Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
Yes they can. I've accepted Remain lost and I'm far more interested in how this whole fiasco is going to work out in the future and the practicalities. It seems that every time a question is raised around this or yet another potential issue comes to light, it's Leavers who hark back to the referendum campaign.
I understand why Brexit voters feel more comfortable banging on about democracy and sovereignty and the will of the people and EU "dictatorships" rather than the practicalities of implementing their choice. It's because much of what they voted for turns out to be simply undeliverable, like providing a solution to Seth's border conundrum, or made up bullshit like the blue passports. Or is demonstrably going to make things worse/more difficult for us like jacking in membership of Euratom. Or the break up and need for numerous fresh trade deals around the planet...and so on.
What I do not accept is that both sides were equally in the dark and therefore manipulate the outcome to suit their agenda. Remainers voted to continue with our EU membership. Full stop. Leavers voted for something which has since become something else due to duplicitous and opportinist politicians.
It is hardly suprising therefore that there is a lot of resistance to the UK being bounced into something it simply did not vote on.
The simple fact that no one offering to overturn the referendum is gaining any momentum nationally renders the notion that remainers can’t accept the result as utter nonsense. Constant press campaigns? One newspaper versus how many? Another inaccurate generalisation.
Similarly, this thread is as often resuscitated by a leaver boast/gloat as it is by a remainder whinge.
But as usual, we deal in large handfuls of untruths these days and no one feels any compunction to back them up. In the words of the current king of this tactic. Sad.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
Well said, I am on 12 hour days today and the constant whining is certainly brightening up my day....
I accept that I lost. I accept that I lost an unnecessary, poorly defined, close-called, unbinding, non-refundable lottery on the future of our nation. A lottery in which the key players were allowed to lie with impunity. A lottery in which one side openly declared that they would come back for a second bite of the cherry if they lost, but are now trying to deny the rest of us a voice in defending things that weren't even included in the original question. More than that, unless the 'sovereign' politicians of this country grow some balls and get on with their job of protecting the public interest rather than pandering to a minority of right wing shit-stirrers, I and everyone else stand to be huge losers both economically and socially. It is curious that those who wish to remain are now branded whingers, but it was the forces pushing for a brexit vote that spent years whinging; often concocting and proliferating straight-banana lies just to hoodwink the public into believing their narrow minded views. If you think the 'whingefest' is going strong now, just wait till the brexshit really hits the fan. I have no doubts that those who voted for brexit have very genuine concerns, and typically don't have much say in the running of society. I fully understand why they would have used the referendum as a way to kick out at our inept political classes. What I don't accept that my, and millions of other people's, life chances should be irrecoverably diminished as a result of an intra-party squabble within the conservative party. Brexit is not going to solve the problems of the majority of people who voted for it. It is going to take away rights and freedoms whilst handing more power to a minority of highly placed chancers. It is set to damage our economy and create tremendously difficult political problems. Continuing along this path is nothing but folly. Things are going to get much worse for the vast majority of us. I have no intention of ever forgetting, or keeping quiet about, how this mess came about. Whingefest? You ain't seen nothing yet.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
Well said mate, some on here need to grow a pair....
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
If, and it is a fairly big if, a transitional arrangement and exit deal can be agreed, and this can lead to a mutually beneficial and friendly future trading relationship, and if this can be achieved without doing anything to damage the fabric of society (which, in an era if fairly febrile political "debate", may be difficult), you might be right...
But such an outcome would require levels of consensus that I have not seen to date.
I can only really speak with any degree of certainty from my own perspective and about those that I know, but I get a very strong feeling that Brexit is not only damaging and divisive in itself, it also acts as something of a lightning rod, drawing in charged political emotions, so that the same stance on Brexit, taken in Eltham, Edinburgh or Enniskillen, can reflect other political (potentially inimical to the UK) divisions, given new life by the Brexit vote and the Government's approach.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
I am saddened and sorry to hear about your loss, and full of admiration that you have worked to come to terms with it.
I probably don't have your strength, because I struggle with this brexit stuff every day, and it doesn't get any better.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
I am saddened and sorry to hear about your loss, and full of admiration that you have worked to come to terms with it.
I probably don't have your strength, because I struggle with this brexit stuff every day, and it doesn't get any better.
We all have the strength it's just about learning how to channel things. It's been 17 years and I think about them every day but after all the dust has settled I decided I didn't want my life to be defined by a tragic incident.
The reason you struggle with it every day is because the whole episode is still up in the air and the event hasn't even occurred yet. You know something you don't like is going to happen soon and so it's regularly in your thoughts.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
I am saddened and sorry to hear about your loss, and full of admiration that you have worked to come to terms with it.
