Incredible that the opposition is actually falling behind bearing in mind how bad the Government has been. Sad reflection on the political paucity of the UK.
I'm always an Andrew Rawnsley fan but this is a blockbuster. One sample
The most deserved losers are the Brexit ultras. They finally launched their leadership coup and failed miserably. Without a plausible plan or a credible leader, these are the men who put the ass into assassin. After all their prating about “taking back control”, they couldn’t even organise the removal of a mortally wounded prime minister. The Brexit fanatics have always been a minority of a minority and now no one can be in any doubt about that. And this same gang claim they could negotiate a superior agreement with the EU or handle a no-deal Brexit in 100 days that are left? Oh, please. Yet there was no humility in defeat from the ultras. It was with a poisonous lack of grace that they continued to demand Mrs May’s resignation even after she had prevailed in the confidence vote that they forced upon their party. You are entitled to belly laugh the next time that anyone tries to commend Jacob Rees-Mogg as a courteous gentleman. The mask of phoney civility slipped when this serpent in a double-breasted suit continued to hiss for Mrs May’s head after his coup had failed.
He also introduced me to a new word in describing the faction led by Jeremy Hunt. "Groupuscule"
"I'm far from convinced that this thread reflects the overall feeling of the British public. You also need to bear in mind that a number of the most frequent posters on this thread live abroad and most of the pro Brexit posters that have participated in this thread, no longer do so."
the clear implication of that is that the thread is not representative, because people who live abroad are biasing the overall thrust of it. (i.e.they are pro Remain) I have pointed out that only three can be easily identified as fitting that template, one of them's me, so at 33% of the total of course I'm going to be pissed off. You have also ignored the fact - I repeat, fact - that other Lifers on this thread that live abroad can be identified as Brexiteers. When you speak about France, who is CL's most high -profile French resident?
You wrote
"I'm surprised some posters seem concerned at having to pay £7 every 3 years and yet haven't voiced concerns, that young people in the London area have little chance of owning their own home before 35/40, unless they earn a significant sum or receive financial assistance from their family."
That too is a snarky comment because you imply 'some posters" (again including me) have no sense of proportion, that they completely ignore the big issues of the day. It's unjustified in itself and I wanted to remind you and this thread that I have several times listed what I think are the big political issues facing the UK no one has seriously taken issue with them, and nobody has been able to point out how Brexiting is the solution to them. Should I and others list them each time we discuss another new Brexit related development?
The appalling cost of housing and the skew in that cost across the UK is one of those issues on my list. Congratulations on selling your mum-in-law's house at the top of the market. We did much the same with my Mum's house. So what? Does that as you seem to imply, make us clever? Personally I'd much rather my Mum was still around this Christmas, even if maybe £50k has come off the value of the house since she passed away 16 months ago. My point about your maths is that I would expect you to be able to recognise the monstrous gap between the rise in house prices in London/SE and the rise in earnings over 20-25 years. As a result, for my 26 year old nephew to have the housing choices I had when I was at his age, then based on 1996 as a benchmark year in my personal example, Brexit would need to induce a price fall of 77%. I think it is reckless for people who ought to know better - and indeed I count you as one of them due to your personal success playing the markets - to advocate Brexit in the hope of such an effect.
Dear Prague I was not having a pop at you personally as I've already stated. There has been too much of that on this thread and I'm bored with it and have no wish to add to it.
I was simply asserting that the mood of this thread, whilst it may have persuaded me to change my mind, does not appear to reflect the sentiment in the UK.
I was quite surprised at what I have heard this week, on various political programmes and on social media. The attitude I'm seeing appears to be hardening towards Brexit.
I'll leave it there because I'd rather posters talked about Brexit than me. Thanks.
PS Grapevine49 has lived in France for 20+ years and is now planning to move back to the UK because of Brexit. (I believe he said, apologies if wrong Grapevine).
Travel insurance should always be taken out as EHIC doesn't cover all costs, such as loss, theft or damage to personal belongings and travel insurance also usually covers curtailment, cancellation and a ton of other benefits.
You're a fool to travel without it.
Correct. But the additional cost of €7 for no additional perceivable benefit is borderline theft.
