Completely agree Hex, that is exactly how I feel, willing to back the trust in the short term to hopefully show their dialogue may be meaningful & by meaningful I mean about the changes that need to happen to stop the long term damage to the clubs finances and fan base.
So when as I expect from the current regime that this does not happen, that while not condoning abusive chants from a minority that the trust will join the protest/campaign that could be so important to saving the future of our club for ourselves and the next generation of Charlton supporters.
Sorry, but I support the Trust at the moment. We asked them to enter dialogue and they are doing just that and it would make it quite difficult to visibly protest outside the West Stand at the same time. That doesn't prevent the rest of us getting organised with various protests as has happened at the last two home matches.
However, I am also looking for an early decision by the Trust on whether KM/RD are accepting the dire position their actions and management have put the club in and specifically have plans to remedy the situation. If the Trust believe that they are just being kidded along then they must disengage from the talks and publically join the protests. I know the Trust would like to play the long game but the current crises is so severe that it must be addressed now (not in 3 months time), even at the cost of temporarily damaging long term relationships.
I think this is how the Trust see it but can't come right out and say it - but I could be wrong !
I think the objective of the protest is quite simple. Just to demonstrate that ordinary fans are totally unhappy with the way things are being run at the club. People have different ideas of what should be done and this is an opportunity for everyone. The B&W campaign actually suffers from being prescriptive in that many do not agree with it but still want to protest.
The most ridiculous protest is not attending. For ST holders they already have our money. Further loss of ticket sales and income could well lead to a further cut in the player budget for the second half of the season, increasing the risk of relegation and affecting the standard of football.
Finally it hardly supports the team who desperately need us now
This is your objective. Others are chanting Roland Out, others are slagging KM personally, others want Roland to stay and change. It's fine if it's just an opportunity to vent, but that's not a protest I feel the need to support - I don't think everyone sees it the same way, and people vent in ways I could never support.
But those wanting RD to stay in charge support Millwall!
Sorry, but I support the Trust at the moment. We asked them to enter dialogue and they are doing just that and it would make it quite difficult to visibly protest outside the West Stand at the same time. That doesn't prevent the rest of us getting organised with various protests as has happened at the last two home matches.
However, I am also looking for an early decision by the Trust on whether KM/RD are accepting the dire position their actions and management have put the club in and specifically have plans to remedy the situation. If the Trust believe that they are just being kidded along then they must disengage from the talks and publically join the protests. I know the Trust would like to play the long game but the current crises is so severe that it must be addressed now (not in 3 months time), even at the cost of temporarily damaging long term relationships.
I think this is how the Trust see it but can't come right out and say it - but I could be wrong !
Nutshell.
so is the dialogue that the trust have now entered into more important than the current crisis?
Sorry, but I support the Trust at the moment. We asked them to enter dialogue and they are doing just that and it would make it quite difficult to visibly protest outside the West Stand at the same time. That doesn't prevent the rest of us getting organised with various protests as has happened at the last two home matches.
However, I am also looking for an early decision by the Trust on whether KM/RD are accepting the dire position their actions and management have put the club in and specifically have plans to remedy the situation. If the Trust believe that they are just being kidded along then they must disengage from the talks and publically join the protests. I know the Trust would like to play the long game but the current crises is so severe that it must be addressed now (not in 3 months time), even at the cost of temporarily damaging long term relationships.
I think this is how the Trust see it but can't come right out and say it - but I could be wrong !
People can show they're unhappy AFKA, of course. For me I prefer to be part of something that has a constructive aim to it. I don't think the club are in any doubt how unhappy we are.
How do we show we're unhappy? We're not allowed to attend the meetings as only a "chosen few" are selected, and the last meeting was hardly angry or hostile. No wonder we can't make our voices heard when we still have fans who can't see there is a problem. As for the Trust, just what are they doing while supposedly representing the fans? You've been more concerned about the bloody Olympic stadium than what's been happening in SE7, and when my renewal is due it won't be getting
People can show they're unhappy AFKA, of course. For me I prefer to be part of something that has a constructive aim to it. I don't think the club are in any doubt how unhappy we are.
How do we show we're unhappy? We're not allowed to attend the meetings as only a "chosen few" are selected, and the last meeting was hardly angry or hostile. No wonder we can't make our voices heard when we still have fans who can't see there is a problem. As for the Trust, just what are they doing while supposedly representing the fans? You've been more concerned about the bloody Olympic stadium than what's been happening in SE7, and when my renewal is due it won't be getting renewed.
There's only one member of the Trust board involved with the OS on any kind of regular basis and that's me. And I'm just one of a group from various clubs who are driving it. I'm not generally in London, so it's not as if my own time for the Trust could be better used. We had a long meet last night, 2.5 hours and I was there on Skype throughout. The OS wasn't discussed at all and aspects of the current crisis accounted for 80% of the discussion.
