'To discuss recent concerns surrounding the club.'
They're willing to meet, that has to be better than not meeting in my view. However what is the agenda going to be? If it is like 'tell us what's on your mind', and then there is a ho and a hum and an answer I wonder if that will work, or if it is not to 'discuss' but to 'dismiss'. I am also wondering what 'recent' might mean in this context, and if the notion of 'recent' will control what is talked about. I know there will be nothing gained by re hashing the pain of Catford, or the Selhurst years, but I hope recent allows for more than a micro dissection of the tenure of Guy Luzon.
If I may be allowed to offer Richard and Katrien advice it would be this.
Create, circulate and publish an agenda for the meeting with specifics outlined.
It would be great to see that the regime is actively aware of the concerns, rather than any kind of faux bewilderment that some issues are raised. To call the meeting at all is positive because it recognises the pain, fair enough, but show your mettle by anticipating some of the 'concerns' rather than only reacting to them.
The FF has a restrictive remit, but why randomly selected fans need to be invited who knows, shame another gimmicky approach has to be applied and shows once more a lip service approach, and a reluctance to accept a body that is democratically constituted to represent charlton fans as a whole.
It is the Trust who has been seeking this form of dialogue, not the FF or random fans
All the same we'll see what happens.
Sorry, but I can't agree with this at all.
The Trust does some great things, but how many people are actually members? Many, many more supporters are not and have as much right to voice an opinion as those who are involved in the Trust. Let's not fall out amongst individual groups and fans and let's not take an elitist stand that one person/group has a right to voice an opinion over anyone else.
Great that they're doing this. Let's not knock it until we all hear what has been said and thn acted upon.
I suspect that even without some of the actions taken by supporters, KM and RM realise that this time things are different, which explains the lack of whitewash statement on Monday.
It's interesting that the International Break has been mentioned, both in term of this get together, but also for appointing a permanent manager (whether it's Fraeye or not). I wonder which will happen first...
On the face of it, this seems like a good move forward. But listening is not enough, a change of direction is required. The whole fan base are now pretty much united, so whatever RD and KM think might be good for us, that is not being reflected on the pitch or in the eyes of supporters. They can shove their vision down own throats as much as they want, it has been rejected by the fans in it's current form. Their options are to either stop antagonising the fans and start respecting their views, or move aside. The present situation is no good for anyone and is so avoidable and unnecessary. When everyone is on the same page, this club has the potential to be a huge success, as it was only a decade ago. Signing the likes of Gudmundsson, Kashi etc makes no business sense if the team ends up in League Two, it is simply throwing money down the drain. Appoint a football man such as Curbs or KP as Director of football and listen and act on their advice and wisdom. Better still, just appoint Curbs as a conventional manager, sit back, relax, and let him get on with it. Hoping I get an invite and they pay my traveling expenses!
What really needs to happen is to get out amongst the fans, but in an open and honest way, and being willing to accept criticism. The problem is the position is now difficult prohibiting that kind of approach.
The FF has a restrictive remit, but why randomly selected fans need to be invited who knows, shame another gimmicky approach has to be applied and shows once more a lip service approach, and a reluctance to accept a body that is democratically constituted to represent charlton fans as a whole.
It is the Trust who has been seeking this form of dialogue, not the FF or random fans
All the same we'll see what happens.
for Razil : democratically constituted by whom exactly? The fact is there are many more CAFC fans who are not members than are. So you don't represent the majority do you, you don't represent me for example.
In general : It's amazing that this is seen as a gimmick when everyone has been moaning about the Club not engaging the fans and then when they do it's seen as paying lip service. Why don't you all moan about it for a couple of days and if you moan enough they may cancel it so giving you something else to moan about. It's a start and to be applauded. And let's see who is randomly selected before complaining about any possible contrived selection.
The FF has a restrictive remit, but why randomly selected fans need to be invited who knows, shame another gimmicky approach has to be applied and shows once more a lip service approach, and a reluctance to accept a body that is democratically constituted to represent charlton fans as a whole.
