Disgraceful behaviour from the Spanish State. My sympathies are with those who wanted to vote but couldn't because the State saw fit to hurt them and spray them with noxious chemicals.
But not with the 35 million other Spaniards who didn't get a vote on it?
Not quite as simple as people think, really
I didn't get a vote on Scottish independence ........
I'll educate you WSS. Scotland was/is part of the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland. Scotland sought a vote to leave the UK. It was allowed. The Scottish Nationalists lost. However in true EU style they'll have another go.
I'll educate you WSS. Scotland was/is part of the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland. Scotland sought a vote to leave the UK. It was allowed. The Scottish Nationalists lost. However in true EU style they'll have another go.
Really?! Bloody hell.
In that case, if it's a direct comparison, I didn't realise that Catalonia was a country in its own right (like England, Wales, Scotland, NI) and was part of the Kingdom of Spain. Thanks for letting me know.
Why don't they have their own international team and why does the country of the UK have four? Maybe they're just behind us a bit?
Do they want to become like somewhere like Andorra?
Absolutely disgraceful. What I find astonishing is The usual suspects trying to shift blame to 'nationalists'. The blame lays directly with the Spanish government and the civil guard. This is fascism, outright.
Let's look at the direct violation of human rights, the right to express opinion freely, the right to vote, the physical attacks on innocent men and women invoking their democratic rights.
If I'm correct, The Catalonia ministers passed the referendum as legal and the Spanish government won't sit down and discuss it as they're shitting themselves due to Catalonia contributing around a 5th of Spain's economy.
I'm not 100% clued up but there is absolutely no way anyone can argue or make excuses for what the Spanish have done today, regardless of whether you believe the referendum was right or wrong.
I remember when England games used to have The Union flag flying more than the St George's Cross - did Euro '96 change that?
I've always wondered why, when I watch the highlights of the '66 World Cup final lots of people had Union Jacks as much, if not more, than St George's flags.
Absolutely disgraceful. What I find astonishing is The usual suspects trying to shift blame to 'nationalists'. The blame lays directly with the Spanish government and the civil guard. This is fascism, outright.
Let's look at the direct violation of human rights, the right to express opinion freely, the right to vote, the physical attacks on innocent men and women invoking their democratic rights.
If I'm correct, The Catalonia ministers passed the referendum as legal and the Spanish government won't sit down and discuss it as they're shitting themselves due to Catalonia contributing around a 5th of Spain's economy.
I'm not 100% clued up but there is absolutely no way anyone can argue or make excuses for what the Spanish have done today, regardless of whether you believe the referendum was right or wrong.
The Constutional Tribunal of Catalunya declared the vote illegal. Really think there are two sides to this story and the Catalan PM chose to put his citizens on the front line
Anyway, our next party will be on tuesday as the pro Independence movement have called 'a general strike to paralyse the country'. The Catalan PM will be up next to evaluate today.
This is a complex problem. Not going to get drawn in to the rights and wrongs of the referendum. What I will say is that if the referendum is illegal so is the actions of the police in beating up and terrorising the Catalonian population. Utter utter disgrace and unforgivable.
The violence will be ignored which is the worse thing about it
Due time it being instigated and co ordinated by the government
Has this been trump telling the police to act on those trying this in the US people would be screaming blue Murder
How the international community react is the key here
I would expect May to be absolutely scathing yet I haven’t really seen it
All leading members should be asking how the Spanish government came to the conclusion that beating and firing rubber rounds in to old men and women, beating your own fire fighters who are defending the civilians live on tv was the right thing to do
Next round announced. The Catalan PM Puigdemont has declared victory and independence will be anmounced in the next couple of days. Zap! Ball back into the court of the Spanush PM. This will get nasty if something doesn't slow it down.
Spain's foreign minister has claimed police violence during Catalonia's illegal independence vote was "not extraordinary".
Sky's Europe Correspondent Mark Stone challenged Alfonso Dastis on tactics used by Spanish security forces as Catalan officials claimed 844 people had been injured across the region.
