Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
I've been quite upfront about my reasons. I run a business and for the most part I'm dealing with countries who are outside of the EU and have no trade deal with the EU.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
Selfish I agree. Let's hope your family don't live in the West Country and that the countries you have trade deals with are not such as Japan who have veto'd any further investment in our country, who they previously saw as "the gateway to Europe".
"A majority of the British public – including one in five Leave voters – believe the UK would be better off if the country remained in the European Single Market, a major national Brexit survey has found..."
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
I've been quite upfront about my reasons. I run a business and for the most part I'm dealing with countries who are outside of the EU and have no trade deal with the EU.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
I have a friend whose business deals extensively with countries in and outside of the EU. He thinks leaving is a very bad idea.
Maybe for his business it is. For mine it isn't.
But for the vast majority of businesses in the UK, ones providing millions of jobs, leaving the EU is a very bad idea!
I don't care about why others voted the way they did. I have always been honest and said I voted my way because it's best for me and my family. If it's not so good for others that's not my fault nor is it my problem.
It is never going to be good for everyone so you make a choice for your own personal reasons don't you? Or should I have voted in such a way that others are better off and I am worse off?
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
If, and it is a fairly big if, a transitional arrangement and exit deal can be agreed, and this can lead to a mutually beneficial and friendly future trading relationship, and if this can be achieved without doing anything to damage the fabric of society (which, in an era if fairly febrile political "debate", may be difficult), you might be right...
But such an outcome would require levels of consensus that I have not seen to date.
I can only really speak with any degree of certainty from my own perspective and about those that I know, but I get a very strong feeling that Brexit is not only damaging and divisive in itself, it also acts as something of a lightning rod, drawing in charged political emotions, so that the same stance on Brexit, taken in Eltham, Edinburgh or Enniskillen, can reflect other political (potentially inimical to the UK) divisions, given new life by the Brexit vote and the Government's approach.
Personally I think it will all blow over once the event has past. It's worth pointing out however that no side will be truly happy. Because of the close vote a clean or hard Brexit will not happen. It's almost a given that we will have one foot in and one foot out and be worse off as a result, possibly even worse off than a hard Brexit though that is a purely speculative statement on my part.
The problem is that nobody thought to discuss what type of Brexit the voters wanted, with the voters, and as I said previously a straight in or out was always going to be a bad idea. But let's remember this idea came about because of pressure put upon Cameron by right wing Tories in the wake of UKIP's rise in popularity.
Brexit was never meant to happen. The whole referendum thing was just a way of Conservatives keeping or winning back voters who's heads had been turned by Farage and Co. If some proper thought had been put into it we might have actually found out what kind of relationship most people want with Europe.
As it stands there is bickering and arguing inter party and across party. If any of these politicians involved think this is going to help get a good deal then they are deluded.
This is a mess made by every party but as usual instead of working together in the public interest to come up with a proper pla and negotiating pisition, they resort to complaining and finger pointing. This is something that parliament as a whole should've worked together on, but once again parliament has failed the people.
Point of order old bean. As you state the referendum was called by the Conservatives - it is categorically NOT a mess made by every party.
So I'm guessing you agree with the statement 'your mess, you sort it out'? Or do you think that a cross party solution would have been a far better option?
I think that answering my statement with an honest response would have reflected on you better than trying to deflect the truth by straying into another discussion completely. It is NOT a mess made by every party.
In my view there is a collective responsibility. That is honestly how I feel
many thanks @Red_in_SE8 for those two links. In one it is clear that FDI from Japan is in stasis until we resolve the outcome. And the other reminds us what many have seen for a while: The Government has to make a decision about the Customs Union sooner or later and that will create a rift which might take them out. This is why nothing has actually happened for nigh on two years.
Those who state that "leave means leave" are welcome to their views. The fact is that they are in a minority and this will become very apparent in 12 months time when the option to remain / abort Brexit disappears.
We will be in a very different place once we leave and all the simplistic one liners become irrelevant as the nation contemplates what next. A customs union and a transition to a free trade agreement on goods is the very least the UK requires to avoid disruption and a recession.
"A majority of the British public – including one in five Leave voters – believe the UK would be better off if the country remained in the European Single Market, a major national Brexit survey has found..."
