At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
You've come up with 3 examples of bad signings by Alex Ferguson, who was in charge of Manchester United for 27 years. Here's 10 examples of bad signings made by Roland in 18 months - Onyewu, Lepoint, Etheridge, Reza, Nego, Polish Pete, Tucudean, Thuram, Koc.
As you say, all clubs sign dodgy players - the difference is that most do it occasionally, whereas we do it every time a new transfer window opens.
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
You've come up with 3 examples of bad signings by Alex Ferguson, who was in charge of Manchester United for 27 years. Here's 10 examples of bad signings made by Roland in 18 months - Onyewu, Lepoint, Etheridge, Reza, Nego, Polish Pete, Tucudean, Thuram, Koc.
As you say, all clubs sign dodgy players - the difference is that most do it occasionally, whereas we do it every time a new transfer window opens.
Go onto any teams forum and their will be complaints about signings made the previous season.
The point still remains that saying 'it would be better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place' is stating the obvious but extremely unlikely. Every club signs stinkers. Id be a lot more pissed off if the players you mentioned cost a lot of money. PP did and is a shocker by RD, cant defend him on that...but we can level that with Igor and JBG.
Also, some players mentioned by yourself are from the first season, when its been admitted the players weren't good enough. Compare that to the season just gone and there is significant improvement.
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
You've come up with 3 examples of bad signings by Alex Ferguson, who was in charge of Manchester United for 27 years. Here's 10 examples of bad signings made by Roland in 18 months - Onyewu, Lepoint, Etheridge, Reza, Nego, Polish Pete, Tucudean, Thuram, Koc.
As you say, all clubs sign dodgy players - the difference is that most do it occasionally, whereas we do it every time a new transfer window opens.
The point still remains that saying 'it would be better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place' is stating the obvious but extremely unlikely. Every club signs stinkers. Id be a lot more pissed off if the players you mentioned cost a lot of money. PP did as is a shocker by RD, cant defend him on that...but we can level that with Igor and JBG.
Also, some players mentioned by yourself are from the first season, when its been admitted the players weren't good enough. Compare that to the season just gone and there is significant improvement.
But Spurs over the last 18 months isn't an example of a normal club signing the odd dodgy player. Spurs, like us, is an example of a club that recruits a lot of poor players.
Since Duchatelet arrived, we've signed 25 to 30 players and roughly a third of them haven't been of the required standard. That isn't normal, it's a pitiful ratio.
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
You've come up with 3 examples of bad signings by Alex Ferguson, who was in charge of Manchester United for 27 years. Here's 10 examples of bad signings made by Roland in 18 months - Onyewu, Lepoint, Etheridge, Reza, Nego, Polish Pete, Tucudean, Thuram, Koc.
As you say, all clubs sign dodgy players - the difference is that most do it occasionally, whereas we do it every time a new transfer window opens.
The point still remains that saying 'it would be better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place' is stating the obvious but extremely unlikely. Every club signs stinkers. Id be a lot more pissed off if the players you mentioned cost a lot of money. PP did as is a shocker by RD, cant defend him on that...but we can level that with Igor and JBG.
Also, some players mentioned by yourself are from the first season, when its been admitted the players weren't good enough. Compare that to the season just gone and there is significant improvement.
But Spurs over the last 18 months isn't an example of a normal club signing the odd dodgy player. Spurs, like us, is an example of a club that recruits a lot of poor players.
Since Duchatelet arrived, we've signed 25 to 30 players and roughly a third of them haven't been of the required standard. That isn't normal, it's a pitiful ratio.
I honestly wouldn't say that a third not being the required standard is that irregular, especially when the large majority are either loans, short contracts or free transfers.
Personally I thin he was right to be moved on. If Cousins goes one can only assume (hope) we are going to transform the make up of the team entirely over the summer.
Henderson Pope Dmitrovic
Solly Fox
Diarra JBG Jackson Moussa
Watt Vetokele
This is taking into account the players that are rumoured to be transfer targets or being moved on
Add to that the youth players that might come in, but that is what our first team squad looks like at the moment. I don't think RD would be as Kamikaze as to send us into the new season with just this. Whether the replacements are any good is another question entirely
Personally I see this cleanse as a good thing. We only have X amount of players capable of challenging for promotion, we need to clear the decks
Henderson - injury prone Pope - about to be loaned out / sold Dmitrovic - suspect
Solly - injury prone / can't play back-to-back
JBG - likely to be sold Jackson - not really up to it anymore and is picking more and more injuries Moussa - is he still alive?
Which is why I reckon we will see numerous new arrivals. As above though, based on since when RD took over, whether they cut it or not is the issue.
