethink at play if attempting to shoehorn the EU into this. Surely the EU aren't supposed to interfere and countries should be in charge of their own sovereignty?
Have a day off mate, only the alt-right are allowed to comment on days there has been any bad news.
.........and our 0640 BA flight from Gatwick to Barcelona tomorrow morning has been cancelled at short notice. I’m being careful not to moan too much given the atrocities going on elsewhere and the shambles that is monarch but just spent 3 hours sorting it out. Their first attempt was a flight from Heathrow to Madrid changing to Iberia to Barcelona. I said no thanks. We are now on the 1710 from Heathrow to Barcelona. A day of the holiday lost and a load of hassle tonight to reorganise my group of 8 but all in all it’s an irritation rather than a disaster. Fingers crossed for tomorrow though......
Interesting doublethink at play if attempting to shoehorn the EU into this. Surely the EU aren't supposed to interfere and countries should be in charge of their own sovereignty?
Said the exact same thing but a mod deleted it because Blackpool posted a totally inappropriate reply.
Nonsense I’d expect all European leaders and juncker and all his cronies to condem the actions of the Spanish government in the way it assaulted and beat its citizens
And the reason they won’t is they don’t want dissection within the ranks
This thread is not really for going on about the EU, but for discussing the Catalan independence vote. It would be good if it could avoid the same repeated stuff. The EU is not an obsession here like it is in the UK and is not used to blame all problems on in the same way. Perhaps some of the same old EU stuff would be better on the Brexit thread? I will try to follow my own advice!
i / we don't want to moderate anyone but imo there are a small number of posters who are repeatedly dominating virtually every political / contentious topic thread that I ever seem to view, and you @fiish have at times a real narky way of posting that gets under people's skins (I apologise for being frank) and for highlighting you in this instance.
You're by no means alone, and you are not being picked on. But I'm fed up with a small handful of people dominating discussions in such a way and you are one of them.
Everyone, please consider you approach to contributions on these type of threads otherwise we will have to make either individual or topic changes that ultimately we don't want to have to do. And if you are unsure whether this is also aimed at you, then it probably is.
i / we don't want to moderate anyone but imo there are a small number of posters who are repeatedly dominating virtually every political / contentious topic thread that I ever seem to view, and you @fiish have at times a real narky way of posting that gets under people's skins (I apologise for being frank) and for highlighting you in this instance.
You're by no means alone, and you are not being picked on. But I'm fed up with a small handful of people dominating discussions in such a way and you are one of them.
Everyone, please consider you approach to contributions on these type of threads otherwise we will have to make either individual or topic changes that ultimately we don't want to have to do. And if you are unsure whether this is also aimed at you, then it probably is.
Anything from the leaders of the eu condemning Spainish government ?
No, in fact the Vice President of European Parliament actually near enough condoned it and described it as a coup against Europe
Shitbags.
He's a Spanish MEP, from the same political party as the Spanish Government.
It looks, to all intents and purposes as he is using his own Twitter account to put forward his own opinion.
What would be surprising would be if he were to condemn the Spanish authorities.
As that Government's position seems to be that the "referendum" was illegal and anti-democratic, it is not too great a stretch for him to view it as an attempt at some sort of coup, albeit in slow motion.
I'm not saying that I agree with him (though I do think that much public opinion has been skilfully manipulated by the way in which the Catalan administration set up the confrontation), but I would hazard a guess that any form of coup within the EU could be viewed as against Europe (and certainly against European values, as defined by the EU).
Anything from the leaders of the eu condemning Spainish government ?
No, in fact the Vice President of European Parliament actually near enough condoned it and described it as a coup against Europe
Shitbags.
I'm not sure you are following the news outside twitter. The European Unión and most of the world condemned the violence by the pólice - it's widely reported by the Catalan and Spanish media here so there's not much dispute. What they also did was to avoid the childish resort that two wrongs make a right, and they also said the referéndum and any attempt to use it to unilaterally declare Independence was wrong. To be honest, even here in republican Catalunya, I've not seen anuyone saying that the European Unión condoned the violence used by the pólice.
