I understand the sentiment and the frustration, but I don’t think these tweets help. I know there are some very narrow minded views out there, but this just polarises it more and perpetuates the generalisation
Nah I posted them. It's done now, no need for a debate. If people don't like it they should get over it or they're snowflakes. :-)
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
The medical and banking agencies going (despite Brexit Bulldog saying they wouldn't), we've lost our seat at the International Court of Justice (symptomatic of Brexit rather than because of it I would suggest) and today warnings about the effect of Brexit on the aerospace industry http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42065836 - these are not zero hour contract minimum wage jobs! Now the DUP are telling Dublin to back off - we know that's all going to end well.
Add to that Davies saying that contingency planning should be read as preparing for no deal.
What the f*ck are we doing to ourselves. We risk being seen (if not already) as some tin-pot low tax offshore haven with zero credibility or influence on the world stage - looking back with doe-eyes at the age of empire.
We had a seat at the top table - one of the biggest players in the EU, we actually had control over the so-called lazy benefit cheats flooding in from eastern Europe. We have pretty much full employment but the vacancies are going to go through the roof - still lots of job losses likely so one balances the other. We had the veto on any treaty change, Maggie's rebate, we were outside the euro zone, not part of the Greek rescue, and full unhindered access to the biggest market place in the world. We control our borders (outside of Schengen) and our fiscal policies.
Yes we were duty bound to accept ECJ rulings - but how many of those were 'bad law'? We seem fixated with the ECJ taking away our sovereignty - are we also going to withdraw from NATO and the UN?
Sorry for the rant but I'm getting more and more angry at what we have done to ourselves.
Interesting that here and on Twitter Remainers are whipping themselves into a froth today.
Any connection to the Merkel crisis revealing how close the EU project is to going off the rails again?
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
See, while I am sure that this group are prime AfD constituency, even the AfD do not stand on a Leave EU platform, do they ?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
The medical and banking agencies going (despite Brexit Bulldog saying they wouldn't), we've lost our seat at the International Court of Justice (symptomatic of Brexit rather than because of it I would suggest) and today warnings about the effect of Brexit on the aerospace industry http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42065836 - these are not zero hour contract minimum wage jobs! Now the DUP are telling Dublin to back off - we know that's all going to end well.
Add to that Davies saying that contingency planning should be read as preparing for no deal.
What the f*ck are we doing to ourselves. We risk being seen (if not already) as some tin-pot low tax offshore haven with zero credibility or influence on the world stage - looking back with doe-eyes at the age of empire.
We had a seat at the top table - one of the biggest players in the EU, we actually had control over the so-called lazy benefit cheats flooding in from eastern Europe. We have pretty much full employment but the vacancies are going to go through the roof - still lots of job losses likely so one balances the other. We had the veto on any treaty change, Maggie's rebate, we were outside the euro zone, not part of the Greek rescue, and full unhindered access to the biggest market place in the world. We control our borders (outside of Schengen) and our fiscal policies.
Yes we were duty bound to accept ECJ rulings - but how many of those were 'bad law'? We seem fixated with the ECJ taking away our sovereignty - are we also going to withdraw from NATO and the UN?
Sorry for the rant but I'm getting more and more angry at what we have done to ourselves.
Interesting that here and on Twitter Remainers are whipping themselves into a froth today.
Any connection to the Merkel crisis revealing how close the EU project is to going off the rails again?
Not for me - I don't see the EU project having anything to do with it - whatever the EU project means. Purely hitting home day by day how much of a shit shower we have inflicted on ourselves and yesterday's announcement of the medical and financial agencies moving out of the UK hit a raw nerve. That and the incompetent fuckwits who are supposed to be negotiating damage limitation on our behalf.
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
See, while I am sure that this group are prime AfD constituency, even the AfD do not stand on a Leave EU platform, do they ?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
No I cannot refer to any polls not, for a change, can I provide any proof.
This is purely anecdotal based on the fact that l lived and worked there for a long time and still regularly visit.
You have to either believe me or not. To be honest, I don’t mind ... I know I am not lying.
