The legacy of the Spanish civil war hangs over this issue, where the Catalans were essentially on the losing side against Franco's Fascists. I understand where regional yearning might spring from, but feel sad that Catalonia feel the need to respond by reviving their own faux fascist/spirit. The late Jo Cox said in her maiden speech in Parliament said that there is more that unites us than divides us, but she was murdered by a Fascist.
Good luck to them, whatever the majority wants should happen.
The majority of Catalan, or Spain? If you're going to break up a country, everyone in it should have a say, IMO.
in this case i agree. if the Catalonians were being treated unfairly by their Madrid 'masters' then an overall vote across the whole of Spain might not be such a good idea as the minority who are most affected would not get there voice heard.
If areas of Catalonia/Catalunya want to be independent from Spain perhaps they could join Andorra, which is already has Catalan as its official language.
Saw a Catalan 'national' team play a (non FIFA recognised) game against Argentina at the Camp Nou a few years ago. Fantastic game and fantastic atmosphere. I look forward to them playing a Yorkshire XI same venue soon...
Unsurprising that the Spanish government don't want to recognise the democratically expressed will of the people to be governed how they seem fit given that they're still claiming Gibraltar.
Unsurprising that the Spanish government don't want to recognise the democratically expressed will of the people to be governed how they seem fit given that they're still claiming Gibraltar.
That's because they are hypocrites.
They seem to conveniently forget Melilla and Ceuta in Morocco, or Llivia in France
I wonder if some of the people say yes to this, would be saying the same thing if it was Northern Ireland.
If the people of Northern Ireland (or Scotland, Wales or England) held a referendum and voted for independence or some other constitutional arrangement I don't think anyone would deny them. I also don't think if the people of one of those countries wanted a referendum that the UK government would behave in the way that the Spanish are, in fact we know for a fact that they wouldn't.
Unsurprising that the Spanish government don't want to recognise the democratically expressed will of the people to be governed how they seem fit given that they're still claiming Gibraltar.
That's because they are hypocrites.
They seem to conveniently forget Melilla and Ceuta in Morocco, or Llivia in France
The main problem is that since this is not a real vote, most people won't vote as they don't recognise the legitimacy of it. It will virtually only be pro-Yes voters casting a vote so the 'result' is a foregone conclusion but pretty meaninglessness.
I don't understand this nationalism growing everywhere. I am all in favour of cultural differences and variety, and a glorious pride in one's culture, but when those differences are hi-jacked into a political cause I find it quite disturbing. As a Londoner I probably have more understanding and empathy for a Berliner, or residents of Shanghai or Glasgow than things I have in common with a farming community in Kent.
I wonder if some of the people say yes to this, would be saying the same thing if it was Northern Ireland.
If the people of Northern Ireland (or Scotland, Wales or England) held a referendum and voted for independence or some other constitutional arrangement I don't think anyone would deny them. I also don't think if the people of one of those countries wanted a referendum that the UK government would behave in the way that the Spanish are, in fact we know for a fact that they wouldn't.
If this did happen, I wonder how the people who lost the vote would react?
I wonder if some of the people say yes to this, would be saying the same thing if it was Northern Ireland.
If the people of Northern Ireland (or Scotland, Wales or England) held a referendum and voted for independence or some other constitutional arrangement I don't think anyone would deny them. I also don't think if the people of one of those countries wanted a referendum that the UK government would behave in the way that the Spanish are, in fact we know for a fact that they wouldn't.
If this did happen, I wonder how the people who lost the vote would react?
I'm sure they would reluctantly accept the result and quickly move on!
I wonder if some of the people say yes to this, would be saying the same thing if it was Northern Ireland.
If the people of Northern Ireland (or Scotland, Wales or England) held a referendum and voted for independence or some other constitutional arrangement I don't think anyone would deny them. I also don't think if the people of one of those countries wanted a referendum that the UK government would behave in the way that the Spanish are, in fact we know for a fact that they wouldn't.
Not sure if that's the case, with May into the DUP for £2bm.
I wonder if some of the people say yes to this, would be saying the same thing if it was Northern Ireland.
