That last bit is nailed on. I have been trawling around trying to find some sign of what they hope to achieve with this. There are some genuine gripes - the tax level is one of the highest in Spain, and makes openng a new business an almost impossible task in a fairly sunken market, but in order to lower unemployment, it is something the government have pushed. Anger with the government of Marino Rajoy is very high, and at the moment, anything you say to Independence voters regarding how awfull the consequences are likely to be is likely to be regarded as a simple backing of the unpopular 'Popular party'. As you say, student politics. There is still a simple bullish denial of what is happening - my neighbour is hugely in favor of Independence, and when I suggested last night it would cause an economic downturn of horrible proportions, he simply laughed and said no, nothing like that will happen. It is happening. Of the seven major Catalán companies who feature in the Spanish stock Exchange, six have moved their registration out of Catalunya. That is before this afternoon's parliament. The anti system types like the CUP are already hurling threats around- several town halls took their money put of the Banc Sabadell when it moved to Valencia, cheerfully ignoring that this will merely make more people question the wisdom of having more that a couple of euros invested in Catalunya. If you ask these people to talk about their aims, you get rhetoric about freedom to vote (we vote here for the Spanish elections, the Catalan parliament, the European elections and the town hall, but these guys cheerfully expect you to ignore that), and a few angry comments about Franco. Sadly, it would be almost imposible for Spain, even with a reborn Franco, to do more damage to Catalunya than the Independence movement will do to it themselves, but this round of cutting off noses will be blamed on Madrid to try and keep tempers running high. The Catalan news cannel, TV3 was still featuring injuries from the pólice charges last week as a major news ítem this morning. That's the bit of moral ground they have and they are firmly sticking to it.
That last bit is nailed on. I have been trawling around trying to find some sign of what they hope to achieve with this. There are some genuine gripes - the tax level is one of the highest in Spain, and makes openng a new business an almost impossible task in a fairly sunken market, but in order to lower unemployment, it is something the government have pushed. Anger with the government of Marino Rajoy is very high, and at the moment, anything you say to Independence voters regarding how awfull the consequences are likely to be is likely to be regarded as a simple backing of the unpopular 'Popular party'. As you say, student politics. There is still a simple bullish denial of what is happening - my neighbour is hugely in favor of Independence, and when I suggested last night it would cause an economic downturn of horrible proportions, he simply laughed and said no, nothing like that will happen. It is happening. Of the seven major Catalán companies who feature in the Spanish stock Exchange, six have moved their registration out of Catalunya. That is before this afternoon's parliament. The anti system types like the CUP are already hurling threats around- several town halls took their money put of the Banc Sabadell when it moved to Valencia, cheerfully ignoring that this will merely make more people question the wisdom of having more that a couple of euros invested in Catalunya. If you ask these people to talk about their aims, you get rhetoric about freedom to vote (we vote here for the Spanish elections, the Catalan parliament, the European elections and the town hall, but these guys cheerfully expect you to ignore that), and a few angry comments about Franco. Sadly, it would be almost imposible for Spain, even with a reborn Franco, to do more damage to Catalunya than the Independence movement will do to it themselves, but this round of cutting off noses will be blamed on Madrid to try and keep tempers running high. The Catalan news cannel, TV3 was still featuring injuries from the pólice charges last week as a major news ítem this morning. That's the bit of moral ground they have and they are firmly sticking to it.
The childish naive attitude towards economics is quite stunning - seems to be along the lines of 'Don't worry everything will be okay'.
The more ill-informed people are the easier it is to push things through. If you convince people they are victims or are being exploited you can get them to agree to anything even if it's not in their interests.
Never ceases to amaze me how trusting people are.....
But more of "them", in "their country" did not vote in the "referendum" than did - could it be that the c60% of the population are happy that they already have their country?
You might want to read up on the situation as it's rather complex. Fortunately there is lots of material available for anyone who wants to find out what is going on.
I've seen a few references, especially in the UK media, to the Catalan's right to decide. The SNP and Sinn Fein have both made statements in the European parliament about allowing the Catalans to be free, while cheerfully ignoring they generally are free, and a lot want nothing to do with this mess.
Members of the PdeCat which is Puigdemonts' party think theu will declare a UDI this afternoon.