My view completely. KM herself said that Duchalet owns the club, and will do things his way. As if it needed stating. he has gone on to do just that, and with horrible consequences off and particularly on the pitch. Rikofold has said that his members have voted for dialogue, and to me that's a fair enough point in it's way. However, what annoys the fans is player recruitment and manager recruitment, and the terrible state our club is in as a result. I cannot think of a profesional club in Europe where a fans trust would be able to enter into those sort of decisions, but the fans are leaving in droves because THAT is what is making saturday at the Valley such a wretched experience. Dialogue with KM may mean a vote on what color the next sofá is, or how many drum majorettes are needed for half time entertainment, but that won't turn the club around. And KM/RD won't let the dialogue go further. A bit long winded (sorry) but that is why for me, the Trust are also irrelevant at the moment.
Couldn't agree more. Why I cancelled my membership of the trust. I strongly believe that they fail abysmally to represent my views or the views of the general consensus (especially what is evident from the well organised 2% protest against Ipswich), which again was not organised by themselves. Probably why it was successful.
Maybe it's time for a new fan movement? One that does not have such a political agenda
Sorry, but I support the Trust at the moment. We asked them to enter dialogue and they are doing just that and it would make it quite difficult to visibly protest outside the West Stand at the same time. That doesn't prevent the rest of us getting organised with various protests as has happened at the last two home matches.
However, I am also looking for an early decision by the Trust on whether KM/RD are accepting the dire position their actions and management have put the club in and specifically have plans to remedy the situation. If the Trust believe that they are just being kidded along then they must disengage from the talks and publically join the protests. I know the Trust would like to play the long game but the current crises is so severe that it must be addressed now (not in 3 months time), even at the cost of temporarily damaging long term relationships.
I think this is how the Trust see it but can't come right out and say it - but I could be wrong !
Nutshell.
so is the dialogue that the trust have now entered into more important than the current crisis?
not trying to antagonise, genuinely interested
No it's not, but it is a means to address it - at least in part. This campaign won't resolve overnight and it will take many different facets I'm sure. It simply wouldn't be correct or helpful for the Supporters' Trust to lead on every single one, even were we to have the capacity to do so. We're not the be all and end all, but we do have strengths and we have a clear mandate - including SIO, which essentially demands the same - to get the club talking to us.
It would be foolish to attain that dialogue and throw it away needlessly for the determination to have a finger in every pie. Joe's doing a great job of SIO, VOTV helped build on it with the 2%ers, I'm sure the West Stand protests will play their part too, and there are others behind the scenes who are still working on other things that can keep the pressure on.
The worst case scenario is that the Trust are indeed irrelevant in the dialogue and the club are still playing games, in which case the club will have left no other recourse will they. But there is a possibility that we may be able to influence them positively, to hear voices they may not previously have been willing to hear, to challenge where it wasn't previously entertained. Let's see, but none of that stops anyone protesting and the club are in no doubt we support the objectives of the SIO campaign. It just limits the extent to which we can directly lead on it.
My view completely. KM herself said that Duchalet owns the club, and will do things his way. As if it needed stating. he has gone on to do just that, and with horrible consequences off and particularly on the pitch. Rikofold has said that his members have voted for dialogue, and to me that's a fair enough point in it's way. However, what annoys the fans is player recruitment and manager recruitment, and the terrible state our club is in as a result. I cannot think of a profesional club in Europe where a fans trust would be able to enter into those sort of decisions, but the fans are leaving in droves because THAT is what is making saturday at the Valley such a wretched experience. Dialogue with KM may mean a vote on what color the next sofá is, or how many drum majorettes are needed for half time entertainment, but that won't turn the club around. And KM/RD won't let the dialogue go further. A bit long winded (sorry) but that is why for me, the Trust are also irrelevant at the moment.
Couldn't agree more. Why I cancelled my membership of the trust. I strongly believe that they fail abysmally to represent my views or the views of the general consensus (especially what is evident from the well organised 2% protest against Ipswich), which again was not organised by themselves. Probably why it was successful.
Maybe it's time for a new fan movement? One that does not have such a political agenda
I'm a trust member, I don't have a problem with how they represent me and actually think they do a good job, but I 100% respect your opinion. I actually thought that the work they did re: the Stand up for the Orient campaign re; the olympic stadium was class, really helping the plight of a club who had been overlooked in a corrupt bidding process.
You may argue that it's all well and good, but why not focus on us. I believe they have been, but trying to engage RD is like trying ask Bergdich to play on the right wing and deliver. Pointless. The man does what he wants. We could rebrand the trust, call ourselves the Charlton ultras, whatever. He just doesn't give a monkeys. I appreciate your point re: the 2% but I feel that was a really good effort by some people that gave up their own time (good on them), but it was amongst a wave of disatisfaction culminating in GL going. People can (I have) got caught up in the momentum, and will join in. I plan to again this saturday. But does that translate to a new representative group that will be sustained and allow us fans to engage more, get more dialogue, get better results etc.
