Travel insurance should always be taken out as EHIC doesn't cover all costs, such as loss, theft or damage to personal belongings and travel insurance also usually covers curtailment, cancellation and a ton of other benefits.
You're a fool to travel without it.
Correct. But the additional cost of €7 for no additional perceivable benefit is borderline theft.
You mentioned the magic word "border" which Brexiteers cannot deal with. No deal means no Irish border, which means EU members of WTO will veto any trade deal we try to make until Boris invents X-ray CCTV cameras that csn identify any goods crossing the border without a trusted trader stamp.
Right, so let’s just revoke Article 50 now that we know we can.
So, are you saying we are stuck in the EU for evermore, seeing as it's impossible to leave. Or perhaps we should just defer the date of leaving until either..
1) Border issues can be sorted with this magic "eye in the sky" system.
Or
2) There is a united Ireland, so that NI is not part of the UK & there can be a border in the Irish Sea.
Which will be handy as any Election from now on that I take part in, I will simply ignore the result. So when Labour get in , put up Income Tax by 20% I'll just not pay it as I won't recognise the decision taken by the electorate. Fair enough.
Solve the Irish border issue and you can proceed with your brexit. Until you solve that problem that brexit will be denied to you I'm afraid.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
Travel insurance should always be taken out as EHIC doesn't cover all costs, such as loss, theft or damage to personal belongings and travel insurance also usually covers curtailment, cancellation and a ton of other benefits.
You're a fool to travel without it.
Correct. But the additional cost of €7 for no additional perceivable benefit is borderline theft.
You mentioned the magic word "border" which Brexiteers cannot deal with. No deal means no Irish border, which means EU members of WTO will veto any trade deal we try to make until Boris invents X-ray CCTV cameras that csn identify any goods crossing the border without a trusted trader stamp.
Right, so let’s just revoke Article 50 now that we know we can.
So, are you saying we are stuck in the EU for evermore, seeing as it's impossible to leave. Or perhaps we should just defer the date of leaving until either..
1) Border issues can be sorted with this magic "eye in the sky" system.
Or
2) There is a united Ireland, so that NI is not part of the UK & there can be a border in the Irish Sea.
Which will be handy as any Election from now on that I take part in, I will simply ignore the result. So when Labour get in , put up Income Tax by 20% I'll just not pay it as I won't recognise the decision taken by the electorate. Fair enough.
Solve the Irish border issue and you can proceed with your brexit. Until you solve that problem that brexit will be denied to you I'm afraid.
The young people talking house prices is not that far fetched. In my experience many sixth form aged people dream of having their own place, with mates, away from parental control, so contemplating affordability by them is not far fetched.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
I agree that this thread is not at all representative of what people think. Going onto message boards on newspapers or looking at comments on Facebook for example suggests that there are huge amounts of people with hardline views who are happy for there to be No deal. Also, the Leave voters who have stopped writing on here are probably far more representative of the general viewpoint and understanding about the EU than those who still do. I imagine the 'you lost, get over it' attitude is still as strong as ever though they are not interested in the detail of what is happening. We do also still see random WW2 references which I imagine is still the mindset of a lot of people. Overall I wouldn't be confident at all that another referendum would see a clear win for Remain, but surely another vote would be better than crashing out with no deal.
What are the chances of either the Tory ERG members or the Tory Remainers (or both) supporting a no-confidence vote in the government as this would probably lead to a general election. In that case Theresa May would have to resign (as she has promised not too stand at the next election) clearing the way for a new leader who is sympathetic to their cause.
They would then of course have to win the ensuing election, but perhaps they see that as being more likely than getting what they want under May. For the ERG it is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a hard Brexit.
I believe May said she wouldn't stand at the 2022 General Election.
She did indeed, so it opens the question that there could be an early election in which she stands as Tory leader and gets another 5 years/we have no election in 2022.
I had a look at the unofficial (I think) Charlton Facebook page yesterday. A female started a Brexit discussion and whilst one liners, the vast majority seemed to want Brexit even more.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
You don't need Brexit to get house prices down though. You need proper regulation. Essentially, you voted Brexit to tank the economy...on purpose? Pretty punk I guess
Travel insurance should always be taken out as EHIC doesn't cover all costs, such as loss, theft or damage to personal belongings and travel insurance also usually covers curtailment, cancellation and a ton of other benefits.
You're a fool to travel without it.
Correct. But the additional cost of €7 for no additional perceivable benefit is borderline theft.
You mentioned the magic word "border" which Brexiteers cannot deal with. No deal means no Irish border, which means EU members of WTO will veto any trade deal we try to make until Boris invents X-ray CCTV cameras that csn identify any goods crossing the border without a trusted trader stamp.
Right, so let’s just revoke Article 50 now that we know we can.