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
See, while I am sure that this group are prime AfD constituency, even the AfD do not stand on a Leave EU platform, do they ?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
No I cannot refer to any polls not, for a change, can I provide any proof.
This is purely anecdotal based on the fact that l lived and worked there for a long time and still regularly visit.
You have to either believe me or not. To be honest, I don’t mind ... I know I am not lying.
I know you are not lying too. I have never met a single German who would dream of his her country leaving the EU, but at the same time I realise that the Germans I meet are from a certain background. I expect they are called the German equiv of 'liberal metropolitan elite", in small town Saxony. But research is your friend over anecdotal encounters, even if that too has to be interrogated carefully. See the ONS 'migration' data a few days back.
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
See, while I am sure that this group are prime AfD constituency, even the AfD do not stand on a Leave EU platform, do they ?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
No I cannot refer to any polls not, for a change, can I provide any proof.
This is purely anecdotal based on the fact that l lived and worked there for a long time and still regularly visit.
You have to either believe me or not. To be honest, I don’t mind ... I know I am not lying.
I do recall seeing a poll once upon a time, think it was related to having a referendum and the EU not so much as support for leaving. I'll do my very best Googling later to try and find it for your viewing pleasure if interested Prague. As I say though, I do not believe it was a "50% of the population wants to leave the EU though", more of a "50% of the population want a referendum and such and such about the EU must change".
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
See, while I am sure that this group are prime AfD constituency, even the AfD do not stand on a Leave EU platform, do they ?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
No I cannot refer to any polls not, for a change, can I provide any proof.
This is purely anecdotal based on the fact that l lived and worked there for a long time and still regularly visit.
You have to either believe me or not. To be honest, I don’t mind ... I know I am not lying.
I know you are not lying too. I have never met a single German who would dream of his her country leaving the EU, but at the same time I realise that the Germans I meet are from a certain background. I expect they are called the German equiv of 'liberal metropolitan elite", in small town Saxony. But research is your friend over anecdotal encounters, even if that too has to be interrogated carefully. See the ONS 'migration' data a few days back.
You admit you do not meet Germans of the background I mentioned - which I do - yet you still decry my comments.
It is anecdotal over the last few years. Perhaps they are lying to me just to make me feel good about Brexit?
Think I’ll leave it there ... pointless getting into an argument about my personal conversations with people in Germany. I know what I said and I know what they said ... obviously I should have taped the conversations so I could retain proof
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
See, while I am sure that this group are prime AfD constituency, even the AfD do not stand on a Leave EU platform, do they ?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
No I cannot refer to any polls not, for a change, can I provide any proof.
This is purely anecdotal based on the fact that l lived and worked there for a long time and still regularly visit.
You have to either believe me or not. To be honest, I don’t mind ... I know I am not lying.
I know you are not lying too. I have never met a single German who would dream of his her country leaving the EU, but at the same time I realise that the Germans I meet are from a certain background. I expect they are called the German equiv of 'liberal metropolitan elite", in small town Saxony. But research is your friend over anecdotal encounters, even if that too has to be interrogated carefully. See the ONS 'migration' data a few days back.
You admit you do not meet Germans of the background I mentioned - which I do - yet you still decry my comments.
It is anecdotal over the last few years. Perhaps they are lying to me just to make me feel good about Brexit?
Think I’ll leave it there ... pointless getting into an argument about my personal conversations with people in Germany. I know what I said and I know what they said ... obviously I should have taped the conversations so I could retain proof
Jesus, man, why so touchy? I am not decrying your comments. I simply point out that neither of us will have anything like as good a handle on what the mass of Germans think, as properly executed political research. That goes for my sample, as much as yours.
I suppose its the years of working for companies and ad agencies who made decisions based on results from research into what the target customers think, as opposed to the personal preference of the marketing director (or, quite often his wife, or mistress), that makes me wary of 'anecdotal' evidence. How tedious of me.
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
See, while I am sure that this group are prime AfD constituency, even the AfD do not stand on a Leave EU platform, do they ?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
No I cannot refer to any polls not, for a change, can I provide any proof.