Personally I've listed the flops and the ones I think are good below
Flops
Thuram Jan 2014 Nego Jan 2014 PP Jan 2014 Reza Jan 2014 LePoint Jan 2015 Koc Jan 2014
Good
Buyens June 2014 Bulot August 2014 TBH June 2014 Bikey June 2014 Watt Jan 2015 Vetokele June 2014 JBG July 2014 Henderson July 2014
I can't really call Johnson/Eagles etc as they were short term fixes. This is open to interpretation, but it goes to show it really is 50/50 with what comes in. As mentioned, I'm pleased we're having a clear out, but tentative about what is on the horizon
I've added the dates to show some clarity. Also I thought Ajdarevic was OK and he's now back at Liege. And of course there's Tucudean in July 2014. People might recall that the guy at Liege responsible for Jan 2014 moves left shortly after.
So on the face of it 50:50 but most of the flops were signed January 2014 and the board have since acknowledged that they misjudged the challenge. And the flops are gone within six months. Every time.
For sure Karel Freye had an involvement at the start of the Staprix takeover as a football analyst. @seth plum and I both met him in February 2014 at the Birmingham game several weeks before he showed up as Riga's no. 2. He shared some interesting observations about Evina who had a shocker that day. And he was rumoured to have been involved with the Vetokele deal. But we have signed a lot of players since June 2014 and I can't see his fingerprints all over today's squad.
At this stage the owners and board should know what a 46 game Championship season looks and feels like and should know the calibre of player required. The fact that they have just turfed out the bottom half of the squad in terms of performance and contribution last season suggests to me that they know what is required for next time around. A shame that Ben Haim gone and Buyens not coming back but I don't think we will miss Lepoint together with all the others who were released in May.
Incidentally,there might be nothing in it but Lepoint is with Eleven management. Other players with that agency include Mujangi Bia (at Liege) Cyriac (was at Liege) and Jelle Vossen - on loan at Boro and rumour had it we made a bid in january. According to one source he is now a free agent? Put another way, because of Lepoint and Bia, Staprix is engaged in business with Eleven management.
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
You've come up with 3 examples of bad signings by Alex Ferguson, who was in charge of Manchester United for 27 years. Here's 10 examples of bad signings made by Roland in 18 months - Onyewu, Lepoint, Etheridge, Reza, Nego, Polish Pete, Tucudean, Thuram, Koc.
As you say, all clubs sign dodgy players - the difference is that most do it occasionally, whereas we do it every time a new transfer window opens.
The point still remains that saying 'it would be better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place' is stating the obvious but extremely unlikely. Every club signs stinkers. Id be a lot more pissed off if the players you mentioned cost a lot of money. PP did as is a shocker by RD, cant defend him on that...but we can level that with Igor and JBG.
Also, some players mentioned by yourself are from the first season, when its been admitted the players weren't good enough. Compare that to the season just gone and there is significant improvement.
But Spurs over the last 18 months isn't an example of a normal club signing the odd dodgy player. Spurs, like us, is an example of a club that recruits a lot of poor players.
Since Duchatelet arrived, we've signed 25 to 30 players and roughly a third of them haven't been of the required standard. That isn't normal, it's a pitiful ratio.
Also, they weren't so incredibly dreadful that they couldn't be played at all. Arguably all flops, granted.
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
True, but how often did Manchester United repeat that mistake? Especially in a twelve month period. I'm sure Fergie's successes far outweigh the odd dodgy signing in 25 years.
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
True, but how often did Manchester United repeat that mistake? Especially in a twelve month period. I'm sure Fergie's successes far outweigh the odd dodgy signing in 25 years.
Give it a couple of years and our good transfers under RD will significantly outweigh the poor ones.
And Man Utd are still doing it now on a grand scale....Falcao, Fellaini, Di Maria?
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
True, but how often did Manchester United repeat that mistake? Especially in a twelve month period. I'm sure Fergie's successes far outweigh the odd dodgy signing in 25 years.
Give it a couple of years and our good transfers under RD will significantly outweigh the poor ones.
And Man Utd are still doing it now on a grand scale....Falcao, Fellaini, Di Maria?
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
True, but how often did Manchester United repeat that mistake? Especially in a twelve month period. I'm sure Fergie's successes far outweigh the odd dodgy signing in 25 years.
Give it a couple of years and our good transfers under RD will significantly outweigh the poor ones.
And Man Utd are still doing it now on a grand scale....Falcao, Fellaini, Di Maria?
I thought we paid over £1M for him, although I've no idea why I think that.
I also have that in my head, but like you cannot easily recall any source.
If true, that would be the most worrying part of this particular case.
I believe that number was on someone's post as a rumour but as with most rumours on here was probably quite exaggerated. My guess (and this is purely a guess) is that we bought him for about 700k and are probably selling him for a little bit of a loss. Even if we sold him for a 200k loss, that is not going to break the bank. Truth is we were on a downward slide last year and needed depth badly so we took a risk and it didn't work out. We are a making a mountain out of a molehill on this one a little bit
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
True, but how often did Manchester United repeat that mistake? Especially in a twelve month period. I'm sure Fergie's successes far outweigh the odd dodgy signing in 25 years.
Give it a couple of years and our good transfers under RD will significantly outweigh the poor ones.
And Man Utd are still doing it now on a grand scale....Falcao, Fellaini, Di Maria?
All rejects at their previous clubs I'm sure.