So, are you saying we are stuck in the EU for evermore, seeing as it's impossible to leave. Or perhaps we should just defer the date of leaving until either..
1) Border issues can be sorted with this magic "eye in the sky" system.
Or
2) There is a united Ireland, so that NI is not part of the UK & there can be a border in the Irish Sea.
Which will be handy as any Election from now on that I take part in, I will simply ignore the result. So when Labour get in , put up Income Tax by 20% I'll just not pay it as I won't recognise the decision taken by the electorate. Fair enough.
Solve the Irish border issue and you can proceed with your brexit. Until you solve that problem that brexit will be denied to you I'm afraid.
What do we do with the Scottish border? Because as sure as God made little green apples the Scots will at some point in the not too distant future seek independence again and will then look to join the EU.
You think Brexit is bad so far? This is the easy bit Unless it escapes from this mess now, Britain will be locked into a decade of political crises
The political chaos in London has now created a zombie prime minister to go along with a zombie Brexit, a dead project that carries on in its own brainlessly destructive way. At this low point for British politics, it is almost impossible to remember a startling fact: this is the easy bit. The cacophonous discord created by the withdrawal agreement is just the overture to the mad opera of Brexit. Unless the UK gets itself out of this mess now, it will be set for at least a decade of conflict, uncertainty and instability.
Even if Theresa May somehow manages to force her deal through by delaying it until the only other option is a catastrophic no-deal departure on March 29th, 2019, the tribulations will not be over. That highly unlikely achievement would not be the beginning of the end. It would be merely the end of the beginning. What would follow would be a world of trouble.
This has been the easy bit because the withdrawal agreement had to deal with just three things, helpfully summarised by Michel Barnier at the start of the process: people, money, Ireland. People means the mutual rights of EU and UK citizens currently living in each other’s territories. There was always going to be a deal precisely because the needs are mutual. Money meant the divorce bill that the UK would have to pay to meet the commitments it has made to the EU budget. It is an emotive question and there was some ridiculous shape-throwing from the likes of Boris (“go whistle”) Johnson. But, in the end, it’s just money – a figure was not that difficult to agree.
Evil Irish plot And that left, of course, the dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone. In effect, the British had, in this phase of Brexit, one job to do: come up with a way to live up to its own guarantees that, whatever happens, there will be no reimposition of a physical infrastructure on the Border. It is important to bear in mind that these guarantees were not – as is now being widely suggested – forced on the British as part of an evil Irish plot to trap them in bondage to the EU.
Theresa May’s own words, in her speech in Florence in September 2017, were: “We will not accept any physical infrastructure at the Border.” It was Britain, not just Ireland and not just the EU, that insisted a way had to be found to avoid in all circumstances this unacceptable outcome.
It failed to do this, even after it agreed to the now-notorious backstop in December 2017. The all-party House of Commons committee on Brexit summed things up in its latest report, issued last weekend: “In December 2017, we said that we did not see how it would be possible to reconcile maintaining an open Border on the island of Ireland with leaving the single market and customs union, which would inevitably make the Northern Irish Border the UK’s customs and regulatory border with the European Union. Since then, we have seen no realistic, long-term proposals from the Government that would address this.”
May’s government had one job to do and it didn’t do it. That failure meant that the withdrawal agreement had to create a default in which the UK remains in a customs union with the EU and Northern Ireland remains effectively tied to the single market too. Contd....
Damnably difficult Hence, as we’ve seen, all the Mayhem. The Border question is admittedly a damnably difficult one, but the fact is that this one thing alone has led to the open collapse of political authority in the UK. So how, then, will Britain deal with the huge array of difficult questions that will arise if the Brexit show somehow stays on the road? For there can be no illusion that if only May can pull off the near impossible trick of getting a withdrawal deal through parliament in January, all the rest of the way will be clear.
Consider the issue that, for May herself, is the single defining purpose of Brexit: control of immigration. She believes – and Jeremy Corbyn is in uncomfortable agreement with her on this – that ending freedom of movement is what Leave voters most desire and that if it is delivered, all the pain of Brexit will be justified. So where is the British government’s post-Brexit immigration policy?
On October 17th, 2017, the then home secretary, Amber Rudd, told the home affairs committee at Westminster: “We have our White Paper coming out on immigration by the end of the year [ie 2017].” On March 28th, 2018, Rudd told the same committee: “We have decided to wait until the migration advisory committee reports in its entirety in September this year to go forward with the policy and the White Paper after that.” On July 10th, 2018, the current home secretary, Sajid Javid, told the committee: “The timeframe that we set out… is a White Paper in the autumn followed by an immigration Bill early next year.” On December 2nd, 2018, Javid told the BBC, “it’s very unlikely to be published before the vote” on the withdrawal treaty.