You mentioned the magic word "border" which Brexiteers cannot deal with. No deal means no Irish border, which means EU members of WTO will veto any trade deal we try to make until Boris invents X-ray CCTV cameras that csn identify any goods crossing the border without a trusted trader stamp.
Right, so let’s just revoke Article 50 now that we know we can.
Exept Labour"s six tests were written by the barrister Sir Keir Starmer, not some trotsky arrm of the Labour Party or SWP.
Except the article doesn't focus on the six tests which no doubt Starmer wrote and got approved without any input or sign off from anyone else in the party, especially not the party leader.
I thought this passage was damning
"Beyond the practicalities lies the morality. To wish suffering on people who are weaker and poorer than you is disgusting and it is no less disgusting when Jeremy Corbyn rather than Jacob Rees-Mogg is hoping that the misery of others will advance his political programme.
There are many reasons why Labour has no coherent Brexit policy to offer parliament and continues to pretend that Britain can somehow retain the benefits of EU membership while leaving the EU. It is as worried as the Tories are about alienating voters and seeing its party fall apart. Yet the naivety of Labour supporters who refuse to see the critical influence of far-left ideology on Labour politics remains breathtaking.
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them,” said Maya Angelou. The dominant factions of the British far left have shown you since the 1970s that they are anti-European. All far-leftists have shown you since 1917 they believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, that catastrophe should be welcomed as the midwife of socialist revolution. Why not believe them?"
Cohen was very prededent on the current situation with his 2007 book What's Left?
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Estonia is good went there as a little side trip whilst I was in Finland (which wasn’t so good!).
Does anyone think the EU itself will undergo any changes of membership soon? For all the talk around the time of the Brexit vote it seems very unlikely now that anyone else will leave, especially after seeing the problems it has caused for the UK. I guess the next phase of expansion would include Montenegro and possibly Serbia and/or Bosnia but they seem far from ready.
The new Italian government, despite being billed as anti-EU show no signs of being interested in leaving and despite some people linking the unrest in France to the EU, it's about much more than that. The various parties here in Spain cover all sorts of ideologies but none ever contemplate being out of the EU, even the new right-wing populists Vox who won a few seats in the Andalucian election recently. Generally other European citizens seem more inclined to hold their own government to account more than blame the EU for everything.
As the EU clearly shows no signs of going away, with or without the UK, how do people on here see it growing or changing in the future?
May's reluctance to hold a 2nd referendum is probably also due to the following. The last two times the Tories asked the public (referendum & election) they never got the result they expected.
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Travel insurance should always be taken out as EHIC doesn't cover all costs, such as loss, theft or damage to personal belongings and travel insurance also usually covers curtailment, cancellation and a ton of other benefits.
You're a fool to travel without it.
Correct. But the additional cost of €7 for no additional perceivable benefit is borderline theft.
You mentioned the magic word "border" which Brexiteers cannot deal with. No deal means no Irish border, which means EU members of WTO will veto any trade deal we try to make until Boris invents X-ray CCTV cameras that csn identify any goods crossing the border without a trusted trader stamp.
Right, so let’s just revoke Article 50 now that we know we can.
Exept Labour"s six tests were written by the barrister Sir Keir Starmer, not some trotsky arrm of the Labour Party or SWP.
Except the article doesn't focus on the six tests which no doubt Starmer wrote and got approved without any input or sign off from anyone else in the party, especially not the party leader.
I thought this passage was damning
"Beyond the practicalities lies the morality. To wish suffering on people who are weaker and poorer than you is disgusting and it is no less disgusting when Jeremy Corbyn rather than Jacob Rees-Mogg is hoping that the misery of others will advance his political programme.
There are many reasons why Labour has no coherent Brexit policy to offer parliament and continues to pretend that Britain can somehow retain the benefits of EU membership while leaving the EU. It is as worried as the Tories are about alienating voters and seeing its party fall apart. Yet the naivety of Labour supporters who refuse to see the critical influence of far-left ideology on Labour politics remains breathtaking.
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them,” said Maya Angelou. The dominant factions of the British far left have shown you since the 1970s that they are anti-European. All far-leftists have shown you since 1917 they believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, that catastrophe should be welcomed as the midwife of socialist revolution. Why not believe them?"