It is the Trust who has been seeking this form of dialogue, not the FF or random fans
All the same we'll see what happens.
Sorry, but I can't agree with this at all.
The Trust does some great things, but how many people are actually members? Many, many more supporters are not and have as much right to voice an opinion as those who are involved in the Trust. Let's not fall out amongst individual groups and fans and let's not take an elitist stand that one person/group has a right to voice an opinion over anyone else.
Great that they're doing this. Let's not knock it until we all hear what has been said and thn acted upon.
I agree 100%
what percentage of our support are involved in the FF? why shouldn't some of the remaining supporters get an opportunity to attend?
Ahhhhhh - the infamous database. I hope they don't advise the 'lucky' few by post!
If so, we'll end up with five Bournemouth fans who will declare(truthfully) they are at the highest level they have ever been and are having the time of their lives.
democratic meaning they are accountable, nationally recognised, and have a stated remit, if the other fans not in the trust want to be represented by all means form a group, rather than moan about people who bother
The FF has a restrictive remit, but why randomly selected fans need to be invited who knows, shame another gimmicky approach has to be applied and shows once more a lip service approach, and a reluctance to accept a body that is democratically constituted to represent charlton fans as a whole.
It is the Trust who has been seeking this form of dialogue, not the FF or random fans
All the same we'll see what happens.
for Razil : democratically constituted by whom exactly? The fact is there are many more CAFC fans who are not members than are. So you don't represent the majority do you, you don't represent me for example.
In general : It's amazing that this is seen as a gimmick when everyone has been moaning about the Club not engaging the fans and then when they do it's seen as paying lip service. Why don't you all moan about it for a couple of days and if you moan enough they may cancel it so giving you something else to moan about. It's a start and to be applauded. And let's see who is randomly selected before complaining about any possible contrived selection.
The reason that people are sceptical is because nothing will come from it.
Whatever is brought up is what she is used to hearing from fans on the way out of the ground on matchdays. All KM is doing his giving them a platform to say what she is already hearing.
Let's make it look like we are doing something before our next home match. Poor attempt to try and stop any protests at the Sheffield Wednesday match.
I am expecting the date of this meeting to be Thursday 26th just before the next home match.
All of this is done to buy them some time and hope performances pick up.
PR stunt and I am not buying it.
I think you'll find the meeting in on the 10th November.
Razil, I can't agree with your reluctance to invite 'ordinary' fans either. In fact, I would be tempted to go as far as to suggest to just invite a group of fans and not the FF members or the Trust committee. Their position is, clearly, publicly known and the meetings with the FF haven't been constructive is preventing the club from getting into this position so what's to say this one would be any different. There is also a question mark over the FF meetings in that the contents of he meetings are not allowed to be discussed until a club official has approved the minutes which, in my view, questions the independence of it.
However I'm happy for all groups to be invited, to suggest it's gimmicky not to invite the same people that have benefitted from access to the club for a long time does sound elitist Razil, even if it wasn't meant to.
The FF has a restrictive remit, but why randomly selected fans need to be invited who knows, shame another gimmicky approach has to be applied and shows once more a lip service approach, and a reluctance to accept a body that is democratically constituted to represent charlton fans as a whole.
It is the Trust who has been seeking this form of dialogue, not the FF or random fans
All the same we'll see what happens.
for Razil : democratically constituted by whom exactly? The fact is there are many more CAFC fans who are not members than are. So you don't represent the majority do you, you don't represent me for example.
In general : It's amazing that this is seen as a gimmick when everyone has been moaning about the Club not engaging the fans and then when they do it's seen as paying lip service. Why don't you all moan about it for a couple of days and if you moan enough they may cancel it so giving you something else to moan about. It's a start and to be applauded. And let's see who is randomly selected before complaining about any possible contrived selection.
Supporters Trusts like the one at Charlton are constituted according to structures similar to the umbrella of supporters trusts across the country. The nature of the democracy involved is part of a wider movement, and it is an organised body rather than an ad hoc collective. It is something rather than nothing. The signed up membership is absolutely a minority of season ticket holders, and Charlton fans generally, but as an organised group it is much more substantial than any other organized Charlton Supporter group out there. It is something rather than nothing, and a something that has made an effort, however open to criticism those efforts are, rather than fans being passive it is fans being active.