Polish Pete wasnt exactly a reject or rubbish @ his dutch side though
Players like Lepoint and Petrucci hardly played. The real poor ones in my mind are players like Brendan O'Connell who kept it going week in, week out for a whole season!
Scored the winner against palice at The Valley though.
Matt Spring?
O'Connell got a couple of goals...home to Brum and away to Oldham.
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
You've come up with 3 examples of bad signings by Alex Ferguson, who was in charge of Manchester United for 27 years. Here's 10 examples of bad signings made by Roland in 18 months - Onyewu, Lepoint, Etheridge, Reza, Nego, Polish Pete, Tucudean, Thuram, Koc.
As you say, all clubs sign dodgy players - the difference is that most do it occasionally, whereas we do it every time a new transfer window opens.
The point still remains that saying 'it would be better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place' is stating the obvious but extremely unlikely. Every club signs stinkers. Id be a lot more pissed off if the players you mentioned cost a lot of money. PP did as is a shocker by RD, cant defend him on that...but we can level that with Igor and JBG.
Also, some players mentioned by yourself are from the first season, when its been admitted the players weren't good enough. Compare that to the season just gone and there is significant improvement.
But Spurs over the last 18 months isn't an example of a normal club signing the odd dodgy player. Spurs, like us, is an example of a club that recruits a lot of poor players.
Since Duchatelet arrived, we've signed 25 to 30 players and roughly a third of them haven't been of the required standard. That isn't normal, it's a pitiful ratio.
A ratio that will lead to the Belgians relegating us.
Players like Lepoint and Petrucci hardly played. The real poor ones in my mind are players like Brendan O'Connell who kept it going week in, week out for a whole season!
Scored the winner against palice at The Valley though.
Matt Spring?
O'Connell got a couple of goals...home to Brum and away to Oldham.
O'Connell in about 95/6
96/7. Pretty sure he didn't score in that game; that was the Petterson save year and I reckon Jason Lee and Robbo got the goals. Sorry if any of those were figments of my 11 year old's imagination !
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
True, but how often did Manchester United repeat that mistake? Especially in a twelve month period. I'm sure Fergie's successes far outweigh the odd dodgy signing in 25 years.
Give it a couple of years and our good transfers under RD will significantly outweigh the poor ones.
And Man Utd are still doing it now on a grand scale....Falcao, Fellaini, Di Maria?
All rejects at their previous clubs I'm sure.
Polish Pete wasnt exactly a reject or rubbish @ his dutch side though
At a very poor level (in comparison to ours). Fellaini was performing in the EPL, Di Maria performing at one of the biggest clubs in the world as well as for Argentina, and Falcao held an insane goalscoring record at Porto, Atletico aswell as at an International stage for Columbia. Mourinho wouldn't be taking in Falcao if he didn't have near the quality.. Where as our scouts/network are taking risks when they could quite simply not be good enough, if they don't work out for personal reasons then what more can you do - but when you're getting in the likes of an Unorthodox Thuram and it doesn't work out, it was bloody obvious and I can point that out as he signed for us.
The sheer quantity of players we're getting in means we will hit good players, but IMO the profit we can make on one decent player is out shadowed by the countless others we've been pushing under the carpet and off to their next network club. Lepointe I believe we paid a fee for, PP a rather substantial fee all considered, etc. etc.
Some of the good work also has been outshadowed by bad, AA a prime example, quality was in there and fitness wasn't - once he adapted to the play and was gathering some fitness .. off he shoots. Bad man management, just in my opinion though.
Players like Lepoint and Petrucci hardly played. The real poor ones in my mind are players like Brendan O'Connell who kept it going week in, week out for a whole season!
Scored the winner against palice at The Valley though.
Matt Spring?
O'Connell got a couple of goals...home to Brum and away to Oldham.
O'Connell in about 95/6
96/7. Pretty sure he didn't score in that game; that was the Petterson save year and I reckon Jason Lee and Robbo got the goals. Sorry if any of those were figments of my 11 year old's imagination !
At least with the network we can get shot of dodgy signings relatively quickly rather than being lumbered for years with a poor player. The problem is that the network appears to be very successful in finding us utter turkeys (with the odd honourable exception) in the first place.
It would be even better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place...especially when most of those dodgy players come from within the network in the first place.
Name me one team in the country that doesn't.
Ask Sir Alex about Taibi, Kleberson and Eric Djemba Djemba.
True, but how often did Manchester United repeat that mistake? Especially in a twelve month period. I'm sure Fergie's successes far outweigh the odd dodgy signing in 25 years.
Give it a couple of years and our good transfers under RD will significantly outweigh the poor ones.
And Man Utd are still doing it now on a grand scale....Falcao, Fellaini, Di Maria?
All rejects at their previous clubs I'm sure.