Just landed back at Gatwick after another delayed flight although it was French air traffic controllers to blame this time rather than the local Catalonian situation. We had no trouble at all other than our cancelled outbound flight and had I not been reading the news we’d have known very little of what’s going on other than one rally being held adjacent to one of our golf courses at the weekend. Cambrils had a very end of season feel about it. Don’t know if that’s normal or not. Not a place I’d rush back to if I’m honest although the golf courses and the weather were both superb. A number of our party were floored by a very unpleasant gastro bug for a couple of days which didn’t help. First time for a while I’ve lost weight on holiday. All in all, quite pleased to be getting out of it today before whatever the announcement is.
I've seen a few references, especially in the UK media, to the Catalan's right to decide. The SNP and Sinn Fein have both made statements in the European parliament about allowing the Catalans to be free, while cheerfully ignoring they generally are free, and a lot want nothing to do with this mess.
Members of the PdeCat which is Puigdemonts' party think theu will declare a UDI this afternoon.
Think most of the British press have expressed their concerns - the economic arguments are easy to articulate as is the dodgy way the referendum was held.
Trying to portray the Catalans as 'oppressed' isn't really gathering much support.
Just landed back at Gatwick after another delayed flight although it was French air traffic controllers to blame this time rather than the local Catalonian situation. We had no trouble at all other than our cancelled outbound flight and had I not been reading the news we’d have known very little of what’s going on other than one rally being held adjacent to one of our golf courses at the weekend. Cambrils had a very end of season feel about it. Don’t know if that’s normal or not. Not a place I’d rush back to if I’m honest although the golf courses and the weather were both superb. A number of our party were floored by a very unpleasant gastro bug for a couple of days which didn’t help. First time for a while I’ve lost weight on holiday. All in all, quite pleased to be getting out of it today before whatever the announcement is.
This part of Spain doesn't really go all year round - most hotels on the Catalan coast will close down at the end of october until march/easter time. Sorry to hear about the bug :-(
But more of "them", in "their country" did not vote in the "referendum" than did - could it be that the c60% of the population are happy that they already have their country?
I'm not sure the percentage who voted in such circumstances, with all the police disruption, can be taken to prove what the people wanted, either way. The same applies to the leave vote
The vote hold no real mandate to leave, however it would be foolish to assume that the numbers wanting to leave are a tiny minority. It would seem sensible to have a proper debate and vote on this matter, as it's not going to go away.
But more of "them", in "their country" did not vote in the "referendum" than did - could it be that the c60% of the population are happy that they already have their country?
I'm not sure the percentage who voted in such circumstances, with all the police disruption, can be taken to prove what the people wanted, either way. The same applies to the leave vote
The vote hold no real mandate to leave, however it would be foolish to assume that the numbers wanting to leave are a tiny minority. It would seem sensible to have a proper debate and vote on this matter, as it's not going to go away.
I was only trying to point out that, even with the figures put forward by the Catalan government, a minority of Catalans voted, and a smaller minority for independence, and questioned whether the remainder (whether they defined themselves to be Catalans or not) were happy to be Spanish.
If I was going to be super picky about numbers, I might also throw out there the idea (mentioned in a few reports) that it was possible for individuals to vote a number of times, as well as some ballot boxes being confiscated. As an unofficial referendum, it was not rigorously monitored and I think it is reasonable to question the actions of all sides.
My understanding is that it wasn't a legal referendum as only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution - this constitution was approved by Catalan voters.
I don't see how an illegal referendum which wasn't properly monitored can allow Catalunya to unilaterally declare independence - I can't see how this can end well.
Puidgemont doesn't seem to respect the rule of law and he's using the ghosts of Spain's past to justify his half-baked agenda. If any blood is spilt I hope he takes responsibility.
That last bit is nailed on. I have been trawling around trying to find some sign of what they hope to achieve with this. There are some genuine gripes - the tax level is one of the highest in Spain, and makes openng a new business an almost impossible task in a fairly sunken market, but in order to lower unemployment, it is something the government have pushed. Anger with the government of Marino Rajoy is very high, and at the moment, anything you say to Independence voters regarding how awfull the consequences are likely to be is likely to be regarded as a simple backing of the unpopular 'Popular party'. As you say, student politics. There is still a simple bullish denial of what is happening - my neighbour is hugely in favor of Independence, and when I suggested last night it would cause an economic downturn of horrible proportions, he simply laughed and said no, nothing like that will happen. It is happening. Of the seven major Catalán companies who feature in the Spanish stock Exchange, six have moved their registration out of Catalunya. That is before this afternoon's parliament. The anti system types like the CUP are already hurling threats around- several town halls took their money put of the Banc Sabadell when it moved to Valencia, cheerfully ignoring that this will merely make more people question the wisdom of having more that a couple of euros invested in Catalunya. If you ask these people to talk about their aims, you get rhetoric about freedom to vote (we vote here for the Spanish elections, the Catalan parliament, the European elections and the town hall, but these guys cheerfully expect you to ignore that), and a few angry comments about Franco. Sadly, it would be almost imposible for Spain, even with a reborn Franco, to do more damage to Catalunya than the Independence movement will do to it themselves, but this round of cutting off noses will be blamed on Madrid to try and keep tempers running high. The Catalan news cannel, TV3 was still featuring injuries from the pólice charges last week as a major news ítem this morning. That's the bit of moral ground they have and they are firmly sticking to it.