Simplistic promises Could it be that the White Paper on immigration has not been published because the simplistic promises that were made as part of the pitch for Brexit cannot be fulfilled? It is extremely difficult to reconcile the needs of businesses and the NHS, the desire of non-European ethnic communities for more immigration from their countries of origin and the expectation of many Leave voters that immigration would simply cease after Brexit. As rhetoric meets reality, tensions will surely rise.
But the biggest problems will come if and when the British and the EU start to negotiate their future relationship. They have a political declaration but it is much thinner than anyone expected it to be even a year ago. Once those negotiations start, the British may become nostalgic for the good old days when there was only the Irish backstop to give them migraines.
Instead of one big issue, they will have to deal with trade in goods and services; foreign policy, security and policing co-ordination; participation in EU agencies; agriculture; fisheries; data protection; labour mobility and the mutual recognition of professional qualifications; broadcasting; intellectual property; public procurement; consumer safety and standards; aviation; freight; energy; medicines; and scientific co-operation. And instead of dealing with the EU 27 as a bloc, they will have to face 27 countries, each with a veto and each with its own particular interests to defend. All of his – bear in mind – while also trying to construct a trade deal with, for example, Donald Trump.
Extension And by July 2020, Britain will have to decide whether it wishes to ask for an extension of the transition period or accept the implementation of the backstop. The first will involve more payments to the EU and a longer period of rule-taking – cue explosions of outrage. The second is already imprinted in political consciousness as a disaster. So more political chaos. And in principle this could be repeated annually as the same choice returns until a final settlement is reached.
This, remember, is the benign scenario, in which the withdrawal agreement somehow passes through Westminster. The alternative – no deal – is much, much worse. Brexit is not leading Britain through the current political desert to a land of milk and honey, but through one desert into another. The only rational course of action is to stop the caravan while there is still time.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
I agree that this thread is not at all representative of what people think. Going onto message boards on newspapers or looking at comments on Facebook for example suggests that there are huge amounts of people with hardline views who are happy for there to be No deal. Also, the Leave voters who have stopped writing on here are probably far more representative of the general viewpoint and understanding about the EU than those who do. I imagine the 'you lost, get over it' attitude is still as strong as ever though they are not interested in the detail of what is happening. We do also still see random WW2 references which I imagine is still the mindset of a lot of people. Overall I wouldn't be confident at all that another referendum would see a clear win for Remain, but surely another vote would be better than crashing out with no deal.
You mention detail which is probably going to be the thing that focuses minds. The EU visit charge announced yesterday may seem small taken in isolation, but other things (any shortages, delays, uncertain citizenship, staff shortages, stockpiling, bureaucracy, EHIC, visas, security)if they happen might change minds. Yes it has been derided as project fear so far, but the word 'fear' is there for a reason,
What are the chances of either the Tory ERG members or the Tory Remainers (or both) supporting a no-confidence vote in the government as this would probably lead to a general election. In that case Theresa May would have to resign (as she has promised not too stand at the next election) clearing the way for a new leader who is sympathetic to their cause.
They would then of course have to win the ensuing election, but perhaps they see that as being more likely than getting what they want under May. For the ERG it is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a hard Brexit.
You might persuade a handful of Tories to vote with a Labour vote of no confidence but I think pretty much to a man (woman) they would support the government. The parliamentary party view of Brexit will be vastly different from the constituency party view. Would be a very brave Tory MP to assist Labour in bringing down a Tory government.
FWIW. I don’t think Labour will bring a vote of no confidence forward. I’m convinced they would lose it under any circumstance and won’t risk it. Once the deal is defeated in the HoC I think they will throw their weight behind a second referendum.
Corbyn will be desperately trying to avoid this option because that opens up the possibility of remain and we all know he’s just as keen to leave as JRM
Travel insurance should always be taken out as EHIC doesn't cover all costs, such as loss, theft or damage to personal belongings and travel insurance also usually covers curtailment, cancellation and a ton of other benefits.
You're a fool to travel without it.
Correct. But the additional cost of €7 for no additional perceivable benefit is borderline theft.
You mentioned the magic word "border" which Brexiteers cannot deal with. No deal means no Irish border, which means EU members of WTO will veto any trade deal we try to make until Boris invents X-ray CCTV cameras that csn identify any goods crossing the border without a trusted trader stamp.
Right, so let’s just revoke Article 50 now that we know we can.
So, are you saying we are stuck in the EU for evermore, seeing as it's impossible to leave. Or perhaps we should just defer the date of leaving until either..
1) Border issues can be sorted with this magic "eye in the sky" system.
Or
2) There is a united Ireland, so that NI is not part of the UK & there can be a border in the Irish Sea.
Which will be handy as any Election from now on that I take part in, I will simply ignore the result. So when Labour get in , put up Income Tax by 20% I'll just not pay it as I won't recognise the decision taken by the electorate. Fair enough.