Cohen was very prededent on the current situation with his 2007 book What's Left?
So I undermine the fabric of his article and you counter by quoting the rest of his article. Can we have some facts not recycled opinions from a Blair critic who later became an acolyte? Again the Labour policy on Brexit was written by barrister Sir Keir Starmer, not Corbyn.
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Ooh we have a new leader...
Doh! Ok, maybe I can beat Prague on wider Europe (40 visited) or the world (63).
I don't understand these economic forcasters experts. If could predict the future of the economy accuratly, I'd be on a massive yacht with several super models and a bag of toot, not getting up early on a Sunday to discuss brexit on the telly.
You have to accept that forecasts are forecasts and can turn out wrong. But they are informed and are the sensible thing to do. I forecast based on what I have seen that Charlton will get more points from now on than Wimbledon. I could be wrong but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it!
Predicting we will come above Wimbledon is hardly an expert prediction. Experts should have expertise, having to get up earlyon a Sunday is hardly the sign of an expert.
Wasn’t sure whether I should be bothered to respond to your nonsense at all but hey ho. Every country, business organisation and in fact any organisation uses the available data to help predict what’s likely to happen. There are armies of economists and statisticians employed by governments and business all over the world. To suggest that these experts should be dismissed is classic leave voting bollocks.
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Ooh we have a new leader...
Doh! Ok, maybe I can beat Prague on wider Europe (40 visited) or the world (63).
Impressive total. I assume you're an airline captain...
Does anyone think the EU itself will undergo any changes of membership soon? For all the talk around the time of the Brexit vote it seems very unlikely now that anyone else will leave, especially after seeing the problems it has caused for the UK. I guess the next phase of expansion would include Montenegro and possibly Serbia and/or Bosnia but they seem far from ready.
The new Italian government, despite being billed as anti-EU show no signs of being interested in leaving and despite some people linking the unrest in France to the EU, it's about much more than that. The various parties here in Spain cover all sorts of ideologies but none ever contemplate being out of the EU, even the new right-wing populists Vox who won a few seats in the Andalucian election recently. Generally other European citizens seem more inclined to hold their own government to account more than blame the EU for everything.
As the EU clearly shows no signs of going away, with or without the UK, how do people on here see it growing or changing in the future?
The former Yugoslavia countries are all in the accession queue and that will completely change the shape of the EU map should they become successful - there will then be a land route between Italy and Greece. No idea on their progress but 2022 or 2023 was suggested last time I looked.
Despite the propaganda, Italy's struggle is actually with the bond markets and not the EU. For if the coalition tries to run the deficit too high then Italian Govies will be affected and their banks will suffer badly through increased costs as well as losses on the bonds which have the potential to force them into restructure.
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Ooh we have a new leader...
Doh! Ok, maybe I can beat Prague on wider Europe (40 visited) or the world (63).
Impressive total. I assume you're an airline captain...
:-)
No, a bog standard teacher. I tell my pupils not to just look at the world through a screen but to go out and explore it.
Travel insurance should always be taken out as EHIC doesn't cover all costs, such as loss, theft or damage to personal belongings and travel insurance also usually covers curtailment, cancellation and a ton of other benefits.
You're a fool to travel without it.
Correct. But the additional cost of €7 for no additional perceivable benefit is borderline theft.
You mentioned the magic word "border" which Brexiteers cannot deal with. No deal means no Irish border, which means EU members of WTO will veto any trade deal we try to make until Boris invents X-ray CCTV cameras that csn identify any goods crossing the border without a trusted trader stamp.
Right, so let’s just revoke Article 50 now that we know we can.
Exept Labour"s six tests were written by the barrister Sir Keir Starmer, not some trotsky arrm of the Labour Party or SWP.
Except the article doesn't focus on the six tests which no doubt Starmer wrote and got approved without any input or sign off from anyone else in the party, especially not the party leader.
I thought this passage was damning
"Beyond the practicalities lies the morality. To wish suffering on people who are weaker and poorer than you is disgusting and it is no less disgusting when Jeremy Corbyn rather than Jacob Rees-Mogg is hoping that the misery of others will advance his political programme.
