Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
If that was true it would amount to strange not to say dishonest behaviour from at least one of the CAST board members involved with CARD and who supported CARD’s position. So I suggest it isn’t.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
If that was true it would amount to strange not to say dishonest behaviour from at least one of the CAST board members involved with CARD and who supported CARD’s position. So I suggest it isn’t.
Just out of interest what’s the reaction going to be like if the news suddenly breaks that both parties have walked and the sale is off?
Are we traveling en masse to Belgium?
I think we need to respect what M Duchatelet has done for us, saving the club, totally rebuilding the training ground, investing money at only 3% interest.
Let's get behind him and wait and see where we are after the next two transfer windows.
The sad thing is that there are still some out there who think this is how it is.
More and more people are fed up with CARD and are backing Roland, Katrien and Karl
On the radio tonight, old tango man said Arsenal have gate receipts of £120M per season, and valued the club at £1.2 billion. What would be the value of Charlton based on the same criteria? How much were the gate receipts for last season?
On the radio tonight, old tango man said Arsenal have gate receipts of £120M per season, and valued the club at £1.2 billion. What would be the value of Charlton based on the same criteria? How much were the gate receipts for last season?
Matchday receipts include a few other bits and pieces but £3m in round numbers (includes season tickets).
I'm afraid my Trust board colleague PragueAddick has got it wrong.
The Trust board had discussed the pros and cons of requesting a meeting with RM but had not approached RM to try to set a meeting up before the CARD statement was issued.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
If that was true it would amount to strange not to say dishonest behaviour from at least one of the CAST board members involved with CARD and who supported CARD’s position. So I suggest it isn’t.
I'm afraid my Trust board colleague PragueAddick has got it wrong.
The Trust board had discussed the pros and cons of requesting a meeting with RM but had not approached RM to try to set a meeting up before the CARD statement was issued.
This is an important clarification, and worth piecing together the exchange.
CAST is part of CARD and fully supported the call for a protest, so it would have been strange, to say the least, if that had nearly sabotaged a pre-arranged meeting with Richard Murray.
Just out of interest what’s the reaction going to be like if the news suddenly breaks that both parties have walked and the sale is off?
Are we traveling en masse to Belgium?
I think we need to respect what M Duchatelet has done for us, saving the club, totally rebuilding the training ground, investing money at only 3% interest.
Let's get behind him and wait and see where we are after the next two transfer windows.
I don't think you should copy stuff verbatim from other forums H...
Just out of interest what’s the reaction going to be like if the news suddenly breaks that both parties have walked and the sale is off?
Are we traveling en masse to Belgium?
I think we need to respect what M Duchatelet has done for us, saving the club, totally rebuilding the training ground, investing money at only 3% interest.
Let's get behind him and wait and see where we are after the next two transfer windows.
Just out of interest what’s the reaction going to be like if the news suddenly breaks that both parties have walked and the sale is off?
Are we traveling en masse to Belgium?
I think we need to respect what M Duchatelet has done for us, saving the club, totally rebuilding the training ground, investing money at only 3% interest.
Let's get behind him and wait and see where we are after the next two transfer windows.
Is it safe to post yet? There seemed to be some very troubled souls "stalking" this thread.
It appears we all need a few moments tranquility and some "re-girding of loins" as the closing stages of the season and hopefully a takeover saga now resembling War & Peace approaches its end phase. In hindsight we should have asked for a "winter break" on this thread. You could all try Havening Techniques!
In the real world there has been much to admire over the past 12-14 days. As a result there may still be a journey of consequence to travel over the coming weeks. As Bristol showed it will not be an easy journey.
M.Duchatelet can take credit the club continues to trade enabling the current personnel to have stirred a burst of positivity and to apparently remain in place to guide us on the journey to come.
Most, as I, will exult if the journey reaches a successful conclusion and restores us to the status we held on a certain fateful day in Jan 2014. Such an event in itself will repair some of the damage caused over the past four years.
Whether the structure of the club and its personnel will then be in position to continue as a professional organisation let alone retain such a status we can all review at a more appropriate time.
The meandering ramblings of this thread suggest it has been an all too difficult experience for many. It has certainly been a very expensive one for the club. Though some latter improvement is evident the recent accounts published for the trading year to June 2017, reveal little more than most had already surmised.
When you consider the skeleton executive and reduced squad the operational costs are disappointing. These of course are the numbers which correlate to the club falling to nigh on its lowest League position in living memory.
