Spain flags everywhere in Madrid today, with loads hanging from balconies. After working so hard to get the country back on track after the economic crisis people don't want to see it torn apart by nationalists.
Looking at what is happening today I now feel the government should have let the vote happen and made the case for national unity. Clearly an independent Catalan state isn't feasible beyond a purely gut level emotional concept and the majority of people in the Catalan region know that. But the government has played this completely wrong and played into the hands of the nationalists who knew what reaction they would get and how it would play out for them. It is a real shame for me that it portrays Spain as a divided country on the brink of civil war when really this is a very vocal minority whose intentions could have been challenged in a much more productive way.
If I may mention some of the seeming political aspects though.
It is argued that many Catalans would have voted to remain Spanish, and what has happened is that their simple democratic right is as trashed as those who seek independence. Why not let a simple referendum happen as an exercise in a form of democracy is what is said, what is the harm in that?
Well I don't know the degree of autonomy in Catalonia, and how that compares with other autonomous regions in Spain and elsewhere (like Scotland for example), but as far as I remember the Catalonian political leader said there would be a Unilateral Declaration of Independence within 48 hours of a yes vote. By that declaration putting the 'democratic' voting process right at the heart of events, and by implication the staging of the vote.
So if the vote had been yes, within 48 hours the people of Catalonia would be governed by people they hadn't democratically elected as a national government just like that. 48 hours.
The implications that spring from that are immense, and the 48 hour threat would ensure the kind of chaos that would make Brexit look like a new Audi sliding off the production line.
Let me say again the police actions are inexcusable, but the actions of those who have dragged Spain to this political crisis, including those who suggested the immediacy of independence are irresponsible too. Part of me still believes that there has been an emotional manipulation of romantic nationalism, or did the Catalonian separatists put some meat on the bones by promising 350 million Euros per week to be spent on Catalonian health services if they split from Spain? Or some other specific practical promises that go beyond a Catalonian version of dreaming about blue passports?
The whole exposition of today's events feel like a game changer, and I worry where this is leading.
Let’s see if jean Claude wanker speaks up and punished the spainish government for its blatant para military assault on Spain’s own citizens
It will be like fifa a fine of around 15k euro and a suspended sentence If anything highlighting the fact that dissenting populist movements must be quashed at source
Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights provides the right to freedom of expression and information, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society". This right includes the freedom to hold opinions, and to receive and impart information and ideas.
Very much this Seth. As far as I've heard, there have been no promises of anything other than freedom from repression and a return to liberty. All played out on a high-tension gut level. There has been little or no communication on what happens on the declaration of independence, but my wife's business has recieved a letter from the town hall that next months taxes need to be paid to Barcelona, not Madrid. So someone thinks we will have a 48 hour transition and immediately seperate. Provocation, and a high order. It's hard to see where some sort of negotiation would even start when the bar has been raised that high.
Completely ignorant on this - can you draw any comparisons here with the Ireland situation?
Understand it doesn't have the "other country ruling" element but is there any religious background etc.?
Snap. Perhaps I just live in an uneducated bunker but I've been largely oblivious to this most of my life. Grateful if someone could provide an impartial summary, or link to somewhere digestible where I could read that
Spain flags everywhere in Madrid today, with loads hanging from balconies. After working so hard to get the country back on track after the economic crisis people don't want to see it torn apart by nationalists.
Looking at what is happening today I now feel the government should have let the vote happen and made the case for national unity. Clearly an independent Catalan state isn't feasible beyond a purely gut level emotional concept and the majority of people in the Catalan region know that. But the government has played this completely wrong and played into the hands of the nationalists who knew what reaction they would get and how it would play out for them. It is a real shame for me that it portrays Spain as a divided country on the brink of civil war when really this is a very vocal minority whose intentions could have been challenged in a much more productive way.
Guardian reporting 465 injured and a few hundred out of 2,000 polling stations closed. Corbyn calling for an end to violence. May is nowhere!
Edit: Corbyn now telling May to get on the blower to Rajoy!
As you state the intervention was very short sighted as there was no upside. All we have now is shocking scenes on global media streams as well as opportunists jumping on the bandwagon.
The Spanish government needs to find a way to reverse out of this and avoid further escalation. End of the day, the referendum is an illegal act of sedition against the constitution and Spanish state. And now it has the potential to become a game changer.
Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights provides the right to freedom of expression and information, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society". This right includes the freedom to hold opinions, and to receive and impart information and ideas.
Looks like Spain no longer abides with this.
Freedom of expression exists. The town I live in is full of flags. Information can be exchanged. But this election breaks Spanish law. It's not an 'expression' of a desire for independence. It's a vote the Generalitat claim they will unilaterally act upon within 48 hours. So not merely expression, and not within the law. Not saying the police actions are correct, but the Catalan independence movement has played this very cleverly, and much as I loathe the ruling Popular Party, they have been caught out. I actually see little or no credit for either side but to claim the Catalans are simply freely expressing themselves is to miss how bad this situation could get, and in rapid time.
Very much this Seth. As far as I've heard, there have been no promises of anything other than freedom from repression and a return to liberty. All played out on a high-tension gut level. There has been little or no communication on what happens on the declaration of independence, but my wife's business has recieved a letter from the town hall that next months taxes need to be paid to Barcelona, not Madrid. So someone thinks we will have a 48 hour transition and immediately seperate. Provocation, and a high order. It's hard to see where some sort of negotiation would even start when the bar has been raised that high.
I wondered how true all this was, but it looks like the 48 hour thing is true after all. Switch where you pay your taxes just like that? The brutal reaction is unforgivable, but it looks as though the separatists have planned for an immediate 'protest fund' via faux taxation. This kind of practical reality is very clever granted, but how on earth is the national government supposed to respond? I don't know personally beyond knowing you don't respond by sending in the national Guard to beat the bejaysus out of people.
Completely ignorant on this - can you draw any comparisons here with the Ireland situation?
Understand it doesn't have the "other country ruling" element but is there any religious background etc.?
Snap. Perhaps I just live in an uneducated bunker but I've been largely oblivious to this most of my life. Grateful if someone could provide an impartial summary, or link to somewhere digestible where I could read that
Will fill you both in at the next CL meeting guys.
Very much this Seth. As far as I've heard, there have been no promises of anything other than freedom from repression and a return to liberty. All played out on a high-tension gut level. There has been little or no communication on what happens on the declaration of independence, but my wife's business has recieved a letter from the town hall that next months taxes need to be paid to Barcelona, not Madrid. So someone thinks we will have a 48 hour transition and immediately seperate. Provocation, and a high order. It's hard to see where some sort of negotiation would even start when the bar has been raised that high.
Completely ignorant on this - can you draw any comparisons here with the Ireland situation?
Understand it doesn't have the "other country ruling" element but is there any religious background etc.?
Snap. Perhaps I just live in an uneducated bunker but I've been largely oblivious to this most of my life. Grateful if someone could provide an impartial summary, or link to somewhere digestible where I could read that
Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights provides the right to freedom of expression and information, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society". This right includes the freedom to hold opinions, and to receive and impart information and ideas.
Looks like Spain no longer abides with this.
Freedom of expression exists. The town I live in is full of flags. Information can be exchanged. But this election breaks Spanish law. It's not an 'expression' of a desire for independence. It's a vote the Generalitat claim they will unilaterally act upon within 48 hours. So not merely expression, and not within the law. Not saying the police actions are correct, but the Catalan independence movement has played this very cleverly, and much as I loathe the ruling Popular Party, they have been caught out. I actually see little or no credit for either side but to claim the Catalans are simply freely expressing themselves is to miss how bad this situation could get, and in rapid time.
I am sure that the Catalan Independence movement is not entirely innocent here.
However, surely those ordinary citizens, young old and disabled, who tried to vote are expressing their wishes?
'The Spanish Civil War' by Anthony Beevor is a good and not too difficult or complicated a read about 20 c Iberian politics and internal wranglings which are still extant to this day .. it all goes back to the 8th century Muslim invasion of course .. if it aint the EU, its Islam to blame ((:>)
Rather than a comparison to Ireland an analogy might be a scenario where London, with different views to the rest of the country and not wanting to pay out money to the poorer regions, wants to go it alone. Sadiq Khan and the Labour members of the London Assembly call a 'referendum' which the Conservative and other assembly members as well as the national government point out has no valid basis as well as being only done to stoke up fringe separatist followers. Despite being warned it was against the law to do so, as it was essentially instigating a coup, the independence movement set up and run an election which the government then tries to prevent.