Solve the Irish border issue and you can proceed with your brexit. Until you solve that problem that brexit will be denied to you I'm afraid.
What do we do with the Scottish border? Because as sure as God made little green apples the Scots will at some point in the not too distant future seek independence again and will then look to join the EU.
Indeed. And the border between Lee and those feckers from Blackheath and Grove Park.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
You don't need Brexit to get house prices down though. You need proper regulation. Essentially, you voted Brexit to tank the economy...on purpose? Pretty punk I guess
It was one of the reasons, plus your previous attitude on here pushed me over the edge and I have no doubt that sort of attitude also persuaded many people to vote Brexit for the same reason. NB I think your attitude has mellowed somewhat and I'm genuinely not wishing to start a row, because I'm beyond all that.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
You don't need Brexit to get house prices down though. You need proper regulation. Essentially, you voted Brexit to tank the economy...on purpose? Pretty punk I guess
It was one of the reasons, plus your previous attitude on here pushed me over the edge and I have no doubt that sort of attitude also persuaded many people to vote Brexit for the same reason. NB I think your attitude has mellowed somewhat and I'm genuinely not wishing to start a row, because I'm beyond all that.
Of course, and I am not looking to row, but it does seem odd (and maybe even a little heartening) that a regular Tory voter would throw his vote behind fiscal chaos and economic shrinkage. There's more than one way to skin the inequality cat, of course, but maybe Brexit would force us to think creatively...aah no what am I saying
What are the chances of either the Tory ERG members or the Tory Remainers (or both) supporting a no-confidence vote in the government as this would probably lead to a general election. In that case Theresa May would have to resign (as she has promised not too stand at the next election) clearing the way for a new leader who is sympathetic to their cause.
They would then of course have to win the ensuing election, but perhaps they see that as being more likely than getting what they want under May. For the ERG it is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a hard Brexit.
You might persuade a handful of Tories to vote with a Labour vote of no confidence but I think pretty much to a man (woman) they would support the government. The parliamentary party view of Brexit will be vastly different from the constituency party view. Would be a very brave Tory MP to assist Labour in bringing down a Tory government.
FWIW. I don’t think Labour will bring a vote of no confidence forward. I’m convinced they would lose it under any circumstance and won’t risk it. Once the deal is defeated in the HoC I think they will throw their weight behind a second referendum.
Corbyn will be desperately trying to avoid this option because that opens up the possibility of remain and we all know he’s just as keen to leave as JRM
I can see the possibility of the ERG Tories voting with the opposition to get an election/change of leader with the ultimate goal of getting a hard Brexit. I believe the ERG want it that badly and how different is this from voting against May's Brexit deal which could effectively have the same result.
As I have said before, anything can happen. When we first started discussing what would happen next with the Brexit bill who foresaw the pulling of it at the last moment followed by a Tory no-confidence vote. Who predicted May lurching around the EU desperately looking (in vain) for support.
I also think that Labour would lose a no-confidence vote, unless the ERG got behind them which is why I speculate about possibilities. Also why do you think Corbyn is as keen to leave as JRM? I don't think that can be supported by any evidence other than by what people choose to believe. Corbyn has said that he voted REMAIN (edit: freudian slip there) and would do so again, he leads a parliamentary party which is 98% remain and probably 70% of its voters are remain too. He might well be crap on Brexit but he does not have the same wishes as Mogg as to its outcome.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
You don't need Brexit to get house prices down though. You need proper regulation. Essentially, you voted Brexit to tank the economy...on purpose? Pretty punk I guess
It was one of the reasons, plus your previous attitude on here pushed me over the edge and I have no doubt that sort of attitude also persuaded many people to vote Brexit for the same reason. NB I think your attitude has mellowed somewhat and I'm genuinely not wishing to start a row, because I'm beyond all that.
Of course, and I am not looking to row, but it does seem odd (and maybe even a little heartening) that a regular Tory voter would throw his vote behind fiscal chaos and economic shrinkage. There's more than one way to skin the inequality cat, of course, but maybe Brexit would force us to think creatively...aah no what am I saying
Well, the reason of course is that I have 2 sons aged 26 & 23 who have no chance of buying their own property in the SE London/North Kent area (local), unless I assist by possibly taking out a lifetime mortgage on my house.
I saved up and moved out of my parents council house age 25, to start a new life free to do as I wish. This is my personal main concern. I don't see why they should have to rent (pay someone else's mortgage) or live with their parents indefinitely.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
I can only speak for myself but as a lefty I flirted with some of the benefits of leaving the EU, for me in particular I liked the idea that with labour shortages we would be forced as a nation to actually properly educate, train and support those that have been 'left behind' in that group I include disabled people and ex servicemen, who at the time I supported at work.