It is good the overall financial position as at June 2017 had not materially deteriorated from the previous year but it still left the level of debt, originallly absorbed at a level of circa £21mn, at an unprecedented circa £57mn. An increase of £36mn over a 43 month period of trading.
Add in exceptional trading receipts for player sales of circa £21mn and we have, under this administration, had a pro rata per annum funding requirement of circa £16mn.
The loss of match day revenue of circa £2mn p.a. from 2015, the nominal £1mn p.a. interest charge, the sunken costs for the incomplete training ground upgrade all play into it but really it is not just the money you spend but how you spend it and importantly the results you achieve.
The debt indicates RD was prepared to spend, yet at every key decision point he fell short of the stated business requirements of either Powell, Peeters, Luzon, (not sure Fraeye had any), Slade or Robinson while Riga was called upon (as needed) to apply the sticking plaster.
Bowyer has become the ninth "permanent" change in the managerial hot seat in 51 months.
The financial approach reminds me of a bank executive colleague who chose to bring a transaction process "in house". IT came up with a price of £10mn and a 2yr time line. He sanctioned £5mn and 18 months. He was warned.
In the final weeks IT were pulling developments left right & centre. They hit the timeline with an over spend of £2mn. It was a friggin disaster. It cost the man his job and the bank an extra £5mn and another 12 months to put it right.
You would like to think there was one saving grace beyond the club continuing to exist and much has been written about the productivity & investment in the training ground and academy. Yet the development production line of Gomez, Cousins, Poyet, Fox, Holmes-Dennis, Harriott, Pope, Konsa were in situ at the time of acquisition.
Only Berg Gudmundsson & Lookman of the assets acquired during these trading periods have been sold for materially more than the cost of acquisition with the latter of course walking in off the street, but let's not begrudge anyone their piece of good fortune.
Then consider a) a fully approved, externally funded, upgrade plan for the academy & training ground was in place at the time of the 2014 acquisition b) the sums now invested in the training ground and c) the current state of the facilities at Sparrows Lane and this investor "jewel" has a distinctly tarnished feel.
Just how much of the debt will be left with the club as this investor departs is still to be determined but on the above basis you have to question any sense of entitlement M. Duchatelet feels in respect of securing benefits from the clubs future trading potential whether it be in respect of promotion, the contingent revenues on sales already made or the future sales of Bauer, Konsa, Aribo, Fosu etc.
Anticipating a reward for simply having been there is decidedly the action of a bank manager. The difference being a bank rarely gets to control the enterprise. At some point there is a price to pay for the investment decisions you make and those who you chose to empower with your investment.
In the coming days/ weeks we will hopefully discover quite how the £57mn debt is to be accounted for in terms of settlement, deferred settlement, contingent revenues & liabilities and investor "write off".
In this industry at this level there is always a funding requirement. The unproductive profligacy beyond is quite another matter. For all this waffling about friendly debt and quasi equity ultimately you only get to spend the money once.
Every £ now spent in acquiring the club and settling/ managing this debt is a £ that cannot be spent in investing in its future.
I have read derogatory comments on the supposed wealth/ liquidity of certain prospective investors. Please recognise whoever the party/ parties maybe they will likely be the biggest investors in the history of the club in just taking their seat at the table to assume management of a debt level they had no part in creating.
I can but hope they are clear in ensuring whatever future remuneration to Duchatelet can be negotiated it does not threaten, or severely impinge upon, the clubs future financial and footballing performance.
Despite the fantasy world of the recent pages I appreciate all of the "noises off" regarding the prospective change of ownership but if it takes another week, month or 3 months this deal has to be right. No matter the information churn if we need to be patient then so be it.
For now we need one focus. A certain Mr Bowyer, his side kick and a squad of players have a job to do. It is a big ask and they are going to need all the help they can get.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
If that was true it would amount to strange not to say dishonest behaviour from at least one of the CAST board members involved with CARD and who supported CARD’s position. So I suggest it isn’t.
I'm afraid my Trust board colleague PragueAddick has got it wrong.
The Trust board had discussed the pros and cons of requesting a meeting with RM but had not approached RM to try to set a meeting up before the CARD statement was issued.
This is an important clarification, and worth piecing together the exchange.
CAST is part of CARD and fully supported the call for a protest, so it would have been strange, to say the least, if that had nearly sabotaged a pre-arranged meeting with Richard Murray.