I probably don't have your strength, because I struggle with this brexit stuff every day, and it doesn't get any better.
We all have the strength it's just about learning how to channel things. It's been 17 years and I think about them every day but after all the dust has settled I decided I didn't want my life to be defined by a tragic incident.
The reason you struggle with it every day is because the whole episode is still up in the air and the event hasn't even occurred yet. You know something you don't like is going to happen soon and so it's regularly in your thoughts.
And I have an Irish passport, and a brother living in Ballycasey so my interest is possibly more vested than most.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
I've been quite upfront about my reasons. I run a business and for the most part I'm dealing with countries who are outside of the EU and have no trade deal with the EU.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
If, and it is a fairly big if, a transitional arrangement and exit deal can be agreed, and this can lead to a mutually beneficial and friendly future trading relationship, and if this can be achieved without doing anything to damage the fabric of society (which, in an era if fairly febrile political "debate", may be difficult), you might be right...
But such an outcome would require levels of consensus that I have not seen to date.
I can only really speak with any degree of certainty from my own perspective and about those that I know, but I get a very strong feeling that Brexit is not only damaging and divisive in itself, it also acts as something of a lightning rod, drawing in charged political emotions, so that the same stance on Brexit, taken in Eltham, Edinburgh or Enniskillen, can reflect other political (potentially inimical to the UK) divisions, given new life by the Brexit vote and the Government's approach.
Personally I think it will all blow over once the event has past. It's worth pointing out however that no side will be truly happy. Because of the close vote a clean or hard Brexit will not happen. It's almost a given that we will have one foot in and one foot out and be worse off as a result, possibly even worse off than a hard Brexit though that is a purely speculative statement on my part.
The problem is that nobody thought to discuss what type of Brexit the voters wanted, with the voters, and as I said previously a straight in or out was always going to be a bad idea. But let's remember this idea came about because of pressure put upon Cameron by right wing Tories in the wake of UKIP's rise in popularity.
Brexit was never meant to happen. The whole referendum thing was just a way of Conservatives keeping or winning back voters who's heads had been turned by Farage and Co. If some proper thought had been put into it we might have actually found out what kind of relationship most people want with Europe.
As it stands there is bickering and arguing inter party and across party. If any of these politicians involved think this is going to help get a good deal then they are deluded.
This is a mess made by every party but as usual instead of working together in the public interest to come up with a proper pla and negotiating pisition, they resort to complaining and finger pointing. This is something that parliament as a whole should've worked together on, but once again parliament has failed the people.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
I'd be happy with just a deal with the exact same benefits as EU membership, like we were all promised
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
I've been quite upfront about my reasons. I run a business and for the most part I'm dealing with countries who are outside of the EU and have no trade deal with the EU.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
I have a friend whose business deals extensively with countries in and outside of the EU. He thinks leaving is a very bad idea.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
I'd be happy with just a deal with the exact same benefits as EU membership, like we were all promised
Politicians have a habit of making and breaking promises. When are people going to stop believing what they say?
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
I personally accept I lost but take your point that many can't accept it and want to overturn the referendum result. I certainly accept the division in the country, because again on a personal level if I discover somebody voted brexit I feel a sense of antipathy bordering on contempt, and don't want to be in their company because I will end up thinking they are greedy moronic racists in disguise. For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations. However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
Pull yourself together man. If I can get over losing a wife and a child in one fell swoop and go on to have a fruitful, successful and happy life, you can get over Brexit. It's not the be all and end all, there are a great deal many worse things that can happen to a person that they get over. If they want to, and maybe that's the problem?
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
If, and it is a fairly big if, a transitional arrangement and exit deal can be agreed, and this can lead to a mutually beneficial and friendly future trading relationship, and if this can be achieved without doing anything to damage the fabric of society (which, in an era if fairly febrile political "debate", may be difficult), you might be right...
But such an outcome would require levels of consensus that I have not seen to date.
I can only really speak with any degree of certainty from my own perspective and about those that I know, but I get a very strong feeling that Brexit is not only damaging and divisive in itself, it also acts as something of a lightning rod, drawing in charged political emotions, so that the same stance on Brexit, taken in Eltham, Edinburgh or Enniskillen, can reflect other political (potentially inimical to the UK) divisions, given new life by the Brexit vote and the Government's approach.
Personally I think it will all blow over once the event has past. It's worth pointing out however that no side will be truly happy. Because of the close vote a clean or hard Brexit will not happen. It's almost a given that we will have one foot in and one foot out and be worse off as a result, possibly even worse off than a hard Brexit though that is a purely speculative statement on my part.