The childish naive attitude towards economics is quite stunning - seems to be along the lines of 'Don't worry everything will be okay'.
The more ill-informed people are the easier it is to push things through. If you convince people they are victims or are being exploited you can get them to agree to anything even if it's not in their interests.
Never ceases to amaze me how trusting people are.....
The EU has just called upon Rajoy and the secession leadership to enter into dialogue. Perhaps Rajoy should oblige by making a public offer so as to both slow down this rush to the cliff edge and show some empathy for other perspectives.
Meanwhile the much anticipated announcement at 6pm CET has been postponed by an hour.
That last bit is nailed on. I have been trawling around trying to find some sign of what they hope to achieve with this. There are some genuine gripes - the tax level is one of the highest in Spain, and makes openng a new business an almost impossible task in a fairly sunken market, but in order to lower unemployment, it is something the government have pushed. Anger with the government of Marino Rajoy is very high, and at the moment, anything you say to Independence voters regarding how awfull the consequences are likely to be is likely to be regarded as a simple backing of the unpopular 'Popular party'. As you say, student politics. There is still a simple bullish denial of what is happening - my neighbour is hugely in favor of Independence, and when I suggested last night it would cause an economic downturn of horrible proportions, he simply laughed and said no, nothing like that will happen. It is happening. Of the seven major Catalán companies who feature in the Spanish stock Exchange, six have moved their registration out of Catalunya. That is before this afternoon's parliament. The anti system types like the CUP are already hurling threats around- several town halls took their money put of the Banc Sabadell when it moved to Valencia, cheerfully ignoring that this will merely make more people question the wisdom of having more that a couple of euros invested in Catalunya. If you ask these people to talk about their aims, you get rhetoric about freedom to vote (we vote here for the Spanish elections, the Catalan parliament, the European elections and the town hall, but these guys cheerfully expect you to ignore that), and a few angry comments about Franco. Sadly, it would be almost imposible for Spain, even with a reborn Franco, to do more damage to Catalunya than the Independence movement will do to it themselves, but this round of cutting off noses will be blamed on Madrid to try and keep tempers running high. The Catalan news cannel, TV3 was still featuring injuries from the pólice charges last week as a major news ítem this morning. That's the bit of moral ground they have and they are firmly sticking to it.
The childish naive attitude towards economics is quite stunning - seems to be along the lines of 'Don't worry everything will be okay'.
The more ill-informed people are the easier it is to push things through. If you convince people they are victims or are being exploited you can get them to agree to anything even if it's not in their interests.
Never ceases to amaze me how trusting people are.....
The EU has just called upon Rajoy and the secession leadership to enter into dialogue. Perhaps Rajoy should oblige by making a public offer so as to both slow down this rush to the cliff edge and show some empathy for other perspectives.
Meanwhile the much anticipated announcement at 6pm CET has been postponed by an hour.
I'm not really sure that you can show a great deal of empathy to the Catalan leaders who have shown a complete contempt for the rule of law - they've created the situation off their own back. I accept you have to talk to them but seriously declaring independence unilaterally on the basis of an illegal referendum which wasn't monitored properly which was boycotted by a large section of the population is pretty dumb and irresponsible.
News here says Puigdemont has been forced to delay because of a lack of support for his speech from the uneasy bedfellows of separatism, the anarchist CUP, who his centre right party have been trying to find common ground with to find a way forward for their independence project.
This fractured factionalism is very reminiscent of the in-fighting chronicled in Orwell's Homage to Catalonia.
My favourite player back in the day, would run through a brick wall and never knew what a lost cause was. Met him after a game at Crewe once as well when he was going to meet some old friends. Top lad, he was a bit concerned about the state of us and whether we would get home ok. Any other questions oh seeker of the truth?
My favourite player back in the day, would run through a brick wall and never knew what a lost cause was. Met him after a game at Crewe once as well when he was going to meet some old friends. Top lad, he was a bit concerned about the state of us and whether we would get home ok. Any other questions oh seeker of the truth?
