I hate the word 'banter'. Allows anyone who acts in an offensive, aggressive or inappropriate way to hide behind it and take no responsibility for what they said. To tell an opposing player that they hope he breaks his arm or to publicly deride Trott in the way Warner did is not 'banter'.
Whilst Clarke may have the wherewithall to understand the effects of such comments, particularly those against Trott, I fear that Warner has neither the intelligence or gumption to do likewise. Therefore, the English players need to ensure his time in the middle in the remaining tests is as uncomfortable and challenging as it can be.
I hope Trott gets the help and support he needs and I hope England use the situation as a motivator for the rest of the series.
Bell has batted for England at 3 before ... if memory serves he was not a great success. He's better against the older ball, especially at the start of his innings .. Trotts' departure leaves a big hole at the top of the order, there is no obvious replacement. Flower seems to have great faith in his fellow Southern African Ballance. He should reflect that faith and put him at number 3, at least for two tests as a trial by fire. If Ballance is that good and deserving of his place on tour (a situation I have grave doubts about) he needs to prove it. Root, Bell, Pietersen are all later middle order batsmen. Unless Bairstow is chucked in at the deep end, where I suspect he would drown, Ballance is the only option, and a dubious one at that. Trott's sad departure is showing up the weakness of the selected squad. Panesar, Rankin, what are they doing here when Onions, Compton have been left behind. As I have written before, the cupboard reserved for English players of test quality is very bare. The departure of just one player has undermined the whole structure of this team
People talking up Compton are forgetting the fact that whilst he may be a good blocker and leaver he really does not have the range of shots needed for a Test match opener - we already have one 'grinding' opener in Cook - you can't really have two of them.
Plus, we are now behind in the series so we need to win matches now draw them - Compton won't win you many matches with his strike rate so I'd go for Ballance or Stokes.
As for Onions, yes, he is unlucky not to be on the tour but 80 wickets in County cricket - with most of them taken on seaming tracks at Durham in damp conditions - does not mean a lot when it comes to playing on an absolute road in Adelaide in 40 degrees.
Look at Onions in South Africa in 2009/10, he bowled tidily enough in his three Tests but ended up with 8 wickets at 45 each - he would probably not fare much better over here where you usually need height or pace because the ball will not move that much in the air or off the seam.
Root to 3, Prior to 6 and Bresnan at 7. Got to try and utilise our strength which is our bowlers.
Finn might have a case to replace Tremlett but I think the guy performed well in his role at the Gabba.
This. (with Finn) Adelaide wicket expected to be flat as, therefore play an extra bowler. Nothing wrong with Bresnan/Broad at 7/8 either.
I wouldn't be averse to that but the selectors simply don't like "weakening" the batting by playing five bowlers. Equally, if they weren't prepared to bat Prior at 6 when he was in the form of his life, I'm really not sure they're going to do it when he's struggling to work out which end of the bat to hold!
Root to 3, Prior to 6 and Bresnan at 7. Got to try and utilise our strength which is our bowlers.
Finn might have a case to replace Tremlett but I think the guy performed well in his role at the Gabba.
This. (with Finn) Adelaide wicket expected to be flat as, therefore play an extra bowler. Nothing wrong with Bresnan/Broad at 7/8 either.
I wouldn't be averse to that but the selectors simply don't like "weakening" the batting by playing five bowlers. Equally, if they weren't prepared to bat Prior at 6 when he was in the form of his life, I'm really not sure they're going to do it when he's struggling to work out which end of the bat to hold!
I take your point AA - the England selectors are probably too conservative to take this approach. However, I really believe Prior is just as likely to get a score at 6 as is he is at 7 and with Bresnan and Broad backing him up I don't see the problem. (Particularly at Adelaide) We're picking a team for one game here.
if (and i know it's a big if, even though i've written it in little letters) Trott had scored /fluked his way to 60/70 runs in one of his innings in the first Test would he still be out there now , or is it just cos he was pony that this has all come to a head
if (and i know it's a big if, even though i've written it in little letters) Trott had scored /fluked his way to 60/70 runs in one of his innings in the first Test would he still be out there now , or is it just cos he was pony that this has all come to a head
It's because he has a mental illness. Nothing to do with him being Pony ( which he quite clearly isn't )
It is obviously affecting him badly. This is a case where England comes second and Trott and his Family come first.
Agree , so why was he out there in the first place
Because trott said and thought he was up for it. If mental illness was easily identifiable it wouldn't have the stigma it has. I'm sure trott himself didn't have a clue it was some point during the test match that he hit some kind of "rock bottom". People with mental illness think they can cope right up to the point that they cannot cope at all.