The problem is that nobody thought to discuss what type of Brexit the voters wanted, with the voters, and as I said previously a straight in or out was always going to be a bad idea. But let's remember this idea came about because of pressure put upon Cameron by right wing Tories in the wake of UKIP's rise in popularity.
Brexit was never meant to happen. The whole referendum thing was just a way of Conservatives keeping or winning back voters who's heads had been turned by Farage and Co. If some proper thought had been put into it we might have actually found out what kind of relationship most people want with Europe.
As it stands there is bickering and arguing inter party and across party. If any of these politicians involved think this is going to help get a good deal then they are deluded.
This is a mess made by every party but as usual instead of working together in the public interest to come up with a proper pla and negotiating pisition, they resort to complaining and finger pointing. This is something that parliament as a whole should've worked together on, but once again parliament has failed the people.
Point of order old bean. As you state the referendum was called by the Conservatives - it is categorically NOT a mess made by every party.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
If, and it is a fairly big if, a transitional arrangement and exit deal can be agreed, and this can lead to a mutually beneficial and friendly future trading relationship, and if this can be achieved without doing anything to damage the fabric of society (which, in an era if fairly febrile political "debate", may be difficult), you might be right...
But such an outcome would require levels of consensus that I have not seen to date.
I can only really speak with any degree of certainty from my own perspective and about those that I know, but I get a very strong feeling that Brexit is not only damaging and divisive in itself, it also acts as something of a lightning rod, drawing in charged political emotions, so that the same stance on Brexit, taken in Eltham, Edinburgh or Enniskillen, can reflect other political (potentially inimical to the UK) divisions, given new life by the Brexit vote and the Government's approach.
Personally I think it will all blow over once the event has past. It's worth pointing out however that no side will be truly happy. Because of the close vote a clean or hard Brexit will not happen. It's almost a given that we will have one foot in and one foot out and be worse off as a result, possibly even worse off than a hard Brexit though that is a purely speculative statement on my part.
The problem is that nobody thought to discuss what type of Brexit the voters wanted, with the voters, and as I said previously a straight in or out was always going to be a bad idea. But let's remember this idea came about because of pressure put upon Cameron by right wing Tories in the wake of UKIP's rise in popularity.
Brexit was never meant to happen. The whole referendum thing was just a way of Conservatives keeping or winning back voters who's heads had been turned by Farage and Co. If some proper thought had been put into it we might have actually found out what kind of relationship most people want with Europe.
As it stands there is bickering and arguing inter party and across party. If any of these politicians involved think this is going to help get a good deal then they are deluded.
This is a mess made by every party but as usual instead of working together in the public interest to come up with a proper pla and negotiating pisition, they resort to complaining and finger pointing. This is something that parliament as a whole should've worked together on, but once again parliament has failed the people.
Point of order old bean. As you state the referendum was called by the Conservatives - it is categorically NOT a mess made by every party.
So I'm guessing you agree with the statement 'your mess, you sort it out'? Or do you think that a cross party solution would have been a far better option?
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
I've been quite upfront about my reasons. I run a business and for the most part I'm dealing with countries who are outside of the EU and have no trade deal with the EU.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
I have a friend whose business deals extensively with countries in and outside of the EU. He thinks leaving is a very bad idea.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
I've been quite upfront about my reasons. I run a business and for the most part I'm dealing with countries who are outside of the EU and have no trade deal with the EU.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
I have a friend whose business deals extensively with countries in and outside of the EU. He thinks leaving is a very bad idea.
Maybe for his business it is. For mine it isn't.
But for the vast majority of businesses in the UK, ones providing millions of jobs, leaving the EU is a very bad idea!
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
Curious you are a Brexiteer WCA. Your farmers will lose their EU subsidies and export markets, visas for Europeans will hit your tourist industry and Monaco yacht-buyers may go to a country not paying import duty rather than buy from Pendennis or others down your way. The hit to your local economy will cause more kids to leave. But at least you have control. Or Fiona May, Boris and JRM do.
I've been quite upfront about my reasons. I run a business and for the most part I'm dealing with countries who are outside of the EU and have no trade deal with the EU.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
I have a friend whose business deals extensively with countries in and outside of the EU. He thinks leaving is a very bad idea.
Maybe for his business it is. For mine it isn't.
Perhaps this is even true, and you're in the tiny minority of people who are actually benefited by us leaving the EU.
Well, I'd benefit from certain things being the case too.
If you needed a degree to vote, I'd benefit.
