Rather than going in the lets change everything school of management - there is a lot to be said for the lets make small changes incremental approach - look at British Cycling if you want an example. For example why is Hamers handling so variable - it might just be something as simple as not wearing enough thermals in cold weather!
No. We walked the league last year through the determination and hard work the players put in, which in this league doesn't get you anywhere. The championship isn't about work rate but its all about class and technical ability which we lack.
Rather than going in the lets change everything school of management - there is a lot to be said for the lets make small changes incremental approach - look at British Cycling if you want an example. For example why is Hamers handling so variable - it might just be something as simple as not wearing enough thermals in cold weather!
Do you mean it's difficult holding onto balls in freezing weather, sm ?
I thankfully decided to stay in bed in the warm whinging about my hangover yesterday.
However, Forest away and Boro at home are the best opposition performances I've seen this season. The former are bankrolled by billionaires, and 2-1 flattered us up there. They have a new manager who is one of the best in the Championship and whose players will all be trying to prove a point for.
Yes yesterday I'm sure was crap and the performance limp, but we are an inconsistent midtable team already punching above our weight whilst Forest have players like McGugan and Sharp on the bench. It's frustrating, it often feels like a waste of money going, but days like yesterday make the wins at Leicester, Watford, Burnley etc all the better.
As we all know, a lot of it comes down to money. Partly due to this our midfield is weak which puts the defence under pressure and doesn't supply the top of the pitch enough. Had we gone 4-4-2 and lost, people would have been going on about how we got overrun and should have played 4-5-1 etc etc.
Until we can improve the middle, this sort of thing will keep happening but look at the table; 99% of Charlton fans would have taken 14th at this stage, whilst 3 more wins and couple of draws from 12 games (so we can still afford to lose half) will see us safe and that's what this season was always about. Put it all in perspective.
Actually, what he said was that our midfield has been "sub-standard since the start of last season".
Now I would tend to agree that in our current league it's not the greatest. But last year??? Remind me just how many goals Jackson scored last year, for exanple.
Stand by my comment that the midfield has been sub standard since the start of last season. Not saying that individually there are not some very decent performers and of course Jackson is one. Collectively I still think that they are below (sub) for what is needed in this division. Green, Kerkar, Wagstaff, Stephens, Pritchard, Hollands, Dervite are all IMHO way off where we need to be. Get the midfield up to standard and I think our front players and defence are fine.
I know Kermorgant got sent off yesterday, so in retrospective having a striker in on loan seems a good idea, but I would have got a loanee midfielder, as we are weak in that area. Indeed, when you consider that from last season's team, Hollands has been out on loan and injured, Hughes injured and Russell wasn't retained, we're actually weaker than last season at the moment!
It didn't entirely work out, but Frimpong was a sensible loan, and clearly someone brought in for strategic reasons, rather than to cover an injury (like Seaborne). That weakness in the team is still there.
Actually, what he said was that our midfield has been "sub-standard since the start of last season".
Now I would tend to agree that in our current league it's not the greatest. But last year??? Remind me just how many goals Jackson scored last year, for exanple.
Stand by my comment that the midfield has been sub standard since the start of last season. Not saying that individually there are not some very decent performers and of course Jackson is one. Collectively I still think that they are below (sub) for what is needed in this division. Green, Kerkar, Wagstaff, Stephens, Pritchard, Hollands, Dervite are all IMHO way off where we need to be. Get the midfield up to standard and I think our front players and defence are fine.
Watched the football league highlights last night and earlier on the red button.
Definite kick from Yann leaving the ref with no option but to do something. The only question is whether the rules allowed discretion for yellow rather than red.
I assume not.
The first goal Solly was beaten and Waggy rushed to cover and tried screening the ball a la Morrison or Cort for Hamer. Hamer didn't come and Waggy was unceremoniously bundled out of the way. In my book the fault lies with Hamer rather than Waggy. Hamer's communication with Cort was poor in the first half too. Second goal poor handling by Hamer.
I like Ben and think he is decent but a couple of crucial mistakes yesterday IMHO.
Actually, what he said was that our midfield has been "sub-standard since the start of last season".
Now I would tend to agree that in our current league it's not the greatest. But last year??? Remind me just how many goals Jackson scored last year, for exanple.
Stand by my comment that the midfield has been sub standard since the start of last season. Not saying that individually there are not some very decent performers and of course Jackson is one. Collectively I still think that they are below (sub) for what is needed in this division. Green, Kerkar, Wagstaff, Stephens, Pritchard, Hollands, Dervite are all IMHO way off where we need to be. Get the midfield up to standard and I think our front players and defence are fine.
This division , maybe.
But League 1? I would say they were above average/standard for League 1. Maybe not the best midfield in the division - though would struggle to think of a consistantly better midfield unit last year - but definitely not "sub standard". That just can't be right.
Now, if we were talking about the season before last then I could maybe agree.
It doesn't matter about level - anybody who has played in midfield may have experienced it in a team where everybody is running for you and you always have an outball and one where everybody is closed down/marked. One makes you look good and the other makes you look bad.
To be fair to our midfield, opposing fans have claimed we have beaten them in that area on many an occasion this season albeit usually away. The issue yesterday was that Forest shackled Kermogant well and Leicester didn't on Tuesday. There was an incident early in the first half when Stephens had the ball and you could see his was looking to play a ball for a wide man to run on to, but nobody was making the run so he kept the ball a second longer and was then robbed. I'd rather he kept looking for that killer ball but he needs help - the formation, and Forest, didn't allow it yesterday.
Pick up another couple of wins quickly and then it might be time for Chrissy to experiment a bit and find that magic formula at the Valley. 4-5-1 certainly isn't the way to go at home although I'm pretty convinced it is the best way for us away.