But of course on closer examination I concluded that we have had that in our gift for decades and have done nothing about it and have in fact removed all those things during austerity (don't start me on 'prevention'. It is rather like the 'reduce immigration' argument in the sense that we already had that in power to do, but didn't.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
You don't need Brexit to get house prices down though. You need proper regulation. Essentially, you voted Brexit to tank the economy...on purpose? Pretty punk I guess
It was one of the reasons, plus your previous attitude on here pushed me over the edge and I have no doubt that sort of attitude also persuaded many people to vote Brexit for the same reason. NB I think your attitude has mellowed somewhat and I'm genuinely not wishing to start a row, because I'm beyond all that.
Of course, and I am not looking to row, but it does seem odd (and maybe even a little heartening) that a regular Tory voter would throw his vote behind fiscal chaos and economic shrinkage. There's more than one way to skin the inequality cat, of course, but maybe Brexit would force us to think creatively...aah no what am I saying
Well, the reason of course is that I have 2 sons aged 26 & 23 who have no chance of buying their own property in the SE London/North Kent area (local), unless I assist by possibly taking out a lifetime mortgage on my house.
I saved up and moved out of my parents council house age 25, to start a new life free to do as I wish. This is my personal main concern. I don't see why they should have to rent (pay someone else's mortgage) or live with their parents indefinitely.
But there are two parts to buying a house, the price and the ability to pay it. Wrecking the economy might reduce the first but it will also significantly reduce the second.
“House prices are too high so we should tank our economy” is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve heard in favour of Brexit TBH.
What are the chances of either the Tory ERG members or the Tory Remainers (or both) supporting a no-confidence vote in the government as this would probably lead to a general election. In that case Theresa May would have to resign (as she has promised not too stand at the next election) clearing the way for a new leader who is sympathetic to their cause.
They would then of course have to win the ensuing election, but perhaps they see that as being more likely than getting what they want under May. For the ERG it is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a hard Brexit.
You might persuade a handful of Tories to vote with a Labour vote of no confidence but I think pretty much to a man (woman) they would support the government. The parliamentary party view of Brexit will be vastly different from the constituency party view. Would be a very brave Tory MP to assist Labour in bringing down a Tory government.
FWIW. I don’t think Labour will bring a vote of no confidence forward. I’m convinced they would lose it under any circumstance and won’t risk it. Once the deal is defeated in the HoC I think they will throw their weight behind a second referendum.
Corbyn will be desperately trying to avoid this option because that opens up the possibility of remain and we all know he’s just as keen to leave as JRM
I can see the possibility of the ERG Tories voting with the opposition to get an election/change of leader with the ultimate goal of getting a hard Brexit. I believe the ERG want it that badly and how different is this from voting against May's Brexit deal which could effectively have the same result.
As I have said before, anything can happen. When we first started discussing what would happen next with the Brexit bill who foresaw the pulling of it at the last moment followed by a Tory no-confidence vote. Who predicted May lurching around the EU desperately looking (in vain) for support.
I also think that Labour would lose a no-confidence vote, unless the ERG got behind them which is why I speculate about possibilities. Also why do you think Corbyn is as keen to leave as JRM? I don't think that can be supported by any evidence other than by what people choose to believe. Corbyn has said that he voted Leave and would do so again, he leads a parliamentary party which is 98% remain and probably 70% of its voters are remain too. He might well be crap on Brexit but he does not have the same wishes as Mogg as to its outcome.
CE Do you think people are maybe becoming Brexiters because of the way they see the EU 27 acting ? Sheer bloodymindedness by the British ?
Definitely, although I have to say the EU27 have done everything they said they would. It's us that can't make our mind up and keep chopping and changing.
What are the chances of either the Tory ERG members or the Tory Remainers (or both) supporting a no-confidence vote in the government as this would probably lead to a general election. In that case Theresa May would have to resign (as she has promised not too stand at the next election) clearing the way for a new leader who is sympathetic to their cause.
They would then of course have to win the ensuing election, but perhaps they see that as being more likely than getting what they want under May. For the ERG it is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a hard Brexit.
You might persuade a handful of Tories to vote with a Labour vote of no confidence but I think pretty much to a man (woman) they would support the government. The parliamentary party view of Brexit will be vastly different from the constituency party view. Would be a very brave Tory MP to assist Labour in bringing down a Tory government.
FWIW. I don’t think Labour will bring a vote of no confidence forward. I’m convinced they would lose it under any circumstance and won’t risk it. Once the deal is defeated in the HoC I think they will throw their weight behind a second referendum.
Corbyn will be desperately trying to avoid this option because that opens up the possibility of remain and we all know he’s just as keen to leave as JRM
I can see the possibility of the ERG Tories voting with the opposition to get an election/change of leader with the ultimate goal of getting a hard Brexit. I believe the ERG want it that badly and how different is this from voting against May's Brexit deal which could effectively have the same result.