Is it safe to post yet? There seemed to be some very troubled souls "stalking" this thread.
It appears we all need a few moments tranquility and some "re-girding of loins" as the closing stages of the season and hopefully a takeover saga now resembling War & Peace approaches its end phase. In hindsight we should have asked for a "winter break" on this thread. You could all try Havening Techniques!
In the real world there has been much to admire over the past 12-14 days. As a result there may still be a journey of consequence to travel over the coming weeks. As Bristol showed it will not be an easy journey.
M.Duchatelet can take credit the club continues to trade enabling the current personnel to have stirred a burst of positivity and to apparently remain in place to guide us on the journey to come.
Most, as I, will exult if the journey reaches a successful conclusion and restores us to the status we held on a certain fateful day in Jan 2014. Such an event in itself will repair some of the damage caused over the past four years.
Whether the structure of the club and its personnel will then be in position to continue as a professional organisation let alone retain such a status we can all review at a more appropriate time.
The meandering ramblings of this thread suggest it has been an all too difficult experience for many. It has certainly been a very expensive one for the club. Though some latter improvement is evident the recent accounts published for the trading year to June 2017, reveal little more than most had already surmised.
When you consider the skeleton executive and reduced squad the operational costs are disappointing. These of course are the numbers which correlate to the club falling to nigh on its lowest League position in living memory.
It is good the overall financial position as at June 2017 had not materially deteriorated from the previous year but it still left the level of debt, originallly absorbed at a level of circa £21mn, at an unprecedented circa £57mn. An increase of £36mn over a 43 month period of trading.
Add in exceptional trading receipts for player sales of circa £21mn and we have, under this administration, had a pro rata per annum funding requirement of circa £16mn.
The loss of match day revenue of circa £2mn p.a. from 2015, the nominal £1mn p.a. interest charge, the sunken costs for the incomplete training ground upgrade all play into it but really it is not just the money you spend but how you spend it and importantly the results you achieve.
The debt indicates RD was prepared to spend, yet at every key decision point he fell short of the stated business requirements of either Powell, Peeters, Luzon, (not sure Fraeye had any), Slade or Robinson while Riga was called upon (as needed) to apply the sticking plaster.
Bowyer has become the ninth "permanent" change in the managerial hot seat in 51 months.
The financial approach reminds me of a bank executive colleague who chose to bring a transaction process "in house". IT came up with a price of £10mn and a 2yr time line. He sanctioned £5mn and 18 months. He was warned.
In the final weeks IT were pulling developments left right & centre. They hit the timeline with an over spend of £2mn. It was a friggin disaster. It cost the man his job and the bank an extra £5mn and another 12 months to put it right.
You would like to think there was one saving grace beyond the club continuing to exist and much has been written about the productivity & investment in the training ground and academy. Yet the development production line of Gomez, Cousins, Poyet, Fox, Holmes-Dennis, Harriott, Pope, Konsa were in situ at the time of acquisition.
Only Berg Gudmundsson & Lookman of the assets acquired during these trading periods have been sold for materially more than the cost of acquisition with the latter of course walking in off the street, but let's not begrudge anyone their piece of good fortune.
Then consider a) a fully approved, externally funded, upgrade plan for the academy & training ground was in place at the time of the 2014 acquisition b) the sums now invested in the training ground and c) the current state of the facilities at Sparrows Lane and this investor "jewel" has a distinctly tarnished feel.
Just how much of the debt will be left with the club as this investor departs is still to be determined but on the above basis you have to question any sense of entitlement M. Duchatelet feels in respect of securing benefits from the clubs future trading potential whether it be in respect of promotion, the contingent revenues on sales already made or the future sales of Bauer, Konsa, Aribo, Fosu etc.
Anticipating a reward for simply having been there is decidedly the action of a bank manager. The difference being a bank rarely gets to control the enterprise. At some point there is a price to pay for the investment decisions you make and those who you chose to empower with your investment.
In the coming days/ weeks we will hopefully discover quite how the £57mn debt is to be accounted for in terms of settlement, deferred settlement, contingent revenues & liabilities and investor "write off".
In this industry at this level there is always a funding requirement. The unproductive profligacy beyond is quite another matter. For all this waffling about friendly debt and quasi equity ultimately you only get to spend the money once.
Every £ now spent in acquiring the club and settling/ managing this debt is a £ that cannot be spent in investing in its future.