Stone said he had seen voters pulled out of polling stations by their hair and stamped on by police, while rubber bullets - illegal in Catalonia - were also used to disperse crowds.
Mr Dastis said: "I don't agree with you that this is an extraordinary level of violence.
"You may think people were peacefully exercising their right to vote but the problem is this so-called referendum had been held to be illegal by the constitutional court."
Next few days will be very interesting here, and the Basque region will have been watching closely as well. Podemos have cleverly been hedging their bets as well and could come out well from the fallout and deadlock, with the socialists basically backing the PP position despite calling for more dialogue.
I would encourage people on here to read up on the background and context of this vote if you are interested in what's going on in Spain. It's fascinating stuff and well worth knowing about, especially if you want to avoid the simplistic good/bad, fascist/freedom fighter angles. 'Ghosts of Spain' by Giles Tremlett and Orwell's 'Homage to Catalonia' are both essential reading for anyone wanting to know more about this complex country, which is really a quite disparate group of different regions.
Next round announced. The Catalan PM Puigdemont has declared victory and independence will be anmounced in the next couple of days. Zap! Ball back into the court of the Spanush PM. This will get nasty if something doesn't slow it down.
Sounds like the worst is still yet to come.
Said in the other thread, but it literally blows my mind in a democratic nation a vote for anything can be "illegal". Not legally binding, fine, but illegal? Insane.
The violence will be ignored which is the worse thing about it
Due time it being instigated and co ordinated by the government
Has this been trump telling the police to act on those trying this in the US people would be screaming blue Murder
How the international community react is the key here
I would expect May to be absolutely scathing yet I haven’t really seen it
All leading members should be asking how the Spanish government came to the conclusion that beating and firing rubber rounds in to old men and women, beating your own fire fighters who are defending the civilians live on tv was the right thing to do
Corbyn* has called for an end to violence. As have the SNP and MEP Guy Verhofstadt who is the leader of the Lib Dem group in the European Parliament with around 10% of the MEPs. The Slovenian and Belgian premiers have also commented.
The statement from our foreign office was poor. May has said nothing. Then again nobody is going to listen to her as she is going to be out of a job soon enough!
I would pay attention to what the French and Germans have to say because they must be absolutely livid at this cack handed management. They've had 2% growth across the Eurozone and reducing unemployment, especially in Spain and now this mess! Note that the smaller EU countries will go out to bat first.
As others have posted it is the aftermath from today which will determine how this plays out. Rajoy has been played and his government is at risk now. @CharltonMadrid is in a better place to comment of how coalition politics might play out in their parliament, but I cannot see how Rajoy survives in the medium term. As the whole world can see he has set the security services on the people!
It appears from articles in the mainstream media that the Catalan vote was driven by a mix of middle class centre right politicians and populist leftists. What is certain is that today will not "go back in the bottle".
*Note that Corbyn, Varoufakis and Podemos share a common agenda - question for @CharltonMadrid - are Podemos popular in Catalonia and are they in a position to cut deals?
Fair play to those that have spoken out but none of them hold any serious political power
You’d have expected to have had all the powerhouses speaking up and letting it known to stop and stop immediately instead Spain’s own version or comical Ali has said it’s all good nothing to see move on
Spain are amongst the most likely to veto any Brexit deal that doesn't completely punish the UK. May and the Tories are likely keeping schtum to keep the Spanish onside, as any support for the Catalans from the UK government would torpedo any chance of the Spanish agreeing to a Brexit deal.
Which is exactly why she should speak up we should not be worried about shit like that
She should but she won't. May is single-minded in her quest to save her legacy and the only way she won't go down in history as one of the worst PMs is if she emerges with a deal with the EU. Likewise the rest of her cabinet are too busy trying to sell off as much of the UK to their chums to get involved.
I remember when England games used to have The Union flag flying more than the St George's Cross - did Euro '96 change that?
I've always wondered why, when I watch the highlights of the '66 World Cup final lots of people had Union Jacks as much, if not more, than St George's flags.
What was that all about ?