It's a strike here today. Called suposedly as a response to the pólice violence, though as it was being generally aired last week, that seems a bit spurious. Rumour has it that it's being fairly haphazardly followed in Barcelona away from the Generalitat and Unión controlled workers. Here in Calella, it turns out we are some sort of epicentr, and even the bars which open 365 days a year have closed.
Following that, there is a story I heard yesterday but didn't mention as I couldn't be sure it was true, but it's turning up everywhere now. On sunday night, the Mayoress of Calella told a meeting of around 500 'activists' that hotels in Calella shouldn't be used as a barracks for foreign police (the Pólice shipped in for the referéndum were in three or four hotels in town). The activists marched int othe town and laid seige to the hotels. One, the Hotel Volga, recieved a pone call from the Mayoress that unleess they turfed out the pólice, she would unilaterally rescind the planning permission they had recieved for building work in the winter, so the hotel reluctantly threw them out. Another hotel, the Vila, was the scene of a battle, as the pólice after listening to non stop abuse from outside the hotel came out and fought with the protesters until the Catalan Pólice who had been passively watching, intervened. They also left that night. Last night arriving back in Calella from a trip to the gym, my family were informed the main road through the town was closed due to a protest. We went to look and it turned out the locals were outside the Guardia Civil barracks making a noise and generally trying to kick things off. For anyone who speaks spanish, this is now online in various forms on elmundo.es (Spain) and lavanguardia.com (Catalán) though I don't know whether there is an English translation option.
The final update is from the Generalitat. The major Independence party (PdeCat) met last night to debate how to push ahead with independence. A bit odd because the idea was originally to just win and declare. I think they thought the UE would dive in to help, but as the EU are wisely sitting this one out apart from asking both sides for dialogue, they may have found themselves in a cul de sac. I agreed with most of what @CharltonMadrid posted yesterday, but I don't agree with his conclusión that they want to negotiate. If clear heads ruled, they are in a position to get some real concessions from Madrid and come out with a win. The problem is that they have promised the electorate Independence no matter what, and were doing so after the results came out sunday, and with a 42% turnout (I don't know if the voters who want to stay in Spain could muster 42.5% as there are always some very apathetic people out there so that might possibly be enough to win) but my reading is that they have painted themselves into a corner. I think the idea was always Independence, not a better negotiated settlement, and it would be hard for a career politician to keep his seat in parliament if he came back now with talk of a reduced financial contribution to Madrid and less taxes on businesses in Catalunya. They are being told to move quickly however, as some of the international businesses located here are demanding to know what the final plans are, as they are getting ready to jump ship and move abroad. If I hear anything else concrete, I'll post it here.
Until relatively recently the Spanish suffered terrorism from Basque separatists which was, in many ways, even nastier then we have become used to in the rest of Europe. I'm sure this must have an influence on the way the Spanish police and the general population react to similar movements.
Steve the Guardia Civil are ostensibly a para military organisation left over from the days of Franco.....they were his version of Hitler's Brown Shirts. I can categorically assure you they need no encouragement whatsoever to dish it out. They love nothing more than a day out cracking a few skulls. They were always very nasty to the Basques going back decades to the time of the civil war and were stupidly responsible for even greater hatred by the Basques for main stream Spanish rule over the Basque Country. But that was of course that bastard Franco's modus operandi, a vile self proclaimed facist if ever there was one. Quite how he was allowed to carry on after the Second World War was/is quite shameful and is a stain on mankinds freedom. He should have gone the same way as Hitler and Mussolini, but by then free Europe had had enough of war and luckily for him everyone's attention was firmly fixed on problems elsewhere and the Cold War was well and truly in full flow. Franco of course hated the communist block and therefore de facto became allied to free Europe through the back door but was always treated with ill concealed disdain by one and all beyond the corridors of power in Madrid. NO PASARAN!
I think Spain should have just let the vote happen and then ignore the results. By resorting to violence, it legitimized the opposition. In these situations, the one who resorts to violence first usually loses.