I have read derogatory comments on the supposed wealth/ liquidity of certain prospective investors. Please recognise whoever the party/ parties maybe they will likely be the biggest investors in the history of the club in just taking their seat at the table to assume management of a debt level they had no part in creating.
I can but hope they are clear in ensuring whatever future remuneration to Duchatelet can be negotiated it does not threaten, or severely impinge upon, the clubs future financial and footballing performance.
Despite the fantasy world of the recent pages I appreciate all of the "noises off" regarding the prospective change of ownership but if it takes another week, month or 3 months this deal has to be right. No matter the information churn if we need to be patient then so be it.
For now we need one focus. A certain Mr Bowyer, his side kick and a squad of players have a job to do. It is a big ask and they are going to need all the help they can get.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
If that was true it would amount to strange not to say dishonest behaviour from at least one of the CAST board members involved with CARD and who supported CARD’s position. So I suggest it isn’t.
I'm afraid my Trust board colleague PragueAddick has got it wrong.
The Trust board had discussed the pros and cons of requesting a meeting with RM but had not approached RM to try to set a meeting up before the CARD statement was issued.
This is an important clarification, and worth piecing together the exchange.
CAST is part of CARD and fully supported the call for a protest, so it would have been strange, to say the least, if that had nearly sabotaged a pre-arranged meeting with Richard Murray.
Sorry everyone, I completely fouled up with the post referred to.
I am constantly berating other people on other threads to only post contentious stuff if they have the sources to back it up. Had I followed my own advice last night, and just checked back on the relevant email threads to remind myself, I would simply not have posted what I did, and am now going to remove the original post.
Apologies particularly to my fellow Trust and CARD colleagues. I will now spend the rest of the day kicking myself and confining my Charlton Life to the match thread.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
If that was true it would amount to strange not to say dishonest behaviour from at least one of the CAST board members involved with CARD and who supported CARD’s position. So I suggest it isn’t.
I'm afraid my Trust board colleague PragueAddick has got it wrong.
The Trust board had discussed the pros and cons of requesting a meeting with RM but had not approached RM to try to set a meeting up before the CARD statement was issued.
This is an important clarification, and worth piecing together the exchange.
CAST is part of CARD and fully supported the call for a protest, so it would have been strange, to say the least, if that had nearly sabotaged a pre-arranged meeting with Richard Murray.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
Murray has made public statements which have turned out to be false. They are in VOTV. What is the difference between that and lying?
He has to know they are untrue when he makes them for him to be lying. Even the belief they are untrue is largely or entirely based on things people post here under pseudonyms (as I am, but I'm not concealing my identity). I am not criticising anyone, but people need to calm down a bit. Things have moved backwards as well as forwards in this saga. Things that were true or appeared to be true become untrue or turn out not to have been.
I think Charlton fans are being lied to by Murray and Duchatelet. We are being played like a fiddle and I am sick of it. The two bids were supposed to be agreed months ago. Now we hear that no bids have been agreed. What the fuck is happening?
Murray has no medium or long-term interest in making statements that turn out not to be true. He would have been better off personally saying nothing at all. Duchatelet is just mad. Even if they were capable of crafting a conspiracy between them, it's hard to see Duchatelet would have expensive lawyers and accountants running around on the clock for months in order to deceive supporters.
But he was (quite rightly) backed into a corner by the threat of the CARD protest - wasn't it meant to be calling for him to talk to the crowd? So I guess he had to say something. He just said enough to stop further protests.
So are protests at The Valley effective or not effective? I can't keep up. Murray likely wants to void exposing the extent to which he is now regarded as an enemy, probably because he is keen to sell himself as the man the fans trust to new owners. However, you can't explain all of his statements since January 20th on the basis of an aborted protest that day. Indeed, fewer and fewer people believe him anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean - but if you are asking me, then yes, I do think they are effective. This announced protest resulted in Murray speaking to the Trust. He had to do something or the protest focus would switch to him rather than RD. Apart from Tone, he is the last man standing.
That isn't really correct. The Trust had already approached him to see if he would meet us, in the hope of us finding out at least something of what was going on, and to register our concerns about the way the transfer window appeared to be proceeding. As I recall, he had already agreed to do that, and he then became upset that we had asked him for a meet, and at the same time, as part of CARD, we appeared to be organising protests against him. If anything the protest call nearly sabotaged the meeting.