As I have said before, anything can happen. When we first started discussing what would happen next with the Brexit bill who foresaw the pulling of it at the last moment followed by a Tory no-confidence vote. Who predicted May lurching around the EU desperately looking (in vain) for support.
I also think that Labour would lose a no-confidence vote, unless the ERG got behind them which is why I speculate about possibilities. Also why do you think Corbyn is as keen to leave as JRM? I don't think that can be supported by any evidence other than by what people choose to believe. Corbyn has said that he voted Leave and would do so again, he leads a parliamentary party which is 98% remain and probably 70% of its voters are remain too. He might well be crap on Brexit but he does not have the same wishes as Mogg as to its outcome.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
You don't need Brexit to get house prices down though. You need proper regulation. Essentially, you voted Brexit to tank the economy...on purpose? Pretty punk I guess
It was one of the reasons, plus your previous attitude on here pushed me over the edge and I have no doubt that sort of attitude also persuaded many people to vote Brexit for the same reason. NB I think your attitude has mellowed somewhat and I'm genuinely not wishing to start a row, because I'm beyond all that.
Of course, and I am not looking to row, but it does seem odd (and maybe even a little heartening) that a regular Tory voter would throw his vote behind fiscal chaos and economic shrinkage. There's more than one way to skin the inequality cat, of course, but maybe Brexit would force us to think creatively...aah no what am I saying
Well, the reason of course is that I have 2 sons aged 26 & 23 who have no chance of buying their own property in the SE London/North Kent area (local), unless I assist by possibly taking out a lifetime mortgage on my house.
I saved up and moved out of my parents council house age 25, to start a new life free to do as I wish. This is my personal main concern. I don't see why they should have to rent (pay someone else's mortgage) or live with their parents indefinitely.
But there are two parts to buying a house, the price and the ability to pay it. Wrecking the economy might reduce the first but it will also significantly reduce the second.
“House prices are too high so we should tank our economy” is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve heard in favour of Brexit TBH.
I really don't think that @Covered End was saying that. House prices are too high and the process is too open for foreign investors to exploit. Affordable housing is a good thing but like others have said we have had other means to control and regulate that but have chosen not to.
I have to say hearing people talk around the country, I'm far from confident that Remain would win more votes than Brexit, if it was a simple choice between the two.
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
You don't need Brexit to get house prices down though. You need proper regulation. Essentially, you voted Brexit to tank the economy...on purpose? Pretty punk I guess
It was one of the reasons, plus your previous attitude on here pushed me over the edge and I have no doubt that sort of attitude also persuaded many people to vote Brexit for the same reason. NB I think your attitude has mellowed somewhat and I'm genuinely not wishing to start a row, because I'm beyond all that.
Of course, and I am not looking to row, but it does seem odd (and maybe even a little heartening) that a regular Tory voter would throw his vote behind fiscal chaos and economic shrinkage. There's more than one way to skin the inequality cat, of course, but maybe Brexit would force us to think creatively...aah no what am I saying
Well, the reason of course is that I have 2 sons aged 26 & 23 who have no chance of buying their own property in the SE London/North Kent area (local), unless I assist by possibly taking out a lifetime mortgage on my house.
I saved up and moved out of my parents council house age 25, to start a new life free to do as I wish. This is my personal main concern. I don't see why they should have to rent (pay someone else's mortgage) or live with their parents indefinitely.
But there are two parts to buying a house, the price and the ability to pay it. Wrecking the economy might reduce the first but it will also significantly reduce the second.
“House prices are too high so we should tank our economy” is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve heard in favour of Brexit TBH.
Tbf I never said tank the economy and it has already proved correct that Central London prices have fallen heavily, whilst the economy continues to grow.
What are the chances of either the Tory ERG members or the Tory Remainers (or both) supporting a no-confidence vote in the government as this would probably lead to a general election. In that case Theresa May would have to resign (as she has promised not too stand at the next election) clearing the way for a new leader who is sympathetic to their cause.
They would then of course have to win the ensuing election, but perhaps they see that as being more likely than getting what they want under May. For the ERG it is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a hard Brexit.
You might persuade a handful of Tories to vote with a Labour vote of no confidence but I think pretty much to a man (woman) they would support the government. The parliamentary party view of Brexit will be vastly different from the constituency party view. Would be a very brave Tory MP to assist Labour in bringing down a Tory government.
FWIW. I don’t think Labour will bring a vote of no confidence forward. I’m convinced they would lose it under any circumstance and won’t risk it. Once the deal is defeated in the HoC I think they will throw their weight behind a second referendum.
