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Charlton v Wolves - Post Match Views

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    seth plum said:

    Am I the only one who thinks digging out Aherne-Grant is a crying shame?
    I am not saying he is the next big thing, but he is less than 18 years and 3 months, and he was being pitched into his mess even before he turned 18.
    Afobe of Wolves is 22 and as got 134 league gams under his belt and 41 goals.

    I'd think it a shame if he was actually putting a shift in rather than casually jogging about looking unfit.
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    Yes, Seth: you are one of hundreds of thousands who say: "Our youth team is so marvellous and talented". The obverse it true: We were skinned yesterday by Wolves - who have the most fantastic youth team, able to come to London and win.

    Diego Poyet: all that fuss you made. He played 23 games and never once got over the half-way line. But what a hero he is! - shipping goals at MacDons, if not on the bench.

    We need tough players, Seth. Look at our opponents: at The Valley they pass from here to there - and pass by our peripheral interjections - they carry on, 1-0, 2-0. I would sack the whole lot at Sparrows Lane.

    There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be in the Prem. Leicester have done it. And Palace. Stoke. Southampton. Norwich.

    Oh no, no, no, no, no, little old Charlton can't do that! We have a fabulously wealthy owner, and appallingly bad players.

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    4-2-4 was it 4-2-2-2? Surely we could have tried 4-2-3-1 with Vaz te in the striker role? Anyway not enough midfield solidity and anyone who says we looked rubbish up front, we probably did but if you don't have a midfield, Suarez would trouble to score. Maybe. And even Colin must recognise Vaz Te and Makienok aren't Suarez.
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    Yes, Seth: you are one of hundreds of thousands who say: "Our youth team is so marvellous and talented". The obverse it true: We were skinned yesterday by Wolves - who have the most fantastic youth team, able to come to London and win.

    Diego Poyet: all that fuss you made. He played 23 games and never once got over the half-way line. But what a hero he is! - shipping goals at MacDons, if not on the bench.

    We need tough players, Seth. Look at our opponents: at The Valley they pass from here to there - and pass by our peripheral interjections - they carry on, 1-0, 2-0. I would sack the whole lot at Sparrows Lane.

    There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be in the Prem. Leicester have done it. And Palace. Stoke. Southampton. Norwich.

    Oh no, no, no, no, no, little old Charlton can't do that! We have a fabulously wealthy owner, and appallingly bad players.

    Fabulously tight owner ...
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    What exactly has Moussa done to upset Fraeye so much? Is it because he has previous English league experience and that's a no-no? If Fraeye is going to insist on playing 4-2-3-1 then playing Moussa in his natural position at number 10 seems like a logical move. We barely saw anything of Moussa last season but I thought he looked ok shunted out left in his brief appearances this season so you'd think he's get a look in. But no, we stick our centre forwards at number 10 because why the hell would decades worth of tactics count for anything?
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    Yes, Seth: you are one of hundreds of thousands who say: "Our youth team is so marvellous and talented". The obverse it true: We were skinned yesterday by Wolves - who have the most fantastic youth team, able to come to London and win.

    Diego Poyet: all that fuss you made. He played 23 games and never once got over the half-way line. But what a hero he is! - shipping goals at MacDons, if not on the bench.

    We need tough players, Seth. Look at our opponents: at The Valley they pass from here to there - and pass by our peripheral interjections - they carry on, 1-0, 2-0. I would sack the whole lot at Sparrows Lane.

    There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be in the Prem. Leicester have done it. And Palace. Stoke. Southampton. Norwich.

    Oh no, no, no, no, no, little old Charlton can't do that! We have a fabulously wealthy owner, and appallingly bad players.

    You have lifted the scales from my eyes thanks.

    When watching the U21's and U18's as I do from time to time, although dickplumb is far more authoritative than me, and see those Charlton teams get the better of nearly every team they play, I should blimmin well realise that measured against their contemporaries we are actually a very poor set up. The reason being that they are not playing in the real word of first team football.