If that was true it would amount to strange not to say dishonest behaviour from at least one of the CAST board members involved with CARD and who supported CARD’s position. So I suggest it isn’t.
I'm afraid my Trust board colleague PragueAddick has got it wrong.
The Trust board had discussed the pros and cons of requesting a meeting with RM but had not approached RM to try to set a meeting up before the CARD statement was issued.
This is an important clarification, and worth piecing together the exchange.
CAST is part of CARD and fully supported the call for a protest, so it would have been strange, to say the least, if that had nearly sabotaged a pre-arranged meeting with Richard Murray.
Sorry everyone, I completely fouled up with the post referred to.
I am constantly berating other people on other threads to only post contentious stuff if they have the sources to back it up. Had I followed my own advice last night, and just checked back on the relevant email threads to remind myself, I would simply not have posted what I did, and am now going to remove the original post.
Apologies particularly to my fellow Trust and CARD colleagues. I will now spend the rest of the day kicking myself and confining my Charlton Life to the match thread.
Don’t worry we can all give you a virtual kicking as well
Is it safe to post yet? There seemed to be some very troubled souls "stalking" this thread.
It appears we all need a few moments tranquility and some "re-girding of loins" as the closing stages of the season and hopefully a takeover saga now resembling War & Peace approaches its end phase. In hindsight we should have asked for a "winter break" on this thread. You could all try Havening Techniques!
In the real world there has been much to admire over the past 12-14 days. As a result there may still be a journey of consequence to travel over the coming weeks. As Bristol showed it will not be an easy journey.
M.Duchatelet can take credit the club continues to trade enabling the current personnel to have stirred a burst of positivity and to apparently remain in place to guide us on the journey to come.
Most, as I, will exult if the journey reaches a successful conclusion and restores us to the status we held on a certain fateful day in Jan 2014. Such an event in itself will repair some of the damage caused over the past four years.
Whether the structure of the club and its personnel will then be in position to continue as a professional organisation let alone retain such a status we can all review at a more appropriate time.
The meandering ramblings of this thread suggest it has been an all too difficult experience for many. It has certainly been a very expensive one for the club. Though some latter improvement is evident the recent accounts published for the trading year to June 2017, reveal little more than most had already surmised.
When you consider the skeleton executive and reduced squad the operational costs are disappointing. These of course are the numbers which correlate to the club falling to nigh on its lowest League position in living memory.
It is good the overall financial position as at June 2017 had not materially deteriorated from the previous year but it still left the level of debt, originallly absorbed at a level of circa £21mn, at an unprecedented circa £57mn. An increase of £36mn over a 43 month period of trading.
Add in exceptional trading receipts for player sales of circa £21mn and we have, under this administration, had a pro rata per annum funding requirement of circa £16mn.
The loss of match day revenue of circa £2mn p.a. from 2015, the nominal £1mn p.a. interest charge, the sunken costs for the incomplete training ground upgrade all play into it but really it is not just the money you spend but how you spend it and importantly the results you achieve.
The debt indicates RD was prepared to spend, yet at every key decision point he fell short of the stated business requirements of either Powell, Peeters, Luzon, (not sure Fraeye had any), Slade or Robinson while Riga was called upon (as needed) to apply the sticking plaster.
Bowyer has become the ninth "permanent" change in the managerial hot seat in 51 months.
The financial approach reminds me of a bank executive colleague who chose to bring a transaction process "in house". IT came up with a price of £10mn and a 2yr time line. He sanctioned £5mn and 18 months. He was warned.
In the final weeks IT were pulling developments left right & centre. They hit the timeline with an over spend of £2mn. It was a friggin disaster. It cost the man his job and the bank an extra £5mn and another 12 months to put it right.
You would like to think there was one saving grace beyond the club continuing to exist and much has been written about the productivity & investment in the training ground and academy. Yet the development production line of Gomez, Cousins, Poyet, Fox, Holmes-Dennis, Harriott, Pope, Konsa were in situ at the time of acquisition.
Only Berg Gudmundsson & Lookman of the assets acquired during these trading periods have been sold for materially more than the cost of acquisition with the latter of course walking in off the street, but let's not begrudge anyone their piece of good fortune.
Then consider a) a fully approved, externally funded, upgrade plan for the academy & training ground was in place at the time of the 2014 acquisition b) the sums now invested in the training ground and c) the current state of the facilities at Sparrows Lane and this investor "jewel" has a distinctly tarnished feel.