There are many reasons why Labour has no coherent Brexit policy to offer parliament and continues to pretend that Britain can somehow retain the benefits of EU membership while leaving the EU. It is as worried as the Tories are about alienating voters and seeing its party fall apart. Yet the naivety of Labour supporters who refuse to see the critical influence of far-left ideology on Labour politics remains breathtaking.
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them,” said Maya Angelou. The dominant factions of the British far left have shown you since the 1970s that they are anti-European. All far-leftists have shown you since 1917 they believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, that catastrophe should be welcomed as the midwife of socialist revolution. Why not believe them?"
Cohen was very prededent on the current situation with his 2007 book What's Left?
So I undermine the fabric of his article and you counter by quoting the rest of his article. Can we have some facts not recycled opinions from a Blair critic who later became an acolyte? Again the Labour policy on Brexit was written by barrister Sir Keir Starmer, not Corbyn.
For some it is important to blame Brexit on Corbyn! That's the thrust of the article and that Labour with just 255 MPs should somehow stop May and her Brexit WA in its tracks. That the referendum was put in place by Cameron and Osborne is irrelevant to the author and the person who publishes the link. That the main protagonists for Leave were Farage, Banks and a host of Tory MPs matters not! And the fact that the Prime Minister refuses to allow Parliament to vote on the WA is all clearly part of a Trotskyist plot to ferment revolutionary socialism!
Delusional!
So why attempt to blame shift Brexit onto Labour. Perhaps to advance their centrist agenda and restore the cozy pre crash arrangements. Those same arrangements which brought us to this point. "My enemy's enemy is my friend" so they want May to prosper just to prove that their views on Corbyn are correct. Now that's ironic!
Splitting Labour has been a lifelong ambition of this constituency - How ironic that they wish damage on much of the country (should May succeed) just to ensure that Corbyn retires wounded. Some might call that pathological?
Such a base emotional approach to what is a complicated and shifting landscape is at best useless and at worst a complete distraction from reality and rational discourse. Any pseudo intelectual can gather some quotes from the web to supposedly prove their perspective but today's challenges are somewhat more complicated.
Let us be clear that the Labour NEC / Shadow Cabinet can shift to supporting and prioritising a people's vote at any point once the WA is defeated. And that the balance is actually held by the 25 Tory remainers - these are the MPs who will decide what happens after the WA fails in 2019.
The mapping exercise is believed to have identified almost 300 crossing points into Northern Ireland across the 310-mile frontier, including many routes that had not been officially recorded before, according to informed sources.
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Ooh we have a new leader...
Doh! Ok, maybe I can beat Prague on wider Europe (40 visited) or the world (63).
The world, almost certainly. I sort of retreated from long distance travel. I'll have a think about rest of Europe, but I don't think i can make 40. BTW, where does "Europe" end for you? Turkey counts I guess, but not Russia?
Edit: Confession. I forgot one other EU country I haven't visited, and this is very embarrassing. It is Ireland :-)
Re other European countries I can only add Norway Switzerland, Serbia and Turkey. I think, though, that the night sleeper from Zurich to Prague passes through Liechtenstein - thats what my phone told me anyway, so I'll take that:-)
are there really as many as 40 European countries?
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Apropos of the visa thing coming in, and for no other reason than I was bored, has anyone on here visited the entire 27 other countries in the EU?
After a quick count up I reckon I've visited 14 of them plus Norway and Switzerland.
Been to 18 of the non UK 27, plus Iceland, Bosnia and Russia on the fringe of the EU. Also Monaco - does that count?
I’ve been to 18 too, missing some of the smaller ones.
I am only missing Estonia (really want to go) and Malta (really want us to kick them out, gangster run, money-laundering, journalist-murdering useless piece of rock)
Ooh we have a new leader...
Doh! Ok, maybe I can beat Prague on wider Europe (40 visited) or the world (63).
The world, almost certainly. I sort of retreated from long distance travel. I'll have a think about rest of Europe, but I don't think i can make 40. BTW, where does "Europe" end for you? Turkey counts I guess, but not Russia?