This is purely anecdotal based on the fact that l lived and worked there for a long time and still regularly visit.
You have to either believe me or not. To be honest, I don’t mind ... I know I am not lying.
I know you are not lying too. I have never met a single German who would dream of his her country leaving the EU, but at the same time I realise that the Germans I meet are from a certain background. I expect they are called the German equiv of 'liberal metropolitan elite", in small town Saxony. But research is your friend over anecdotal encounters, even if that too has to be interrogated carefully. See the ONS 'migration' data a few days back.
You admit you do not meet Germans of the background I mentioned - which I do - yet you still decry my comments.
It is anecdotal over the last few years. Perhaps they are lying to me just to make me feel good about Brexit?
Think I’ll leave it there ... pointless getting into an argument about my personal conversations with people in Germany. I know what I said and I know what they said ... obviously I should have taped the conversations so I could retain proof
Jesus, man, why so touchy? I am not decrying your comments. I simply point out that neither of us will have anything like as good a handle on what the mass of Germans think, as properly executed political research. That goes for my sample, as much as yours.
I suppose its the years of working for companies and ad agencies who made decisions based on results from research into what the target customers think, as opposed to the person preference of the marketing director (or, quite often his wife, or mistress), that makes me wary of 'anecdotal' evidence. How tedious of me.
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
See, while I am sure that this group are prime AfD constituency, even the AfD do not stand on a Leave EU platform, do they ?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
No I cannot refer to any polls not, for a change, can I provide any proof.
This is purely anecdotal based on the fact that l lived and worked there for a long time and still regularly visit.
You have to either believe me or not. To be honest, I don’t mind ... I know I am not lying.
I do recall seeing a poll once upon a time, think it was related to having a referendum and the EU not so much as support for leaving. I'll do my very best Googling later to try and find it for your viewing pleasure if interested Prague. As I say though, I do not believe it was a "50% of the population wants to leave the EU though", more of a "50% of the population want a referendum and such and such about the EU must change".
Why not, although it looks like there will be a plethora of new polls coming out of Germany in the coming weeks so why don't we keep an eye out for them.
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
See, while I am sure that this group are prime AfD constituency, even the AfD do not stand on a Leave EU platform, do they ?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
No I cannot refer to any polls not, for a change, can I provide any proof.
This is purely anecdotal based on the fact that l lived and worked there for a long time and still regularly visit.
You have to either believe me or not. To be honest, I don’t mind ... I know I am not lying.
I know you are not lying too. I have never met a single German who would dream of his her country leaving the EU, but at the same time I realise that the Germans I meet are from a certain background. I expect they are called the German equiv of 'liberal metropolitan elite", in small town Saxony. But research is your friend over anecdotal encounters, even if that too has to be interrogated carefully. See the ONS 'migration' data a few days back.
You admit you do not meet Germans of the background I mentioned - which I do - yet you still decry my comments.
It is anecdotal over the last few years. Perhaps they are lying to me just to make me feel good about Brexit?
Think I’ll leave it there ... pointless getting into an argument about my personal conversations with people in Germany. I know what I said and I know what they said ... obviously I should have taped the conversations so I could retain proof
Jesus, man, why so touchy? I am not decrying your comments. I simply point out that neither of us will have anything like as good a handle on what the mass of Germans think, as properly executed political research. That goes for my sample, as much as yours.
I suppose its the years of working for companies and ad agencies who made decisions based on results from research into what the target customers think, as opposed to the person preference of the marketing director (or, quite often his wife, or mistress), that makes me wary of 'anecdotal' evidence. How tedious of me.
Touchy? Did you not see the winky face?
Dear oh dear.
FWIW, I saw it, and thought it referred only to your final sentence. First sentence reads pretty damn touchy to me, since I made a point of underlining that I would not -ever - suspect you of lying.
Professional research beats anecdotal observation, even if polling is not infallible by any means. Can we agree on that?
Despite the "slight" geographical blunder, his figures tally with what I've experienced after spending a fair chunk of time in Frankfurt this year.