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
I've been quite upfront about my reasons. I run a business and for the most part I'm dealing with countries who are outside of the EU and have no trade deal with the EU.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
Selfish I agree. Let's hope your family don't live in the West Country and that the countries you have trade deals with are not such as Japan who have veto'd any further investment in our country, who they previously saw as "the gateway to Europe".
If all goes to plan my family will be fine, you don't need to concern yourself, but thanks anyway.
"A majority of the British public – including one in five Leave voters – believe the UK would be better off if the country remained in the European Single Market, a major national Brexit survey has found..."
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
I've been quite upfront about my reasons. I run a business and for the most part I'm dealing with countries who are outside of the EU and have no trade deal with the EU.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
Selfish I agree. Let's hope your family don't live in the West Country and that the countries you have trade deals with are not such as Japan who have veto'd any further investment in our country, who they previously saw as "the gateway to Europe".
If all goes to plan my family will be fine, you don't need to concern yourself, but thanks anyway.
You're probably right but they did ask 220,000 people.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
I've been quite upfront about my reasons. I run a business and for the most part I'm dealing with countries who are outside of the EU and have no trade deal with the EU.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
I have a friend whose business deals extensively with countries in and outside of the EU. He thinks leaving is a very bad idea.
Maybe for his business it is. For mine it isn't.
But for the vast majority of businesses in the UK, ones providing millions of jobs, leaving the EU is a very bad idea!
I don't care about why others voted the way they did. I have always been honest and said I voted my way because it's best for me and my family. If it's not so good for others that's not my fault nor is it my problem.
It is never going to be good for everyone so you make a choice for your own personal reasons don't you? Or should I have voted in such a way that others are better off and I am worse off?
Absolutely spot on, wait till the next general election and ask them how they would like you to vote...apparently their very democratic...
West Country Addick said: "In my view there is a collective responsibility. That is honestly how I feel"
Then like a lot of Brexit voters, faced with facts, you pretend they don't exist. How can any political party that did not call a referendum, be to blame for that referendum?
The answer is that they cannot. How you "feel" is wrong. The facts are that the Lib Dems, the Labour party, the Greens, the Scottish Nationalists and the Raving Loonies are NOT to blame. It is the Tories and the Tories alone who have caused this mess, only they called a referendum, no-one else, and no amount of justifying it in your mind is going to change that.
You have the courage to tell us that your vote was purely a selfish one, and I applaud you for that - very few Brexiters have been honest in coming forward with their reasons for voting that way, and most of them have a very different reason from yours... Have the courage to blame the party you appear to support, rather than others that had nothing to do with it. I for one would respect you for that, too.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
I read this post with sadness, rather than anger, since it is obvious that you don't mean it in any bad way. Nevertheless it is most regrettable, IMO.
What you tell us about your personal life is a terrible thing to consider. Most of us would feel lucky if nothing so terrible were to befall us. However you don't know that it didn't, in respect of any given poster.
The difference between you and @seth plum in respect of the topic in this thread, is that Seth, and I do know him personally, cares about the wider world around him. Passionately. Sit next to him at The Valley, and you will know. It's worse than sitting next to the drummer.
Your argument seems to be that if something equally terrible happened to us who care the most about this issue, we would somehow forget Brexit. Or change our minds. Rationally, why would that happen? Personal tragedies generally don't influence overall political perspective. I can see they might if one lost a friend or relative in Grenfell, and previously were a staunch Tory. But some people just care more, and believe more than you do in the political process. Were you more politically engaged, before your tragedy? From your subsequent comments, that would seem to be unlikely.
This is a thread about politics. Seth joins other threads and argues with equal passion, be it about yesterday's game or vegan food. It's the way he is.
But if he needed another reason to be passionate about Brexit and associated issues, it might be the fact his is a mixed race family. As with my sister in the same situation, it may make him uneasy about the way the country is going, because at the back of their minds, they might worry that one day, it might trigger an event which affects them all too personally too.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
I read this post with sadness, rather than anger, since it is obvious that you don't mean it in any bad way. Nevertheless it is most regrettable, IMO.
What you tell us about your personal life is a terrible thing to consider. Most of us would feel lucky if nothing so terrible were to befall us. However you don't know that it didn't, in respect of any given poster.
The difference between you and @seth plum in respect of the topic in this thread, is that Seth, and I do know him personally, cares about the wider world around him. Passionately. Sit next to him at The Valley, and you will know. It's worse than sitting next to the drummer.