Edit: Confession. I forgot one other EU country I haven't visited, and this is very embarrassing. It is Ireland :-)
Re other European countries I can only add Norway Switzerland, Serbia and Turkey. I think, though, that the night sleeper from Zurich to Prague passes through Liechtenstein - thats what my phone told me anyway, so I'll take that:-)
are there really as many as 40 European countries?
I’m sure there are 50 off UEFA affiliated teams, although some (Kazakhstan and Israel off the top of my head) probably don’t really count as Europe.
Travel insurance should always be taken out as EHIC doesn't cover all costs, such as loss, theft or damage to personal belongings and travel insurance also usually covers curtailment, cancellation and a ton of other benefits.
You're a fool to travel without it.
Correct. But the additional cost of €7 for no additional perceivable benefit is borderline theft.
You mentioned the magic word "border" which Brexiteers cannot deal with. No deal means no Irish border, which means EU members of WTO will veto any trade deal we try to make until Boris invents X-ray CCTV cameras that csn identify any goods crossing the border without a trusted trader stamp.
Right, so let’s just revoke Article 50 now that we know we can.
Exept Labour"s six tests were written by the barrister Sir Keir Starmer, not some trotsky arrm of the Labour Party or SWP.
Except the article doesn't focus on the six tests which no doubt Starmer wrote and got approved without any input or sign off from anyone else in the party, especially not the party leader.
I thought this passage was damning
"Beyond the practicalities lies the morality. To wish suffering on people who are weaker and poorer than you is disgusting and it is no less disgusting when Jeremy Corbyn rather than Jacob Rees-Mogg is hoping that the misery of others will advance his political programme.
There are many reasons why Labour has no coherent Brexit policy to offer parliament and continues to pretend that Britain can somehow retain the benefits of EU membership while leaving the EU. It is as worried as the Tories are about alienating voters and seeing its party fall apart. Yet the naivety of Labour supporters who refuse to see the critical influence of far-left ideology on Labour politics remains breathtaking.
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them,” said Maya Angelou. The dominant factions of the British far left have shown you since the 1970s that they are anti-European. All far-leftists have shown you since 1917 they believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, that catastrophe should be welcomed as the midwife of socialist revolution. Why not believe them?"
Cohen was very prededent on the current situation with his 2007 book What's Left?
So I undermine the fabric of his article and you counter by quoting the rest of his article. Can we have some facts not recycled opinions from a Blair critic who later became an acolyte? Again the Labour policy on Brexit was written by barrister Sir Keir Starmer, not Corbyn.
You undermined nothing. Are the six tests even mentioned in the article?
Laughable that Starmer wrote them all by himself and no one else, especially Jeremy, had any say or input. What a democratic party.
But of course, not being able to refute what he says you resort to "blairitre" as you and other corbynistas nearly always do.
Comments
I'm always an Andrew Rawnsley fan but this is a blockbuster. One sample
The most deserved losers are the Brexit ultras. They finally launched their leadership coup and failed miserably. Without a plausible plan or a credible leader, these are the men who put the ass into assassin. After all their prating about “taking back control”, they couldn’t even organise the removal of a mortally wounded prime minister. The Brexit fanatics have always been a minority of a minority and now no one can be in any doubt about that. And this same gang claim they could negotiate a superior agreement with the EU or handle a no-deal Brexit in 100 days that are left? Oh, please. Yet there was no humility in defeat from the ultras. It was with a poisonous lack of grace that they continued to demand Mrs May’s resignation even after she had prevailed in the confidence vote that they forced upon their party. You are entitled to belly laugh the next time that anyone tries to commend Jacob Rees-Mogg as a courteous gentleman. The mask of phoney civility slipped when this serpent in a double-breasted suit continued to hiss for Mrs May’s head after his coup had failed.
He also introduced me to a new word in describing the faction led by Jeremy Hunt. "Groupuscule"
There has been too much of that on this thread and I'm bored with it and have no wish to add to it.
I was simply asserting that the mood of this thread, whilst it may have persuaded me to change my mind, does not appear to reflect the sentiment in the UK.
I was quite surprised at what I have heard this week, on various political programmes and on social media.
The attitude I'm seeing appears to be hardening towards Brexit.