I completely understand why people might be saying the trust do not represent their views, but do we put in what we want out of the trust. I'm not directing this at you in particular, but me as an example, I pay £5 membership, didn't put forward any questions for the evening with KM & RM, and the only interaction I have is their weekly newsletter.
As others have said, how do you aggregate the views of the many. I still have faith in them and think they do a good job.
Absolutely staggered that people can't see that what the trust are doing and what the 2%/west stand protests are doing both have their place and can co-exist quite happily. It's not either/or - both are needed if we are to see change at this club.
All power to the trust. All power to the protest. Onwards.
The Trust in my view should be always strategic, positive and long term, except of course in a dire crisis like bankruptcy etc
If that means they are the last to join a protest particulalry when they are in dialogue still, then on some occasions perhaps we have to accept that.
Just for reference KM committed to reopening dialogue in the summer, in March I think, so not sure you can attribute it to one particular protest.
Same time its put them in a tricky position, given its coinciding with the current issues; and I can understand the frustration of those who feel the Trust should be putting their weight behind the protests.
I do agree that at some stage an assessment must be made if that dialogue is valuable and genuine, and if significant change is likely. Dialogue for its own same will not carry for long.
In my view however we need to put faith in the TB to make that call, and if and when, to leave the tent so to speak.
To achieve the level of protests we have without direct Trust involvement shows how stong the feeling is. I do think given the situation the TB need to be given more time to see this through.
I'm a Trust member and I support them with their aim to have some meaningful dialogue with the club. Whilst Meire may think she's batted away some of the concerns with the Target 20k campaign, I'm sure that the Trust will be pushing them harder on the real problems, which are clearly more related to the football side of things.
The Trust members have consistently agreed that dialogue is important, and it's taken a long time for the Trust to be able to get in front of Meire. Let's give them some time to see if there is anything they can do.
That said, I think it's important that there are other protests on a regular basis to keep up the pressure. With vocal and visual representation from the fans, it may well help the Trust's dialogue angle as Meire will be constantly reminded of what the fans think on a match day, rather than just having to take the Trusts word for it.
I'm a Trust member and I support them with their aim to have some meaningful dialogue with the club. Whilst Meire may think she's batted away some of the concerns with the Target 20k campaign, I'm sure that the Trust will be pushing them harder on the real problems, which are clearly more related to the football side of things.
The Trust members have consistently agreed that dialogue is important, and it's taken a long time for the Trust to be able to get in front of Meire. Let's give them some time to see if there is anything they can do.
That said, I think it's important that there are other protests on a regular basis to keep up the pressure. With vocal and visual representation from the fans, it may well help the Trust's dialogue angle as Meire will be constantly reminded of what the fans think on a match day, rather than just having to take the Trusts word for it.
It'll be nice to have 20k at The Valley but the math just don't add up.
Take Wednesday and Ipswich matches, we couldn't have much more than 8,000 fans there (70%+ more would have been season ticket holders). That means that you're looking at increasing 12,000 more paying customers, of which would eventually convert to season ticket holders. One look at the team, management lacking experience, they won't buy another ticket. Not to mention in industry word-of-mouth plays a big part. Our reputation at the moment as a brand ****ing stinks. I'd think come the end of the season we'd be lucky to add 1,000 to the attendances.
Call me a conspiracy theorist but they blatantly lie about the attendance. Bolton on Tuesday, I guarantee they'll be a minuscule attendance
We'll get 20k at The Valley again when the football is good and the fans feel the club is going places. It may mean that we'll need to challenge for promotion/playoffs for a couple of years first, or we may not get them unless we get back in the Prem, but we are certainly not going to those kinds of figures whilst his regime runs the club in the way it is.
They do lie about attendance, but all clubs do, because they count all the season ticket holders regardless whether they attend that particular match or not. I'm not attending The Valley right now, so I haven't seen if things have dwindled in general, but I was taken aback when I saw the Ipswich game on the TV. I don't know if it looked different in the ground, but via the TV cameras, the ground only looked about a third full, at best.
It's plainly obvious that Katrien Meire is trying to manage expectations and diffuse the current level of protest. Nothing has happened in weeks since she told us she has already "spelt it out in black and white" and that all the decisions she's taken have been brilliant. Talking about talking and more agenda controlled meetings with limited attendees is all part of her game-plan. The Trust can try that approach but if you want to see any real change, you need to be there at 2.30pm on Saturday and make your feelings known. She's still laughing at us and they continue to run this club into the ground.
We'll get 20k at The Valley again when the football is good and the fans feel the club is going places. It may mean that we'll need to challenge for promotion/playoffs for a couple of years first, or we may not get them unless we get back in the Prem, but we are certainly not going to those kinds of figures whilst his regime runs the club in the way it is.
They do lie about attendance, but all clubs do, because they count all the season ticket holders regardless whether they attend that particular match or not. I'm not attending The Valley right now, so I haven't seen if things have dwindled in general, but I was taken aback when I saw the Ipswich game on the TV. I don't know if it looked different in the ground, but via the TV cameras, the ground only looked about a third full, at best.