Not an exact analogy, but probably more helpful than trying to understand it on ethnic/religious lines like Ireland.
As I've said, the government and police response has been dreadful but this is all the result of some cleverly provocative gameplaying by the CiU and CUP who will be delighted with the disorder and how this is being seen.
Rather than a comparison to Ireland an analogy might be a scenario where London, with different views to the rest of the country and not wanting to pay out money to the poorer regions, wants to go it alone. Sadiq Khan and the Labour members of the London Assembly call a 'referendum' which the Conservative and other assembly members as well as the national government point out has no valid basis as well as being only done to stoke up fringe separatist followers. Despite being warned it was against the law to do so, as was essentially instigating a coup, the independence movement set up and run an election which the government then tries to prevent.
Not an exact analogy, but probably more helpful than trying to understand it on ethnic/religious lines like Ireland.
As I've said, the government and police response has been dreadful but this is all the result of some cleverly provocative gameplaying by the CiU and CUP who will be delighted with the disorder and how this is being seen.
Not really the same, as London isn't a separate nationality with its own language
I don't agree with the independence movement's tactics, but The actions of the Spanish authorities have been more fitting of a banana republic, when you contrast with the independence referendums for Scotland and Slovakia.
Rather than a comparison to Ireland an analogy might be a scenario where London, with different views to the rest of the country and not wanting to pay out money to the poorer regions, wants to go it alone. Sadiq Khan and the Labour members of the London Assembly call a 'referendum' which the Conservative and other assembly members as well as the national government point out has no valid basis as well as being only done to stoke up fringe separatist followers. Despite being warned it was against the law to do so, as was essentially instigating a coup, the independence movement set up and run an election which the government then tries to prevent.
Not an exact analogy, but probably more helpful than trying to understand it on ethnic/religious lines like Ireland.
As I've said, the government and police response has been dreadful but this is all the result of some cleverly provocative gameplaying by the CiU and CUP who will be delighted with the disorder and how this is being seen.
Not really the same, as London isn't a separate nationality with its own language
I don't agree with the independence movement's tactics, but The actions of the Spanish authorities have been more fitting of a banana republic, when you contrast with the independence referendums for Scotland and Slovakia.
in Spain the spirit of Franco lives on .. just as the spirits of Napoleon and Bismark remain alive and well within the French and German body politic
If it's about having a separate nationality and language, why is there no real nationalist movement to speak of in Galicia, which also has its own identity, culture and language? The Catalan independence movement is more about saving money than anything else, which of course is fair enough but I wish they'd be honest about it. Read some interesting figures about separatist feelings going up in direct correlation with earnings: it's very much a middle and middle-upper class movement but it seems to get played out as some sort of great working class struggle.
If it's about having a separate nationality and language, why is there no real nationalist movement to speak of in Galicia, which also has its own identity, culture and language? The Catalan independence is more about saving money than anything else, which of course is fair enough but I wish they'd be honest about it. Read some interesting figures about separatist feelings going up in direct correlation with earnings: it's very much a middle and middle-upper class movement but it seems to get played out as some sort of great working class struggle.
I presume that you live in Spain and therefore know a lot more about the contemporary situation than me .. however, I had a conversation (admittedly about 5 years) ago with a group of Galicians who longed for 'independence'. Admittedly they did say that Madrid kept a very hands off approach to Galicia. Perhaps there is more of a cultural/historical problem between the Castillians and the Catalans
Apparently, even Katie Hopkins was appalled at this tweet from Sky. Shocking from Murdoch's muck-rakers, but not really a surprise. His mate in the White House would probably approve.
I have relatives in various parts of Spain. I've deliberately kept out of this thread because CM and KS are far better able to articulate what's really going on than I might be. The rest of us would do well to realise that this has precisely fuck all to do with any real surge in a sense of 'independence' from regular Catalans - the youth are being played by a bunch of old men who don't want to support the poorer regions of Spain. Most people in Catalunya don't really want independence - sure they'd like to not pay as much in tax to regions where the economy has been devastated by the credit crunch and never really recovered, but the region has had huge investment in it from Madrid as well. A lot of crooked people have a vested interest in stirring up disquiet - which is exactly what's happened. Rajoy is an imbecile who has pretty much handled this as badly as it possibly could have been. Spain isn't on the brink of civil war - but this isn't going away any time soon, and for the incumbent government to have fucked it up this badly is unforgiveable.