Your argument seems to be that if something equally terrible happened to us who care the most about this issue, we would somehow forget Brexit. Or change our minds. Rationally, why would that happen? Personal tragedies generally don't influence overall political perspective. I can see they might if one lost a friend or relative in Grenfell, and previously were a staunch Tory. But some people just care more, and believe more than you do in the political process. Were you more politically engaged, before your tragedy? From your subsequent comments, that would seem to be unlikely.
This is a thread about politics. Seth joins other threads and argues with equal passion, be it about yesterday's game or vegan food. It's the way he is.
But if he needed another reason to be passionate about Brexit and associated issues, it might be the fact his is a mixed race family. As with my sister in the same situation, it may make him uneasy about the way the country is going, because at the back of their minds, they might worry that one day, it might trigger an event which affects them all too personally too.
The striking thing about the terrible way that the Windrush people have been treated has been the widespread sympathy it has generated. It shows just how far from the truth it is that Britain is a hotbed of racism (not including the Home Office in that by the way).
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
I read this post with sadness, rather than anger, since it is obvious that you don't mean it in any bad way. Nevertheless it is most regrettable, IMO.
What you tell us about your personal life is a terrible thing to consider. Most of us would feel lucky if nothing so terrible were to befall us. However you don't know that it didn't, in respect of any given poster.
The difference between you and @seth plum in respect of the topic in this thread, is that Seth, and I do know him personally, cares about the wider world around him. Passionately. Sit next to him at The Valley, and you will know. It's worse than sitting next to the drummer.
Your argument seems to be that if something equally terrible happened to us who care the most about this issue, we would somehow forget Brexit. Or change our minds. Rationally, why would that happen? Personal tragedies generally don't influence overall political perspective. I can see they might if one lost a friend or relative in Grenfell, and previously were a staunch Tory. But some people just care more, and believe more than you do in the political process. Were you more politically engaged, before your tragedy? From your subsequent comments, that would seem to be unlikely.
This is a thread about politics. Seth joins other threads and argues with equal passion, be it about yesterday's game or vegan food. It's the way he is.
But if he needed another reason to be passionate about Brexit and associated issues, it might be the fact his is a mixed race family. As with my sister in the same situation, it may make him uneasy about the way the country is going, because at the back of their minds, they might worry that one day, it might trigger an event which affects them all too personally too.
I think you just missed the point. I was merely highlighting that we as human beings have more of an inner strength than we know and there are actually a great many things that we can get over, should we have the will to do so. The reason I posted it is because of a particular moment of doom and gloom in one of Seth's posts and I was hoping to demonstrate that actually things are never as bad as they seem and even in the darkest times we can draw strength and carry on. Judging by Seth's response, he understood the sentiment, so I'm not sure why anybody else needed to get involved.
WCA nice to know you think your family will prosper despite Brexit though I'm struggling to imagine how. Inherited wealth? So why come on this forum and post almost entirely on this thread, in support of Brexit, based on the premise that "I'm alright Jack" when 90% of the rest of us will be fcukd?
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
I read this post with sadness, rather than anger, since it is obvious that you don't mean it in any bad way. Nevertheless it is most regrettable, IMO.
What you tell us about your personal life is a terrible thing to consider. Most of us would feel lucky if nothing so terrible were to befall us. However you don't know that it didn't, in respect of any given poster.
The difference between you and @seth plum in respect of the topic in this thread, is that Seth, and I do know him personally, cares about the wider world around him. Passionately. Sit next to him at The Valley, and you will know. It's worse than sitting next to the drummer.
Your argument seems to be that if something equally terrible happened to us who care the most about this issue, we would somehow forget Brexit. Or change our minds. Rationally, why would that happen? Personal tragedies generally don't influence overall political perspective. I can see they might if one lost a friend or relative in Grenfell, and previously were a staunch Tory. But some people just care more, and believe more than you do in the political process. Were you more politically engaged, before your tragedy? From your subsequent comments, that would seem to be unlikely.
This is a thread about politics. Seth joins other threads and argues with equal passion, be it about yesterday's game or vegan food. It's the way he is.
But if he needed another reason to be passionate about Brexit and associated issues, it might be the fact his is a mixed race family. As with my sister in the same situation, it may make him uneasy about the way the country is going, because at the back of their minds, they might worry that one day, it might trigger an event which affects them all too personally too.
