I think some people need to read this a realise that it's not only RDs ownership that is currently preventing us being a "championship club with premiership asperations". The club can't afford to pay the wages required to compete, over any length of time, at the top of the championship. We may get lucky one season, but it's unlikely.
Unless we get an owner willing to put in say £30 million a season it's not economically viable. People talk about an "owner with the ambition to back the manager" what they mean is an owner willing to spunk their own money up the wall.
We are long passed "local boy made good" ownership model. My fear now is that noone who can afford to buy and run us, in a way most people want, would be stupid enough to do it. If Roland decides he isn't getting his money back and sells the club on the cheap you open up the market to the likes of Ken Anderson and the chancers at Sunderland (that take over could go very ugly, very soon). Be careful what you wish for.
Agreed, some of those wages numbers are ridiculous. To me there needs to be greater coordination between the leagues so that you don't have teams running up terrible losses, but "getting away with it" by getting promotion, when Birmingham got hit by a points deduction
Just as an aside, are the football community in general happy about the Birmingham “punishment”? I only ask, because I’m certainly not, but there doesn’t seem to be any uproar about this at all. I can’t see that they actually got “punished” at all. There was never more than a slim chance that they would be relegated as a result of their points deduction and they were never likely to reach the play offs without the deduction, so their punishment was effectively nonexistent. (Well, they lost whatever they lost for coming 17th rather than 14th which, presumably, is peanuts.) Whether they should have been punished at all while others “get away with it” is another argument, but I’m still pretty annoyed that they didn’t hold off the deduction until the start of the upcoming season.
So can we 'blame' Duchatelet? In my view yes, no-one forced him to buy the club, and it appears that he didn't do his homework. He's also wasted a LOT of money with poor hiring, and a flawed strategy in a number of ways, all of which has been rehearsed many times on this site.
Sorry I didn't mean its not Roland's fault he has wasted so much money and didn't have a credible plan. I ment that if he went tomorrow unless the new owner was prepared to put in a crazy amount of money we wouldn't be much better off.
Anyone that is prepared to spunk so much money, on a club they have no emotional link with, is probably not fit and proper in the 1st place. This is a problem the EFL now have, do you let an owner you know to be a risk take over a club or do you let it go into liquidation? I belive that was a choice they had to make with Sunderland in the summer.
Not sure I agree, surely the prestige and money from owning a Premier League club is a factor?
Absolutely this. Abramovich was not a Chelsea supporter when he bought them.
Abramovich bought Chelsea when they had qualified for the champions league. The money he threw at Chelsea, that was seen as obscene at the time, is chicken feed compared to what has happened at City.
If your prepared to risk, say for sake of argument 150-200 million, on a club like us, with out any guarantee of even getting to the premier league you need your head testing. Or you have serious cash, if your in the later camp you might as well buy Arsenal.
Ridiculous post. Risk 150 to 200 million. Where did I say that.
So can we 'blame' Duchatelet? In my view yes, no-one forced him to buy the club, and it appears that he didn't do his homework. He's also wasted a LOT of money with poor hiring, and a flawed strategy in a number of ways, all of which has been rehearsed many times on this site.
Sorry I didn't mean its not Roland's fault he has wasted so much money and didn't have a credible plan. I ment that if he went tomorrow unless the new owner was prepared to put in a crazy amount of money we wouldn't be much better off.
Anyone that is prepared to spunk so much money, on a club they have no emotional link with, is probably not fit and proper in the 1st place. This is a problem the EFL now have, do you let an owner you know to be a risk take over a club or do you let it go into liquidation? I belive that was a choice they had to make with Sunderland in the summer.
Not sure I agree, surely the prestige and money from owning a Premier League club is a factor?
Absolutely this. Abramovich was not a Chelsea supporter when he bought them.
Abramovich bought Chelsea when they had qualified for the champions league. The money he threw at Chelsea, that was seen as obscene at the time, is chicken feed compared to what has happened at City.