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    seth plum said:

    Am I the only one who thinks digging out Aherne-Grant is a crying shame?
    I am not saying he is the next big thing, but he is less than 18 years and 3 months, and he was being pitched into his mess even before he turned 18.
    Afobe of Wolves is 22 and as got 134 league gams under his belt and 41 goals.

    Seth, you're not the only one, no.

    At 18, 19 or 20 players are still apprentices learning their trade. Ideally they should be cutting their teeth in the under-21 side - isn't that why we have one and why it's considered junior to the main squad?

    At their stage in their careers is it right to put them centre stage for 90 minutes where they will be criticised for their performance? Ok that may be fair criticism within the scope of the whole team but is it fair given the level of experience they have? I'm not suggesting that they are wrapped in cotton wool - just that the feedback they get needs to be constructive for them to learn from and not to be slagged off by. That should apply to all the players really - but is hardly just to an apprentice.

    What is more of a crying shame is that we have become reliant on the likes of KAG and Lookman. And it's even worse that they are in a team which is at best demoralised and downhearted because it's being managed by a the third bloke in a row who can't tell his arsehole from his elbow and has alienated the dressing room.
    Even the experienced and long standing members of the team are not performing to their standards. I'm sure they find us lot getting on their backs hurtful enough so how can our under-21s be expected to take it well? It's hard not to be critical and I'm probably as guilty as the next man in being reactive rather than looking at the big picture - which is more akin to a circus than a football club.
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    seth plum said:

    What's even worse is soon the subs bench will consist of unborn children.

    Belgian ones, though
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    edited December 2015
    His career isn't over, he just isn't ready yet. Ideally he would be loaned to a league one or two club to help is development.
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    Are we looking for a new manager? I've heard nothing. Would anyone want to come given the shambles that the club is now in?
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    4-2-4 was it 4-2-2-2? Surely we could have tried 4-2-3-1 with Vaz te in the striker role? Anyway not enough midfield solidity and anyone who says we looked rubbish up front, we probably did but if you don't have a midfield, Suarez would trouble to score. Maybe. And even Colin must recognise Vaz Te and Makienok aren't Suarez.

    as I wrote above, our current squad is neither talented not clever enough to play any fancy systems and 'the manager' should realise this, stop fucking about with experimentation and get the team playing 4 4 2 .. if that means long balls up field, keeping the ball away from our area and trying to nick a point or three, so be it .. this is no time to be playing fancy Dan football, it's a time to get stuck in and get back to basics otherwise we are definitely headed for the dustbin
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    seth plum said:

    Am I the only one who thinks digging out Aherne-Grant is a crying shame?
    I am not saying he is the next big thing, but he is less than 18 years and 3 months, and he was being pitched into his mess even before he turned 18.
    Afobe of Wolves is 22 and as got 134 league gams under his belt and 41 goals.

    Yup agreed Seth... Was only last October when he was the one shining light coming on in the 3-0 defeat against Fulham (Away).

    The problem though is Joe Gomez... Because he shot on to the stage at 17 for the club, a lot of people will think that EVERY academy product has to instantly be as good (If not better)... Anyone who isnt as good as Gomez isnt worth their place on the team.

    i.e. a few weeks ago people were saying that Holmes-Dennis should start ahead of Fox, when it happened, the views changed to say that Tarieq isnt good enough yet, once again a short break from the team and the pendulum has swayed once more with him
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    Most people say that fox is not good enough and will never be good enough at this level. This may because he himself was introduced before he learned how to time a oass
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    I don't think it's a shame to dig out KAG, much the same as I didn't when it was Joe Piggot receiving criticism. If you're not good enough, you're not good enough.

    The shameful thing here is that players like KAG and Lennon are being chucked in at the deepest end possible before they are ready.
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    Peter_G said:

    Five of us met in a pub in Chislehurst after the game for our usual post match pints. Between us we buy 7 season tickets and have been doing so for donkey's years, through thick and (mostly) thin. We all agreed that we will not be renewing if it's League 1 next season.