There are a number of supporters who criticise the trust generally because of antipathy towards individuals involved, who are accused of being ego driven and seeking self aggrandisement, but their criticisms are easy to make from the sidelines, especially as they can be grenades lobbed with no justification to back it up, and no effort on their part to put heads above parapets. So be it, it was ever thus.
Is there anybody who would like to suggest that a supporters Trust per se is a bad thing, and make that case separate from talking about any individuals involved?
The FF has a restrictive remit, but why randomly selected fans need to be invited who knows, shame another gimmicky approach has to be applied and shows once more a lip service approach, and a reluctance to accept a body that is democratically constituted to represent charlton fans as a whole.
It is the Trust who has been seeking this form of dialogue, not the FF or random fans
All the same we'll see what happens.
for Razil : democratically constituted by whom exactly? The fact is there are many more CAFC fans who are not members than are. So you don't represent the majority do you, you don't represent me for example.
In general : It's amazing that this is seen as a gimmick when everyone has been moaning about the Club not engaging the fans and then when they do it's seen as paying lip service. Why don't you all moan about it for a couple of days and if you moan enough they may cancel it so giving you something else to moan about. It's a start and to be applauded. And let's see who is randomly selected before complaining about any possible contrived selection.
Cast your mind back to the last time KM communicated directly with a fan? She picked out a young kid who was obviously a bit overawed and didnt stand a chance asking direct questions against a trained lawyer. I'll carry on being skeptical until theres some positive action. And that's action not just passive empty chat
Very sceptical but we'll see. My fear is she will just trot the same old tosh out. The"We know best so mind your own business" stance we've seen so many times before.
This has got to be viewed as positive and a direct response to the unrest they are clearly aware of amongst the fan base. It is also one of the key objectives of Spell it Out in Black and White so kudos to Ben.
This is not about agendas of individual fans groups - the Trust, FF et al - they are representative groups but not the only voice. There is clearly not room for a mass open meeting - attendance will have to be limited to be able to get meaningful dialogue but limiting attendance to the FF representatives would exclude representatives from the great unwashed. A random invite list from the Club's database would achieve that and provide a true cross-section. I'm being optimistic that 'random' does mean random and will assume it will be unless proved otherwise.
I would suggest the tone of the meeting is not just 'here are our concerns' for them to just listen to. KM/RM will have an agenda but so must the fans. They will need to be aware of the 'or else' ramifications - not threats (that never works) but more 'we are not happy with this (they already know what this is) - this is what we would want you to do about it - and if progress isn't made the likely consequences/fans response will be 'x'. The fans' agenda needs to be clearly spelled out prior to the meeting so that if KM's agenda is to use this as a delaying tactic then it won't work. Our options as fans needs to be clear to KM/RM before the meeting.
Comments
So whether it is coincidence or a reaction to Spell It Out it is a start.
But it is only a start and a meeting is just an output not an outcome.
Such meetings are a good thing as and when they produce action and change.
They're willing to meet, that has to be better than not meeting in my view.
However what is the agenda going to be?
If it is like 'tell us what's on your mind', and then there is a ho and a hum and an answer I wonder if that will work, or if it is not to 'discuss' but to 'dismiss'. I am also wondering what 'recent' might mean in this context, and if the notion of 'recent' will control what is talked about. I know there will be nothing gained by re hashing the pain of Catford, or the Selhurst years, but I hope recent allows for more than a micro dissection of the tenure of Guy Luzon.
If I may be allowed to offer Richard and Katrien advice it would be this.
Create, circulate and publish an agenda for the meeting with specifics outlined.
It would be great to see that the regime is actively aware of the concerns, rather than any kind of faux bewilderment that some issues are raised. To call the meeting at all is positive because it recognises the pain, fair enough, but show your mettle by anticipating some of the 'concerns' rather than only reacting to them.