If by passing a written English test you could lower your taxes, I'd benefit.
If people of Cypriot descent were given a state-subsidised holiday to Cyprus every two years, I'd certainly benefit.
But would I want any of these? (I mean, apart from the third one.) No. Because while I'd benefit, the country would be screwed up for everyone else. And I don't want that. We live in a society, and the aim shouldn't be to crush that society into submission.
I wonder - I really wonder - what these 'issues caused by EU trade rules' are, and why you want to circumvent them.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
If, and it is a fairly big if, a transitional arrangement and exit deal can be agreed, and this can lead to a mutually beneficial and friendly future trading relationship, and if this can be achieved without doing anything to damage the fabric of society (which, in an era if fairly febrile political "debate", may be difficult), you might be right...
But such an outcome would require levels of consensus that I have not seen to date.
I can only really speak with any degree of certainty from my own perspective and about those that I know, but I get a very strong feeling that Brexit is not only damaging and divisive in itself, it also acts as something of a lightning rod, drawing in charged political emotions, so that the same stance on Brexit, taken in Eltham, Edinburgh or Enniskillen, can reflect other political (potentially inimical to the UK) divisions, given new life by the Brexit vote and the Government's approach.
Personally I think it will all blow over once the event has past. It's worth pointing out however that no side will be truly happy. Because of the close vote a clean or hard Brexit will not happen. It's almost a given that we will have one foot in and one foot out and be worse off as a result, possibly even worse off than a hard Brexit though that is a purely speculative statement on my part.
The problem is that nobody thought to discuss what type of Brexit the voters wanted, with the voters, and as I said previously a straight in or out was always going to be a bad idea. But let's remember this idea came about because of pressure put upon Cameron by right wing Tories in the wake of UKIP's rise in popularity.
Brexit was never meant to happen. The whole referendum thing was just a way of Conservatives keeping or winning back voters who's heads had been turned by Farage and Co. If some proper thought had been put into it we might have actually found out what kind of relationship most people want with Europe.
As it stands there is bickering and arguing inter party and across party. If any of these politicians involved think this is going to help get a good deal then they are deluded.
This is a mess made by every party but as usual instead of working together in the public interest to come up with a proper pla and negotiating pisition, they resort to complaining and finger pointing. This is something that parliament as a whole should've worked together on, but once again parliament has failed the people.
Point of order old bean. As you state the referendum was called by the Conservatives - it is categorically NOT a mess made by every party.
So I'm guessing you agree with the statement 'your mess, you sort it out'? Or do you think that a cross party solution would have been a far better option?
I think that answering my statement with an honest response would have reflected on you better than trying to deflect the truth by straying into another discussion completely. It is NOT a mess made by every party.
Petition for a referendum to abolish the House of Lords. This unelected body is trying to support the unelected EU to overturn Brexit. Time this bastion of undemocratic privilege in this country was consigned to history.
And of course, had they gone the other way, you would be saying the same.
I have always been for the abolition of tbe Lords. Their behaviour around Brexit just proves once again it needs to go. Interesting that Remainers now supporting the unelected Lords as they do the unelected EU-at least they are consistent I guess.
The EU is not unelected.
The EU is even less democratic than the House of Lords. The Lords at least do not create policy nor put it into law, unlike the unelected EU Commission. The EU commissioners are appointed by national governments but are legally obliged not to represent them but swear an oath to the EU, which is a supranational body. We have no control over what the commissioners appointed by our government do. Our government has no say over the creation of EU law. The EU makes the Lords look mildly democratic by comparison.
Who elects the UK government that provides a UK commissioner? Sorry but the chain you describe that leads to your conclusion that those running the EU are unelected, is a chain that describes a democratic process. You may not want to believe it but the EU governance is democratically elected even if it seems rather remote to you. It doesn't matter any more anyway because brexit won, and the UK reverts to a democratic system that is worse than the EU one. Any solution to the Irish border that squares with both the Belfast Agreement and taking back control in sight?
But the UK government is a minority government, voted on by a minority of those eligible to vote. Ipso facto anything they do undemocratic.
That's the argument used by most on here isn't it?
I can't believe this whingefest is still going strong, well for the dedicated few anyway.
You make my point for me. The UK government is a form of democracy, but in my view worse than the EU from of democracy. I exclude myself from the whingefest because I accept brexit (whatever that is supposed to mean) won. The problem is that brexiters can't seem to accept they won, they are fixated with finger jabbing the losers and not solving the problems, like the Irish Border.
And Remainers can't accept they lost, hence why we have threads this long and constant campaigns in the press on how to overturn the result or stay in certain parts of the EU.