If your prepared to risk, say for sake of argument 150-200 million, on a club like us, with out any guarantee of even getting to the premier league you need your head testing. Or you have serious cash, if your in the later camp you might as well buy Arsenal.
Ridiculous post. Risk 150 to 200 million. Where did I say that.
Sorry I didn't mean to imply you had, I quoted to say about Abramovic. Then added something else.
So can we 'blame' Duchatelet? In my view yes, no-one forced him to buy the club, and it appears that he didn't do his homework. He's also wasted a LOT of money with poor hiring, and a flawed strategy in a number of ways, all of which has been rehearsed many times on this site.
Sorry I didn't mean its not Roland's fault he has wasted so much money and didn't have a credible plan. I ment that if he went tomorrow unless the new owner was prepared to put in a crazy amount of money we wouldn't be much better off.
Anyone that is prepared to spunk so much money, on a club they have no emotional link with, is probably not fit and proper in the 1st place. This is a problem the EFL now have, do you let an owner you know to be a risk take over a club or do you let it go into liquidation? I belive that was a choice they had to make with Sunderland in the summer.
Not sure I agree, surely the prestige and money from owning a Premier League club is a factor?
Absolutely this. Abramovich was not a Chelsea supporter when he bought them.
Abramovich bought Chelsea when they had qualified for the champions league. The money he threw at Chelsea, that was seen as obscene at the time, is chicken feed compared to what has happened at City.
If your prepared to risk, say for sake of argument 150-200 million, on a club like us, with out any guarantee of even getting to the premier league you need your head testing. Or you have serious cash, if your in the later camp you might as well buy Arsenal.
Ridiculous post. Risk 150 to 200 million. Where did I say that.
Sorry I didn't mean to imply you had, I quoted to say about Abramovic. Then added something else.
The EFL needs to tell the Premiership that under the current top-heavy arrangements the clubs are not going to have promotion and relegation into the FAPL. Of course the top three will make their own arrangements but the teams coming down will have to start in the Conference or lower. Initial pain until salaries align with reduced income and the EFL TV rights would have to go elsewhere (possibly a plus). That is the only way I can see this crazy merry-go-round stabilising.
Hilarious, as if anyone with half a brain would accept that. The Prem League will tell the EFL where to go as they always do & the EFL will say sorry, Infact the EPL would possibly welcome no promotion and relegation.
So can we 'blame' Duchatelet? In my view yes, no-one forced him to buy the club, and it appears that he didn't do his homework. He's also wasted a LOT of money with poor hiring, and a flawed strategy in a number of ways, all of which has been rehearsed many times on this site.
Sorry I didn't mean its not Roland's fault he has wasted so much money and didn't have a credible plan. I ment that if he went tomorrow unless the new owner was prepared to put in a crazy amount of money we wouldn't be much better off.
Anyone that is prepared to spunk so much money, on a club they have no emotional link with, is probably not fit and proper in the 1st place. This is a problem the EFL now have, do you let an owner you know to be a risk take over a club or do you let it go into liquidation? I belive that was a choice they had to make with Sunderland in the summer.
Not sure I agree, surely the prestige and money from owning a Premier League club is a factor?
Absolutely this. Abramovich was not a Chelsea supporter when he bought them.
There is a school of thought that Abramovic got into it for money laundering reasons and also as someone high profile he was less likely to be assasinated.
The idea you abolish the Premier League, and then the money comes back, is for the birds.
As is the idea that while it exists as a separate entity, the FAPL will ever allow more than the minimum to dribble away from its clutches. That is why the Bundesliga is under the German FA, and why Bundesliga clubs do not find themselves flirting with bankruptcy.
How would you ensure a more equitable share down through the leagues and to the grass roots?
So can we 'blame' Duchatelet? In my view yes, no-one forced him to buy the club, and it appears that he didn't do his homework. He's also wasted a LOT of money with poor hiring, and a flawed strategy in a number of ways, all of which has been rehearsed many times on this site.
Sorry I didn't mean its not Roland's fault he has wasted so much money and didn't have a credible plan. I ment that if he went tomorrow unless the new owner was prepared to put in a crazy amount of money we wouldn't be much better off.