Polish Pete wasnt exactly a reject or rubbish @ his dutch side though
At a very poor level (in comparison to ours). Fellaini was performing in the EPL, Di Maria performing at one of the biggest clubs in the world as well as for Argentina, and Falcao held an insane goalscoring record at Porto, Atletico aswell as at an International stage for Columbia. Mourinho wouldn't be taking in Falcao if he didn't have near the quality.. Where as our scouts/network are taking risks when they could quite simply not be good enough, if they don't work out for personal reasons then what more can you do - but when you're getting in the likes of an Unorthodox Thuram and it doesn't work out, it was bloody obvious and I can point that out as he signed for us.
The sheer quantity of players we're getting in means we will hit good players, but IMO the profit we can make on one decent player is out shadowed by the countless others we've been pushing under the carpet and off to their next network club. Lepointe I believe we paid a fee for, PP a rather substantial fee all considered, etc. etc.
Some of the good work also has been outshadowed by bad, AA a prime example, quality was in there and fitness wasn't - once he adapted to the play and was gathering some fitness .. off he shoots. Bad man management, just in my opinion though.
Good points.
Of course other teams make mistakes The key is to make as few as possible. Man utd fell short of their previous high finishing places with their flops.
The problem for Charlton is that the network and its supply of cheaper players was billed as our way of closing the gap on those clubs with much bigger budgets.
For that reason our player recruitment (and sales ie Morrison and the Brecon we must not mention) can't be just as good as other clubs in this division but need to be a lot lot better
80% plus success rate not 33 to 50%
So this is not about making a mountain out of a Le point molehill it is saying that this is an example of a systemic problem with the network.
The club's are meant to be independent units yet recruitment appears to be centralised.
More importantly those making decisions not only get those decisions wrong but the same mistake is then foisted on another network club.
In some cases this works out well ie PP at S TVV and Watt for CAFC but in other cases such as Reza and Tucedean the player flops at more than one network club.
And even in the case of Watt he wasn't a good fit for SL so that decision was again flawed.
Every mistake hits our budget and is an opportunity lost because when we buy A we haven't bought B.
Sort out the recruitment and we have a chance of competing because the network COULD BE an advantage.
Take a look at the above website, which lists last seasons transfer ins and squad stats for each side.
Ive had a quick look in alphabetical order at the first few sides (taking Bournemouth away as they have spent a lot, and Blackpool because they were skint)
Birmingham Grounds - Hit Gunning - Flop Duffy - Flop Donaldson - Hit Johnstone - Flop Davis - Hit Moussi - Flop Morrison - Hit
Blackburn Varney - Flop Duffy - Hit
Bolton Feeney - Hit Taylor - Flop Trotter - Flop Danns - Hit Moxey - Flop Clayton - Flop Kenny - Flop Gudjohnson - Hit Heskey - Flop Twardzik - Flop
Brentford Tebar - Flop Odubajo - Hit Gray - Hit Hogan - Flop Yennaris - Flop O'Shaughnessy - Flop Proschwitz - Flop Smith - Borderline Flop (1 goal) Jota - Hit Macleod - Flop O'connell - Flop
Charlton Igor - Hit Bikey - Flop Moussa - Flop JBG - Hit Ben Haim - Hit Tucadean - Flop Henderson - Hit Watt - Hit Dmitrovic - Flop LePoint- Flop Johnson - Borderline Eagles - Flop
Id imagine its a similar ratio across the whole league, especially those clubs that rely on one or two 'buys' and the rest made up of loans and free transfers.
Take a look at the above website, which lists last seasons transfer ins and squad stats for each side.
Ive had a quick look in alphabetical order at the first few sides (taking Bournemouth away as they have spent a lot, and Blackpool because they were skint)
Birmingham Grounds - Hit Gunning - Flop Duffy - Flop Donaldson - Hit Johnstone - Flop Davis - Hit Moussi - Flop Morrison - Hit
Blackburn Varney - Flop Duffy - Hit
Bolton Feeney - Hit Taylor - Flop Trotter - Flop Danns - Hit Moxey - Flop Clayton - Flop Kenny - Flop Gudjohnson - Hit Heskey - Flop Twardzik - Flop
Brentford Tebar - Flop Odubajo - Hit Gray - Hit Hogan - Flop Yennaris - Flop O'Shaughnessy - Flop Proschwitz - Flop Smith - Borderline Flop (1 goal) Jota - Hit Macleod - Flop O'connell - Flop
Charlton Igor - Hit Bikey - Flop Moussa - Flop JBG - Hit Ben Haim - Hit Tucadean - Flop Henderson - Hit Watt - Hit Dmitrovic - Flop LePoint- Flop Johnson - Borderline Eagles - Flop
Id imagine its a similar ratio across the whole league, especially those clubs that rely on one or two 'buys' and the rest made up of loans and free transfers.
I haven't got time to go through that entire list, but there's plenty there that you have branded a flop that definitely aren't. Emile Heskey played 16 times for Bolton, so they've got value for money from him. Nick Proschwitz has played 20 times for Brentford, so they've got something back for paying his wages. Luke Varney featured 11 times for Blackburn having signed on a free - I'd agree that he's not been a great signing for them, but he's not in the same league as Onyewu and Lepoint, Anil Koc, Polish Pete and so on - Thousands and thousands spent in transfer fees, signing-on fees and wages, with a combined 2 hours football (roughly) in return.