Can you list the previous usernames you have used on this site?
My favourite player back in the day, would run through a brick wall and never knew what a lost cause was. Met him after a game at Crewe once as well when he was going to meet some old friends. Top lad, he was a bit concerned about the state of us and whether we would get home ok. Any other questions oh seeker of the truth?
Can you list the previous usernames you have used on this site?
Cut him a bit of slack ffs. He has a different opinion from some of us isn't that what a forum is for.
My favourite player back in the day, would run through a brick wall and never knew what a lost cause was. Met him after a game at Crewe once as well when he was going to meet some old friends. Top lad, he was a bit concerned about the state of us and whether we would get home ok. Any other questions oh seeker of the truth?
Apologies. Are you going on Saturday ? Perhaps I can buy you a pint by way of saying sorry. What pub do you use ?
Well, as expected he declared independence (though in quite an ambiguous way) but looked very unconvinced himself. Clearly under a lot of pressure from the jostling elements of separatism and being watched closely by Artur Mas, who has clearly orchestrated this all, there were some absurd statements about repression of the Catalan language which anyone who has ever been there could easily rebuke.
Ines Arrimades of Ciudadanos is giving him an excellent wakeup in her follow up speech about the economics of the situation and some of the nasty ethnic nationalism behind the movement. Hopefully this gets subtitled and seen widely to help people understand the reality of what's going on.
That last bit is nailed on. I have been trawling around trying to find some sign of what they hope to achieve with this. There are some genuine gripes - the tax level is one of the highest in Spain, and makes openng a new business an almost impossible task in a fairly sunken market, but in order to lower unemployment, it is something the government have pushed. Anger with the government of Marino Rajoy is very high, and at the moment, anything you say to Independence voters regarding how awfull the consequences are likely to be is likely to be regarded as a simple backing of the unpopular 'Popular party'. As you say, student politics. There is still a simple bullish denial of what is happening - my neighbour is hugely in favor of Independence, and when I suggested last night it would cause an economic downturn of horrible proportions, he simply laughed and said no, nothing like that will happen. It is happening. Of the seven major Catalán companies who feature in the Spanish stock Exchange, six have moved their registration out of Catalunya. That is before this afternoon's parliament. The anti system types like the CUP are already hurling threats around- several town halls took their money put of the Banc Sabadell when it moved to Valencia, cheerfully ignoring that this will merely make more people question the wisdom of having more that a couple of euros invested in Catalunya. If you ask these people to talk about their aims, you get rhetoric about freedom to vote (we vote here for the Spanish elections, the Catalan parliament, the European elections and the town hall, but these guys cheerfully expect you to ignore that), and a few angry comments about Franco. Sadly, it would be almost imposible for Spain, even with a reborn Franco, to do more damage to Catalunya than the Independence movement will do to it themselves, but this round of cutting off noses will be blamed on Madrid to try and keep tempers running high. The Catalan news cannel, TV3 was still featuring injuries from the pólice charges last week as a major news ítem this morning. That's the bit of moral ground they have and they are firmly sticking to it.
The childish naive attitude towards economics is quite stunning - seems to be along the lines of 'Don't worry everything will be okay'.
The more ill-informed people are the easier it is to push things through. If you convince people they are victims or are being exploited you can get them to agree to anything even if it's not in their interests.
Never ceases to amaze me how trusting people are.....
The EU has just called upon Rajoy and the secession leadership to enter into dialogue. Perhaps Rajoy should oblige by making a public offer so as to both slow down this rush to the cliff edge and show some empathy for other perspectives.
Meanwhile the much anticipated announcement at 6pm CET has been postponed by an hour.
I'm not really sure that you can show a great deal of empathy to the Catalan leaders who have shown a complete contempt for the rule of law - they've created the situation off their own back. I accept you have to talk to them but seriously declaring independence unilaterally on the basis of an illegal referendum which wasn't monitored properly which was boycotted by a large section of the population is pretty dumb and irresponsible.
Sure the referendum was not approved but this needs slowing down. And part of the secessionist legitimacy with their wider base is that Rajoy has refused to talk.
Watching the speech now with a challenging interpreter... he really is playing the victim and then we had "will of the people" bollox... and then he proposes "dialogue". Plus deferral of any declaration. (Nice one!)
But Rajoy has already said no to talks under the threat of independence. Let's be clear - that wasn't even a legitimate advisory vote and there was no campaign. 12 million ballots confiscated and yet only 5 million on the electoral role?
