If 'We can see you holding hands' is homophobic then the world has gone mad and I would even go as far as to say that it is disrespectful to genuine victims of homphobic abuse such as those imprisoned, beaten or who have had professional paths blocked because of sexuality.
Will always split people these things because there is always a huge degree of hypocracy in what people individually see as acceptable or funny.
Never been a fan of the Brighton / gay bashing thing. Partly because i quite like Brighton as a club, but mainly because it is just so unorginal. A joke you have heard a thousand times is never funny.
Some things said / chanted do probably need to be reigned in a little by the 'wider football family', but it will be a said day if all forms of old-skool terrace humour gets fully eradicated from game. Football is just getting too serious.
Been struggling to express my views on this, but AFKA has it right - I think that there is a fine line between political correctness & sterility. If you want to watch a sport where there is no passion/humour from the stands but with a little bit of happy clappy every now & again - spend some time here in North America, it's awful. If the price to pay for a bit of atmosphere is some occasional "banter" - I'd take it & I am not ashamed to be largely politically correct.
Disagree.
The alternatives are being set out as "PC" v "sterile" but that is a completely false argument.
Take out "we can see you holding hands", "Kevin Lisbie lives in a tree" or "Brighton take it up the arse" and what have you lost?
Nothing at all.
It doesn't stop singing, atmosphere, jokes, laughing at other teams or players. It just stops racist and homophobic abuse.
The Jeremy Kyle song was brilliant. No swearing, well targeted at Millwall fans and, as far as I know, original.
Think of the best chants/songs are they are funny or relevant not just fourth hand abuse. "we sent the Palace down" "We'll never play you again" "5 - 1 and even Heskey scored"
Although it is supposedly a reflection of what went on when we played them at The Valley. I don't remember there being such outrage at the time from our lot on here.
couldnt agree more thats the problem with this everyones got something to say now about it nothing at the time.
- No-one likes you cos you're scum - The Jeremy Kyle song - The referee is a wanker - Build a bonfire - Dirty Northern Bastards
I take it all these songs won't be heard at The Valley again?
Sheep sheep shaggers You fat bastard Old man, old man Palarse Simon Jordan is a wanker We pay your benefit What's it like to have no job? What's it like to live near Wales? Same old **** always cheating
There's aren't many chants left if you remove all those that could offend someone...
You're totally missing the point.
It's not about offending possibly someone
The songs are meant to "offend" someone. IF IF IF it is a fat or old player then that is who it is pointed at not all fat or old people. It's OK. It is not going to make old or fat people feel uncomfortable or need explaining to your children
If, on the other hand you are abusing a whole racial group with monkey noise or a whole social group with homophobic chants then it is just abuse.
No one has said we can't sing anything or never ever swear or never again make fun of rival fans yet every time these tired old line comes out "
"we won't be able to sing XYZ" NO ONE HAS SAID THAT.
Next it will be "post-96" or "go to the opera, then"
Sing loud, sing a lot, be witty. Just don't be racist or homophobic.
But singing 'we can see you holding hands' isn't homophobic. What it is, is sterotyping all Brighton fans as gay, so the fans that are being 'offended' are the straight ones! If all the Brighton fans were actually gay, then noboby would bother with the chant.
As for offence, everyone has different standards. A lot of older people for example would find the use of the F word far more offensive...
Will always split people these things because there is always a huge degree of hypocracy in what people individually see as acceptable or funny.
Never been a fan of the Brighton / gay bashing thing. Partly because i quite like Brighton as a club, but mainly because it is just so unorginal. A joke you have heard a thousand times is never funny.
Some things said / chanted do probably need to be reigned in a little by the 'wider football family', but it will be a said day if all forms of old-skool terrace humour gets fully eradicated from game. Football is just getting too serious.
Been struggling to express my views on this, but AFKA has it right - I think that there is a fine line between political correctness & sterility. If you want to watch a sport where there is no passion/humour from the stands but with a little bit of happy clappy every now & again - spend some time here in North America, it's awful. If the price to pay for a bit of atmosphere is some occasional "banter" - I'd take it & I am not ashamed to be largely politically correct.
Disagree.
The alternatives are being set out as "PC" v "sterile" but that is a completely false argument.