Also, not entirely sure I'd class Igor as a hit - I like him, but 11 goals from a £2.5m signing doesn't strike me as particularly shrewd business.
Take a look at the above website, which lists last seasons transfer ins and squad stats for each side.
Ive had a quick look in alphabetical order at the first few sides (taking Bournemouth away as they have spent a lot, and Blackpool because they were skint)
Birmingham Grounds - Hit Gunning - Flop Duffy - Flop Donaldson - Hit Johnstone - Flop Davis - Hit Moussi - Flop Morrison - Hit
Blackburn Varney - Flop Duffy - Hit
Bolton Feeney - Hit Taylor - Flop Trotter - Flop Danns - Hit Moxey - Flop Clayton - Flop Kenny - Flop Gudjohnson - Hit Heskey - Flop Twardzik - Flop
Brentford Tebar - Flop Odubajo - Hit Gray - Hit Hogan - Flop Yennaris - Flop O'Shaughnessy - Flop Proschwitz - Flop Smith - Borderline Flop (1 goal) Jota - Hit Macleod - Flop O'connell - Flop
Charlton Igor - Hit Bikey - Flop Moussa - Flop JBG - Hit Ben Haim - Hit Tucadean - Flop Henderson - Hit Watt - Hit Dmitrovic - Flop LePoint- Flop Johnson - Borderline Eagles - Flop
Id imagine its a similar ratio across the whole league, especially those clubs that rely on one or two 'buys' and the rest made up of loans and free transfers.
I haven't got time to go through that entire list, but there's plenty there that you have branded a flop that definitely aren't. Emile Heskey played 16 times for Bolton, so they've got value for money from him. Nick Proschwitz has played 20 times for Brentford, so they've got something back for paying his wages. Luke Varney featured 11 times for Blackburn having signed on a free - I'd agree that he's not been a great signing for them, but he's not in the same league as Onyewu and Lepoint, Anil Koc, Polish Pete and so on - Thousands and thousands spent in transfer fees, signing-on fees and wages, with a combined 2 hours football (roughly) in return.
Also, not entirely sure I'd class Igor as a hit - I like him, but 11 goals from a £2.5m signing doesn't strike me as particularly shrewd business.
If you're gonna use Heskeys and Varneys appearances for them being a hit, then ill change Eagles to being a hit (signed 2 months after Heskey, so around the same appearance to month ratio) and Bikey...and Tucadean.
You cant really compare our failures with those of top teams like Man Utd, they are selecting tried and tested players with international experience and big reputations, they pay big money and should normally be buying the best.
We are on the other hand shopping at Lidl, taking players that havent worked at other network clubs, or on free transfers, and risky punts on players who have either lost their way or are unproven. Until we are able to purchase quality players for decent money, I doubt if this will change soon, and we are bound to have a large number of failures in comparison.
Take a look at the above website, which lists last seasons transfer ins and squad stats for each side.
Ive had a quick look in alphabetical order at the first few sides (taking Bournemouth away as they have spent a lot, and Blackpool because they were skint)
Birmingham Grounds - Hit Gunning - Flop Duffy - Flop Donaldson - Hit Johnstone - Flop Davis - Hit Moussi - Flop Morrison - Hit
Blackburn Varney - Flop Duffy - Hit
Bolton Feeney - Hit Taylor - Flop Trotter - Flop Danns - Hit Moxey - Flop Clayton - Flop Kenny - Flop Gudjohnson - Hit Heskey - Flop Twardzik - Flop
Brentford Tebar - Flop Odubajo - Hit Gray - Hit Hogan - Flop Yennaris - Flop O'Shaughnessy - Flop Proschwitz - Flop Smith - Borderline Flop (1 goal) Jota - Hit Macleod - Flop O'connell - Flop
Charlton Igor - Hit Bikey - Flop Moussa - Flop JBG - Hit Ben Haim - Hit Tucadean - Flop Henderson - Hit Watt - Hit Dmitrovic - Flop LePoint- Flop Johnson - Borderline Eagles - Flop
Id imagine its a similar ratio across the whole league, especially those clubs that rely on one or two 'buys' and the rest made up of loans and free transfers.
I haven't got time to go through that entire list, but there's plenty there that you have branded a flop that definitely aren't. Emile Heskey played 16 times for Bolton, so they've got value for money from him. Nick Proschwitz has played 20 times for Brentford, so they've got something back for paying his wages. Luke Varney featured 11 times for Blackburn having signed on a free - I'd agree that he's not been a great signing for them, but he's not in the same league as Onyewu and Lepoint, Anil Koc, Polish Pete and so on - Thousands and thousands spent in transfer fees, signing-on fees and wages, with a combined 2 hours football (roughly) in return.
Also, not entirely sure I'd class Igor as a hit - I like him, but 11 goals from a £2.5m signing doesn't strike me as particularly shrewd business.