I think the general concensus was about 11 or 12 k in total.
I always estimate it by the fact the JS holds 3k.
What was in the West U and L would have filled the JS. The Covered U and L would have filled it and the East would have had a go.
It's plainly obvious that Katrien Meire is trying to manage expectations and diffuse the current level of protest. Nothing has happened in weeks since she told us she has already "spelt it out in black and white" and that all the decisions she's taken have been brilliant. Talking about talking and more agenda controlled meetings with limited attendees is all part of her game-plan. The Trust can try that approach but if you want to see any real change, you need to be there at 2.30pm on Saturday and make your feelings known. She's still laughing at us and they continue to run this club into the ground.
My view completely. KM herself said that Duchalet owns the club, and will do things his way. As if it needed stating. he has gone on to do just that, and with horrible consequences off and particularly on the pitch. Rikofold has said that his members have voted for dialogue, and to me that's a fair enough point in it's way. However, what annoys the fans is player recruitment and manager recruitment, and the terrible state our club is in as a result. I cannot think of a profesional club in Europe where a fans trust would be able to enter into those sort of decisions, but the fans are leaving in droves because THAT is what is making saturday at the Valley such a wretched experience. Dialogue with KM may mean a vote on what color the next sofá is, or how many drum majorettes are needed for half time entertainment, but that won't turn the club around. And KM/RD won't let the dialogue go further. A bit long winded (sorry) but that is why for me, the Trust are also irrelevant at the moment.
Couldn't agree more. Why I cancelled my membership of the trust. I strongly believe that they fail abysmally to represent my views or the views of the general consensus (especially what is evident from the well organised 2% protest against Ipswich), which again was not organised by themselves. Probably why it was successful.
Maybe it's time for a new fan movement? One that does not have such a political agenda
I'm a trust member, I don't have a problem with how they represent me and actually think they do a good job, but I 100% respect your opinion. I actually thought that the work they did re: the Stand up for the Orient campaign re; the olympic stadium was class, really helping the plight of a club who had been overlooked in a corrupt bidding process.
You may argue that it's all well and good, but why not focus on us. I believe they have been, but trying to engage RD is like trying ask Bergdich to play on the right wing and deliver. Pointless. The man does what he wants. We could rebrand the trust, call ourselves the Charlton ultras, whatever. He just doesn't give a monkeys. I appreciate your point re: the 2% but I feel that was a really good effort by some people that gave up their own time (good on them), but it was amongst a wave of disatisfaction culminating in GL going. People can (I have) got caught up in the momentum, and will join in. I plan to again this saturday. But does that translate to a new representative group that will be sustained and allow us fans to engage more, get more dialogue, get better results etc.
I completely understand why people might be saying the trust do not represent their views, but do we put in what we want out of the trust. I'm not directing this at you in particular, but me as an example, I pay £5 membership, didn't put forward any questions for the evening with KM & RM, and the only interaction I have is their weekly newsletter.
As others have said, how do you aggregate the views of the many. I still have faith in them and think they do a good job.
What weekly newsletter?? I get s.f.a. from the Trust and am getting really disillusioned with what their about. I thought really hard about renewing but did so eventually. In my humble opinion I feel the Trust should be spearheading constructive dialogue with KM regarding supporter unrest. Not relying on a few angry and vocal supporters. If KM does get concerned about pre-match protests, which doesn't seem likely at the moment, she will probably just draw the blinds.
KM can talk as much as she likes. Until she admits to her contribution to the mismanagement and gets RD to recognise his errors in running the club there is nothing to achieve. KM was part of the poor appointment of successive managers ( we still do not have an adequate one) the rather weak explanation and twisting of truth over Luzons appointment. Her part in permitting inadequate players to be forced into the club. She is not able to run a Championship club.
We'll get 20k at The Valley again when the football is good and the fans feel the club is going places. It may mean that we'll need to challenge for promotion/playoffs for a couple of years first, or we may not get them unless we get back in the Prem, but we are certainly not going to those kinds of figures whilst his regime runs the club in the way it is.
They do lie about attendance, but all clubs do, because they count all the season ticket holders regardless whether they attend that particular match or not. I'm not attending The Valley right now, so I haven't seen if things have dwindled in general, but I was taken aback when I saw the Ipswich game on the TV. I don't know if it looked different in the ground, but via the TV cameras, the ground only looked about a third full, at best.
I think the general concensus was about 11 or 12 k in total.
I always estimate it by the fact the JS holds 3k.
What was in the West U and L would have filled the JS. The Covered U and L would have filled it and the East would have had a go.
The East takes 6000, the Jimmy Seed 3200, not sure about the other two but either way it will be easy to work out the numbers in those two stands then do a rough count for the other two but a maximum of 9000 bums on seats.