Take out "we can see you holding hands", "Kevin Lisbie lives in a tree" or "Brighton take it up the arse" and what have you lost?
Nothing at all.
It doesn't stop singing, atmosphere, jokes, laughing at other teams or players. It just stops racist and homophobic abuse.
The Jeremy Kyle song was brilliant. No swearing, well targeted at Millwall fans and, as far as I know, original.
Think of the best chants/songs are they are funny or relevant not just fourth hand abuse. "we sent the Palace down" "We'll never play you again" "5 - 1 and even Heskey scored"
So basically the Jeremy Kyle song is saying all Millwall fans are wife beating, welfare living scum - nice. Glad to see you approve of that one - some might find it offensive but because they are not a different colour or gay it doesn't matter.
Don't think anyone has the right to take on the self-appointed moral guardian role, as their arguments soon fall apart.
As stated on another thread, has anybody given ANY consideration to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, these songs are sung as a way of laughing at the ridiculous stereotype that 'Brighton is made up of only gay people'.
Not necessarily a way of targeting a social group, or abusing someone.
I just find it hard to believe that people would sing these songs because they genuinely believe the myth that all gay people live in Brighton.
At the end of the day, if a set of supporters genuinely were homophobic and wanted to offend, then they would sing something a bit stronger than "we can see you holding hands" FFS!
It's an interesting question as to whether "we can see you holding hands" is homophobic or not.
It could certainly be taken either way. It could be very persuasively argued that it's not homophobic, that it is only offensive to Brighton fans who are homophobic and don't want to be accused of holding hands with each other. If taken that way it is actually a very clever chant.
Of course the opposite argument is the chant is both accusing Brighton fans of holding hands and that there is something particularly wrong/song-worthy about that act.
Couple of points; 1) Palace scored 5, Brighton scored none, Brighton take it up the bum. Really shows the level of wit in Surrey. 2) Society doesn't view really homophobia and racism in the same light. Gay marriage is still being debated (personally I don't know what the difference with a civil partnership is but anyway...) and it will be a while before that's all resolved etc etc. You have to be deluded to believe that football can be the fore runner in this, especially as so few players world wide have come out. It's not something to be proud of as a fan just the ways things are. 3) There is a difference between want goes on at a football game and the street, I never can understand that argument! It doesn't mean it's right, just that their is a difference. 4) The chants directed at Brighton are dull.
Will always split people these things because there is always a huge degree of hypocracy in what people individually see as acceptable or funny.
Never been a fan of the Brighton / gay bashing thing. Partly because i quite like Brighton as a club, but mainly because it is just so unorginal. A joke you have heard a thousand times is never funny.
Some things said / chanted do probably need to be reigned in a little by the 'wider football family', but it will be a said day if all forms of old-skool terrace humour gets fully eradicated from game. Football is just getting too serious.
Been struggling to express my views on this, but AFKA has it right - I think that there is a fine line between political correctness & sterility. If you want to watch a sport where there is no passion/humour from the stands but with a little bit of happy clappy every now & again - spend some time here in North America, it's awful. If the price to pay for a bit of atmosphere is some occasional "banter" - I'd take it & I am not ashamed to be largely politically correct.
Disagree.
The alternatives are being set out as "PC" v "sterile" but that is a completely false argument.
Take out "we can see you holding hands", "Kevin Lisbie lives in a tree" or "Brighton take it up the arse" and what have you lost?
Nothing at all.
It doesn't stop singing, atmosphere, jokes, laughing at other teams or players. It just stops racist and homophobic abuse.
The Jeremy Kyle song was brilliant. No swearing, well targeted at Millwall fans and, as far as I know, original.
Think of the best chants/songs are they are funny or relevant not just fourth hand abuse. "we sent the Palace down" "We'll never play you again" "5 - 1 and even Heskey scored"
Don't think anyone has the right to take on the self-appointed moral guardian role, as their arguments soon fall apart.
Ergh, wasn't that exactly what you were doing with you post about American sport and sterile v PC but I agree your arguments did soon fall apart.
PS never watch Jeremy Kyle but I'll take you word for it on the content.
I was sat with Brighton fans last night and heard no homophobic chants from the Charlton fans from where I was sitting. Regarding songs, I have never understood: "You've never won f*** all...." This means they've won something!!