Anyone that is prepared to spunk so much money, on a club they have no emotional link with, is probably not fit and proper in the 1st place. This is a problem the EFL now have, do you let an owner you know to be a risk take over a club or do you let it go into liquidation? I belive that was a choice they had to make with Sunderland in the summer.
Not sure I agree, surely the prestige and money from owning a Premier League club is a factor?
Absolutely this. Abramovich was not a Chelsea supporter when he bought them.
Abramovich bought Chelsea when they had qualified for the champions league. The money he threw at Chelsea, that was seen as obscene at the time, is chicken feed compared to what has happened at City.
If your prepared to risk, say for sake of argument 150-200 million, on a club like us, with out any guarantee of even getting to the premier league you need your head testing. Or you have serious cash, if your in the later camp you might as well buy Arsenal.
Ridiculous post. Risk 150 to 200 million. Where did I say that.
Thank you for taking the pressure off my £70M calculation.
So can we 'blame' Duchatelet? In my view yes, no-one forced him to buy the club, and it appears that he didn't do his homework. He's also wasted a LOT of money with poor hiring, and a flawed strategy in a number of ways, all of which has been rehearsed many times on this site.
Sorry I didn't mean its not Roland's fault he has wasted so much money and didn't have a credible plan. I ment that if he went tomorrow unless the new owner was prepared to put in a crazy amount of money we wouldn't be much better off.
Anyone that is prepared to spunk so much money, on a club they have no emotional link with, is probably not fit and proper in the 1st place. This is a problem the EFL now have, do you let an owner you know to be a risk take over a club or do you let it go into liquidation? I belive that was a choice they had to make with Sunderland in the summer.
Not sure I agree, surely the prestige and money from owning a Premier League club is a factor?
Absolutely this. Abramovich was not a Chelsea supporter when he bought them.
Abramovich bought Chelsea when they had qualified for the champions league. The money he threw at Chelsea, that was seen as obscene at the time, is chicken feed compared to what has happened at City.
If your prepared to risk, say for sake of argument 150-200 million, on a club like us, with out any guarantee of even getting to the premier league you need your head testing. Or you have serious cash, if your in the later camp you might as well buy Arsenal.
Ridiculous post. Risk 150 to 200 million. Where did I say that.
Thank you for taking the pressure off my £70M calculation.
Can't be arsed to read all the posts this afternoon, but all I'd say about the forthcoming Championship season is that we just need to stay in it & stabilise for a couple of years.Do a Millwall & just stay up. Don't need to spend big & "spunk £30m"......just need to be better than 3 other teams. I'm looking forward to playing Leeds, Stoke & WBA and having a (nearly full) JS stand.......rather than playing Accrington & Burton who bring less than 300 fans.
Can't be arsed to read all the posts this afternoon, but all I'd say about the forthcoming Championship season is that we just need to stay in it & stabilise for a couple of years.Do a Millwall & just stay up. Don't need to spend big & "spunk £30m"......just need to be better than 3 other teams. I'm looking forward to playing Leeds, Stoke & WBA and having a (nearly full) JS stand.......rather than playing Accrington & Burton who bring less than 300 fans.
So agree with you. Re-sign Boyer, JJ, get Bielek and Bauer back, keep Taylor, grab Eaves and Lamerias and a few other frees and call it a day. I think our squad cohesion is superb and we are over-reacting to relegation fears. I think our squad from this season is already as good as at least the bottom 1/3 of the Championship and maybe better than that. I think the goal is to stay up and re-evaluate at season’s end. I am in no hurry for the Premier League.
if we could largely keep this side together including the loan players and add 4 quality players plus 6 squad players we could be surprised. this team has been outstanding. if RD wasnt such an imbecile he could make that happen and try to get us into the prem where he really could sell the club for a profit.
if we could largely keep this side together including the loan players and add 4 quality players plus 6 squad players we could be surprised. this team has been outstanding. if RD wasnt such an imbecile he could make that happen and try to get us into the prem where he really could sell the club for a profit.