I'll leave it there because I'd rather posters talked about Brexit than me. Thanks.
PS Grapevine49 has lived in France for 20+ years and is now planning to move back to the UK because of Brexit.
(I believe he said, apologies if wrong Grapevine).
I thought this passage was damning
"Beyond the practicalities lies the morality. To wish suffering on people who are weaker and poorer than you is disgusting and it is no less disgusting when Jeremy Corbyn rather than Jacob Rees-Mogg is hoping that the misery of others will advance his political programme.
There are many reasons why Labour has no coherent Brexit policy to offer parliament and continues to pretend that Britain can somehow retain the benefits of EU membership while leaving the EU. It is as worried as the Tories are about alienating voters and seeing its party fall apart. Yet the naivety of Labour supporters who refuse to see the critical influence of far-left ideology on Labour politics remains breathtaking.
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them,” said Maya Angelou. The dominant factions of the British far left have shown you since the 1970s that they are anti-European. All far-leftists have shown you since 1917 they believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, that catastrophe should be welcomed as the midwife of socialist revolution. Why not believe them?"
Cohen was very prededent on the current situation with his 2007 book What's Left?
Crazy how close remain vs no deal is in the polling. Remainers wanting a second referendum might be minded to be careful what they wish for.
The new Italian government, despite being billed as anti-EU show no signs of being interested in leaving and despite some people linking the unrest in France to the EU, it's about much more than that. The various parties here in Spain cover all sorts of ideologies but none ever contemplate being out of the EU, even the new right-wing populists Vox who won a few seats in the Andalucian election recently. Generally other European citizens seem more inclined to hold their own government to account more than blame the EU for everything.
As the EU clearly shows no signs of going away, with or without the UK, how do people on here see it growing or changing in the future?
The last two times the Tories asked the public (referendum & election) they never got the result they expected.
:-)
Despite the propaganda, Italy's struggle is actually with the bond markets and not the EU. For if the coalition tries to run the deficit too high then Italian Govies will be affected and their banks will suffer badly through increased costs as well as losses on the bonds which have the potential to force them into restructure.
Delusional!
So why attempt to blame shift Brexit onto Labour. Perhaps to advance their centrist agenda and restore the cozy pre crash arrangements. Those same arrangements which brought us to this point. "My enemy's enemy is my friend" so they want May to prosper just to prove that their views on Corbyn are correct. Now that's ironic!
Splitting Labour has been a lifelong ambition of this constituency - How ironic that they wish damage on much of the country (should May succeed) just to ensure that Corbyn retires wounded. Some might call that pathological?
Such a base emotional approach to what is a complicated and shifting landscape is at best useless and at worst a complete distraction from reality and rational discourse. Any pseudo intelectual can gather some quotes from the web to supposedly prove their perspective but today's challenges are somewhat more complicated.
Let us be clear that the Labour NEC / Shadow Cabinet can shift to supporting and prioritising a people's vote at any point once the WA is defeated. And that the balance is actually held by the 25 Tory remainers - these are the MPs who will decide what happens after the WA fails in 2019.
The mapping exercise is believed to have identified almost 300 crossing points into Northern Ireland across the 310-mile frontier, including many routes that had not been officially recorded before, according to informed sources.
Edit: Confession. I forgot one other EU country I haven't visited, and this is very embarrassing. It is Ireland :-)
Re other European countries I can only add Norway Switzerland, Serbia and Turkey. I think, though, that the night sleeper from Zurich to Prague passes through Liechtenstein - thats what my phone told me anyway, so I'll take that:-)
are there really as many as 40 European countries?
Laughable that Starmer wrote them all by himself and no one else, especially Jeremy, had any say or input. What a democratic party.
But of course, not being able to refute what he says you resort to "blairitre" as you and other corbynistas nearly always do.
Just shows that what Cohen is saying is correct.
And this is the thing him and Milne will love
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/16/jaguar-land-rover-to-axe-up-to-5000-jobs?CMP=share_btn_fb&fbclid=IwAR0P9e5AgZxTwNjb6h0wFI7FA5jpcqKdqiQTOCgRKX4V-akoL5Ilw2Zkkjg