The striking thing about the terrible way that the Windrush people have been treated has been the widespread sympathy it has generated. It shows just how far from the truth it is that Britain is a hotbed of racism (not including the Home Office in that by the way).
Good point. The thing is lots of people were against "immigration" and the Tories (and labour before them) were keen to act tough and say the right thing. This was fine so long as immigrants were just a faceless foreign peril, taking all the houses and jobs. Now they have been given a human face, people are suddenly horrified. I've no sympathy for the Tories, they need to stand by what they've done and say "well, you asked for it. Can't have it both ways"
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take .
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
I read this post with sadness, rather than anger, since it is obvious that you don't mean it in any bad way. Nevertheless it is most regrettable, IMO.
What you tell us about your personal life is a terrible thing to consider. Most of us would feel lucky if nothing so terrible were to befall us. However you don't know that it didn't, in respect of any given poster.
The difference between you and @seth plum in respect of the topic in this thread, is that Seth, and I do know him personally, cares about the wider world around him. Passionately. Sit next to him at The Valley, and you will know. It's worse than sitting next to the drummer.
Your argument seems to be that if something equally terrible happened to us who care the most about this issue, we would somehow forget Brexit. Or change our minds. Rationally, why would that happen? Personal tragedies generally don't influence overall political perspective. I can see they might if one lost a friend or relative in Grenfell, and previously were a staunch Tory. But some people just care more, and believe more than you do in the political process. Were you more politically engaged, before your tragedy? From your subsequent comments, that would seem to be unlikely.
This is a thread about politics. Seth joins other threads and argues with equal passion, be it about yesterday's game or vegan food. It's the way he is.
But if he needed another reason to be passionate about Brexit and associated issues, it might be the fact his is a mixed race family. As with my sister in the same situation, it may make him uneasy about the way the country is going, because at the back of their minds, they might worry that one day, it might trigger an event which affects them all too personally too.
I think you just missed the point. I was merely highlighting that we as human beings have more of an inner strength than we know and there are actually a great many things that we can get over, should we have the will to do so. The reason I posted it is because of a particular moment of doom and gloom in one of Seth's posts and I was hoping to demonstrate that actually things are never as bad as they seem and even in the darkest times we can draw strength and carry on. Judging by Seth's response, he understood the sentiment, so I'm not sure why anybody else needed to get involved.
People get involved because it's a message board. Whilst one can understand the plea from @PragueAddick one can also see that we have to move on from the referendum result. Commentators such as Martin Wolf and Owen Jones have suggested that we move on. And the reality is that it will be Parliament which decides issues such as the Customs Union and Single Market.
Not you and I. Nor will be those bleating their asinine slogans or seeking to interpret the referendum result to reflect their views. So we should be calm and await developments.
As it happens, there may well be a vote on Customs Union membership on Thursday after the Lords put in an amendment. Given that it is Labour policy to remain in the Customs Union and that there are at least 12 Tory rebels it's possible that we will have a decisive vote.
Great for the Irish border as one half of a solution but somewhat terminal for Theresa May when all the key decisions will be made by Corbyn, Heseltine and Clarke!
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
I read this post with sadness, rather than anger, since it is obvious that you don't mean it in any bad way. Nevertheless it is most regrettable, IMO.
What you tell us about your personal life is a terrible thing to consider. Most of us would feel lucky if nothing so terrible were to befall us. However you don't know that it didn't, in respect of any given poster.
The difference between you and @seth plum in respect of the topic in this thread, is that Seth, and I do know him personally, cares about the wider world around him. Passionately. Sit next to him at The Valley, and you will know. It's worse than sitting next to the drummer.
Your argument seems to be that if something equally terrible happened to us who care the most about this issue, we would somehow forget Brexit. Or change our minds. Rationally, why would that happen? Personal tragedies generally don't influence overall political perspective. I can see they might if one lost a friend or relative in Grenfell, and previously were a staunch Tory. But some people just care more, and believe more than you do in the political process. Were you more politically engaged, before your tragedy? From your subsequent comments, that would seem to be unlikely.
This is a thread about politics. Seth joins other threads and argues with equal passion, be it about yesterday's game or vegan food. It's the way he is.
But if he needed another reason to be passionate about Brexit and associated issues, it might be the fact his is a mixed race family. As with my sister in the same situation, it may make him uneasy about the way the country is going, because at the back of their minds, they might worry that one day, it might trigger an event which affects them all too personally too.