Interesting to read the views from outside Spain on here but it appears that outside Catalonia most of the rest of Spain has become more united against what is seen as an attempted coup. The violence from the police has been rightfully condemned but there has been pretty much equal condemnation of what most recognise as a minority of Catalan separatists attempting to start an insurrection despite the national and Catalan courts stating that this vote was unconstitutional.
As many have noted on here, the abysmal government and police response has created massive sympathy for what is really a minority and previously quite discredited cause. Very well played by Puigdemont and very poor from Rajoy. Pedro Sanchez's Socialists will be able to make much political capital of this when the dust settles, especially as the PP is a minority government propped up by Ciudadanos (who have an interesting history themselves as being started as an anti-independence Catalan movement). Dialogue is needed now, but the PP have refused this so far. Whatever happens this should result in some much needed change from a very stagnant political system.
...@CharltonMadrid .....what is your sense about how Barcelona football fans see the future of their football club? Do they seriously believe they should be allowed to continue to play in the Spanish league in the event of independence being achieved? Do they even want to continue to play in the Spanish league?
...@CharltonMadrid .....what is your sense about how Barcelona football fans see the future of their football club? Do they seriously believe they should be allowed to continue to play in the Spanish league in the event of independence being achieved? Do they even want to continue to play in the Spanish league?
Across the spectrum of Barcelona fans there are those both for and against independence. The city itself is very multicultural and support for independence is less than in the provinces of Girona and Lleida, though the club has obviously become (and cleverly branded itself as) the national team of Catalunya. I guess those who want independence would imagine a deal would be struck to allow them and the other Catalan teams to play in the Spanish league like Monaco do in France. A Catalan league would be absurd as after Barca, Espanyol, Girona and Gimnastic Tarragona it would be amateur teams. Interestingly Espanyol themselves are the 'Spanish' team of Barcelona, originally created by migrant workers from the rest of Spain and now followed by those in Barcelona who don't want independence.
I am not disputing the police response was abysmal and disgraceful and deserves complete condemnation: I am saying the over the top ideas that there is going to be a civil war, that Spain is going to fall apart like Yugoslavia or that the country is fascist shows a real lack of understanding of both the situation now and the historical context.
It's this tendency to simplify, make random connections to things people know about (ie the EU) and engage in soundbites that stop proper and calm conversation happening, which is what Spain needs now.
Exactly: calm conversation. The point is that nobody died yesterday and that if both sides plus the opposition in Madrid play their cards sensibly then nobody needs to die. The separatists have today run a general strike but where is the unilateral declaration of independence? And what of the millions in Catalonia who do not support this course of action. In other words somebody might blink. And nobody outside of Spain is rushing to support the separatists. It will be interesting to see where this situation might be on Friday when the dust has settled.
The independence declaration should happen within 48 hours ie tonight. The rumour is Puigdemont is trying to wait till friday while hoping EU leaders offer to mediate and hooefully recognise his referendum as legal. That's not happening. Another grain of sand in his wheel is that a complaint gor violence against citizens has been turned gown by the Catalan court, as they say responsibility lies with those who called an illegal referenfum and incited them to blockade buildings and obstruct the police in the course of their duties. It also said the claim was an attempt to disguise the illegality of the vote by exagerated claims of brutality. All this was recieved via a media called Europepress who I've not heard of before. It sounds a likely outcome though, if suprising the ruling came here in Barcelona.
As for FC Barcelona. The rumour is they might play in the premiership if independence happens. What better way to show solidarity with Catalunya than push for independence, then leave all the other Catalan clubs in a regional nothing league while swanning of to England chasing money and glory. If it ever happened I'd love the FA to tell them where to stick it. After all if the choice was between money and principals, the FA would always go with....er....
As for FC Barcelona. The rumour is they might play in the premiership if independence happens. What better way to show solidarity with Catalunya than push for independence, then leave all the other Catalan clubs in a regional nothing league while swanning of to England chasing money and glory. If it ever happened I'd love the FA to tell them where to stick it. After all if the choice was between money and principals, the FA would always go with....er....