Just how much of the debt will be left with the club as this investor departs is still to be determined but on the above basis you have to question any sense of entitlement M. Duchatelet feels in respect of securing benefits from the clubs future trading potential whether it be in respect of promotion, the contingent revenues on sales already made or the future sales of Bauer, Konsa, Aribo, Fosu etc.
Anticipating a reward for simply having been there is decidedly the action of a bank manager. The difference being a bank rarely gets to control the enterprise. At some point there is a price to pay for the investment decisions you make and those who you chose to empower with your investment.
In the coming days/ weeks we will hopefully discover quite how the £57mn debt is to be accounted for in terms of settlement, deferred settlement, contingent revenues & liabilities and investor "write off".
In this industry at this level there is always a funding requirement. The unproductive profligacy beyond is quite another matter. For all this waffling about friendly debt and quasi equity ultimately you only get to spend the money once.
Every £ now spent in acquiring the club and settling/ managing this debt is a £ that cannot be spent in investing in its future.
I have read derogatory comments on the supposed wealth/ liquidity of certain prospective investors. Please recognise whoever the party/ parties maybe they will likely be the biggest investors in the history of the club in just taking their seat at the table to assume management of a debt level they had no part in creating.
I can but hope they are clear in ensuring whatever future remuneration to Duchatelet can be negotiated it does not threaten, or severely impinge upon, the clubs future financial and footballing performance.
Despite the fantasy world of the recent pages I appreciate all of the "noises off" regarding the prospective change of ownership but if it takes another week, month or 3 months this deal has to be right. No matter the information churn if we need to be patient then so be it.
For now we need one focus. A certain Mr Bowyer, his side kick and a squad of players have a job to do. It is a big ask and they are going to need all the help they can get.
Does this come in Audiobook?
I'm taking one of Grapevines posts on holiday with me this year
Is it safe to post yet? There seemed to be some very troubled souls "stalking" this thread.
It appears we all need a few moments tranquility and some "re-girding of loins" as the closing stages of the season and hopefully a takeover saga now resembling War & Peace approaches its end phase. In hindsight we should have asked for a "winter break" on this thread. You could all try Havening Techniques!
In the real world there has been much to admire over the past 12-14 days. As a result there may still be a journey of consequence to travel over the coming weeks. As Bristol showed it will not be an easy journey.
M.Duchatelet can take credit the club continues to trade enabling the current personnel to have stirred a burst of positivity and to apparently remain in place to guide us on the journey to come.
Most, as I, will exult if the journey reaches a successful conclusion and restores us to the status we held on a certain fateful day in Jan 2014. Such an event in itself will repair some of the damage caused over the past four years.
Whether the structure of the club and its personnel will then be in position to continue as a professional organisation let alone retain such a status we can all review at a more appropriate time.
The meandering ramblings of this thread suggest it has been an all too difficult experience for many. It has certainly been a very expensive one for the club. Though some latter improvement is evident the recent accounts published for the trading year to June 2017, reveal little more than most had already surmised.
When you consider the skeleton executive and reduced squad the operational costs are disappointing. These of course are the numbers which correlate to the club falling to nigh on its lowest League position in living memory.
It is good the overall financial position as at June 2017 had not materially deteriorated from the previous year but it still left the level of debt, originallly absorbed at a level of circa £21mn, at an unprecedented circa £57mn. An increase of £36mn over a 43 month period of trading.
Add in exceptional trading receipts for player sales of circa £21mn and we have, under this administration, had a pro rata per annum funding requirement of circa £16mn.
The loss of match day revenue of circa £2mn p.a. from 2015, the nominal £1mn p.a. interest charge, the sunken costs for the incomplete training ground upgrade all play into it but really it is not just the money you spend but how you spend it and importantly the results you achieve.
The debt indicates RD was prepared to spend, yet at every key decision point he fell short of the stated business requirements of either Powell, Peeters, Luzon, (not sure Fraeye had any), Slade or Robinson while Riga was called upon (as needed) to apply the sticking plaster.
Bowyer has become the ninth "permanent" change in the managerial hot seat in 51 months.
The financial approach reminds me of a bank executive colleague who chose to bring a transaction process "in house". IT came up with a price of £10mn and a 2yr time line. He sanctioned £5mn and 18 months. He was warned.