Although, maybe I'd add a fourth group into the mix (obviously not a third each now before any smart arses that like to twist words jump in) which is those that are excited about the potential influx of businesses to the area. They were convinced the EBA was going their way though, so not a great start.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the last 30 years working in Germany. Your analysis of four groups is valid but it is worth breaking it down further.
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
See, while I am sure that this group are prime AfD constituency, even the AfD do not stand on a Leave EU platform, do they ?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
No I cannot refer to any polls not, for a change, can I provide any proof.
This is purely anecdotal based on the fact that l lived and worked there for a long time and still regularly visit.
You have to either believe me or not. To be honest, I don’t mind ... I know I am not lying.
I know you are not lying too. I have never met a single German who would dream of his her country leaving the EU, but at the same time I realise that the Germans I meet are from a certain background. I expect they are called the German equiv of 'liberal metropolitan elite", in small town Saxony. But research is your friend over anecdotal encounters, even if that too has to be interrogated carefully. See the ONS 'migration' data a few days back.
You admit you do not meet Germans of the background I mentioned - which I do - yet you still decry my comments.
It is anecdotal over the last few years. Perhaps they are lying to me just to make me feel good about Brexit?
Think I’ll leave it there ... pointless getting into an argument about my personal conversations with people in Germany. I know what I said and I know what they said ... obviously I should have taped the conversations so I could retain proof
Jesus, man, why so touchy? I am not decrying your comments. I simply point out that neither of us will have anything like as good a handle on what the mass of Germans think, as properly executed political research. That goes for my sample, as much as yours.
I suppose its the years of working for companies and ad agencies who made decisions based on results from research into what the target customers think, as opposed to the person preference of the marketing director (or, quite often his wife, or mistress), that makes me wary of 'anecdotal' evidence. How tedious of me.
Touchy? Did you not see the winky face?
Dear oh dear.
FWIW, I saw it, and thought it referred only to your final sentence. First sentence reads pretty damn touchy to me, since I made a point of underlining that I would not -ever - suspect you of lying.
Professional research beats anecdotal observation, even if polling is not infallible by any means. Can we agree on that?
Of course it is ...which is exactly why I pointed out it was anecdotal in the first place.
I’m surprised we even had to have a ‘discussion’ about it!
The medical and banking agencies going (despite Brexit Bulldog saying they wouldn't), we've lost our seat at the International Court of Justice (symptomatic of Brexit rather than because of it I would suggest) and today warnings about the effect of Brexit on the aerospace industry http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42065836 - these are not zero hour contract minimum wage jobs! Now the DUP are telling Dublin to back off - we know that's all going to end well.
Add to that Davies saying that contingency planning should be read as preparing for no deal.
What the f*ck are we doing to ourselves. We risk being seen (if not already) as some tin-pot low tax offshore haven with zero credibility or influence on the world stage - looking back with doe-eyes at the age of empire.
We had a seat at the top table - one of the biggest players in the EU, we actually had control over the so-called lazy benefit cheats flooding in from eastern Europe. We have pretty much full employment but the vacancies are going to go through the roof - still lots of job losses likely so one balances the other. We had the veto on any treaty change, Maggie's rebate, we were outside the euro zone, not part of the Greek rescue, and full unhindered access to the biggest market place in the world. We control our borders (outside of Schengen) and our fiscal policies.
Yes we were duty bound to accept ECJ rulings - but how many of those were 'bad law'? We seem fixated with the ECJ taking away our sovereignty - are we also going to withdraw from NATO and the UN?
Sorry for the rant but I'm getting more and more angry at what we have done to ourselves.
Brexit- The biggest act of self harm ever inflicted on a nation by its people.
The medical and banking agencies going (despite Brexit Bulldog saying they wouldn't), we've lost our seat at the International Court of Justice (symptomatic of Brexit rather than because of it I would suggest) and today warnings about the effect of Brexit on the aerospace industry http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42065836 - these are not zero hour contract minimum wage jobs! Now the DUP are telling Dublin to back off - we know that's all going to end well.
Add to that Davies saying that contingency planning should be read as preparing for no deal.