If you're gonna use Heskeys and Varneys appearances for them being a hit, then ill change Eagles to being a hit (signed 2 months after Heskey, so around the same appearance to month ratio) and Bikey...and Tucadean.
Yeah that's fine. I probably wouldn't have classed them as flops in the context of this discussion anyway. I agree with you that most clubs will sign players on a fairly regular basis that perhaps don't live up to expectations or fully justify their transfer fee - Falcao, Di Maria, Soldado, etc. I think the point I was trying to make (although I've probably lost sight of it a bit over the last five hours!) is that our scouting system is so poor that, whilst other team's flop's are a bit disappointing, we are uniquely bad in that we are repeatedly signing players who our head coaches aren't even willing to put on the pitch.
You cant really compare our failures with those of top teams like Man Utd, they are selecting tried and tested players with international experience and big reputations, they pay big money and should normally be buying the best.
We are on the other hand shopping at Lidl, taking players that havent worked at other network clubs, or on free transfers, and risky punts on players who have either lost their way or are unproven. Until we are able to purchase quality players for decent money, I doubt if this will change soon, and we are bound to have a large number of failures in comparison.
We were shopping at Lidl when Powell was in charge, and when Curbs was in charge. The difference was that our scouts and managers were able to identify players who were up to the job despite being cheap. You don't need to pay big money to get competent players, you just need to do your research thoroughly in advance.
Nobody in the League 1 championship side was a big money signing, and the same applies to '98 and 2000 promotion winning sides. Mark Kinsella cost us £150k!
Take a look at the above website, which lists last seasons transfer ins and squad stats for each side.
Ive had a quick look in alphabetical order at the first few sides (taking Bournemouth away as they have spent a lot, and Blackpool because they were skint)
Birmingham Grounds - Hit Gunning - Flop Duffy - Flop Donaldson - Hit Johnstone - Flop Davis - Hit Moussi - Flop Morrison - Hit
Blackburn Varney - Flop Duffy - Hit
Bolton Feeney - Hit Taylor - Flop Trotter - Flop Danns - Hit Moxey - Flop Clayton - Flop Kenny - Flop Gudjohnson - Hit Heskey - Flop Twardzik - Flop
Brentford Tebar - Flop Odubajo - Hit Gray - Hit Hogan - Flop Yennaris - Flop O'Shaughnessy - Flop Proschwitz - Flop Smith - Borderline Flop (1 goal) Jota - Hit Macleod - Flop O'connell - Flop
Charlton Igor - Hit Bikey - Flop Moussa - Flop JBG - Hit Ben Haim - Hit Tucadean - Flop Henderson - Hit Watt - Hit Dmitrovic - Flop LePoint- Flop Johnson - Borderline Eagles - Flop
Id imagine its a similar ratio across the whole league, especially those clubs that rely on one or two 'buys' and the rest made up of loans and free transfers.
I haven't got time to go through that entire list, but there's plenty there that you have branded a flop that definitely aren't. Emile Heskey played 16 times for Bolton, so they've got value for money from him. Nick Proschwitz has played 20 times for Brentford, so they've got something back for paying his wages. Luke Varney featured 11 times for Blackburn having signed on a free - I'd agree that he's not been a great signing for them, but he's not in the same league as Onyewu and Lepoint, Anil Koc, Polish Pete and so on - Thousands and thousands spent in transfer fees, signing-on fees and wages, with a combined 2 hours football (roughly) in return.
Also, not entirely sure I'd class Igor as a hit - I like him, but 11 goals from a £2.5m signing doesn't strike me as particularly shrewd business.
If you're gonna use Heskeys and Varneys appearances for them being a hit, then ill change Eagles to being a hit (signed 2 months after Heskey, so around the same appearance to month ratio) and Bikey...and Tucadean.
Yeah that's fine. I probably wouldn't have classed them as flops in the context of this discussion anyway. I agree with you that most clubs will sign players on a fairly regular basis that perhaps don't live up to expectations or fully justify their transfer fee - Falcao, Di Maria, Soldado, etc. I think the point I was trying to make (although I've probably lost sight of it a bit over the last five hours!) is that our scouting system is so poor that, whilst other team's flop's are a bit disappointing, we are uniquely bad in that we are repeatedly signing players who our head coaches aren't even willing to put on the pitch.
If we were having this discussion this time last year, then i would 100% agree with you. However, this season just gone, i believe that the signings made have been pretty good. LePoint fits the point you make on the last sentence, but he came with a decent reputation and it just appears it didn't work for him here. I can handle that every now and then. Moussa has picked up injuries but the rest have all seen game time and in most cases a significant amount.
If the upward trend of quality in long term signings carry's on, then i'm confident that the players brought in for next season will be good enough, and wont 'lead to the Belgians relegating us'.
Take a look at the above website, which lists last seasons transfer ins and squad stats for each side.