England have one of the best back room psychologists in the world, I don't think it was their fault at all. They are there to give support, it's up to the sufferer themselves to identify and seek help which is often the hardest thing to do. They're sports psychologists, not mind readers.
if (and i know it's a big if, even though i've written it in little letters) Trott had scored /fluked his way to 60/70 runs in one of his innings in the first Test would he still be out there now , or is it just cos he was pony that this has all come to a head
It's because he has a mental illness. Nothing to do with him being Pony ( which he quite clearly isn't )
He was pony in the last test (and has been recently but obviously was a top player previously) , which may have been the straw that broke the camels back and pushed him to the point but if he had got some runs I don't think all this would be taking place now , just me speculating but I suppose the England psychologists/management can only go on on what Trott would have told them and Trott clearly wouldn't have known he'd feel this way after the first test no matter how he performed Is he married , does he have close family to support him in England
England have been worried about the frailty of the batting for long and weary as they have looking for the side to bat all the way down to eleven if possible but certainly to ten.Unless the management believed their own spin and misguidedly thought they were going to dismantle the convicts,Trott or anyone with doubtful mental health shouldn't have been anywhere near an Ashes series.The way the Top Order have been looked after and even mollycoddled has baffled me,an England batsman has a horrendous run,gets dropped or takes a break to get himself back in form smacking a few County attacks,then the same lad,Bopara,previously Shah gets a test or two then same chosen one gets back in.What has that done to these lads heads?We have a major problem now,the convicts thought they were hard done by when they found Broad played them at their own game,not walking,they have cheated for years and got away with it.The Summer series score was slightly flattering to England.This is going to take a major display of who really has a set for this not to turn in to the sort of debacle of the magnitude of the 0-5 after winning the Ashes in 2005.
England now refusing to to talk to the Aussie media. Ridiculous scenes today at the airport of everyone just blanking reporters questions. This sort of stance does not work. Australia have battered us physically and mentally so far and we need to stand up to them and not sulk like spoilt kids. Trott and Vaughn have history by the way.
England now refusing to to talk to the Aussie media. Ridiculous scenes today at the airport of everyone just blanking reporters questions. This sort of stance does not work. Australia have battered us physically and mentally so far and we need to stand up to them and not sulk like spoilt kids. Trott and Vaughn have history by the way.
I agree that its futile to ignore the media but the coverage over here has been shocking.
One paper's backpage headline said: "Trott takes his bat and ball and goes home."
Didn't Vaughan accuse Trott of celebrating with the Saffers when they beat us in 2009?
England now refusing to to talk to the Aussie media. Ridiculous scenes today at the airport of everyone just blanking reporters questions. This sort of stance does not work. Australia have battered us physically and mentally so far and we need to stand up to them and not sulk like spoilt kids. Trott and Vaughn have history by the way.
Not sure I agree old chap.
Not everything is a matter of opinion - sometimes things are just plain wrong. The siege mentality has worked before in sport.
Some of the coverage over here, particularly courtesy of News Limited has been shocking - but that is no surprise.
Not sure where I stand on the silent treatment of the press, as in a way it plays into their hands as they can accuse us of being childish and unprofessional etc.
However when we were co-operating with them, and doing press call's etc, they were still slaughtering us and continually having a dig anyway - the Stuart Broad campaign was just plain embarrassing.
As OA said above, I cannot emphasise how much that these guys want to win this, after 16 years of flogging us, these past three defeats have hurt them badly, and now they have a sniff of the old days again.
Time to grow some big ones, as this about to get extremely rough.
Holy Shit! That is an extraordinary piece of writing from a bloke who really has been through it all in Cricket.
I remember in Tony Cascarino's book he points out that for much of his career he wore the "mask" of a Devil-May-Care striker and it was not until he played under Graham Taylor at Villa that he finally found a manager who understood him.
I am paraphrasing here but, in short, Taylor took him aside at training and said, "I have never seen a player make it this far in the game, to top-flight and international football, and yet have absolutely no real belief in themselves - you're terrified aren't you?"
Cascarino finally admitted to Taylor what he had been hiding for the best part of ten years as a pro, that he felt he had been "getting away with it" and should never have made it as a Professional player.
Sadly for Cascarino Taylor left Villa shortly after and it was not until he moved to France that he really found himself again.
OA - Excellent insight re Cascarino. Suspect part of it is the fact that he probably felt he came into the Pro football via the "back door". From Crockenhill on a Saturday and the Kent Suburban League on a Sunday to Gillingham and then the top flight of English football.
Not quite the same as coming through the ranks with other kids at a Premier League Academy.
OA - Excellent insight re Cascarino. Suspect part of it is the fact that he probably felt he came into the Pro football via the "back door". From Crockenhill on a Saturday and the Kent Suburban League on a Sunday to Gillingham and then the top flight of English football.
Not quite the same as coming through the ranks with other kids at a Premier League Academy.
That is basically what he said in his superb auto-biography.
He came from never expecting in a million years that he would be a pro - he did not actually WANT to be one in particular - to being a top-flight player.
He tells a great story of playing for Gills vs Everton in the FAC at Priestfield (Everton were League Champions) and it was 0-0 in the second half.
You can find this on You Tube - but late in the game the ball breaks for Cascarino and he is in the Everton half all on his own with only Southall to beat.