Corbyn will be desperately trying to avoid this option because that opens up the possibility of remain and we all know he’s just as keen to leave as JRM
I can see the possibility of the ERG Tories voting with the opposition to get an election/change of leader with the ultimate goal of getting a hard Brexit. I believe the ERG want it that badly and how different is this from voting against May's Brexit deal which could effectively have the same result.
As I have said before, anything can happen. When we first started discussing what would happen next with the Brexit bill who foresaw the pulling of it at the last moment followed by a Tory no-confidence vote. Who predicted May lurching around the EU desperately looking (in vain) for support.
I also think that Labour would lose a no-confidence vote, unless the ERG got behind them which is why I speculate about possibilities. Also why do you think Corbyn is as keen to leave as JRM? I don't think that can be supported by any evidence other than by what people choose to believe. Corbyn has said that he voted Leave and would do so again, he leads a parliamentary party which is 98% remain and probably 70% of its voters are remain too. He might well be crap on Brexit but he does not have the same wishes as Mogg as to its outcome.
Comments
I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public.
You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so.
Regarding voting Brexit to reduce the staggering property prices in London and the South East, that was undoubtedly one of my reasons and it has already proved to have been correct, with Central London prices already falling significantly.
I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family.
A female started a Brexit discussion and whilst one liners, the vast majority seemed to want Brexit even more.
Patrick Smyth providing background about why the EU27 have acted the way they did this week;
Pat Leahy on the mood music;
Diarmaid Ferriter highlighting the historical parallels with 1921;
Cliff Taylor on the problems for the border;
Ruadhán Mac Cormaic on the arguments/debates we have about Brexit on CL;
Gerry Moriarty on the DUP;
Today's editorial;
A couple of interesting comments from the letters page; and
Then, there's Fintan O'Toole (from behind the paywall).
You think Brexit is bad so far? This is the easy bit
Unless it escapes from this mess now, Britain will be locked into a decade of political crises
The political chaos in London has now created a zombie prime minister to go along with a zombie Brexit, a dead project that carries on in its own brainlessly destructive way. At this low point for British politics, it is almost impossible to remember a startling fact: this is the easy bit. The cacophonous discord created by the withdrawal agreement is just the overture to the mad opera of Brexit. Unless the UK gets itself out of this mess now, it will be set for at least a decade of conflict, uncertainty and instability.
Even if Theresa May somehow manages to force her deal through by delaying it until the only other option is a catastrophic no-deal departure on March 29th, 2019, the tribulations will not be over. That highly unlikely achievement would not be the beginning of the end. It would be merely the end of the beginning. What would follow would be a world of trouble.
This has been the easy bit because the withdrawal agreement had to deal with just three things, helpfully summarised by Michel Barnier at the start of the process: people, money, Ireland. People means the mutual rights of EU and UK citizens currently living in each other’s territories. There was always going to be a deal precisely because the needs are mutual. Money meant the divorce bill that the UK would have to pay to meet the commitments it has made to the EU budget. It is an emotive question and there was some ridiculous shape-throwing from the likes of Boris (“go whistle”) Johnson. But, in the end, it’s just money – a figure was not that difficult to agree.
Evil Irish plot
And that left, of course, the dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone. In effect, the British had, in this phase of Brexit, one job to do: come up with a way to live up to its own guarantees that, whatever happens, there will be no reimposition of a physical infrastructure on the Border. It is important to bear in mind that these guarantees were not – as is now being widely suggested – forced on the British as part of an evil Irish plot to trap them in bondage to the EU.
Theresa May’s own words, in her speech in Florence in September 2017, were: “We will not accept any physical infrastructure at the Border.” It was Britain, not just Ireland and not just the EU, that insisted a way had to be found to avoid in all circumstances this unacceptable outcome.
It failed to do this, even after it agreed to the now-notorious backstop in December 2017. The all-party House of Commons committee on Brexit summed things up in its latest report, issued last weekend: “In December 2017, we said that we did not see how it would be possible to reconcile maintaining an open Border on the island of Ireland with leaving the single market and customs union, which would inevitably make the Northern Irish Border the UK’s customs and regulatory border with the European Union. Since then, we have seen no realistic, long-term proposals from the Government that would address this.”
May’s government had one job to do and it didn’t do it. That failure meant that the withdrawal agreement had to create a default in which the UK remains in a customs union with the EU and Northern Ireland remains effectively tied to the single market too. Contd....
Damnably difficult
Hence, as we’ve seen, all the Mayhem. The Border question is admittedly a damnably difficult one, but the fact is that this one thing alone has led to the open collapse of political authority in the UK. So how, then, will Britain deal with the huge array of difficult questions that will arise if the Brexit show somehow stays on the road? For there can be no illusion that if only May can pull off the near impossible trick of getting a withdrawal deal through parliament in January, all the rest of the way will be clear.