My view completely. KM herself said that Duchalet owns the club, and will do things his way. As if it needed stating. he has gone on to do just that, and with horrible consequences off and particularly on the pitch. Rikofold has said that his members have voted for dialogue, and to me that's a fair enough point in it's way. However, what annoys the fans is player recruitment and manager recruitment, and the terrible state our club is in as a result. I cannot think of a profesional club in Europe where a fans trust would be able to enter into those sort of decisions, but the fans are leaving in droves because THAT is what is making saturday at the Valley such a wretched experience. Dialogue with KM may mean a vote on what color the next sofá is, or how many drum majorettes are needed for half time entertainment, but that won't turn the club around. And KM/RD won't let the dialogue go further. A bit long winded (sorry) but that is why for me, the Trust are also irrelevant at the moment.
Couldn't agree more. Why I cancelled my membership of the trust. I strongly believe that they fail abysmally to represent my views or the views of the general consensus (especially what is evident from the well organised 2% protest against Ipswich), which again was not organised by themselves. Probably why it was successful.
Maybe it's time for a new fan movement? One that does not have such a political agenda
I'm a trust member, I don't have a problem with how they represent me and actually think they do a good job, but I 100% respect your opinion. I actually thought that the work they did re: the Stand up for the Orient campaign re; the olympic stadium was class, really helping the plight of a club who had been overlooked in a corrupt bidding process.
You may argue that it's all well and good, but why not focus on us. I believe they have been, but trying to engage RD is like trying ask Bergdich to play on the right wing and deliver. Pointless. The man does what he wants. We could rebrand the trust, call ourselves the Charlton ultras, whatever. He just doesn't give a monkeys. I appreciate your point re: the 2% but I feel that was a really good effort by some people that gave up their own time (good on them), but it was amongst a wave of disatisfaction culminating in GL going. People can (I have) got caught up in the momentum, and will join in. I plan to again this saturday. But does that translate to a new representative group that will be sustained and allow us fans to engage more, get more dialogue, get better results etc.
I completely understand why people might be saying the trust do not represent their views, but do we put in what we want out of the trust. I'm not directing this at you in particular, but me as an example, I pay £5 membership, didn't put forward any questions for the evening with KM & RM, and the only interaction I have is their weekly newsletter.
As others have said, how do you aggregate the views of the many. I still have faith in them and think they do a good job.
What weekly newsletter?? I get s.f.a. from the Trust and am getting really disillusioned with what their about. I thought really hard about renewing but did so eventually. In my humble opinion I feel the Trust should be spearheading constructive dialogue with KM regarding supporter unrest. Not relying on a few angry and vocal supporters. If KM does get concerned about pre-match protests, which doesn't seem likely at the moment, she will probably just draw the blinds.
My view completely. KM herself said that Duchalet owns the club, and will do things his way. As if it needed stating. he has gone on to do just that, and with horrible consequences off and particularly on the pitch. Rikofold has said that his members have voted for dialogue, and to me that's a fair enough point in it's way. However, what annoys the fans is player recruitment and manager recruitment, and the terrible state our club is in as a result. I cannot think of a profesional club in Europe where a fans trust would be able to enter into those sort of decisions, but the fans are leaving in droves because THAT is what is making saturday at the Valley such a wretched experience. Dialogue with KM may mean a vote on what color the next sofá is, or how many drum majorettes are needed for half time entertainment, but that won't turn the club around. And KM/RD won't let the dialogue go further. A bit long winded (sorry) but that is why for me, the Trust are also irrelevant at the moment.
Couldn't agree more. Why I cancelled my membership of the trust. I strongly believe that they fail abysmally to represent my views or the views of the general consensus (especially what is evident from the well organised 2% protest against Ipswich), which again was not organised by themselves. Probably why it was successful.
Maybe it's time for a new fan movement? One that does not have such a political agenda
I'm a trust member, I don't have a problem with how they represent me and actually think they do a good job, but I 100% respect your opinion. I actually thought that the work they did re: the Stand up for the Orient campaign re; the olympic stadium was class, really helping the plight of a club who had been overlooked in a corrupt bidding process.
You may argue that it's all well and good, but why not focus on us. I believe they have been, but trying to engage RD is like trying ask Bergdich to play on the right wing and deliver. Pointless. The man does what he wants. We could rebrand the trust, call ourselves the Charlton ultras, whatever. He just doesn't give a monkeys. I appreciate your point re: the 2% but I feel that was a really good effort by some people that gave up their own time (good on them), but it was amongst a wave of disatisfaction culminating in GL going. People can (I have) got caught up in the momentum, and will join in. I plan to again this saturday. But does that translate to a new representative group that will be sustained and allow us fans to engage more, get more dialogue, get better results etc.
I completely understand why people might be saying the trust do not represent their views, but do we put in what we want out of the trust. I'm not directing this at you in particular, but me as an example, I pay £5 membership, didn't put forward any questions for the evening with KM & RM, and the only interaction I have is their weekly newsletter.
As others have said, how do you aggregate the views of the many. I still have faith in them and think they do a good job.