If the people of Northern Ireland (or Scotland, Wales or England) held a referendum and voted for independence or some other constitutional arrangement I don't think anyone would deny them. I also don't think if the people of one of those countries wanted a referendum that the UK government would behave in the way that the Spanish are, in fact we know for a fact that they wouldn't.
Key`phrase being constitutional. The Spanish constitution was set up giving the Catalans a large degree of autonomy. but not to break away. The vote has been declared ilegal by the Spanisg contitutional court (not really a suprise but lets follow the law here) and the last few times the thing was measured, the Catalan Independence movement had less than those who wanted to stay (around 47% against 43% but don't quote me). Gibraltar did one about twelve years ago which infuriated the Spanish, in which 98% said they wanted to remain part of the UK and not join Spain. Scotland held a referéndum which was agreed by all the major parties so not quite the same thing, But tere is another point from the Spanish side which is that Catalunya is a net contributor to Spain, unlike poorer regions like Andalusia and Galicia who get hand outs. I can't see another european country letting a prosperous región declare Independence and waltz off on the back of a fairly ridiculous vote. And to underscore that, my wife was born here and owns a business and house, but hasn't been advised of where she can vote, No quorum, no electoral census, no campaigning but a lot of fiery rhetoric from the pro Independence brigade. You can't posible vote away like that, but the Catalans intend to do just that (and they are not a 'Catalan bloc', it's a noisy half who are trying to tip themselves into Independence and drag everyone else with them. Not very democratic).
I saw someone ask if the Catalans have been treated unfairly. They have their own language, and as the constitution gives the right of anyone doing anything here to be atended in the Catalan language, it means a lot of Jobs demand fluent Catalan. My two daughters are at scholl. The language of the classroom is Catalan, They are taught two foreign languages (under 12 years old), 8 hours of English a week and 4 hours of Spanish. They used to recieve some clases like science in English but that changed as the school felt they didn't need such a high level of vocabulary in such specific subjects. There is a Catalan government, the Generalitat, and a Catalan pólice forcé, The Mossos, who will possibly join all the other pólice we have here, the Guardia Civil, Policia Local and Policia National, to control events tomorrow, though the Mossos have expressed concern that any intervention may provoke trouble. The Catalans pay an awfull lot of taxesto Madrid, to Barcelona and in my wifes case for her business, in VAT. That is a huge issue which Madrid and Spain generally don't wish to discuss. Corruption in politics is another thing that annoys here, as the ruling Popular party have been caught embezzling money over and over again at both national and local level. But then again, the ex catalán president Jordi Pujol is currently in jail with his son, and hopefully his wife, as his political career here involved singing the catalán anthem while transferrring as much money as posible out of the government control and into Andorra. That often gets forgotten
Personally I don't see what the Catalans hope to achieve with this. Their biggest trading partner is Spain, so sticking two fingers up to the new neighbours will be costly, and the will automatically fall out of the EU so they will have to apply to re-enter. If they do, I asume being small, they will expect hand outs, which is a bit rich considering they want to leave Spain precisely to avoid that. Most of what is happening could be resolved by talking, but to get there we are going to have to go through a messy stand off, not helped by the likes of the CUP party, who have declared there can be no negotiation, only escape.We even had Alex Salmond on catalán TV this morning appealing against repression in his ongoing struggle to reduce humanity to a group of villagers living in hill forts and trading losely with neighbouring villagers but acknowleging no overlord. I may be back in south east London sooner than I planned.
Terrible scenes here now and shameful picture of Spain in the world's eyes. The government and security response to this has predictably played into the hands of the agitators, who represent about 30 - 40% of Catalans' views but now look to have the moral high ground. Spectacular own goal by the PP (supported by the PSOE and Ciudadanos) and the Guardia Civil.
Disappointing but not surprising that the other thread on this incredibly complex issue has been hijacked by half understood (or deliberately misunderstood?) connections to the EU, Junker and Spanish history. There is plenty of material out there for anyone prepared to try to understand Spanish history; it seems to be being predictably reduced to cliches in order to further a domestic agenda.
Perhaps this thread can be resurrected for those of us with more than just a passing interest in these events?
My son drew comparisons between this and the Kurdish referendum - The Iraqi's let the Kurds go ahead and just ignored them, the Spanish have only intensified the situation with their over the top actions.