What the f*ck are we doing to ourselves. We risk being seen (if not already) as some tin-pot low tax offshore haven with zero credibility or influence on the world stage - looking back with doe-eyes at the age of empire.
We had a seat at the top table - one of the biggest players in the EU, we actually had control over the so-called lazy benefit cheats flooding in from eastern Europe. We have pretty much full employment but the vacancies are going to go through the roof - still lots of job losses likely so one balances the other. We had the veto on any treaty change, Maggie's rebate, we were outside the euro zone, not part of the Greek rescue, and full unhindered access to the biggest market place in the world. We control our borders (outside of Schengen) and our fiscal policies.
Yes we were duty bound to accept ECJ rulings - but how many of those were 'bad law'? We seem fixated with the ECJ taking away our sovereignty - are we also going to withdraw from NATO and the UN?
Sorry for the rant but I'm getting more and more angry at what we have done to ourselves.
Brexit- The biggest act of self harm ever inflicted on a nation by its people.
Yes, much worse than when the Nazis were elected in Germany. Remainers properly off their heads today.
The medical and banking agencies going (despite Brexit Bulldog saying they wouldn't), we've lost our seat at the International Court of Justice (symptomatic of Brexit rather than because of it I would suggest) and today warnings about the effect of Brexit on the aerospace industry http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42065836 - these are not zero hour contract minimum wage jobs! Now the DUP are telling Dublin to back off - we know that's all going to end well.
Add to that Davies saying that contingency planning should be read as preparing for no deal.
What the f*ck are we doing to ourselves. We risk being seen (if not already) as some tin-pot low tax offshore haven with zero credibility or influence on the world stage - looking back with doe-eyes at the age of empire.
We had a seat at the top table - one of the biggest players in the EU, we actually had control over the so-called lazy benefit cheats flooding in from eastern Europe. We have pretty much full employment but the vacancies are going to go through the roof - still lots of job losses likely so one balances the other. We had the veto on any treaty change, Maggie's rebate, we were outside the euro zone, not part of the Greek rescue, and full unhindered access to the biggest market place in the world. We control our borders (outside of Schengen) and our fiscal policies.
Yes we were duty bound to accept ECJ rulings - but how many of those were 'bad law'? We seem fixated with the ECJ taking away our sovereignty - are we also going to withdraw from NATO and the UN?
Sorry for the rant but I'm getting more and more angry at what we have done to ourselves.
Brexit- The biggest act of self harm ever inflicted on a nation by its people.
Yes, much worse than when the Nazis were elected in Germany. Remainers properly off their heads today.
That's a fair comment. Because Remainers like me have been asking, for ages, how we're going to benefit from Brexit, why it's going to be something from which we can all benefit and why we should rejoice at the fact that we're leaving the stability of the EU. And you've come up with something positive that we can all agree on and which is a great positive. So, thank you. And well done. We finally have the one, single, positive benefit for voting leave: "it's not quite as bad as the Germans electing Nazis".
I expect at some point soon, the Goings On in Germany will make some kind of appearance on here. Generally I feel that even the more considered British media will present them through a British prism. So for those who are interested I warmly recommend the - free - international pages of Der Spiegel. Already you've got three articles there which present a distinctively different view of the coalition talks failure. Also this article on the rise of the AfD and causes of it, is far and away the most insightful I have read.
Handelsblatt has an international edition, but it sees itself as the German FT, and is certainly looking to follow the FT paywall model, so you won't get much for free.
Overall though if you want to know what's happening in Germany, (or what the Germans really think about Brexit, come to that) best to ask a German with a brain, and there are a lot of them at Spiegel.
It's naive to think that newspapers do anything other than regurgitate media briefings and propaganda from politicians, lobby groups and surveys in support of editorial policy.
The EU has a well oiled media machine. It employs 86 press officers in the Commission alone, it has press officers for the EU Parliament, for every EU Policy and for every language and country.