The standard in The Championship is way above what we faced last year. We're a bottom 6 side currently with only one goalscoring centre forward and in desperate need of squad strength in depth.
if we could largely keep this side together including the loan players and add 4 quality players plus 6 squad players we could be surprised. this team has been outstanding. if RD wasnt such an imbecile he could make that happen and try to get us into the prem where he really could sell the club for a profit.
The standard in The Championship is way above what we faced last year. We're a bottom 6 side currently with only one goalscoring centre forward and in desperate need of squad strength in depth.
If you had your way how much net transfer money would we need to spend to not be bottom 6 this season?
if we could largely keep this side together including the loan players and add 4 quality players plus 6 squad players we could be surprised. this team has been outstanding. if RD wasnt such an imbecile he could make that happen and try to get us into the prem where he really could sell the club for a profit.
The standard in The Championship is way above what we faced last year. We're a bottom 6 side currently with only one goalscoring centre forward and in desperate need of squad strength in depth.
If you had your way how much net transfer money would we need to spend to not be bottom 6 this season?
I reckon we need to spend at least £5 million in extra wages and transfer fees / signing on fees.... MINIMUM
if we could largely keep this side together including the loan players and add 4 quality players plus 6 squad players we could be surprised. this team has been outstanding. if RD wasnt such an imbecile he could make that happen and try to get us into the prem where he really could sell the club for a profit.
The standard in The Championship is way above what we faced last year. We're a bottom 6 side currently with only one goalscoring centre forward and in desperate need of squad strength in depth.
If you had your way how much net transfer money would we need to spend to not be bottom 6 this season?
I reckon we need to spend at least £5 million in extra wages and transfer fees / signing on fees.... MINIMUM
Agreed.
Let’s just assume we do keep Bauer, Aribo, and Forster-Caskey. We still need to bring in a keeper, a centre back, a left back, a defensive midfielder, two centre midfielders, three attacking midfielders, three strikers. That’s 12 players.
That isn’t me being greedy, we need more depth this season, this is a step up and the young players like Lapslie will get found out, the older ones like Pratley may be a little passed it now unless he were to drop to centre back. We have lost Maxwell, Purrington, Bielik, Cullen, Reeves, Williams, Marshall, Fosu (even if he signs, he doesn’t stay), Vetokele, Parker, Ajose.
You can argue some of them didn’t feature much at all, Marshall, Ajose, Fosu for example, but we still need the numbers, we still need 4 strikers, we still need enough midfielders and options from the bench. It’s a 46 game league season with more quality than League One. We can get away with battling performances away at Wycombe for example, with a midfield who aren’t the best or greatest on the ball, but we can’t get away with it in the Championship.
The EFL needs to tell the Premiership that under the current top-heavy arrangements the clubs are not going to have promotion and relegation into the FAPL. Of course the top three will make their own arrangements but the teams coming down will have to start in the Conference or lower. Initial pain until salaries align with reduced income and the EFL TV rights would have to go elsewhere (possibly a plus). That is the only way I can see this crazy merry-go-round stabilising.
Hilarious, as if anyone with half a brain would accept that. The Prem League will tell the EFL where to go as they always do & the EFL will say sorry, Infact the EPL would possibly welcome no promotion and relegation.
Whilst i agree with you CE there must be a way the EFL could call upon anti competition legislation as surely the PL parachute payments go way beyond protecting a clubs finances from the shock of relegation and well into financial doping and assistance for future promotion. I asked Richard Murrey that once when he was moaning about EPPP rules i think it was but he just said it was for someone else to argue which i suspect most owners say hence nothing ever gets done
Can't be arsed to read all the posts this afternoon, but all I'd say about the forthcoming Championship season is that we just need to stay in it & stabilise for a couple of years.Do a Millwall & just stay up. Don't need to spend big & "spunk £30m"......just need to be better than 3 other teams. I'm looking forward to playing Leeds, Stoke & WBA and having a (nearly full) JS stand.......rather than playing Accrington & Burton who bring less than 300 fans.