    Glory hunters the lot of you !!!
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    A depressingly predictable afternoon and an easy win for a very pedestrian Wolves side. We were shaky at the back, undermanned and bereft of creativity in midfield and utterly toothless up front. Any shred of hope in an offensive sense disappeared when Lookman had to go off on the half hour (a consequence of overplaying the lad, especially with his recent injury).

    Whilst the position isn't completely irretrievable at this stage, relegation is starting to look inevitable with an emaciated and poor quality squad whose confidence is rock bottom and an amateur coach at the helm.

    Duchatelet may attempt to apply a sticking plaster or two next month but I doubt that it will make any difference. His first step should be to jettison the ridiculous Fraeye, although what are the chances of him recruiting anyone decent on a long term basis ?
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    Glad to see a fair few people sticking up for Fox as I thought he had a decent first half. It went a bit pear shaped for him thereafter with that corner soon after the break when there was a delay before he took it and a bit of gesturing to the other players. I think there was supposed to be a clever routine that allowed someone a free shot from the spot he passed it to but no one else cottoned on. Wolves broke away, almost scored then all the nerves and lack of confidence in the team took over.

    Having read the previous eight and a half pages of this thread, I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned the absence of trust in their team mates displayed by many of the players. I know Sarr may not always inspire great confidence in players and fans alike, but he was always showing for a short pass from team mates who chose a punt up the pitch or a pass back to Henderson instead. Also, apart from Fox once in the first half, and THD late on, no overlapping runs past the player on the ball. With a lightweight forward line up, we needed to draw Wolves into our half then play around them to create the space needed up front but the confidence and trust just isn't there.

    This does now have the feel of a relegation side that doesn't have the nous or determination to get results, but is by no means the worst I have seen. The 79-80 team was absolutely dire. The season offered absolutely no hope until the last two home games, when a 16 year old Paul Walsh was played for the full 90 minutes and lit up both games. For those of you who think Fox is bad, you obviously haven't seen Lawrie Madden play at left back (control the pass, look up, punt it up the channel to no one, repeat all game every game). And for those of you criticising our current foreign imports, what about all 5'5 and seven stone of Vigo Jacobsen and the lumbering Johnny Ostergaard, a former ice hockey international? Week in, week out, 11 dispirited players going through the motions, knowing they weren't good enough, watched by crowds of as low as 3,000 in a 66,000 capacity ground. I know we are rapidly heading back in that direction but there is still a long way to go before it's that bad.
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    Croydon said:

    I don't think it's a shame to dig out KAG, much the same as I didn't when it was Joe Piggot receiving criticism. If you're not good enough, you're not good enough.

    The shameful thing here is that players like KAG and Lennon are being chucked in at the deepest end possible before they are ready.

    Agree and any comments I made about KAG were more aimed at the Management than personal to the lad. He isn't good enough, imho, at this point and if he hasn't had the potential and desire knocked out of him by now, I hope he can go out on loan, learn his trade and maybe come back if and when he appears ready.

    I've watched him enough to realise that he doesn't currently have anything game changing about his game at this level. Apart from the great cross he put in for Cousin's goal vs Fulham when he had more space than he could have dreamed of, I have seen little to inspire me - he gets outjumped by big defenders when receiving long ball, can't skin defenders in a one on one and his shooting is infrequent and inaccurate.
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    Just read the report on BBC....1st attempt on target in the 71st minute, which was easily saved. More injury problems as well, thought I was being a tad optomistic in predicting we would finish 12th.
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    edited December 2015
    Tutt-Tutt said:

    @Lincsaddick wrote;

    as I wrote above, our current squad is neither talented not clever enough to play any fancy systems and 'the manager' should realise this, stop fucking about with experimentation and get the team playing 4 4 2 .. if that means long balls up field, keeping the ball away from our area and trying to nick a point or three, so be it .. this is no time to be playing fancy Dan football, it's a time to get stuck in and get back to basics otherwise we are definitely headed for the dustbin


    @Tutt-Tutt wrote: Yes and Yes. Play two orthodox wide players who are prepared to work back to protect the full backs. Don't leave the full back positions exposed. Play "Up, Back & Through" football, into feet & in the air, mixed up with quick attacking play along the flanks to set up early crosses into the box. When the opposition play a third central midfielder adjust to 4-1-4-1.