How do you think anyone outside the Brexit negotiating room knows what went on, did Der Spiegel have their own journalist inside to make an independent assessment? The views of Der Spiegel will have come from unattributed sources. As we learned last week, the EU do not give attributed statements or interviews, far too democratic. Why can't you show us any Youtube videos of EU officials being grilled by German investigative journalists or EU Parliamentary Committees about the lack of progress in negotiations and whose fault it is?
I refer you yet again to Yanis my erstwhile Greek hero for laying bare the truth about the EU media machine. Briefing journalists of the outcome of failed negotiations, and even whose fault it is, before the meeting has even begun so it can make the morning's press.
It is obvious the EU is running rings around the government in the propaganda game, but it's not really our forte. Our journalists wouldn't stand for our politicians and civil servants only making public statements they refuse to be questioned on or challenged in the press or a televised interview. So only the UK position gets picked apart in the press, the EU position is its public prepared statements, and conflicting leaked unattributed briefings, and no arguments. Democracy you say?
Very disappointed with this. It wasn't "quite something" at all. I was hoping for a full 'Play it cool, Trig' moment. Instead Davis kept upright all the time and landed very well. If fact, I'd say it's the most accomplished thing he's since picking up the Brexshit portfolio.
We are nearing that time when people nominate a person of the year. In terms of political debate, commentary and prescience the clear winner is Lord Buckethead.
I expect at some point soon, the Goings On in Germany will make some kind of appearance on here. Generally I feel that even the more considered British media will present them through a British prism. So for those who are interested I warmly recommend the - free - international pages of Der Spiegel. Already you've got three articles there which present a distinctively different view of the coalition talks failure. Also this article on the rise of the AfD and causes of it, is far and away the most insightful I have read.
Handelsblatt has an international edition, but it sees itself as the German FT, and is certainly looking to follow the FT paywall model, so you won't get much for free.
Overall though if you want to know what's happening in Germany, (or what the Germans really think about Brexit, come to that) best to ask a German with a brain, and there are a lot of them at Spiegel.
It's naive to think that newspapers do anything other than regurgitate media briefings and propaganda from politicians, lobby groups and surveys in support of editorial policy.
The EU has a well oiled media machine. It employs 86 press officers in the Commission alone, it has press officers for the EU Parliament, for every EU Policy and for every language and country.
How do you think anyone outside the Brexit negotiating room knows what went on, did Der Spiegel have their own journalist inside to make an independent assessment? The views of Der Spiegel will have come from unattributed sources. As we learned last week, the EU do not give attributed statements or interviews, far too democratic. Why can't you show us any Youtube videos of EU officials being grilled by German investigative journalists or EU Parliamentary Committees about the lack of progress in negotiations and whose fault it is?
I refer you yet again to Yanis my erstwhile Greek hero for laying bare the truth about the EU media machine. Briefing journalists of the outcome of failed negotiations, and even whose fault it is, before the meeting has even begun so it can make the morning's press.
It is obvious the EU is running rings around the government in the propaganda game, but it's not really our forte. Our journalists wouldn't stand for our politicians and civil servants only making public statements they refuse to be questioned on or challenged in the press or a televised interview. So only the UK position gets picked apart in the press, the EU position is its public prepared statements, and conflicting leaked unattributed briefings, and no arguments. Democracy you say?
Really, Dipps, that isn't one of your more effective posts.
1. I was recommending Spiegel to open-minded readers not in respect of Brexit coverage but in respect of the German national political situation. I recommended its coverage of that as superior to anything the British press can offer for obvious reasons, and isn't it nice that they are humble enough to offer it in the English language, for free?
2. You don't need to refer me to your Greek hero since I am already a third of the way through his engaging and thought provoking if somewhat chaotically structured book. Thank you for the recommendation. I fear that it may fail to properly consider the role of endemic corruption and graft in the Greek nation in their plight, but let's see.
3. If you believe "the EU" is getting an easy ride from the British press, you may think about the fact that most of the pro-Brexit press doesn't bother to spend on its foreign sections any more. It thinks its readers aren't interested in 'foreign". The BBC is an exception. You obviously missed Katya Adler's series on Europe last year. Pity, you'd have enjoyed it, as given the chance she displayed a previously unsuspected EU-sceptic mindset. But that's the thing. Being a consummate professional, you would not detect that from her news reports, and that is why you can trust her to ask the right questions (in any of five languages), and make an intelligent analysis of the answers. And she's quite fit (but my gosh, doesn't she know it).