Consider the issue that, for May herself, is the single defining purpose of Brexit: control of immigration. She believes – and Jeremy Corbyn is in uncomfortable agreement with her on this – that ending freedom of movement is what Leave voters most desire and that if it is delivered, all the pain of Brexit will be justified. So where is the British government’s post-Brexit immigration policy?
On October 17th, 2017, the then home secretary, Amber Rudd, told the home affairs committee at Westminster: “We have our White Paper coming out on immigration by the end of the year [ie 2017].” On March 28th, 2018, Rudd told the same committee: “We have decided to wait until the migration advisory committee reports in its entirety in September this year to go forward with the policy and the White Paper after that.” On July 10th, 2018, the current home secretary, Sajid Javid, told the committee: “The timeframe that we set out… is a White Paper in the autumn followed by an immigration Bill early next year.” On December 2nd, 2018, Javid told the BBC, “it’s very unlikely to be published before the vote” on the withdrawal treaty.
Simplistic promises
Could it be that the White Paper on immigration has not been published because the simplistic promises that were made as part of the pitch for Brexit cannot be fulfilled? It is extremely difficult to reconcile the needs of businesses and the NHS, the desire of non-European ethnic communities for more immigration from their countries of origin and the expectation of many Leave voters that immigration would simply cease after Brexit. As rhetoric meets reality, tensions will surely rise.
But the biggest problems will come if and when the British and the EU start to negotiate their future relationship. They have a political declaration but it is much thinner than anyone expected it to be even a year ago. Once those negotiations start, the British may become nostalgic for the good old days when there was only the Irish backstop to give them migraines.
Instead of one big issue, they will have to deal with trade in goods and services; foreign policy, security and policing co-ordination; participation in EU agencies; agriculture; fisheries; data protection; labour mobility and the mutual recognition of professional qualifications; broadcasting; intellectual property; public procurement; consumer safety and standards; aviation; freight; energy; medicines; and scientific co-operation. And instead of dealing with the EU 27 as a bloc, they will have to face 27 countries, each with a veto and each with its own particular interests to defend. All of his – bear in mind – while also trying to construct a trade deal with, for example, Donald Trump.
Extension
And by July 2020, Britain will have to decide whether it wishes to ask for an extension of the transition period or accept the implementation of the backstop. The first will involve more payments to the EU and a longer period of rule-taking – cue explosions of outrage. The second is already imprinted in political consciousness as a disaster. So more political chaos. And in principle this could be repeated annually as the same choice returns until a final settlement is reached.
This, remember, is the benign scenario, in which the withdrawal agreement somehow passes through Westminster. The alternative – no deal – is much, much worse. Brexit is not leading Britain through the current political desert to a land of milk and honey, but through one desert into another. The only rational course of action is to stop the caravan while there is still time.
Yes it has been derided as project fear so far, but the word 'fear' is there for a reason,
FWIW. I don’t think Labour will bring a vote of no confidence forward. I’m convinced they would lose it under any circumstance and won’t risk it. Once the deal is defeated in the HoC I think they will throw their weight behind a second referendum.
Corbyn will be desperately trying to avoid this option because that opens up the possibility of remain and we all know he’s just as keen to leave as JRM
And the border between Lee and those feckers from Blackheath and Grove Park.
NB I think your attitude has mellowed somewhat and I'm genuinely not wishing to start a row, because I'm beyond all that.
As I have said before, anything can happen. When we first started discussing what would happen next with the Brexit bill who foresaw the pulling of it at the last moment followed by a Tory no-confidence vote. Who predicted May lurching around the EU desperately looking (in vain) for support.
I also think that Labour would lose a no-confidence vote, unless the ERG got behind them which is why I speculate about possibilities. Also why do you think Corbyn is as keen to leave as JRM? I don't think that can be supported by any evidence other than by what people choose to believe. Corbyn has said that he voted REMAIN (edit: freudian slip there) and would do so again, he leads a parliamentary party which is 98% remain and probably 70% of its voters are remain too. He might well be crap on Brexit but he does not have the same wishes as Mogg as to its outcome.
Do you think people are maybe becoming Brexiters because of the way they see the EU 27 acting ? Sheer bloodymindedness by the British ?
I saved up and moved out of my parents council house age 25, to start a new life free to do as I wish.
This is my personal main concern. I don't see why they should have to rent (pay someone else's mortgage) or live with their parents indefinitely.
But of course on closer examination I concluded that we have had that in our gift for decades and have done nothing about it and have in fact removed all those things during austerity (don't start me on 'prevention'. It is rather like the 'reduce immigration' argument in the sense that we already had that in power to do, but didn't.
“House prices are too high so we should tank our economy” is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve heard in favour of Brexit TBH.
It's us that can't make our mind up and keep chopping and changing.
I wonder what it is exactly that the EU is supposed to have done wrong/better.
Off to The Valley now.
Are you still moving by the way?