I think you just missed the point. I was merely highlighting that we as human beings have more of an inner strength than we know and there are actually a great many things that we can get over, should we have the will to do so. The reason I posted it is because of a particular moment of doom and gloom in one of Seth's posts and I was hoping to demonstrate that actually things are never as bad as they seem and even in the darkest times we can draw strength and carry on. Judging by Seth's response, he understood the sentiment, so I'm not sure why anybody else needed to get involved.
If you post an opinion on an Internet forum then by definition you invite others to "get involved." You have now posted what you wanted to say. Had you written it that way first time round I wouldn't have posted anything.
WCA nice to know you think your family will prosper despite Brexit though I'm struggling to imagine how. Inherited wealth? So why come on this forum and post almost entirely on this thread, in support of Brexit, based on the premise that "I'm alright Jack" when 90% of the rest of us will be fcukd?
If you weren't such a bitter little man I might satisfy you with a response, but after two posts with thinly veiled digs at me, I don't think I'll bother.
WCA nice to know you think your family will prosper despite Brexit though I'm struggling to imagine how. Inherited wealth? So why come on this forum and post almost entirely on this thread, in support of Brexit, based on the premise that "I'm alright Jack" when 90% of the rest of us will be fcukd?
If you weren't such a bitter little man I might satisfy you with a response, but after two posts with thinly veiled digs at me, I don't think I'll bother.
What a horrible thread this is.
Sorry but I'm just trying to get some jusification from Brexiteers as to why we were tricked into voting for financial ruin. Precious little from you so far despite multiple posts. At least you don't veil your digs, thinly or otherwise.
WCA nice to know you think your family will prosper despite Brexit though I'm struggling to imagine how. Inherited wealth? So why come on this forum and post almost entirely on this thread, in support of Brexit, based on the premise that "I'm alright Jack" when 90% of the rest of us will be fcukd?
If you weren't such a bitter little man I might satisfy you with a response, but after two posts with thinly veiled digs at me, I don't think I'll bother.
What a horrible thread this is.
Sorry but I'm just trying to get some jusification from Brexiteers as to why we were tricked into voting for financial ruin. Precious little from you so far despite multiple posts. At least you don't veil your digs, thinly or otherwise.
What financial ruin, exactly? Has it happened yet? No ~Why not wait till it happens then you might have some shred of plausability?
You are 100% spot on. Especially if you ignore over a decade of Labour's policy of uncontrolled immigration. And the rise of UKIP. And the inability of Liberals to claim the middle ground.
WCA nice to know you think your family will prosper despite Brexit though I'm struggling to imagine how. Inherited wealth? So why come on this forum and post almost entirely on this thread, in support of Brexit, based on the premise that "I'm alright Jack" when 90% of the rest of us will be fcukd?
If you weren't such a bitter little man I might satisfy you with a response, but after two posts with thinly veiled digs at me, I don't think I'll bother.
What a horrible thread this is.
Sorry but I'm just trying to get some jusification from Brexiteers as to why we were tricked into voting for financial ruin. Precious little from you so far despite multiple posts. At least you don't veil your digs, thinly or otherwise.
What financial ruin, exactly? Has it happened yet? No ~Why not wait till it happens then you might have some shred of plausability?
That's what we should always do right? If we think a car is going to crash we should wait until we hit the wall before applying the brakes?
WCA nice to know you think your family will prosper despite Brexit though I'm struggling to imagine how. Inherited wealth? So why come on this forum and post almost entirely on this thread, in support of Brexit, based on the premise that "I'm alright Jack" when 90% of the rest of us will be fcukd?
If you weren't such a bitter little man I might satisfy you with a response, but after two posts with thinly veiled digs at me, I don't think I'll bother.
What a horrible thread this is.
Sorry but I'm just trying to get some jusification from Brexiteers as to why we were tricked into voting for financial ruin. Precious little from you so far despite multiple posts. At least you don't veil your digs, thinly or otherwise.
What financial ruin, exactly? Has it happened yet? No ~Why not wait till it happens then you might have some shred of plausability?
That's what we should always do right? If we think a car is going to crash we should wait until we hit the wall before applying the brakes?
~No, you are right. What we should do is, in a grown up kind of way, is to scream 'agh I've been crippled by a terrible car crash' before it has happened. You know, just to warn people about something you know will happen. Even though it hasn't yet.