Disgraceful behaviour from the Spanish State. My sympathies are with those who wanted to vote but couldn't because the State saw fit to hurt them and spray them with noxious chemicals.
Disgraceful behaviour from the Spanish State. My sympathies are with those who wanted to vote but couldn't because the State saw fit to hurt them and spray them with noxious chemicals.
But not with the 35 million other Spaniards who didn't get a vote on it?
Comments
Looking at what is happening today I now feel the government should have let the vote happen and made the case for national unity. Clearly an independent Catalan state isn't feasible beyond a purely gut level emotional concept and the majority of people in the Catalan region know that. But the government has played this completely wrong and played into the hands of the nationalists who knew what reaction they would get and how it would play out for them. It is a real shame for me that it portrays Spain as a divided country on the brink of civil war when really this is a very vocal minority whose intentions could have been challenged in a much more productive way.
Absolutely inexcusable.
If I may mention some of the seeming political aspects though.
It is argued that many Catalans would have voted to remain Spanish, and what has happened is that their simple democratic right is as trashed as those who seek independence. Why not let a simple referendum happen as an exercise in a form of democracy is what is said, what is the harm in that?
Well I don't know the degree of autonomy in Catalonia, and how that compares with other autonomous regions in Spain and elsewhere (like Scotland for example), but as far as I remember the Catalonian political leader said there would be a Unilateral Declaration of Independence within 48 hours of a yes vote. By that declaration putting the 'democratic' voting process right at the heart of events, and by implication the staging of the vote.
So if the vote had been yes, within 48 hours the people of Catalonia would be governed by people they hadn't democratically elected as a national government just like that. 48 hours.
The implications that spring from that are immense, and the 48 hour threat would ensure the kind of chaos that would make Brexit look like a new Audi sliding off the production line.
Let me say again the police actions are inexcusable, but the actions of those who have dragged Spain to this political crisis, including those who suggested the immediacy of independence are irresponsible too. Part of me still believes that there has been an emotional manipulation of romantic nationalism, or did the Catalonian separatists put some meat on the bones by promising 350 million Euros per week to be spent on Catalonian health services if they split from Spain? Or some other specific practical promises that go beyond a Catalonian version of dreaming about blue passports?
The whole exposition of today's events feel like a game changer, and I worry where this is leading.
Understand it doesn't have the "other country ruling" element but is there any religious background etc.?
It will be like fifa a fine of around 15k euro and a suspended sentence If anything highlighting the fact that dissenting populist movements must be quashed at source
Looks like Spain no longer abides with this.
Edit: Corbyn now telling May to get on the blower to Rajoy!
As you state the intervention was very short sighted as there was no upside. All we have now is shocking scenes on global media streams as well as opportunists jumping on the bandwagon.
The Spanish government needs to find a way to reverse out of this and avoid further escalation. End of the day, the referendum is an illegal act of sedition against the constitution and Spanish state. And now it has the potential to become a game changer.
Not saying the police actions are correct, but the Catalan independence movement has played this very cleverly, and much as I loathe the ruling Popular Party, they have been caught out. I actually see little or no credit for either side but to claim the Catalans are simply freely expressing themselves is to miss how bad this situation could get, and in rapid time.
Switch where you pay your taxes just like that?
The brutal reaction is unforgivable, but it looks as though the separatists have planned for an immediate 'protest fund' via faux taxation.
This kind of practical reality is very clever granted, but how on earth is the national government supposed to respond?
I don't know personally beyond knowing you don't respond by sending in the national Guard to beat the bejaysus out of people.
However, surely those ordinary citizens, young old and disabled, who tried to vote are expressing their wishes?
Not an exact analogy, but probably more helpful than trying to understand it on ethnic/religious lines like Ireland.
As I've said, the government and police response has been dreadful but this is all the result of some cleverly provocative gameplaying by the CiU and CUP who will be delighted with the disorder and how this is being seen.
I don't agree with the independence movement's tactics, but The actions of the Spanish authorities have been more fitting of a banana republic, when you contrast with the independence referendums for Scotland and Slovakia.
Am I right in saying the away team only gets a couple of thousand tickets for these games?
Not quite as simple as people think, really