As he is running towards goal he says he actually had an internal mental fight between his "I can score this" side and the "You will never beat Southall" side.
The latter won out and he fluffed the chance - principally because he lacked the belief he could take it.
Comments
Adelaide wicket expected to be flat as, therefore play an extra bowler. Nothing wrong with Bresnan/Broad at 7/8 either.
Whilst Clarke may have the wherewithall to understand the effects of such comments, particularly those against Trott, I fear that Warner has neither the intelligence or gumption to do likewise. Therefore, the English players need to ensure his time in the middle in the remaining tests is as uncomfortable and challenging as it can be.
I hope Trott gets the help and support he needs and I hope England use the situation as a motivator for the rest of the series.
Trott's sad departure is showing up the weakness of the selected squad. Panesar, Rankin, what are they doing here when Onions, Compton have been left behind. As I have written before, the cupboard reserved for English players of test quality is very bare. The departure of just one player has undermined the whole structure of this team
Plus, we are now behind in the series so we need to win matches now draw them - Compton won't win you many matches with his strike rate so I'd go for Ballance or Stokes.
As for Onions, yes, he is unlucky not to be on the tour but 80 wickets in County cricket - with most of them taken on seaming tracks at Durham in damp conditions - does not mean a lot when it comes to playing on an absolute road in Adelaide in 40 degrees.
Look at Onions in South Africa in 2009/10, he bowled tidily enough in his three Tests but ended up with 8 wickets at 45 each - he would probably not fare much better over here where you usually need height or pace because the ball will not move that much in the air or off the seam.
However, I really believe Prior is just as likely to get a score at 6 as is he is at 7 and with Bresnan and Broad backing him up I don't see the problem. (Particularly at Adelaide)
We're picking a team for one game here.
England have one of the best back room psychologists in the world, I don't think it was their fault at all. They are there to give support, it's up to the sufferer themselves to identify and seek help which is often the hardest thing to do. They're sports psychologists, not mind readers.
but if he had got some runs I don't think all this would be taking place now , just me speculating but I suppose the England psychologists/management can only go on on what Trott would have told them and Trott clearly wouldn't have known he'd feel this way after the first test no matter how he performed
Is he married , does he have close family to support him in England
Excellent article on Trott's situation here:
espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/692537.html
Australia have battered us physically and mentally so far and we need to stand up to them and not sulk like spoilt kids.
Trott and Vaughn have history by the way.
One paper's backpage headline said: "Trott takes his bat and ball and goes home."
Didn't Vaughan accuse Trott of celebrating with the Saffers when they beat us in 2009?
Doesn't matter how bad the media is and blanking them completely is the wrong answer.
Time now to really toughen up - the Aussies are desperate to win this - big question is how desperate are we?
Right now, looks like they want it a lot more than we do - with the honorable exception of Stuart Broad.
Our big-name batsmen, Cook, KP and Bell simply have to produce the goods in Adelaide - we need BIG hundreds from them there.
Best bet is to bat first and put on a big score to put them under pressure - easier said than done of course.
Not everything is a matter of opinion - sometimes things are just plain wrong.
The siege mentality has worked before in sport.
Not sure where I stand on the silent treatment of the press, as in a way it plays into their hands as they can accuse us of being childish and unprofessional etc.
However when we were co-operating with them, and doing press call's etc, they were still slaughtering us and continually having a dig anyway - the Stuart Broad campaign was just plain embarrassing.
As OA said above, I cannot emphasise how much that these guys want to win this, after 16 years of flogging us, these past three defeats have hurt them badly, and now they have a sniff of the old days again.
Time to grow some big ones, as this about to get extremely rough.
espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/693959.html
I remember in Tony Cascarino's book he points out that for much of his career he wore the "mask" of a Devil-May-Care striker and it was not until he played under Graham Taylor at Villa that he finally found a manager who understood him.
I am paraphrasing here but, in short, Taylor took him aside at training and said, "I have never seen a player make it this far in the game, to top-flight and international football, and yet have absolutely no real belief in themselves - you're terrified aren't you?"
Cascarino finally admitted to Taylor what he had been hiding for the best part of ten years as a pro, that he felt he had been "getting away with it" and should never have made it as a Professional player.
Sadly for Cascarino Taylor left Villa shortly after and it was not until he moved to France that he really found himself again.
Not quite the same as coming through the ranks with other kids at a Premier League Academy.
He came from never expecting in a million years that he would be a pro - he did not actually WANT to be one in particular - to being a top-flight player.
He tells a great story of playing for Gills vs Everton in the FAC at Priestfield (Everton were League Champions) and it was 0-0 in the second half.
You can find this on You Tube - but late in the game the ball breaks for Cascarino and he is in the Everton half all on his own with only Southall to beat.
As he is running towards goal he says he actually had an internal mental fight between his "I can score this" side and the "You will never beat Southall" side.
The latter won out and he fluffed the chance - principally because he lacked the belief he could take it.