Jeez.
PS FYI IMO The sky is going to fall on our heads. Run for the hills!
Comments
Will of the people anyone?
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/big-brexit-survey-eu-uk-single-market-membership/
This also just confirms my suspicions...
It is never going to be good for everyone so you make a choice for your own personal reasons don't you? Or should I have voted in such a way that others are better off and I am worse off?
Those who state that "leave means leave" are welcome to their views. The fact is that they are in a minority and this will become very apparent in 12 months time when the option to remain / abort Brexit disappears.
We will be in a very different place once we leave and all the simplistic one liners become irrelevant as the nation contemplates what next. A customs union and a transition to a free trade agreement on goods is the very least the UK requires to avoid disruption and a recession.
But first we have a significant proportion of the electorate who do not yet accept the referendum. This piece from Owen Jones is interesting:
“Why I’m a Remainer who accepts the EU referendum result” @OwenJones84 https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/why-im-a-remainer-who-accepts-the-eu-referendum-result-d198dbc99c2
Absolutely spot on, wait till the next general election and ask them how they would like you to vote...apparently their very democratic...
Then like a lot of Brexit voters, faced with facts, you pretend they don't exist. How can any political party that did not call a referendum, be to blame for that referendum?
The answer is that they cannot. How you "feel" is wrong. The facts are that the Lib Dems, the Labour party, the Greens, the Scottish Nationalists and the Raving Loonies are NOT to blame. It is the Tories and the Tories alone who have caused this mess, only they called a referendum, no-one else, and no amount of justifying it in your mind is going to change that.
You have the courage to tell us that your vote was purely a selfish one, and I applaud you for that - very few Brexiters have been honest in coming forward with their reasons for voting that way, and most of them have a very different reason from yours... Have the courage to blame the party you appear to support, rather than others that had nothing to do with it. I for one would respect you for that, too.
What you tell us about your personal life is a terrible thing to consider. Most of us would feel lucky if nothing so terrible were to befall us. However you don't know that it didn't, in respect of any given poster.
The difference between you and @seth plum in respect of the topic in this thread, is that Seth, and I do know him personally, cares about the wider world around him. Passionately. Sit next to him at The Valley, and you will know. It's worse than sitting next to the drummer.
Your argument seems to be that if something equally terrible happened to us who care the most about this issue, we would somehow forget Brexit. Or change our minds. Rationally, why would that happen? Personal tragedies generally don't influence overall political perspective. I can see they might if one lost a friend or relative in Grenfell, and previously were a staunch Tory. But some people just care more, and believe more than you do in the political process. Were you more politically engaged, before your tragedy? From your subsequent comments, that would seem to be unlikely.
This is a thread about politics. Seth joins other threads and argues with equal passion, be it about yesterday's game or vegan food. It's the way he is.
But if he needed another reason to be passionate about Brexit and associated issues, it might be the fact his is a mixed race family. As with my sister in the same situation, it may make him uneasy about the way the country is going, because at the back of their minds, they might worry that one day, it might trigger an event which affects them all too personally too.
Or Brexit will be ok, because, after all, there are worse things that could happen?
Neither of these is a particularly glowing endorsement, in my view.
Not you and I. Nor will be those bleating their asinine slogans or seeking to interpret the referendum result to reflect their views. So we should be calm and await developments.
As it happens, there may well be a vote on Customs Union membership on Thursday after the Lords put in an amendment. Given that it is Labour policy to remain in the Customs Union and that there are at least 12 Tory rebels it's possible that we will have a decisive vote.
Great for the Irish border as one half of a solution but somewhat terminal for Theresa May when all the key decisions will be made by Corbyn, Heseltine and Clarke!
What a horrible thread this is.
Why post utter bollocks?
Oh wait, yes, I understand, this is the thread for nonsense.
Has it happened yet?
No
~Why not wait till it happens then you might have some shred of plausability?
Especially if you ignore over a decade of Labour's policy of uncontrolled immigration.
And the rise of UKIP.
And the inability of Liberals to claim the middle ground.
So, yes. Ignore all context and you are correct.
What we should do is, in a grown up kind of way, is to scream 'agh I've been crippled by a terrible car crash' before it has happened.
You know, just to warn people about something you know will happen.
Even though it hasn't yet.
Jeez.
PS FYI IMO The sky is going to fall on our heads. Run for the hills!