That debate really doesn't belong on this thread. I'd just say that as a kid in the 50's/60's we were brought up (brainwashed into) believing we were one nation and that was our flag. So much so that it didn't feel odd waving the Union flag in 1966 even though we were competing as England. Seems bizarre now! The rise in Scottish/Welsh nationalism behind their respective national flags started to undermine the English perception of the Union Jack as "our flag" The final nail in the coffin was the deliberate and defiant adoption of the Union Jack by the pro-fascist National Front party who gained popular support amongst lumpen elements in the 70's on an overtly and violently racist agenda. Ordinary people became reluctant to proudly display the flag for fear of association with racist/fascist thugs. Both elements combined to drive the English into reviving the flag of St. George
Worrying isn't it? A European democracy deploying a paramilitary force to suppress protest and dissent through violence against its own citizens. Thing is, it's operating exactly as intended.
The Gardia Civil is part of the Euro Gendarme Force, a multinational paramilitary police force which is able to enter any EU member state, including the UK, at the request of the host government. Although that government has no powers to actually get them to leave once deployed. Its another reason I think we are better off outside the EU. The equipment of a police state is in place, we saw it being used today.
I remember when England games used to have The Union flag flying more than the St George's Cross - did Euro '96 change that?
I've always wondered why, when I watch the highlights of the '66 World Cup final lots of people had Union Jacks as much, if not more, than St George's flags.
What was that all about ?
As a kid growing up in the 60's I wasnt really aware that there was a St Georges flag....I just thought the Union Jack was English......and the St Andrews Cross was Scottish and so on.....
Im pleased that eventually people became more aware (me included) that in fact we had our own flag. I guess its a generational thing....even in the 70's and part of the 80's most English football team supporter flags were the Union jack.
Worrying isn't it? A European democracy deploying a paramilitary force to suppress protest and dissent through violence against its own citizens. Thing is, it's operating exactly as intended.
The Gardia Civil is part of the Euro Gendarme Force, a multinational paramilitary police force which is able to enter any EU member state, including the UK, at the request of the host government. Although that government has no powers to actually get them to leave once deployed. Its another reason I think we are better off outside the EU. The equipment of a police state is in place, we saw it being used today.
In the recent past the British government used live ammunition against its own population in Northern Ireland. Thatcher encouraged the U.K. Police force to use extraordinary levels of violence against striking miners in the eighties.
I find it baffling the way Brexiteers are condemning the EU for not directly intervening in the affairs of Spain when over the last two years those same people have been whinging about how important it is for the UK to leave the EU in order to stop the EU meddling in the UK's affairs.
Comments
I didn't get a vote on Scottish independence ........
Surely a direct comparison.
Scotland sought a vote to leave the UK. It was allowed. The Scottish Nationalists lost.
However in true EU style they'll have another go.
In that case, if it's a direct comparison, I didn't realise that Catalonia was a country in its own right (like England, Wales, Scotland, NI) and was part of the Kingdom of Spain. Thanks for letting me know.
Why don't they have their own international team and why does the country of the UK have four? Maybe they're just behind us a bit?
Do they want to become like somewhere like Andorra?
Treating old Spanish women like football hooligans must be getting the old bill all horny
Fucking scum
I remember when England games used to have The Union flag flying more than the St George's Cross - did Euro '96 change that?
Let's look at the direct violation of human rights, the right to express opinion freely, the right to vote, the physical attacks on innocent men and women invoking their democratic rights.
If I'm correct, The Catalonia ministers passed the referendum as legal and the Spanish government won't sit down and discuss it as they're shitting themselves due to Catalonia contributing around a 5th of Spain's economy.
I'm not 100% clued up but there is absolutely no way anyone can argue or make excuses for what the Spanish have done today, regardless of whether you believe the referendum was right or wrong.
What was that all about ?
Anyway, our next party will be on tuesday as the pro Independence movement have called 'a general strike to paralyse the country'. The Catalan PM will be up next to evaluate today.