Nice in theory and about 15 years ago the model was right... but i am not convinced we are a viable business even at this level so 3 years slow growth means 3 years building losses and bloating the squad with average players on contracts. The time is now for a new owner to step in, wipe the majority of our debt away- say PP £20M which would be debt funded and RD haircuts the rest, new owner has a blank canvas with a very low cost squad to go and have a real go and all the summer to sort it. I expect RD to miss the boat however.
The EFL needs to tell the Premiership that under the current top-heavy arrangements the clubs are not going to have promotion and relegation into the FAPL. Of course the top three will make their own arrangements but the teams coming down will have to start in the Conference or lower. Initial pain until salaries align with reduced income and the EFL TV rights would have to go elsewhere (possibly a plus). That is the only way I can see this crazy merry-go-round stabilising.
Hilarious, as if anyone with half a brain would accept that. The Prem League will tell the EFL where to go as they always do & the EFL will say sorry, Infact the EPL would possibly welcome no promotion and relegation.
Whilst i agree with you CE there must be a way the EFL could call upon anti competition legislation as surely the PL parachute payments go way beyond protecting a clubs finances from the shock of relegation and well into financial doping and assistance for future promotion. I asked Richard Murrey that once when he was moaning about EPPP rules i think it was but he just said it was for someone else to argue which i suspect most owners say hence nothing ever gets done
The Premier League say jump and the EFL say how high?
FFP rules were changed drastically after RD bought Charlton, because the Premier League threatened to reduce their payments to the EFL. So the EFL rolled over.
if we could largely keep this side together including the loan players and add 4 quality players plus 6 squad players we could be surprised. this team has been outstanding. if RD wasnt such an imbecile he could make that happen and try to get us into the prem where he really could sell the club for a profit.
The standard in The Championship is way above what we faced last year. We're a bottom 6 side currently with only one goalscoring centre forward and in desperate need of squad strength in depth.
If you had your way how much net transfer money would we need to spend to not be bottom 6 this season?
I reckon we need to spend at least £5 million in extra wages and transfer fees / signing on fees.... MINIMUM
5 million is about 100k a week, give or take. That's 5 goodish championship players. Most would want a 3 year contract, so that's a 15 million investment. Before any transfer fees. Would 5 players be enough to keep you up? Maybe, but it's a lot of money to gamble with.
if we could largely keep this side together including the loan players and add 4 quality players plus 6 squad players we could be surprised. this team has been outstanding. if RD wasnt such an imbecile he could make that happen and try to get us into the prem where he really could sell the club for a profit.
The standard in The Championship is way above what we faced last year. We're a bottom 6 side currently with only one goalscoring centre forward and in desperate need of squad strength in depth.
If you had your way how much net transfer money would we need to spend to not be bottom 6 this season?
I reckon we need to spend at least £5 million in extra wages and transfer fees / signing on fees.... MINIMUM
More like £10M, or a 100% increase. Take a gander at the Transfer thread.
if we could largely keep this side together including the loan players and add 4 quality players plus 6 squad players we could be surprised. this team has been outstanding. if RD wasnt such an imbecile he could make that happen and try to get us into the prem where he really could sell the club for a profit.
The standard in The Championship is way above what we faced last year. We're a bottom 6 side currently with only one goalscoring centre forward and in desperate need of squad strength in depth.
If you had your way how much net transfer money would we need to spend to not be bottom 6 this season?
I reckon we need to spend at least £5 million in extra wages and transfer fees / signing on fees.... MINIMUM
5 million is about 100k a week, give or take. That's 5 goodish championship players. Most would want a 3 year contract, so that's a 15 million investment. Before any transfer fees. Would 5 players be enough to keep you up? Maybe, but it's a lot of money to gamble with.
Five million sounds a reasonable figure to me. It would need to be spent well, not pissed up the wall as in 2014 and 2015, but it would give Bowyer a chance.