    The last time we played that style was in the Powell/ Riga season. When he got us up, CP used Yann to set it up and BWP to run through. Riga to his credit used the same style. (Was it the influence of Dyer & Mathew). Peeters, Luzon and Carol the clown, have all over-complicated it. European coaches trying to be clever. Tippy Tappy football inside our own half From Peeters and Luzon, was easily stifled once opponents worked it out. I haven't a clue what Carol is trying to do. He's tried three different systems, with no apparent style of play.

    Next up is Forest who are 4-4-2 to 4-2-4. Nothing fancy, but good players using a straightforward system. The full backs and wide players combine along the flanks. The front players set it up, Oliveira runs in behind, the Central midfielders back up the play. The Back Four is strong and well organised, but similar to Wolves has weaknesses, especially at Left back. However, the four man midfield works hard to cover the space in front of the Back Four. We have two central midfielders often left stranded by three attacking midfielders who are often caught upfield and leave the full backs exposed.



    exactly this .. though Luzon was playing this way at the start of the season with long balls up to Makienok .. remember we got points at Forest and Derby, VERY hard fought for and well earned points .. after BigMak's injury at Cardiff (methinks) .. Luzon changed tack, tried to play 'clever football' and the team was lost and hardly got another point under his tenure .. Fraeye is trying to be too clever also, whether this is at the behest of Duchatelet, a quest for pretty play is a matter for conjecture .. whatever .. back to bash and crash when required as unseemly and ugly as it may be .. better to get lots of ugly points than to play pretty and get hammered ..

    Mills the dirty bastard Forest man is coming to the Valley .. his tackle on Reza at the City Ground deserved six months in the slammer and not a mere yellow card .. I wont be there but I'd like to think that rather than boo our own players, the 'fans' will boo this dirty slag and put him right off his game .. lastly .. Vaughan caused us a lot of problems alongside Lansbury .. they will need to be stopped .. Lansbury is another one who likes a bit of a high tackle and a sly elbow .. Henri .. break a leg !! ((:>)

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    Missed this one.

    Grandchildren or present day Charlton?

    No choice really.
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    seth plum said:

    Am I the only one who thinks digging out Aherne-Grant is a crying shame?
    I am not saying he is the next big thing, but he is less than 18 years and 3 months, and he was being pitched into his mess even before he turned 18.
    Afobe of Wolves is 22 and as got 134 league gams under his belt and 41 goals.

    Definitely not. I feel for the youngsters right now as the pressure on their shoulders is far greater than it should be at this early point in their careers. Good clubs blood their youngsters gradually, give them time to settle, blend them with experienced heads who will guide them through the games. We shouldn't be getting on the backs of these poor lads.
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    ross1 said:

    With Roger Johnson on his way back, you can see the type of player RD wants to sign, hooray, hope yet:-)

    If that's true then we are fucked, he had one decent game for us.... his first & it went rapidly downhill after that. Oh well why should I expect any better ?
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    edited December 2015
    seth plum said:

    Am I the only one who thinks digging out Aherne-Grant is a crying shame?
    I am not saying he is the next big thing, but he is less than 18 years and 3 months, and he was being pitched into his mess even before he turned 18.
    Afobe of Wolves is 22 and as got 134 league gams under his belt and 41 goals.

    Of course it is but he quite clearly isn't good enough for the championship yet & should be out on loan to a lower division club. Unfortunately people take out their frustration on the players in front of them irrespective of age. There is only one person to blame for this & he never watches us play.
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    Croydon said:

    I don't think it's a shame to dig out KAG, much the same as I didn't when it was Joe Piggot receiving criticism. If you're not good enough, you're not good enough.

    The shameful thing here is that players like KAG and Lennon are being chucked in at the deepest end possible before they are ready.

    There are ways of being constructively critical though! If you're not good enough it may be because you're not ready yet. That doesn't deserve getting a dig out.

    It really isn't fair to knock confidence in young up-and-coming players who are being asked to go beyond their abilities is it?
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