The Trust does some great things, but how many people are actually members? Many, many more supporters are not and have as much right to voice an opinion as those who are involved in the Trust. Let's not fall out amongst individual groups and fans and let's not take an elitist stand that one person/group has a right to voice an opinion over anyone else.
Great that they're doing this. Let's not knock it until we all hear what has been said and thn acted upon.
Looking forward to the random selection of a 15 yr old with snazzy hair who gets a free top
It's interesting that the International Break has been mentioned, both in term of this get together, but also for appointing a permanent manager (whether it's Fraeye or not). I wonder which will happen first...
Rattled however - On with the boycott!
Hoping I get an invite and they pay my traveling expenses!
All of this is done to buy them some time and hope performances pick up.
PR stunt and I am not buying it.
In general : It's amazing that this is seen as a gimmick when everyone has been moaning about the Club not engaging the fans and then when they do it's seen as paying lip service. Why don't you all moan about it for a couple of days and if you moan enough they may cancel it so giving you something else to moan about. It's a start and to be applauded. And let's see who is randomly selected before complaining about any possible contrived selection.
what percentage of our support are involved in the FF? why shouldn't some of the remaining supporters get an opportunity to attend?
If so, we'll end up with five Bournemouth fans who will declare(truthfully) they are at the highest level they have ever been and are having the time of their lives.
Each FF representative and randomly selected fan must be able to fully disclose the conversation to their respective members.
Whatever is brought up is what she is used to hearing from fans on the way out of the ground on matchdays. All KM is doing his giving them a platform to say what she is already hearing.
Razil, I can't agree with your reluctance to invite 'ordinary' fans either. In fact, I would be tempted to go as far as to suggest to just invite a group of fans and not the FF members or the Trust committee. Their position is, clearly, publicly known and the meetings with the FF haven't been constructive is preventing the club from getting into this position so what's to say this one would be any different. There is also a question mark over the FF meetings in that the contents of he meetings are not allowed to be discussed until a club official has approved the minutes which, in my view, questions the independence of it.
However I'm happy for all groups to be invited, to suggest it's gimmicky not to invite the same people that have benefitted from access to the club for a long time does sound elitist Razil, even if it wasn't meant to.
The nature of the democracy involved is part of a wider movement, and it is an organised body rather than an ad hoc collective.
It is something rather than nothing.
The signed up membership is absolutely a minority of season ticket holders, and Charlton fans generally, but as an organised group it is much more substantial than any other organized Charlton Supporter group out there.
It is something rather than nothing, and a something that has made an effort, however open to criticism those efforts are, rather than fans being passive it is fans being active.
There are a number of supporters who criticise the trust generally because of antipathy towards individuals involved, who are accused of being ego driven and seeking self aggrandisement, but their criticisms are easy to make from the sidelines, especially as they can be grenades lobbed with no justification to back it up, and no effort on their part to put heads above parapets.
So be it, it was ever thus.
Is there anybody who would like to suggest that a supporters Trust per se is a bad thing, and make that case separate from talking about any individuals involved?
My fear is she will just trot the same old tosh out. The"We know best so mind your own business" stance we've seen so many times before.
This is not about agendas of individual fans groups - the Trust, FF et al - they are representative groups but not the only voice. There is clearly not room for a mass open meeting - attendance will have to be limited to be able to get meaningful dialogue but limiting attendance to the FF representatives would exclude representatives from the great unwashed. A random invite list from the Club's database would achieve that and provide a true cross-section. I'm being optimistic that 'random' does mean random and will assume it will be unless proved otherwise.
I would suggest the tone of the meeting is not just 'here are our concerns' for them to just listen to. KM/RM will have an agenda but so must the fans. They will need to be aware of the 'or else' ramifications - not threats (that never works) but more 'we are not happy with this (they already know what this is) - this is what we would want you to do about it - and if progress isn't made the likely consequences/fans response will be 'x'. The fans' agenda needs to be clearly spelled out prior to the meeting so that if KM's agenda is to use this as a delaying tactic then it won't work. Our options as fans needs to be clear to KM/RM before the meeting.