I remember in that documentary about why there haven't been any openly gay footballers since Justin Fashanu the interviewer was talking to Matt Lucas and listed some of the chants aimed at Brighton fans. His stance was that he thought 'we can see you holding hands' was quite witty and not particularly offensive, and that for him was the line. Mindless abuse offended him, but that particular chant he was as a bit of gentle wit. I'm aware that he doesn't speak for the entire gay community, nor is he a Brighton fan but as chants go I've always thought that one was playing on the stereotype of Brighton rather than actively being used to abuse. All the 'you take it up the arse' stuff is a lot more violent and aggressive and doesn't have a scrap of thought behind it. That's the kind of stuff I don't like to hear. But then having said that I've wasn't there yesterday and I generally only get involved in songs that are about our players. The complimentary ones.
I was sat with Brighton fans last night and heard no homophobic chants from the Charlton fans from where I was sitting. Regarding songs, I have never understood: "You've never won f*** all...." This means they've won something!!
That one annoys me as well! Also We're England 'till we die. WTF?
I'm still waiting for someone to start a post with 'I'm not homophobic, I have lots of gay friends, but...'
It scares me that some people seem to feel that they have the right to decide whether or not certain groups of people should be offended in certain situations.
If it is not homophobic sing it on Saturday v Leeds or v Barnsley
Because Brighton is famous for having a large gay community. Similarly you wouldn't sing sheep shaggers when playing Leeds either, as everyone knows it's the Welsh who have lots of sheep, that they like having intimate activites with. Leeds fans are dirty Northern Bastards who go home to beat the wife (sarcasm)
On the report it clearly says that charlton sang we can see you holding hands
Now if you find that offensive then do not got to football
Surely singing about building a fire and putting people on the top and bottom is more offensive
But i deem both nothing other than banter
Some people need to let go of hands and get a flipping grip on something else like real life
I am with NLA on this one, the fact that a "report" exists with a statement stating our fans sang "we can see you holding hands" is laughable. Clearly these people have to much time on their hands and need to get in touch with the real world. Yet another example of PC for the sake of PC.
How sterile do these people want to make football matches?
As with most jokes that rely on a stereotype, it's not the truth that's funny, it's the stereotype that's being laughed at. ALL Irish people are stupid, ALL Scottish people are alcoholic, ALL people from Norwich are inbred, ALL people from Brighton are gay. Any sane adult knows these are ludicrous generalisations - Of course intelligence is not determined by where you live, of course any kind of addiction can happen to anyone and is not influenced by where you live, inbreeding, supposedly happened hundreds of years ago, but even that is open to debate. And for goodness sake, while I accept that there is a large gay community in Brighton, you do not automatically turn homosexual when you walk down that pier. While I'm not advocating jokes about any of the above stereotypes, they are only deemed funny because of the stereotype. Because if everyone from Ireland really was stupid, then it wouldn't be funny. And if everyone who lived in Brighton was gay, then it wouldn't be funny to say 'we can see you holding hands' because they wouldn't react. When you make a huge deal out of things like this you only serve to perpetuate the stereotype. If I wrote a letter of complaint every time I heard a certain stereotype about a certain physical feature of my family, I would never get anything done. Instead I get on with my life.
When asked how you end racism, Morgan Freeman replied: "You stop talking about it". And while that is a pretty simplistic view, he wasn't far wrong.
As stated on another thread, has anybody given ANY consideration to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, these songs are sung as a way of laughing at the ridiculous stereotype that 'Brighton is made up of only gay people'.
Not necessarily a way of targeting a social group, or abusing someone.
I just find it hard to believe that people would sing these songs because they genuinely believe the myth that all gay people live in Brighton.
At the end of the day, if a set of supporters genuinely were homophobic and wanted to offend, then they would sing something a bit stronger than "we can see you holding hands" FFS!
Sorry if I've at all stepped on your point but I only just saw it.
It's an interesting question as to whether "we can see you holding hands" is homophobic or not.
It could certainly be taken either way. It could be very persuasively argued that it's not homophobic, that it is only offensive to Brighton fans who are homophobic and don't want to be accused of holding hands with each other. If taken that way it is actually a very clever chant. Of course the opposite argument is the chant is both accusing Brighton fans of holding hands and that there is something particularly wrong/song-worthy about that act.