I don't see anyone coming out of this with much credit, but the independetistas have scored a visual win. Today was only about provocation. Only the yes vote are out (and in big numbers) but the reaction is heavy handed, apart from the Mossos, who are refusing to act. The fallout begins tomorrow, as I'm sure everone will declare they have won, and the Independence group are going to call for strikes and protest. At some point, these clowns will all have to sit down and talk, but it'll probably need a few dead protestors to make that happen, and the bad blood will drag on for years.
Initiating a proper debate instead of shutting it down would have brought most neutrals to the constitution side. Now many who saw the separatists as a motley crew of nationalist anarchists combined with Artur Mas' dodgy CiU will sympathise with them.
It does seem that Madrid has gone out of its way to aggravate the situation. Rather than making a case as to why Catalonia is stronger as part of Spain, they seem to be focused purely on the legality of the referendum. Passing the buck to the judiciary and the police was always going to end up like this, and wil, at least in the short term, push more people into the leave camp.
I realize the part of the concern would be that the Basques would want their own referendum if this occurred, and it would, at least logically, put an end to any claim on Gibraltar, as they overwhelmingly voted to stay British.
The lack of political will to address this has just opened it up to opportunists on the other side.
Comments
The late Jo Cox said in her maiden speech in Parliament said that there is more that unites us than divides us, but she was murdered by a Fascist.
(not a bad idea actually)
They seem to conveniently forget Melilla and Ceuta in Morocco, or Llivia in France
As a Londoner I probably have more understanding and empathy for a Berliner, or residents of Shanghai or Glasgow than things I have in common with a farming community in Kent.
I saw someone ask if the Catalans have been treated unfairly. They have their own language, and as the constitution gives the right of anyone doing anything here to be atended in the Catalan language, it means a lot of Jobs demand fluent Catalan. My two daughters are at scholl. The language of the classroom is Catalan, They are taught two foreign languages (under 12 years old), 8 hours of English a week and 4 hours of Spanish. They used to recieve some clases like science in English but that changed as the school felt they didn't need such a high level of vocabulary in such specific subjects. There is a Catalan government, the Generalitat, and a Catalan pólice forcé, The Mossos, who will possibly join all the other pólice we have here, the Guardia Civil, Policia Local and Policia National, to control events tomorrow, though the Mossos have expressed concern that any intervention may provoke trouble. The Catalans pay an awfull lot of taxesto Madrid, to Barcelona and in my wifes case for her business, in VAT. That is a huge issue which Madrid and Spain generally don't wish to discuss. Corruption in politics is another thing that annoys here, as the ruling Popular party have been caught embezzling money over and over again at both national and local level. But then again, the ex catalán president Jordi Pujol is currently in jail with his son, and hopefully his wife, as his political career here involved singing the catalán anthem while transferrring as much money as posible out of the government control and into Andorra. That often gets forgotten
Personally I don't see what the Catalans hope to achieve with this. Their biggest trading partner is Spain, so sticking two fingers up to the new neighbours will be costly, and the will automatically fall out of the EU so they will have to apply to re-enter. If they do, I asume being small, they will expect hand outs, which is a bit rich considering they want to leave Spain precisely to avoid that. Most of what is happening could be resolved by talking, but to get there we are going to have to go through a messy stand off, not helped by the likes of the CUP party, who have declared there can be no negotiation, only escape.We even had Alex Salmond on catalán TV this morning appealing against repression in his ongoing struggle to reduce humanity to a group of villagers living in hill forts and trading losely with neighbouring villagers but acknowleging no overlord. I may be back in south east London sooner than I planned.
Disappointing but not surprising that the other thread on this incredibly complex issue has been hijacked by half understood (or deliberately misunderstood?) connections to the EU, Junker and Spanish history. There is plenty of material out there for anyone prepared to try to understand Spanish history; it seems to be being predictably reduced to cliches in order to further a domestic agenda.
Perhaps this thread can be resurrected for those of us with more than just a passing interest in these events?
The Police brutality scenes shown on the BBC News site I found shocking.
I realize the part of the concern would be that the Basques would want their own referendum if this occurred, and it would, at least logically, put an end to any claim on Gibraltar, as they overwhelmingly voted to stay British.
The lack of political will to address this has just opened it up to opportunists on the other side.