Even now you must be able to sign decent Championship players for less than £20k a week. The typical salary of an experienced Championship player at Charlton five years ago was about £5k. The average Championship wage bill is only 50 per cent higher now and that is distorted by large payments from clubs aiming for promotion or coming out of the PL with parachute payments.
Even if the average player salary cost across the division is £20k, which it won’t be given the other football and non-football costs in the total, It’s reasonable to assume you can sign decent players on £10k-£12k.
Transfer fees aren’t a recurring cost and astute signings should have a potential resale value if the team is relegated. It’s untrue that most new players sign three year deals - Forster-Caskey, Fosu, Page, Clarke, Reeves, Marshall, Taylor, for example - but that is a trade-off against resale value. In any event, Duchatelet has been shown to favour loan players.
For me the point is more that the average player will command significantly more than Charlton were paying in L1, and the evidence suggests that consequence of trying to stay up paying L1 wages, sooner or later, tends to be playing in L1.
Anyway, if Duchatelet doesn’t like the idea of spending more money he knows what to do.
Comments
I only ask, because I’m certainly not, but there doesn’t seem to be any uproar about this at all.
I can’t see that they actually got “punished” at all. There was never more than a slim chance that they would be relegated as a result of their points deduction and they were never likely to reach the play offs without the deduction, so their punishment was effectively nonexistent. (Well, they lost whatever they lost for coming 17th rather than 14th which, presumably, is peanuts.)
Whether they should have been punished at all while others “get away with it” is another argument, but I’m still pretty annoyed that they didn’t hold off the deduction until the start of the upcoming season.
Risk 150 to 200 million.
Where did I say that.
My apologies
The Prem League will tell the EFL where to go as they always do & the EFL will say sorry,
Infact the EPL would possibly welcome no promotion and relegation.
How would you ensure a more equitable share down through the leagues and to the grass roots?
Let’s just assume we do keep Bauer, Aribo, and Forster-Caskey. We still need to bring in a keeper, a centre back, a left back, a defensive midfielder, two centre midfielders, three attacking midfielders, three strikers. That’s 12 players.
That isn’t me being greedy, we need more depth this season, this is a step up and the young players like Lapslie will get found out, the older ones like Pratley may be a little passed it now unless he were to drop to centre back. We have lost Maxwell, Purrington, Bielik, Cullen, Reeves, Williams, Marshall, Fosu (even if he signs, he doesn’t stay), Vetokele, Parker, Ajose.
You can argue some of them didn’t feature much at all, Marshall, Ajose, Fosu for example, but we still need the numbers, we still need 4 strikers, we still need enough midfielders and options from the bench. It’s a 46 game league season with more quality than League One. We can get away with battling performances away at Wycombe for example, with a midfield who aren’t the best or greatest on the ball, but we can’t get away with it in the Championship.
FFP rules were changed drastically after RD bought Charlton, because the Premier League threatened to reduce their payments to the EFL. So the EFL rolled over.
Pull your finger out RD!
Even now you must be able to sign decent Championship players for less than £20k a week. The typical salary of an experienced Championship player at Charlton five years ago was about £5k. The average Championship wage bill is only 50 per cent higher now and that is distorted by large payments from clubs aiming for promotion or coming out of the PL with parachute payments.
Even if the average player salary cost across the division is £20k, which it won’t be given the other football and non-football costs in the total, It’s reasonable to assume you can sign decent players on £10k-£12k.
Transfer fees aren’t a recurring cost and astute signings should have a potential resale value if the team is relegated. It’s untrue that most new players sign three year deals - Forster-Caskey, Fosu, Page, Clarke, Reeves, Marshall, Taylor, for example - but that is a trade-off against resale value. In any event, Duchatelet has been shown to favour loan players.
For me the point is more that the average player will command significantly more than Charlton were paying in L1, and the evidence suggests that consequence of trying to stay up paying L1 wages, sooner or later, tends to be playing in L1.
Anyway, if Duchatelet doesn’t like the idea of spending more money he knows what to do.