Ah well, more time for business to move jobs and assets out of the region. Which is what will surely happen if they follow a legal route. They've just killed any case for investment and removed themselves from the candidate list for the European medical regulator which is to move from London.
There are regional elections in 2019 - we will see who is planning what So as to be in the best place for that vote.
The only people offering support are SNP, Sinn Fein and perhaps anti EU alt right who see this as a threat to the current order.
Very manipulative speech by him and can't really see what the Spanish government can do. Inevitably the memory of Franco will be thrown into the mix and Puidgemont seems to be claiming a legal status for the region in its desire for independence.
If independence has been declared via an illegal process and the Catalan government is effectively declaring the Spanish constitution no longer applicable then what is there to discuss?
Comments
There is still a simple bullish denial of what is happening - my neighbour is hugely in favor of Independence, and when I suggested last night it would cause an economic downturn of horrible proportions, he simply laughed and said no, nothing like that will happen. It is happening. Of the seven major Catalán companies who feature in the Spanish stock Exchange, six have moved their registration out of Catalunya. That is before this afternoon's parliament. The anti system types like the CUP are already hurling threats around- several town halls took their money put of the Banc Sabadell when it moved to Valencia, cheerfully ignoring that this will merely make more people question the wisdom of having more that a couple of euros invested in Catalunya.
If you ask these people to talk about their aims, you get rhetoric about freedom to vote (we vote here for the Spanish elections, the Catalan parliament, the European elections and the town hall, but these guys cheerfully expect you to ignore that), and a few angry comments about Franco. Sadly, it would be almost imposible for Spain, even with a reborn Franco, to do more damage to Catalunya than the Independence movement will do to it themselves, but this round of cutting off noses will be blamed on Madrid to try and keep tempers running high. The Catalan news cannel, TV3 was still featuring injuries from the pólice charges last week as a major news ítem this morning. That's the bit of moral ground they have and they are firmly sticking to it.
The more ill-informed people are the easier it is to push things through. If you convince people they are victims or are being exploited you can get them to agree to anything even if it's not in their interests.
Never ceases to amaze me how trusting people are.....
Members of the PdeCat which is Puigdemonts' party think theu will declare a UDI this afternoon.
Trying to portray the Catalans as 'oppressed' isn't really gathering much support.
The vote hold no real mandate to leave, however it would be foolish to assume that the numbers wanting to leave are a tiny minority. It would seem sensible to have a proper debate and vote on this matter, as it's not going to go away.
If I was going to be super picky about numbers, I might also throw out there the idea (mentioned in a few reports) that it was possible for individuals to vote a number of times, as well as some ballot boxes being confiscated. As an unofficial referendum, it was not rigorously monitored and I think it is reasonable to question the actions of all sides.
I don't see how an illegal referendum which wasn't properly monitored can allow Catalunya to unilaterally declare independence - I can't see how this can end well.
Puidgemont doesn't seem to respect the rule of law and he's using the ghosts of Spain's past to justify his half-baked agenda. If any blood is spilt I hope he takes responsibility.
What a mess.....
Meanwhile the much anticipated announcement at 6pm CET has been postponed by an hour.
This fractured factionalism is very reminiscent of the in-fighting chronicled in Orwell's Homage to Catalonia.
He has a different opinion from some of us isn't that what a forum is for.
Ines Arrimades of Ciudadanos is giving him an excellent wakeup in her follow up speech about the economics of the situation and some of the nasty ethnic nationalism behind the movement. Hopefully this gets subtitled and seen widely to help people understand the reality of what's going on.
Watching the speech now with a challenging interpreter... he really is playing the victim and then we had "will of the people" bollox... and then he proposes "dialogue". Plus deferral of any declaration. (Nice one!)
But Rajoy has already said no to talks under the threat of independence. Let's be clear - that wasn't even a legitimate advisory vote and there was no campaign. 12 million ballots confiscated and yet only 5 million on the electoral role?
Ah well, more time for business to move jobs and assets out of the region. Which is what will surely happen if they follow a legal route. They've just killed any case for investment and removed themselves from the candidate list for the European medical regulator which is to move from London.
There are regional elections in 2019 - we will see who is planning what So as to be in the best place for that vote.
The only people offering support are SNP, Sinn Fein and perhaps anti EU alt right who see this as a threat to the current order.
If independence has been declared via an illegal process and the Catalan government is effectively declaring the Spanish constitution no longer applicable then what is there to discuss?
A ludicrous state of affairs....