Ive had a quick look in alphabetical order at the first few sides (taking Bournemouth away as they have spent a lot, and Blackpool because they were skint)
Birmingham Grounds - Hit Gunning - Flop Duffy - Flop Donaldson - Hit Johnstone - Flop Davis - Hit Moussi - Flop Morrison - Hit
Blackburn Varney - Flop Duffy - Hit
Bolton Feeney - Hit Taylor - Flop Trotter - Flop Danns - Hit Moxey - Flop Clayton - Flop Kenny - Flop Gudjohnson - Hit Heskey - Flop Twardzik - Flop
Brentford Tebar - Flop Odubajo - Hit Gray - Hit Hogan - Flop Yennaris - Flop O'Shaughnessy - Flop Proschwitz - Flop Smith - Borderline Flop (1 goal) Jota - Hit Macleod - Flop O'connell - Flop
Charlton Igor - Hit Bikey - Flop Moussa - Flop JBG - Hit Ben Haim - Hit Tucadean - Flop Henderson - Hit Watt - Hit Dmitrovic - Flop LePoint- Flop Johnson - Borderline Eagles - Flop
Id imagine its a similar ratio across the whole league, especially those clubs that rely on one or two 'buys' and the rest made up of loans and free transfers.
I haven't got time to go through that entire list, but there's plenty there that you have branded a flop that definitely aren't. Emile Heskey played 16 times for Bolton, so they've got value for money from him. Nick Proschwitz has played 20 times for Brentford, so they've got something back for paying his wages. Luke Varney featured 11 times for Blackburn having signed on a free - I'd agree that he's not been a great signing for them, but he's not in the same league as Onyewu and Lepoint, Anil Koc, Polish Pete and so on - Thousands and thousands spent in transfer fees, signing-on fees and wages, with a combined 2 hours football (roughly) in return.
Also, not entirely sure I'd class Igor as a hit - I like him, but 11 goals from a £2.5m signing doesn't strike me as particularly shrewd business.
If you're gonna use Heskeys and Varneys appearances for them being a hit, then ill change Eagles to being a hit (signed 2 months after Heskey, so around the same appearance to month ratio) and Bikey...and Tucadean.
Yeah that's fine. I probably wouldn't have classed them as flops in the context of this discussion anyway. I agree with you that most clubs will sign players on a fairly regular basis that perhaps don't live up to expectations or fully justify their transfer fee - Falcao, Di Maria, Soldado, etc. I think the point I was trying to make (although I've probably lost sight of it a bit over the last five hours!) is that our scouting system is so poor that, whilst other team's flop's are a bit disappointing, we are uniquely bad in that we are repeatedly signing players who our head coaches aren't even willing to put on the pitch.
If we were having this discussion this time last year, then i would 100% agree with you. However, this season just gone, i believe that the signings made have been pretty good. LePoint fits the point you make on the last sentence, but he came with a decent reputation and it just appears it didn't work for him here. I can handle that every now and then. Moussa has picked up injuries but the rest have all seen game time and in most cases a significant amount.
If the upward trend of quality in long term signings carry's on, then i'm confident that the players brought in for next season will be good enough, and wont 'lead to the Belgians relegating us'.
Fair enough. I still need a lot of convincing. One of us can dig this thread out at Christmas and give it some "I told you so"!
Man U signed plenty of duds. Remember Dong Fangzou? David Bellion? Bebe? Jordi Croyff?
People just like to forget about them because it spoils Ferguson's legendary status, but it shouldn't. He is a legend and always will be. Every club signs crap. Every club also signs good players that do well elsewhere later on because the fit wasn't right at the time. Signing a player is always a punt.
Comments
As you say, all clubs sign dodgy players - the difference is that most do it occasionally, whereas we do it every time a new transfer window opens.
Paulinho £17,000,000
Nacer Chadli £7,000,000
Roberto Soldado £26,000,000
Etienne Capoue £9,000,000
Vlad Chiriches £8,500,000
Erik Lamela £25,700,000
Go onto any teams forum and their will be complaints about signings made the previous season.
The point still remains that saying 'it would be better if we didn't sign dodgy players in the first place' is stating the obvious but extremely unlikely. Every club signs stinkers. Id be a lot more pissed off if the players you mentioned cost a lot of money. PP did and is a shocker by RD, cant defend him on that...but we can level that with Igor and JBG.
Also, some players mentioned by yourself are from the first season, when its been admitted the players weren't good enough. Compare that to the season just gone and there is significant improvement.
Since Duchatelet arrived, we've signed 25 to 30 players and roughly a third of them haven't been of the required standard. That isn't normal, it's a pitiful ratio.
So on the face of it 50:50 but most of the flops were signed January 2014 and the board have since acknowledged that they misjudged the challenge. And the flops are gone within six months. Every time.
For sure Karel Freye had an involvement at the start of the Staprix takeover as a football analyst. @seth plum and I both met him in February 2014 at the Birmingham game several weeks before he showed up as Riga's no. 2. He shared some interesting observations about Evina who had a shocker that day. And he was rumoured to have been involved with the Vetokele deal. But we have signed a lot of players since June 2014 and I can't see his fingerprints all over today's squad.