In the final weeks IT were pulling developments left right & centre. They hit the timeline with an over spend of £2mn. It was a friggin disaster. It cost the man his job and the bank an extra £5mn and another 12 months to put it right.
You would like to think there was one saving grace beyond the club continuing to exist and much has been written about the productivity & investment in the training ground and academy. Yet the development production line of Gomez, Cousins, Poyet, Fox, Holmes-Dennis, Harriott, Pope, Konsa were in situ at the time of acquisition.
Only Berg Gudmundsson & Lookman of the assets acquired during these trading periods have been sold for materially more than the cost of acquisition with the latter of course walking in off the street, but let's not begrudge anyone their piece of good fortune.
Then consider a) a fully approved, externally funded, upgrade plan for the academy & training ground was in place at the time of the 2014 acquisition b) the sums now invested in the training ground and c) the current state of the facilities at Sparrows Lane and this investor "jewel" has a distinctly tarnished feel.
Just how much of the debt will be left with the club as this investor departs is still to be determined but on the above basis you have to question any sense of entitlement M. Duchatelet feels in respect of securing benefits from the clubs future trading potential whether it be in respect of promotion, the contingent revenues on sales already made or the future sales of Bauer, Konsa, Aribo, Fosu etc.
Anticipating a reward for simply having been there is decidedly the action of a bank manager. The difference being a bank rarely gets to control the enterprise. At some point there is a price to pay for the investment decisions you make and those who you chose to empower with your investment.
In the coming days/ weeks we will hopefully discover quite how the £57mn debt is to be accounted for in terms of settlement, deferred settlement, contingent revenues & liabilities and investor "write off".
In this industry at this level there is always a funding requirement. The unproductive profligacy beyond is quite another matter. For all this waffling about friendly debt and quasi equity ultimately you only get to spend the money once.
Every £ now spent in acquiring the club and settling/ managing this debt is a £ that cannot be spent in investing in its future.
I have read derogatory comments on the supposed wealth/ liquidity of certain prospective investors. Please recognise whoever the party/ parties maybe they will likely be the biggest investors in the history of the club in just taking their seat at the table to assume management of a debt level they had no part in creating.
I can but hope they are clear in ensuring whatever future remuneration to Duchatelet can be negotiated it does not threaten, or severely impinge upon, the clubs future financial and footballing performance.
Despite the fantasy world of the recent pages I appreciate all of the "noises off" regarding the prospective change of ownership but if it takes another week, month or 3 months this deal has to be right. No matter the information churn if we need to be patient then so be it.
For now we need one focus. A certain Mr Bowyer, his side kick and a squad of players have a job to do. It is a big ask and they are going to need all the help they can get.
Does this come in Audiobook?
I'm taking one of Grapevines posts on holiday with me this year
Comments
BTW, I think @foresthillred is number 2
Oh and by the way, if any fucker fancies trying to rein me in using some kind of pathetic bouncy Zorb ball, I will use a flamethrower on you. Simples.
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/comment/3150192#Comment_3150192
What would be the value of Charlton based on the same criteria? How much were the gate receipts for last season?
The Trust board had discussed the pros and cons of requesting a meeting with RM but had not approached RM to try to set a meeting up before the CARD statement was issued.
CAST is part of CARD and fully supported the call for a protest, so it would have been strange, to say the least, if that had nearly sabotaged a pre-arranged meeting with Richard Murray.
Thanks to @Pico for clarifying.
It appears we all need a few moments tranquility and some "re-girding of loins" as the closing stages of the season and hopefully a takeover saga now resembling War & Peace approaches its end phase. In hindsight we should have asked for a "winter break" on this thread. You could all try Havening Techniques!
In the real world there has been much to admire over the past 12-14 days. As a result there may still be a journey of consequence to travel over the coming weeks. As Bristol showed it will not be an easy journey.
M.Duchatelet can take credit the club continues to trade enabling the current personnel to have stirred a burst of positivity and to apparently remain in place to guide us on the journey to come.
Most, as I, will exult if the journey reaches a successful conclusion and restores us to the status we held on a certain fateful day in Jan 2014. Such an event in itself will repair some of the damage caused over the past four years.
Whether the structure of the club and its personnel will then be in position to continue as a professional organisation let alone retain such a status we can all review at a more appropriate time.
The meandering ramblings of this thread suggest it has been an all too difficult experience for many. It has certainly been a very expensive one for the club. Though some latter improvement is evident the recent accounts published for the trading year to June 2017, reveal little more than most had already surmised.