People on both sides are full of shit, ultimately.
An in-out referendum was always going to be a controversial event, no matter the result. Without options on the ballot paper, both sides can talk about why people voted the way they did, and make it fit their own agenda. It's a complete mess and the negotiations since have been no better. The sooner the chapter is closed the better for everyone, because now, the divisions in the country are some of the worst I can remember.
And how is the chapter going to be closed?
Once all the talking is done, transitional arrangement done, and we are out with whatever deal was negotiated, Brexit will be done, however it all looks, it will close the chapter. Of course another one will open...
I'd be happy with just a deal with the exact same benefits as EU membership, like we were all promised
Politicians have a habit of making and breaking promises. When are people going to stop believing what they say?
Comments
For me this will never change and I am doomed to carry my hatred with me forever. This chapter will never close, at least for many generations.
However the present reality is that brexit won, yet they can't make it happen even though they have the liberty to do so.
I understand why Brexit voters feel more comfortable banging on about democracy and sovereignty and the will of the people and EU "dictatorships" rather than the practicalities of implementing their choice. It's because much of what they voted for turns out to be simply undeliverable, like providing a solution to Seth's border conundrum, or made up bullshit like the blue passports. Or is demonstrably going to make things worse/more difficult for us like jacking in membership of Euratom. Or the break up and need for numerous fresh trade deals around the planet...and so on.
What I do not accept is that both sides were equally in the dark and therefore manipulate the outcome to suit their agenda. Remainers voted to continue with our EU membership. Full stop. Leavers voted for something which has since become something else due to duplicitous and opportinist politicians.
It is hardly suprising therefore that there is a lot of resistance to the UK being bounced into something it simply did not vote on.
Similarly, this thread is as often resuscitated by a leaver boast/gloat as it is by a remainder whinge.
But as usual, we deal in large handfuls of untruths these days and no one feels any compunction to back them up. In the words of the current king of this tactic. Sad.
Quitters, what's your solution?
Japan ambassador’s Brexit warning: there won’t be a deal better than the single market
https://theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/22/koji-tsuruoka-japan-ambassador-britain-brexit-single-market?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
But such an outcome would require levels of consensus that I have not seen to date.
I can only really speak with any degree of certainty from my own perspective and about those that I know, but I get a very strong feeling that Brexit is not only damaging and divisive in itself, it also acts as something of a lightning rod, drawing in charged political emotions, so that the same stance on Brexit, taken in Eltham, Edinburgh or Enniskillen, can reflect other political (potentially inimical to the UK) divisions, given new life by the Brexit vote and the Government's approach.
I probably don't have your strength, because I struggle with this brexit stuff every day, and it doesn't get any better.
The reason you struggle with it every day is because the whole episode is still up in the air and the event hasn't even occurred yet. You know something you don't like is going to happen soon and so it's regularly in your thoughts.
My hope is that by being outside of the EU and the UK having the ability to negotiate our own deals it will ease some of the issues we have which are caused by EU trade rules.
It's a gamble, it may not work out as I hope but currently we will not grow the business to the potential I believe we can reach by being inside the EU.
Selfish reasons obviously, but I would like to leave my family comfortably well off when I depart this world.
The problem is that nobody thought to discuss what type of Brexit the voters wanted, with the voters, and as I said previously a straight in or out was always going to be a bad idea. But let's remember this idea came about because of pressure put upon Cameron by right wing Tories in the wake of UKIP's rise in popularity.
Brexit was never meant to happen. The whole referendum thing was just a way of Conservatives keeping or winning back voters who's heads had been turned by Farage and Co. If some proper thought had been put into it we might have actually found out what kind of relationship most people want with Europe.
As it stands there is bickering and arguing inter party and across party. If any of these politicians involved think this is going to help get a good deal then they are deluded.
This is a mess made by every party but as usual instead of working together in the public interest to come up with a proper pla and negotiating pisition, they resort to complaining and finger pointing. This is something that parliament as a whole should've worked together on, but once again parliament has failed the people.
Well, I'd benefit from certain things being the case too.
If you needed a degree to vote, I'd benefit.
If by passing a written English test you could lower your taxes, I'd benefit.
If people of Cypriot descent were given a state-subsidised holiday to Cyprus every two years, I'd certainly benefit.
But would I want any of these? (I mean, apart from the third one.) No. Because while I'd benefit, the country would be screwed up for everyone else. And I don't want that. We live in a society, and the aim shouldn't be to crush that society into submission.
I wonder - I really wonder - what these 'issues caused by EU trade rules' are, and why you want to circumvent them.