What weekly newsletter?? I get s.f.a. from the Trust and am getting really disillusioned with what their about. I thought really hard about renewing but did so eventually. In my humble opinion I feel the Trust should be spearheading constructive dialogue with KM regarding supporter unrest. Not relying on a few angry and vocal supporters. If KM does get concerned about pre-match protests, which doesn't seem likely at the moment, she will probably just draw the blinds.
That's exactly what we are doing.
As @razil says you should be getting a weekly digest, as well as a news update. Then there is Trust News. If you are not getting any of those please mail one of us using the address on the website, and while you are at it, give us an earful about what you think we should be doing but are not. Or at the Trust stand. You've paid your sub, thanks, and so of course we very much want to know what you think we could do better, but face to face is much better, and if not possible then at least through our own web channel where we know whom we are talking to and vice versa.
My view completely. KM herself said that Duchalet owns the club, and will do things his way. As if it needed stating. he has gone on to do just that, and with horrible consequences off and particularly on the pitch. Rikofold has said that his members have voted for dialogue, and to me that's a fair enough point in it's way. However, what annoys the fans is player recruitment and manager recruitment, and the terrible state our club is in as a result. I cannot think of a profesional club in Europe where a fans trust would be able to enter into those sort of decisions, but the fans are leaving in droves because THAT is what is making saturday at the Valley such a wretched experience. Dialogue with KM may mean a vote on what color the next sofá is, or how many drum majorettes are needed for half time entertainment, but that won't turn the club around. And KM/RD won't let the dialogue go further. A bit long winded (sorry) but that is why for me, the Trust are also irrelevant at the moment.
Couldn't agree more. Why I cancelled my membership of the trust. I strongly believe that they fail abysmally to represent my views or the views of the general consensus (especially what is evident from the well organised 2% protest against Ipswich), which again was not organised by themselves. Probably why it was successful.
Maybe it's time for a new fan movement? One that does not have such a political agenda
I'm a trust member, I don't have a problem with how they represent me and actually think they do a good job, but I 100% respect your opinion. I actually thought that the work they did re: the Stand up for the Orient campaign re; the olympic stadium was class, really helping the plight of a club who had been overlooked in a corrupt bidding process.
You may argue that it's all well and good, but why not focus on us. I believe they have been, but trying to engage RD is like trying ask Bergdich to play on the right wing and deliver. Pointless. The man does what he wants. We could rebrand the trust, call ourselves the Charlton ultras, whatever. He just doesn't give a monkeys. I appreciate your point re: the 2% but I feel that was a really good effort by some people that gave up their own time (good on them), but it was amongst a wave of disatisfaction culminating in GL going. People can (I have) got caught up in the momentum, and will join in. I plan to again this saturday. But does that translate to a new representative group that will be sustained and allow us fans to engage more, get more dialogue, get better results etc.
I completely understand why people might be saying the trust do not represent their views, but do we put in what we want out of the trust. I'm not directing this at you in particular, but me as an example, I pay £5 membership, didn't put forward any questions for the evening with KM & RM, and the only interaction I have is their weekly newsletter.
As others have said, how do you aggregate the views of the many. I still have faith in them and think they do a good job.
What weekly newsletter?? I get s.f.a. from the Trust and am getting really disillusioned with what their about. I thought really hard about renewing but did so eventually. In my humble opinion I feel the Trust should be spearheading constructive dialogue with KM regarding supporter unrest. Not relying on a few angry and vocal supporters. If KM does get concerned about pre-match protests, which doesn't seem likely at the moment, she will probably just draw the blinds.
Classic. The trust have let you down Waldo. Bastards the lot of them
The issue that I think many have with @rikofold 's comments here is that
a) he can't claim to be posting from a personal perspective and then spend the next ten posts talking clearly (albeit "unofficially") from the trust's perspective
and
b) that if the trust is truly supposed to be the fans focal point in leading the charge to the owners regarding change (whatever form that may take) then reading the views of someone as apologetic and softly softly as @rikofold hardly inspires as the person representing us in front of our esteemed CEO. This might be unfair as I don't believe he's ever put himself forward formally as the voice of the trust but for better or worse that's how he comes across on here
Personally I want the owners out, but even if I favoured a more tolerant approach then the way the trust are swallowing yet more vague promises of engagement etc would be disillusioning. I half expect someone from the trust to appear outside the West Stand on Saturday saying "I hold in my hands, a piece of paper.... "
I don't want a trust that is having a meeting with the Captain in his cosy quarters while the Titanic is heading towards the iceberg the rest of us can see from a mile off, I want one that is shaking him by his collars telling him of the impending disaster. Not wanting to rock the boat is irrelevant when the whole boat is going to sink without changing course.
*edited to remove unnecessary bit questioning Steve Clarke's visibility as that's a separate point and also I don't want it to read as though I'm questioning peoples commitment. Appreciate the many unpaid hours you all put in, despite not agreeing with current direction.