Possibly because he is busy elsewhere? vwhamme.be/index.php/2012-08-12-19-08-51/info-a-kern/20-a-kern/a-kern-spelers/975-karel-fraeye
At this stage the owners and board should know what a 46 game Championship season looks and feels like and should know the calibre of player required. The fact that they have just turfed out the bottom half of the squad in terms of performance and contribution last season suggests to me that they know what is required for next time around. A shame that Ben Haim gone and Buyens not coming back but I don't think we will miss Lepoint together with all the others who were released in May.
Incidentally,there might be nothing in it but Lepoint is with Eleven management. Other players with that agency include Mujangi Bia (at Liege) Cyriac (was at Liege) and Jelle Vossen - on loan at Boro and rumour had it we made a bid in january. According to one source he is now a free agent? Put another way, because of Lepoint and Bia, Staprix is engaged in business with Eleven management.
If true, that would be the most worrying part of this particular case.
And Man Utd are still doing it now on a grand scale....Falcao, Fellaini, Di Maria?
The sheer quantity of players we're getting in means we will hit good players, but IMO the profit we can make on one decent player is out shadowed by the countless others we've been pushing under the carpet and off to their next network club. Lepointe I believe we paid a fee for, PP a rather substantial fee all considered, etc. etc.
Some of the good work also has been outshadowed by bad, AA a prime example, quality was in there and fitness wasn't - once he adapted to the play and was gathering some fitness .. off he shoots. Bad man management, just in my opinion though.
Never mind, we still beat 'them'
https://youtube.com/watch?v=sHyeRiIEK0M
Of course other teams make mistakes
The key is to make as few as possible. Man utd fell short of their previous high finishing places with their flops.
The problem for Charlton is that the network and its supply of cheaper players was billed as our way of closing the gap on those clubs with much bigger budgets.
For that reason our player recruitment (and sales ie Morrison and the Brecon we must not mention) can't be just as good as other clubs in this division but need to be a lot lot better
80% plus success rate not 33 to 50%
So this is not about making a mountain out of a Le point molehill it is saying that this is an example of a systemic problem with the network.
The club's are meant to be independent units yet recruitment appears to be centralised.
More importantly those making decisions not only get those decisions wrong but the same mistake is then foisted on another network club.
In some cases this works out well ie PP at S TVV and Watt for CAFC but in other cases such as Reza and Tucedean the player flops at more than one network club.
And even in the case of Watt he wasn't a good fit for SL so that decision was again flawed.
Every mistake hits our budget and is an opportunity lost because when we buy A we haven't bought B.
Sort out the recruitment and we have a chance of competing because the network COULD BE an advantage.
Take a look at the above website, which lists last seasons transfer ins and squad stats for each side.
Ive had a quick look in alphabetical order at the first few sides (taking Bournemouth away as they have spent a lot, and Blackpool because they were skint)
Birmingham
Grounds - Hit
Gunning - Flop
Duffy - Flop
Donaldson - Hit
Johnstone - Flop
Davis - Hit
Moussi - Flop
Morrison - Hit
Blackburn
Varney - Flop
Duffy - Hit
Bolton
Feeney - Hit
Taylor - Flop
Trotter - Flop
Danns - Hit
Moxey - Flop
Clayton - Flop
Kenny - Flop
Gudjohnson - Hit
Heskey - Flop
Twardzik - Flop
Brentford
Tebar - Flop
Odubajo - Hit
Gray - Hit
Hogan - Flop
Yennaris - Flop
O'Shaughnessy - Flop
Proschwitz - Flop
Smith - Borderline Flop (1 goal)
Jota - Hit
Macleod - Flop
O'connell - Flop
Charlton
Igor - Hit
Bikey - Flop
Moussa - Flop
JBG - Hit
Ben Haim - Hit
Tucadean - Flop
Henderson - Hit
Watt - Hit
Dmitrovic - Flop
LePoint- Flop
Johnson - Borderline
Eagles - Flop
Id imagine its a similar ratio across the whole league, especially those clubs that rely on one or two 'buys' and the rest made up of loans and free transfers.
Also, not entirely sure I'd class Igor as a hit - I like him, but 11 goals from a £2.5m signing doesn't strike me as particularly shrewd business.
We are on the other hand shopping at Lidl, taking players that havent worked at other network clubs, or on free transfers, and risky punts on players who have either lost their way or are unproven. Until we are able to purchase quality players for decent money, I doubt if this will change soon, and we are bound to have a large number of failures in comparison.
Nobody in the League 1 championship side was a big money signing, and the same applies to '98 and 2000 promotion winning sides. Mark Kinsella cost us £150k!
If the upward trend of quality in long term signings carry's on, then i'm confident that the players brought in for next season will be good enough, and wont 'lead to the Belgians relegating us'.
People just like to forget about them because it spoils Ferguson's legendary status, but it shouldn't. He is a legend and always will be. Every club signs crap. Every club also signs good players that do well elsewhere later on because the fit wasn't right at the time. Signing a player is always a punt.