Due time it being instigated and co ordinated by the government
Has this been trump telling the police to act on those trying this in the US people would be screaming blue Murder
How the international community react is the key here
I would expect May to be absolutely scathing yet I haven’t really seen it
All leading members should be asking how the Spanish government came to the conclusion that beating and firing rubber rounds in to old men and women, beating your own fire fighters who are defending the civilians live on tv was the right thing to do
Zap! Ball back into the court of the Spanush PM. This will get nasty if something doesn't slow it down.
Sky's Europe Correspondent Mark Stone challenged Alfonso Dastis on tactics used by Spanish security forces as Catalan officials claimed 844 people had been injured across the region.
Stone said he had seen voters pulled out of polling stations by their hair and stamped on by police, while rubber bullets - illegal in Catalonia - were also used to disperse crowds.
Mr Dastis said: "I don't agree with you that this is an extraordinary level of violence.
"You may think people were peacefully exercising their right to vote but the problem is this so-called referendum had been held to be illegal by the constitutional court."
I would encourage people on here to read up on the background and context of this vote if you are interested in what's going on in Spain. It's fascinating stuff and well worth knowing about, especially if you want to avoid the simplistic good/bad, fascist/freedom fighter angles. 'Ghosts of Spain' by Giles Tremlett and Orwell's 'Homage to Catalonia' are both essential reading for anyone wanting to know more about this complex country, which is really a quite disparate group of different regions.
Said in the other thread, but it literally blows my mind in a democratic nation a vote for anything can be "illegal". Not legally binding, fine, but illegal? Insane.
The statement from our foreign office was poor. May has said nothing. Then again nobody is going to listen to her as she is going to be out of a job soon enough!
I would pay attention to what the French and Germans have to say because they must be absolutely livid at this cack handed management. They've had 2% growth across the Eurozone and reducing unemployment, especially in Spain and now this mess! Note that the smaller EU countries will go out to bat first.
As others have posted it is the aftermath from today which will determine how this plays out. Rajoy has been played and his government is at risk now. @CharltonMadrid is in a better place to comment of how coalition politics might play out in their parliament, but I cannot see how Rajoy survives in the medium term. As the whole world can see he has set the security services on the people!
It appears from articles in the mainstream media that the Catalan vote was driven by a mix of middle class centre right politicians and populist leftists. What is certain is that today will not "go back in the bottle".
*Note that Corbyn, Varoufakis and Podemos share a common agenda - question for @CharltonMadrid - are Podemos popular in Catalonia and are they in a position to cut deals?
You’d have expected to have had all the powerhouses speaking up and letting it known to stop and stop immediately instead Spain’s own version or comical Ali has said it’s all good nothing to see move on
I'd just say that as a kid in the 50's/60's we were brought up (brainwashed into) believing we were one nation and that was our flag.
So much so that it didn't feel odd waving the Union flag in 1966 even though we were competing as England.
Seems bizarre now!
The rise in Scottish/Welsh nationalism behind their respective national flags started to undermine the English perception of the Union Jack as "our flag"
The final nail in the coffin was the deliberate and defiant adoption of the Union Jack by the pro-fascist National Front party who gained popular support amongst lumpen elements in the 70's on an overtly and violently racist agenda.
Ordinary people became reluctant to proudly display the flag for fear of association with racist/fascist thugs.
Both elements combined to drive the English into reviving the flag of St. George
The Gardia Civil is part of the Euro Gendarme Force, a multinational paramilitary police force which is able to enter any EU member state, including the UK, at the request of the host government. Although that government has no powers to actually get them to leave once deployed. Its another reason I think we are better off outside the EU. The equipment of a police state is in place, we saw it being used today.
Im pleased that eventually people became more aware (me included) that in fact we had our own flag. I guess its a generational thing....even in the 70's and part of the 80's most English football team supporter flags were the Union jack.
I find it baffling the way Brexiteers are condemning the EU for not directly intervening in the affairs of Spain when over the last two years those same people have been whinging about how important it is for the UK to leave the EU in order to stop the EU meddling in the UK's affairs.