Anyway, enough of this, it's showtime. Rochdale on a Tuesday night in front of 7,000. What a time to be alive in Brexit Britain ! :-)
I expect at some point soon, the Goings On in Germany will make some kind of appearance on here. Generally I feel that even the more considered British media will present them through a British prism. So for those who are interested I warmly recommend the - free - international pages of Der Spiegel. Already you've got three articles there which present a distinctively different view of the coalition talks failure. Also this article on the rise of the AfD and causes of it, is far and away the most insightful I have read.
Handelsblatt has an international edition, but it sees itself as the German FT, and is certainly looking to follow the FT paywall model, so you won't get much for free.
Overall though if you want to know what's happening in Germany, (or what the Germans really think about Brexit, come to that) best to ask a German with a brain, and there are a lot of them at Spiegel.
It's naive to think that newspapers do anything other than regurgitate media briefings and propaganda from politicians, lobby groups and surveys in support of editorial policy.
The EU has a well oiled media machine. It employs 86 press officers in the Commission alone, it has press officers for the EU Parliament, for every EU Policy and for every language and country.
How do you think anyone outside the Brexit negotiating room knows what went on, did Der Spiegel have their own journalist inside to make an independent assessment? The views of Der Spiegel will have come from unattributed sources. As we learned last week, the EU do not give attributed statements or interviews, far too democratic. Why can't you show us any Youtube videos of EU officials being grilled by German investigative journalists or EU Parliamentary Committees about the lack of progress in negotiations and whose fault it is?
I refer you yet again to Yanis my erstwhile Greek hero for laying bare the truth about the EU media machine. Briefing journalists of the outcome of failed negotiations, and even whose fault it is, before the meeting has even begun so it can make the morning's press.
It is obvious the EU is running rings around the government in the propaganda game, but it's not really our forte. Our journalists wouldn't stand for our politicians and civil servants only making public statements they refuse to be questioned on or challenged in the press or a televised interview. So only the UK position gets picked apart in the press, the EU position is its public prepared statements, and conflicting leaked unattributed briefings, and no arguments. Democracy you say?
Really, Dipps, that isn't one of your more effective posts.
1. I was recommending Spiegel to open-minded readers not in respect of Brexit coverage but in respect of the German national political situation. I recommended its coverage of that as superior to anything the British press can offer for obvious reasons, and isn't it nice that they are humble enough to offer it in the English language, for free?
2. You don't need to refer me to your Greek hero since I am already a third of the way through his engaging and thought provoking if somewhat chaotically structured book. Thank you for the recommendation. I fear that it may fail to properly consider the role of endemic corruption and graft in the Greek nation in their plight, but let's see.
3. If you believe "the EU" is getting an easy ride from the British press, you may think about the fact that most of the pro-Brexit press doesn't bother to spend on its foreign sections any more. It thinks its readers aren't interested in 'foreign". The BBC is an exception. You obviously missed Katya Adler's series on Europe last year. Pity, you'd have enjoyed it, as given the chance she displayed a previously unsuspected EU-sceptic mindset. But that's the thing. Being a consummate professional, you would not detect that from her news reports, and that is why you can trust her to ask the right questions (in any of five languages), and make an intelligent analysis of the answers. And she's quite fit (but my gosh, doesn't she know it).
Anyway, enough of this, it's showtime. Rochdale on a Tuesday night in front of 7,000. What a time to be alive in Brexit Britain ! :-)
Very disappointed with this. It wasn't "quite something" at all. I was hoping for a full 'Play it cool, Trig' moment. Instead Davis kept upright all the time and landed very well. If fact, I'd say it's the most accomplished thing he's since picking up the Brexshit portfolio.
Not looking where he was going. Stumbled. Turned round looking to blame the step.
Comments
Those in ‘office’ work tend to take the view we are mad to leave and/or relish the fact they may gain more business from it.