The Premier League and FA would never let this happen - They're too concerned about the integrity of the game. Money is never an issue...
Gerard Pique came in for lots of stick today at a Spanish national team training open session. Often outspoken about Catalan independence to gee up the Barcelona fans but happy to play for the national team has led to a lot of suggestions of hypocrisy, which seems pretty fair enough to me.
Gerard Pique came in for lots of stick today at a Spanish national team training open session. Often outspoken about Catalan independence to gee up the Barcelona fans but happy to play for the national team has led to a lot of suggestions of hypocrisy, which seems pretty fair enough to me.
Gerard Pique came in for lots of stick today at a Spanish national team training open session. Often outspoken about Catalan independence to gee up the Barcelona fans but happy to play for the national team has led to a lot of suggestions of hypocrisy, which seems pretty fair enough to me.
A bit harsh. Nobody questions Andy Murray's patriotism when he plays in the Davis Cup, but he voted for Scottish Independence. A Scottish athlete might support independence, but nobody would expect them to boycott the British Olympic team
Gerard Pique came in for lots of stick today at a Spanish national team training open session. Often outspoken about Catalan independence to gee up the Barcelona fans but happy to play for the national team has led to a lot of suggestions of hypocrisy, which seems pretty fair enough to me.
A bit harsh. Nobody questions Andy Murray's patriotism when he plays in the Davis Cup, but he voted for Scottish Independence. A Scottish athlete might support independence, but nobody would expect them to boycott the British Olympic team
If the Scots held an illegal referendum and he supported the subsequent unilateral Declaration of Independence I am pretty sure Andy Murray would withdraw from the Davis cup and Olympic teams.
Don't understand Pique's stance. He seems passionate about independence. Why does he want to continue to play for the Spanish national side?
'Equal condemnation' people beaten by police for trying to cast a vote condemned equally as much as the Catalonian government having an arguably 'illegal' referendum. Give me a fucking break.
Also regarding people protesting outside the Civil Guards place, pissing well right. If police had beaten any Group of brits to the extent they did just for placing a vote I'd expect fucking carnage.
I am just reporting people's views here. Thought it might be interesting to report on what is actually being discussed in the country where this is happening.
Comments
And the reason they won’t is they don’t want dissection within the ranks
You're by no means alone, and you are not being picked on. But I'm fed up with a small handful of people dominating discussions in such a way and you are one of them.
Everyone, please consider you approach to contributions on these type of threads otherwise we will have to make either individual or topic changes that ultimately we don't want to have to do. And if you are unsure whether this is also aimed at you, then it probably is.
Shitbags.
If Brexit hadn't happened and we were happy with the EU as a nation, it wouldn't be so contentious to bring it up in this thread.
Having seen the above post it looks like that chap has stated his position though!
It looks, to all intents and purposes as he is using his own Twitter account to put forward his own opinion.
What would be surprising would be if he were to condemn the Spanish authorities.
As that Government's position seems to be that the "referendum" was illegal and anti-democratic, it is not too great a stretch for him to view it as an attempt at some sort of coup, albeit in slow motion.
I'm not saying that I agree with him (though I do think that much public opinion has been skilfully manipulated by the way in which the Catalan administration set up the confrontation), but I would hazard a guess that any form of coup within the EU could be viewed as against Europe (and certainly against European values, as defined by the EU).
It's a strike here today. Called suposedly as a response to the pólice violence, though as it was being generally aired last week, that seems a bit spurious. Rumour has it that it's being fairly haphazardly followed in Barcelona away from the Generalitat and Unión controlled workers. Here in Calella, it turns out we are some sort of epicentr, and even the bars which open 365 days a year have closed.