When you consider the skeleton executive and reduced squad the operational costs are disappointing. These of course are the numbers which correlate to the club falling to nigh on its lowest League position in living memory.
It is good the overall financial position as at June 2017 had not materially deteriorated from the previous year but it still left the level of debt, originallly absorbed at a level of circa £21mn, at an unprecedented circa £57mn. An increase of £36mn over a 43 month period of trading.
Add in exceptional trading receipts for player sales of circa £21mn and we have, under this administration, had a pro rata per annum funding requirement of circa £16mn.
The loss of match day revenue of circa £2mn p.a. from 2015, the nominal £1mn p.a. interest charge, the sunken costs for the incomplete training ground upgrade all play into it but really it is not just the money you spend but how you spend it and importantly the results you achieve.
The debt indicates RD was prepared to spend, yet at every key decision point he fell short of the stated business requirements of either Powell, Peeters, Luzon, (not sure Fraeye had any), Slade or Robinson while Riga was called upon (as needed) to apply the sticking plaster.
Bowyer has become the ninth "permanent" change in the managerial hot seat in 51 months.
The financial approach reminds me of a bank executive colleague who chose to bring a transaction process "in house". IT came up with a price of £10mn and a 2yr time line. He sanctioned £5mn and 18 months. He was warned.
In the final weeks IT were pulling developments left right & centre. They hit the timeline with an over spend of £2mn. It was a friggin disaster. It cost the man his job and the bank an extra £5mn and another 12 months to put it right.
You would like to think there was one saving grace beyond the club continuing to exist and much has been written about the productivity & investment in the training ground and academy. Yet the development production line of Gomez, Cousins, Poyet, Fox, Holmes-Dennis, Harriott, Pope, Konsa were in situ at the time of acquisition.
Only Berg Gudmundsson & Lookman of the assets acquired during these trading periods have been sold for materially more than the cost of acquisition with the latter of course walking in off the street, but let's not begrudge anyone their piece of good fortune.
Then consider a) a fully approved, externally funded, upgrade plan for the academy & training ground was in place at the time of the 2014 acquisition b) the sums now invested in the training ground and c) the current state of the facilities at Sparrows Lane and this investor "jewel" has a distinctly tarnished feel.
Just how much of the debt will be left with the club as this investor departs is still to be determined but on the above basis you have to question any sense of entitlement M. Duchatelet feels in respect of securing benefits from the clubs future trading potential whether it be in respect of promotion, the contingent revenues on sales already made or the future sales of Bauer, Konsa, Aribo, Fosu etc.
Anticipating a reward for simply having been there is decidedly the action of a bank manager. The difference being a bank rarely gets to control the enterprise. At some point there is a price to pay for the investment decisions you make and those who you chose to empower with your investment.
In the coming days/ weeks we will hopefully discover quite how the £57mn debt is to be accounted for in terms of settlement, deferred settlement, contingent revenues & liabilities and investor "write off".
In this industry at this level there is always a funding requirement. The unproductive profligacy beyond is quite another matter. For all this waffling about friendly debt and quasi equity ultimately you only get to spend the money once.
Every £ now spent in acquiring the club and settling/ managing this debt is a £ that cannot be spent in investing in its future.
I have read derogatory comments on the supposed wealth/ liquidity of certain prospective investors. Please recognise whoever the party/ parties maybe they will likely be the biggest investors in the history of the club in just taking their seat at the table to assume management of a debt level they had no part in creating.
I can but hope they are clear in ensuring whatever future remuneration to Duchatelet can be negotiated it does not threaten, or severely impinge upon, the clubs future financial and footballing performance.
Despite the fantasy world of the recent pages I appreciate all of the "noises off" regarding the prospective change of ownership but if it takes another week, month or 3 months this deal has to be right. No matter the information churn if we need to be patient then so be it.
For now we need one focus. A certain Mr Bowyer, his side kick and a squad of players have a job to do. It is a big ask and they are going to need all the help they can get.
Does this come in Audiobook?
I am constantly berating other people on other threads to only post contentious stuff if they have the sources to back it up. Had I followed my own advice last night, and just checked back on the relevant email threads to remind myself, I would simply not have posted what I did, and am now going to remove the original post.
Apologies particularly to my fellow Trust and CARD colleagues. I will now spend the rest of the day kicking myself and confining my Charlton Life to the match thread.
;-)