I think this is the case to a certain extent,by the looks of the group on the BBC it is straight Brighton fans getting annoyed about being called gay,not gay fans complaining that they are being abused
I expect to be slated for this, but why do derogatory chants have to be sung about anyone? I expect there will be the usual cries of 'banter', but wouldn't it be much nicer if everyone sang positive chants, that actually support their team rather than a load of vitriolic abuse?
So can anyone provide some form of estimate as to the number of gay fans at the game last night ? Were there any ?
That's the second time you've asked that ridiculous question. Do you think they have to give their sexual orientation when they buy their season tickets? It does not matter if it's 1 or 1000. That's not the point.
As with most jokes that rely on a stereotype, it's not the truth that's funny, it's the stereotype that's being laughed at. ALL Irish people are stupid, ALL Scottish people are alcoholic, ALL people from Norwich are inbred, ALL people from Brighton are gay. Any sane adult knows these are ludicrous generalisations - Of course intelligence is not determined by where you live, of course any kind of addiction can happen to anyone and is not influenced by where you live, inbreeding, supposedly happened hundreds of years ago, but even that is open to debate. And for goodness sake, while I accept that there is a large gay community in Brighton, you do not automatically turn homosexual when you walk down that pier. While I'm not advocating jokes about any of the above stereotypes, they are only deemed funny because of the stereotype. Because if everyone from Ireland really was stupid, then it wouldn't be funny. And if everyone who lived in Brighton was gay, then it wouldn't be funny to say 'we can see you holding hands' because they wouldn't react. When you make a huge deal out of things like this you only serve to perpetuate the stereotype. If I wrote a letter of complaint every time I heard a certain stereotype about a certain physical feature of my family, I would never get anything done. Instead I get on with my life.
When asked how you end racism, Morgan Freeman replied: "You stop talking about it". And while that is a pretty simplistic view, he wasn't far wrong.
But here's the problem: you're equating being stupid or inbred with being gay.
You're not saying "There's nothing wrong with being gay". You're saying "all people from Brighton aren't gay, so its only a joke".
As with most jokes that rely on a stereotype, it's not the truth that's funny, it's the stereotype that's being laughed at. ALL Irish people are stupid, ALL Scottish people are alcoholic, ALL people from Norwich are inbred, ALL people from Brighton are gay. Any sane adult knows these are ludicrous generalisations - Of course intelligence is not determined by where you live, of course any kind of addiction can happen to anyone and is not influenced by where you live, inbreeding, supposedly happened hundreds of years ago, but even that is open to debate. And for goodness sake, while I accept that there is a large gay community in Brighton, you do not automatically turn homosexual when you walk down that pier. While I'm not advocating jokes about any of the above stereotypes, they are only deemed funny because of the stereotype. Because if everyone from Ireland really was stupid, then it wouldn't be funny. And if everyone who lived in Brighton was gay, then it wouldn't be funny to say 'we can see you holding hands' because they wouldn't react. When you make a huge deal out of things like this you only serve to perpetuate the stereotype. If I wrote a letter of complaint every time I heard a certain stereotype about a certain physical feature of my family, I would never get anything done. Instead I get on with my life.
When asked how you end racism, Morgan Freeman replied: "You stop talking about it". And while that is a pretty simplistic view, he wasn't far wrong.
But here's the problem: you're equating being stupid or inbred with being gay.
You're not saying "There's nothing wrong with being gay". You're saying "all people from Brighton aren't gay, so its only a joke".
I'm not equating them, I'm equating the exaggerated stereotype of each in each area.
And just like I find it hard to believe I had to spell out so much which should be implied in the above post, I didn't feel I had to say 'there's nothing wrong with being gay'. How can there be anything wrong with that which you do not choose?
I remember a school teacher going off at a pupil because he shouted "I'm not gay!" and the teacher said "what's wrong with being gay?". Same thing. As a straight man, why the hell would you care? Unless it was going to affect your ability to pull birds. (Joke).
Comments
Do we have gay fans?
I know a couple of lesbian fans.
What about 'gay for a fiver day'?
Or 'queers for a quid'?
There is a pink pound gap in the market here.
The alternatives are being set out as "PC" v "sterile" but that is a completely false argument.