Following that, there is a story I heard yesterday but didn't mention as I couldn't be sure it was true, but it's turning up everywhere now. On sunday night, the Mayoress of Calella told a meeting of around 500 'activists' that hotels in Calella shouldn't be used as a barracks for foreign police (the Pólice shipped in for the referéndum were in three or four hotels in town). The activists marched int othe town and laid seige to the hotels. One, the Hotel Volga, recieved a pone call from the Mayoress that unleess they turfed out the pólice, she would unilaterally rescind the planning permission they had recieved for building work in the winter, so the hotel reluctantly threw them out. Another hotel, the Vila, was the scene of a battle, as the pólice after listening to non stop abuse from outside the hotel came out and fought with the protesters until the Catalan Pólice who had been passively watching, intervened. They also left that night.
Last night arriving back in Calella from a trip to the gym, my family were informed the main road through the town was closed due to a protest. We went to look and it turned out the locals were outside the Guardia Civil barracks making a noise and generally trying to kick things off.
For anyone who speaks spanish, this is now online in various forms on elmundo.es (Spain) and lavanguardia.com (Catalán) though I don't know whether there is an English translation option.
The final update is from the Generalitat. The major Independence party (PdeCat) met last night to debate how to push ahead with independence. A bit odd because the idea was originally to just win and declare. I think they thought the UE would dive in to help, but as the EU are wisely sitting this one out apart from asking both sides for dialogue, they may have found themselves in a cul de sac. I agreed with most of what @CharltonMadrid posted yesterday, but I don't agree with his conclusión that they want to negotiate. If clear heads ruled, they are in a position to get some real concessions from Madrid and come out with a win. The problem is that they have promised the electorate Independence no matter what, and were doing so after the results came out sunday, and with a 42% turnout (I don't know if the voters who want to stay in Spain could muster 42.5% as there are always some very apathetic people out there so that might possibly be enough to win) but my reading is that they have painted themselves into a corner. I think the idea was always Independence, not a better negotiated settlement, and it would be hard for a career politician to keep his seat in parliament if he came back now with talk of a reduced financial contribution to Madrid and less taxes on businesses in Catalunya. They are being told to move quickly however, as some of the international businesses located here are demanding to know what the final plans are, as they are getting ready to jump ship and move abroad.
If I hear anything else concrete, I'll post it here.
I can categorically assure you they need no encouragement whatsoever to dish it out. They love nothing more than a day out cracking a few skulls.
They were always very nasty to the Basques going back decades to the time of the civil war and were stupidly responsible for even greater hatred by the Basques for main stream Spanish rule over the Basque Country. But that was of course that bastard Franco's modus operandi, a vile self proclaimed facist if ever there was one.
Quite how he was allowed to carry on after the Second World War was/is quite shameful and is a stain on mankinds freedom.
He should have gone the same way as Hitler and Mussolini, but by then free Europe had had enough of war and luckily for him everyone's attention was firmly fixed on problems elsewhere and the Cold War was well and truly in full flow. Franco of course hated the communist block and therefore de facto became allied to free Europe through the back door but was always treated with ill concealed disdain by one and all beyond the corridors of power in Madrid.
NO PASARAN!
As many have noted on here, the abysmal government and police response has created massive sympathy for what is really a minority and previously quite discredited cause. Very well played by Puigdemont and very poor from Rajoy. Pedro Sanchez's Socialists will be able to make much political capital of this when the dust settles, especially as the PP is a minority government propped up by Ciudadanos (who have an interesting history themselves as being started as an anti-independence Catalan movement). Dialogue is needed now, but the PP have refused this so far. Whatever happens this should result in some much needed change from a very stagnant political system.
The point is that nobody died yesterday and that if both sides plus the opposition in Madrid play their cards sensibly then nobody needs to die.
The separatists have today run a general strike but where is the unilateral declaration of independence? And what of the millions in Catalonia who do not support this course of action.
In other words somebody might blink. And nobody outside of Spain is rushing to support the separatists.
It will be interesting to see where this situation might be on Friday when the dust has settled.
Don't understand Pique's stance. He seems passionate about independence. Why does he want to continue to play for the Spanish national side?
Also regarding people protesting outside the Civil Guards place, pissing well right. If police had beaten any Group of brits to the extent they did just for placing a vote I'd expect fucking carnage.