The issue that I think many have with @rikofold 's comments here is that
a) he can't claim to be posting from a personal perspective and then spend the next ten posts talking clearly (albeit "unofficially") from the trust's perspective
and
b) that if the trust is truly supposed to be the fans focal point in leading the charge to the owners regarding change (whatever form that may take) then reading the views of someone as apologetic and softly softly as @rikofold hardly inspires as the person representing us in front of our esteemed CEO. This might be unfair as I don't believe he's ever put himself forward formally as the voice of the trust but for better or worse that's how he comes across on here
On that note, where the f*** is Steve Clarke on Charlton Life, the biggest group of Charlton fans on the internet, and arguably greater in numbers than the trust??. @razil always put himself out there on here and never hid. The absence of Steve Clarke and the Ned Flanders approach of @rikofold hardly inspires confidence in the Trust for fighting our corner.
Personally I want the owners out, but even if I favoured a more tolerant approach then the way the trust are swallowing yet more vague promises of engagement etc would be disillusioning. I half expect someone from the trust to appear outside the West Stand on Saturday saying "I hold in my hands, a piece of paper.... " (actually that's just ridiculous because that would involve the trust communicating with the fans).
Thanks for the compliment (i think) although I recall you unless I'm mistaken, and some others still found a few things to complain about
The issue that I think many have with @rikofold 's comments here is that
a) he can't claim to be posting from a personal perspective and then spend the next ten posts talking clearly (albeit "unofficially") from the trust's perspective
and
b) that if the trust is truly supposed to be the fans focal point in leading the charge to the owners regarding change (whatever form that may take) then reading the views of someone as apologetic and softly softly as @rikofold hardly inspires as the person representing us in front of our esteemed CEO. This might be unfair as I don't believe he's ever put himself forward formally as the voice of the trust but for better or worse that's how he comes across on here
On that note, where the f*** is Steve Clarke on Charlton Life, the biggest group of Charlton fans on the internet, and arguably greater in numbers than the trust??. @razil always put himself out there on here and never hid. The absence of Steve Clarke and the Ned Flanders approach of @rikofold hardly inspires confidence in the Trust for fighting our corner.
Personally I want the owners out, but even if I favoured a more tolerant approach then the way the trust are swallowing yet more vague promises of engagement etc would be disillusioning. I half expect someone from the trust to appear outside the West Stand on Saturday saying "I hold in my hands, a piece of paper.... " (actually that's just ridiculous because that would involve the trust communicating with the fans).
Thanks for the compliment (i think) although I recall you unless I'm mistaken, and some others still found a few things to complain about
You didn't hide though and for that I respect you.
On that note - I have massive respect for @rikold putting up with all of this. Where is Steve Clarke?
The issue that I think many have with @rikofold 's comments here is that
a) he can't claim to be posting from a personal perspective and then spend the next ten posts talking clearly (albeit "unofficially") from the trust's perspective
and
b) that if the trust is truly supposed to be the fans focal point in leading the charge to the owners regarding change (whatever form that may take) then reading the views of someone as apologetic and softly softly as @rikofold hardly inspires as the person representing us in front of our esteemed CEO. This might be unfair as I don't believe he's ever put himself forward formally as the voice of the trust but for better or worse that's how he comes across on here
On that note, where the f*** is Steve Clarke on Charlton Life, the biggest group of Charlton fans on the internet, and arguably greater in numbers than the trust??. @razil always put himself out there on here and never hid. The absence of Steve Clarke and the Ned Flanders approach of @rikofold hardly inspires confidence in the Trust for fighting our corner.
Personally I want the owners out, but even if I favoured a more tolerant approach then the way the trust are swallowing yet more vague promises of engagement etc would be disillusioning. I half expect someone from the trust to appear outside the West Stand on Saturday saying "I hold in my hands, a piece of paper.... " (actually that's just ridiculous because that would involve the trust communicating with the fans).
Thanks for the compliment (i think) although I recall you unless I'm mistaken, and some others still found a few things to complain about
You didn't hide though and for that I respect you.
On that note - I have massive respect for @rikold putting up with all of this. Where is Steve Clarke?
Comments
So when as I expect from the current regime that this does not happen, that while not condoning abusive chants from a minority that the trust will join the protest/campaign that could be so important to saving the future of our club for ourselves and the next generation of Charlton supporters.
not trying to antagonise, genuinely interested
This
Maybe it's time for a new fan movement? One that does not have such a political agenda
It would be foolish to attain that dialogue and throw it away needlessly for the determination to have a finger in every pie. Joe's doing a great job of SIO, VOTV helped build on it with the 2%ers, I'm sure the West Stand protests will play their part too, and there are others behind the scenes who are still working on other things that can keep the pressure on.
The worst case scenario is that the Trust are indeed irrelevant in the dialogue and the club are still playing games, in which case the club will have left no other recourse will they. But there is a possibility that we may be able to influence them positively, to hear voices they may not previously have been willing to hear, to challenge where it wasn't previously entertained. Let's see, but none of that stops anyone protesting and the club are in no doubt we support the objectives of the SIO campaign. It just limits the extent to which we can directly lead on it.