It is those in manual work, bar workers, taxi drivers, construction workers, etc who are inclined to think that getting out of the EU is preferable.
The link from @PragueAddick is very relevant, in many cases, ‘the September election was a cry for attention’.
Any connection to the Merkel crisis revealing how close the EU project is to going off the rails again?
Can you point to opinion polls showing significant support for Germany leaving the EU? I honestly cannot remember seeing one. That group can certainly be anti-immigration, and can be anti-Schengen as part of that (ref. the East European gangs nicking their cars and driving them over the border).
There are similarities between the AfD and its support base and UKIP, and its support base, but also a lot of differences, and it pays to understand them.
This is purely anecdotal based on the fact that l lived and worked there for a long time and still regularly visit.
You have to either believe me or not. To be honest, I don’t mind ... I know I am not lying.
It is anecdotal over the last few years. Perhaps they are lying to me just to make me feel good about Brexit?
Think I’ll leave it there ... pointless getting into an argument about my personal conversations with people in Germany. I know what I said and I know what they said ... obviously I should have taped the conversations so I could retain proof
I suppose its the years of working for companies and ad agencies who made decisions based on results from research into what the target customers think, as opposed to the personal preference of the marketing director (or, quite often his wife, or mistress), that makes me wary of 'anecdotal' evidence. How tedious of me.
Dear oh dear.
Why not, although it looks like there will be a plethora of new polls coming out of Germany in the coming weeks so why don't we keep an eye out for them.
Professional research beats anecdotal observation, even if polling is not infallible by any means. Can we agree on that?
I’m surprised we even had to have a ‘discussion’ about it!
Remainers properly off their heads today.
The EU has a well oiled media machine. It employs 86 press officers in the Commission alone, it has press officers for the EU Parliament, for every EU Policy and for every language and country.
How do you think anyone outside the Brexit negotiating room knows what went on, did Der Spiegel have their own journalist inside to make an independent assessment? The views of Der Spiegel will have come from unattributed sources. As we learned last week, the EU do not give attributed statements or interviews, far too democratic. Why can't you show us any Youtube videos of EU officials being grilled by German investigative journalists or EU Parliamentary Committees about the lack of progress in negotiations and whose fault it is?
I refer you yet again to Yanis my erstwhile Greek hero for laying bare the truth about the EU media machine. Briefing journalists of the outcome of failed negotiations, and even whose fault it is, before the meeting has even begun so it can make the morning's press.
It is obvious the EU is running rings around the government in the propaganda game, but it's not really our forte. Our journalists wouldn't stand for our politicians and civil servants only making public statements they refuse to be questioned on or challenged in the press or a televised interview. So only the UK position gets picked apart in the press, the EU position is its public prepared statements, and conflicting leaked unattributed briefings, and no arguments. Democracy you say?
1. I was recommending Spiegel to open-minded readers not in respect of Brexit coverage but in respect of the German national political situation. I recommended its coverage of that as superior to anything the British press can offer for obvious reasons, and isn't it nice that they are humble enough to offer it in the English language, for free?
2. You don't need to refer me to your Greek hero since I am already a third of the way through his engaging and thought provoking if somewhat chaotically structured book. Thank you for the recommendation. I fear that it may fail to properly consider the role of endemic corruption and graft in the Greek nation in their plight, but let's see.
3. If you believe "the EU" is getting an easy ride from the British press, you may think about the fact that most of the pro-Brexit press doesn't bother to spend on its foreign sections any more. It thinks its readers aren't interested in 'foreign". The BBC is an exception. You obviously missed Katya Adler's series on Europe last year. Pity, you'd have enjoyed it, as given the chance she displayed a previously unsuspected EU-sceptic mindset. But that's the thing. Being a consummate professional, you would not detect that from her news reports, and that is why you can trust her to ask the right questions (in any of five languages), and make an intelligent analysis of the answers. And she's quite fit (but my gosh, doesn't she know it).
Anyway, enough of this, it's showtime. Rochdale on a Tuesday night in front of 7,000. What a time to be alive in Brexit Britain ! :-)