Take out "we can see you holding hands", "Kevin Lisbie lives in a tree" or "Brighton take it up the arse" and what have you lost?
Nothing at all.
It doesn't stop singing, atmosphere, jokes, laughing at other teams or players. It just stops racist and homophobic abuse.
The Jeremy Kyle song was brilliant. No swearing, well targeted at Millwall fans and, as far as I know, original.
Think of the best chants/songs are they are funny or relevant not just fourth hand abuse. "we sent the Palace down" "We'll never play you again" "5 - 1 and even Heskey scored"
Bit different to some of the stuff that Bristol city and Forest sang, that's pushing it too far.
As for offence, everyone has different standards. A lot of older people for example would find the use of the F word far more offensive...
If it is not homophobic sing it on Saturday v Leeds or v Barnsley
Don't think anyone has the right to take on the self-appointed moral guardian role, as their arguments soon fall apart.
If people thing WCSYHH is OK what isn't OK? Which of the other songs would not be un/acceptable?
Not necessarily a way of targeting a social group, or abusing someone.
I just find it hard to believe that people would sing these songs because they genuinely believe the myth that all gay people live in Brighton.
At the end of the day, if a set of supporters genuinely were homophobic and wanted to offend, then they would sing something a bit stronger than "we can see you holding hands" FFS!
It could certainly be taken either way. It could be very persuasively argued that it's not homophobic, that it is only offensive to Brighton fans who are homophobic and don't want to be accused of holding hands with each other. If taken that way it is actually a very clever chant.
Of course the opposite argument is the chant is both accusing Brighton fans of holding hands and that there is something particularly wrong/song-worthy about that act.
1) Palace scored 5, Brighton scored none, Brighton take it up the bum. Really shows the level of wit in Surrey.
2) Society doesn't view really homophobia and racism in the same light. Gay marriage is still being debated (personally I don't know what the difference with a civil partnership is but anyway...) and it will be a while before that's all resolved etc etc. You have to be deluded to believe that football can be the fore runner in this, especially as so few players world wide have come out. It's not something to be proud of as a fan just the ways things are.
3) There is a difference between want goes on at a football game and the street, I never can understand that argument! It doesn't mean it's right, just that their is a difference.
4) The chants directed at Brighton are dull.
PS never watch Jeremy Kyle but I'll take you word for it on the content.
Regarding songs, I have never understood:
"You've never won f*** all...." This means they've won something!!
It scares me that some people seem to feel that they have the right to decide whether or not certain groups of people should be offended in certain situations.
How sterile do these people want to make football matches?
As with most jokes that rely on a stereotype, it's not the truth that's funny, it's the stereotype that's being laughed at. ALL Irish people are stupid, ALL Scottish people are alcoholic, ALL people from Norwich are inbred, ALL people from Brighton are gay. Any sane adult knows these are ludicrous generalisations - Of course intelligence is not determined by where you live, of course any kind of addiction can happen to anyone and is not influenced by where you live, inbreeding, supposedly happened hundreds of years ago, but even that is open to debate. And for goodness sake, while I accept that there is a large gay community in Brighton, you do not automatically turn homosexual when you walk down that pier. While I'm not advocating jokes about any of the above stereotypes, they are only deemed funny because of the stereotype. Because if everyone from Ireland really was stupid, then it wouldn't be funny. And if everyone who lived in Brighton was gay, then it wouldn't be funny to say 'we can see you holding hands' because they wouldn't react. When you make a huge deal out of things like this you only serve to perpetuate the stereotype. If I wrote a letter of complaint every time I heard a certain stereotype about a certain physical feature of my family, I would never get anything done. Instead I get on with my life.
When asked how you end racism, Morgan Freeman replied: "You stop talking about it". And while that is a pretty simplistic view, he wasn't far wrong.
You're not saying "There's nothing wrong with being gay". You're saying "all people from Brighton aren't gay, so its only a joke".
And just like I find it hard to believe I had to spell out so much which should be implied in the above post, I didn't feel I had to say 'there's nothing wrong with being gay'. How can there be anything wrong with that which you do not choose?
I remember a school teacher going off at a pupil because he shouted "I'm not gay!" and the teacher said "what's wrong with being gay?". Same thing. As a straight man, why the hell would you care? Unless it was going to affect your ability to pull birds. (Joke).