You may argue that it's all well and good, but why not focus on us. I believe they have been, but trying to engage RD is like trying ask Bergdich to play on the right wing and deliver. Pointless. The man does what he wants. We could rebrand the trust, call ourselves the Charlton ultras, whatever. He just doesn't give a monkeys. I appreciate your point re: the 2% but I feel that was a really good effort by some people that gave up their own time (good on them), but it was amongst a wave of disatisfaction culminating in GL going. People can (I have) got caught up in the momentum, and will join in. I plan to again this saturday. But does that translate to a new representative group that will be sustained and allow us fans to engage more, get more dialogue, get better results etc.
I completely understand why people might be saying the trust do not represent their views, but do we put in what we want out of the trust. I'm not directing this at you in particular, but me as an example, I pay £5 membership, didn't put forward any questions for the evening with KM & RM, and the only interaction I have is their weekly newsletter.
As others have said, how do you aggregate the views of the many. I still have faith in them and think they do a good job.
All power to the trust. All power to the protest. Onwards.
If that means they are the last to join a protest particulalry when they are in dialogue still, then on some occasions perhaps we have to accept that.
Just for reference KM committed to reopening dialogue in the summer, in March I think, so not sure you can attribute it to one particular protest.
Same time its put them in a tricky position, given its coinciding with the current issues; and I can understand the frustration of those who feel the Trust should be putting their weight behind the protests.
I do agree that at some stage an assessment must be made if that dialogue is valuable and genuine, and if significant change is likely. Dialogue for its own same will not carry for long.
In my view however we need to put faith in the TB to make that call, and if and when, to leave the tent so to speak.
To achieve the level of protests we have without direct Trust involvement shows how stong the feeling is. I do think given the situation the TB need to be given more time to see this through.
The Trust members have consistently agreed that dialogue is important, and it's taken a long time for the Trust to be able to get in front of Meire. Let's give them some time to see if there is anything they can do.
That said, I think it's important that there are other protests on a regular basis to keep up the pressure. With vocal and visual representation from the fans, it may well help the Trust's dialogue angle as Meire will be constantly reminded of what the fans think on a match day, rather than just having to take the Trusts word for it.
Take Wednesday and Ipswich matches, we couldn't have much more than 8,000 fans there (70%+ more would have been season ticket holders). That means that you're looking at increasing 12,000 more paying customers, of which would eventually convert to season ticket holders. One look at the team, management lacking experience, they won't buy another ticket. Not to mention in industry word-of-mouth plays a big part. Our reputation at the moment as a brand ****ing stinks. I'd think come the end of the season we'd be lucky to add 1,000 to the attendances.
Call me a conspiracy theorist but they blatantly lie about the attendance. Bolton on Tuesday, I guarantee they'll be a minuscule attendance
They do lie about attendance, but all clubs do, because they count all the season ticket holders regardless whether they attend that particular match or not. I'm not attending The Valley right now, so I haven't seen if things have dwindled in general, but I was taken aback when I saw the Ipswich game on the TV. I don't know if it looked different in the ground, but via the TV cameras, the ground only looked about a third full, at best.
I always estimate it by the fact the JS holds 3k.
What was in the West U and L would have filled the JS. The Covered U and L would have filled it and the East would have had a go.
Advertised gate 13,500 for Tuesday night.
As @razil says you should be getting a weekly digest, as well as a news update. Then there is Trust News. If you are not getting any of those please mail one of us using the address on the website, and while you are at it, give us an earful about what you think we should be doing but are not. Or at the Trust stand. You've paid your sub, thanks, and so of course we very much want to know what you think we could do better, but face to face is much better, and if not possible then at least through our own web channel where we know whom we are talking to and vice versa.
a) he can't claim to be posting from a personal perspective and then spend the next ten posts talking clearly (albeit "unofficially") from the trust's perspective
and
b) that if the trust is truly supposed to be the fans focal point in leading the charge to the owners regarding change (whatever form that may take) then reading the views of someone as apologetic and softly softly as @rikofold hardly inspires as the person representing us in front of our esteemed CEO. This might be unfair as I don't believe he's ever put himself forward formally as the voice of the trust but for better or worse that's how he comes across on here
Personally I want the owners out, but even if I favoured a more tolerant approach then the way the trust are swallowing yet more vague promises of engagement etc would be disillusioning. I half expect someone from the trust to appear outside the West Stand on Saturday saying "I hold in my hands, a piece of paper.... "
I don't want a trust that is having a meeting with the Captain in his cosy quarters while the Titanic is heading towards the iceberg the rest of us can see from a mile off, I want one that is shaking him by his collars telling him of the impending disaster. Not wanting to rock the boat is irrelevant when the whole boat is going to sink without changing course.
*edited to remove unnecessary bit questioning Steve Clarke's visibility as that's a separate point and also I don't want it to read as though I'm questioning peoples commitment. Appreciate the many unpaid hours you all put in, despite not agreeing with current direction.
On that note - I have massive respect for @rikold putting up with all of this. Where is Steve Clarke?