I think last season was won because we had a Championship defence and a very good L1 attack. Very often I felt we were out thought and fought in midfield but that's just my opinion.
That's unbelievably unfair on Hollands, Jackson, Stephens, Pritchard etc. You don't win a league with the highest ever points total if any part of your team is sub-standard. When BWP wasn't scoring and Yann wasn't prolific we still won almost all of our matches and you can't do that without a good midfield. I know when we've just had a bad result it's easy to be down in the mouth but come on now
I cant recall after 45 years of going to watch Charlton a more dire desperate performance as yesterday......and yes i have been to most.......i have missed 1 game since xmas 1998.
It was so bad even at 20 mins into the game the home fans were cheering when we strung 3 passes together. If i was Powell i would make them sit and watch the whole 90 mins on video all day monday and tuesday and tell them any more of that and your out...who replaces them...i dont care cos they wont be as bad.
But it was 0-0 at half time. I cant remember a more dire display than Palace's against us in the first half at Sellout, but they had 11 men and made changes and beat us. We can't know what would have happened had Yann kept his head.
Not much you can take from the game - other than 4-5-1 is probably not the best way to go at home and we need better discipline. No need for overreactions.
Chippy CAFC.45 Years supporting charlton?So you started in 68 same as me .I can recall 127[ish] worse performances in the last 45 years .I assume you didnt watch any matches when we went down in 1972 or any in 1973 etc .What about the season we got relegated to third tier under pardew and parky some games we didnt even touch the ball.Stop exagerating and man up.
But it was 0-0 at half time. I cant remember a more dire display than Palace's against us in the first half at Sellout, but they had 11 men and made changes and beat us. We can't know what would have happened had Yann kept his head.
Not much you can take from the game - other than 4-5-1 is probably not the best way to go at home and we need better discipline. No need for overreactions.
I think though Mutts, that, as a few people have already mentioned - we had hardly had a kick before Kerny got sent off anyway.
We had beaten a top six side a few days earlier- just pointing out some perspective is required. 4-5-1 wasn't working before Yann got sent off- I would have changed it sooner as I think as a manager you have to ask yourself the question, is it suddenly going to start working? If the answer is no, then there is no point continuing. But we did have good attacking options on the bench and had Yann not got sent off at 0-0, we could have changed things around. That is where the perspective needs to come in!
I think last season was won because we had a Championship defence and a very good L1 attack. Very often I felt we were out thought and fought in midfield but that's just my opinion.
I think last season was won because we had a Championship defence and a very good L1 attack. Very often I felt we were out thought and fought in midfield but that's just my opinion.
Thats a great post with the exception of the goal keeping positon at the tail end of last season we all questioned whether the midfield was the issue coming into this season and it clearly is the problem.
ooo--jjj---ooo.Any football match has to include hard work.Barca work harder than any team.Then as you get higher up the class has to be increased.We have what we have .Hard workers and little snatches of class.fuller against peterboro,haynes against leicester .If we keep the work ethic and team spirit and add class we will do better next year.
I thankfully decided to stay in bed in the warm whinging about my hangover yesterday.
However, Forest away and Boro at home are the best opposition performances I've seen this season. The former are bankrolled by billionaires, and 2-1 flattered us up there. They have a new manager who is one of the best in the Championship and whose players will all be trying to prove a point for.
Yes yesterday I'm sure was crap and the performance limp, but we are an inconsistent midtable team already punching above our weight whilst Forest have players like McGugan and Sharp on the bench. It's frustrating, it often feels like a waste of money going, but days like yesterday make the wins at Leicester, Watford, Burnley etc all the better.
As we all know, a lot of it comes down to money. Partly due to this our midfield is weak which puts the defence under pressure and doesn't supply the top of the pitch enough. Had we gone 4-4-2 and lost, people would have been going on about how we got overrun and should have played 4-5-1 etc etc.
Until we can improve the middle, this sort of thing will keep happening but look at the table; 99% of Charlton fans would have taken 14th at this stage, whilst 3 more wins and couple of draws from 12 games (so we can still afford to lose half) will see us safe and that's what this season was always about. Put it all in perspective.
In short, in SCP we should trust.
Great post, RedPanda. Sums it up really for me.
Think those of us who were there yesterday could be forgiven for forgetting that this is NOT a level playing field ( in more ways than one !) A freezing day with little to warm us up from the pitch does make the most ardent supporter feel a bit sorry for himself. At least I had the memories of the Leics win to reassure me that we can hold our own , albeit away from home. I just feel for those who aren't able to travel on a regular basis and can understand their frustration.
But as you rightly state, we should put it all into perspective.
Mind you, 3 points next Saturday would cheer up the most depressed Addick, I'm sure !
Two issues yesterday, the starting formation and the fact Yann got sent off. The first was fixable, the second did for us. A bit simplistic to blame the midfield IMO.
I cant recall after 45 years of going to watch Charlton a more dire desperate performance as yesterday......and yes i have been to most.......i have missed 1 game since xmas 1998.
It was so bad even at 20 mins into the game the home fans were cheering when we strung 3 passes together. If i was Powell i would make them sit and watch the whole 90 mins on video all day monday and tuesday and tell them any more of that and your out...who replaces them...i dont care cos they wont be as bad.
this for me. I can't beleive some of the posts on here defending CP or the players after yesterday - it seems that some people just have to have a contrary view just to be different.
I think most of us on here recognise that CP has done a brilliant job since he took over from Parky - he assembled a title winning squad out of almost nothing and this season he wasn't allowed allowed to spend anything apart from on Wilson.
HOWEVER
anyone watching from the stands yesterday will have to conceed that they witnessed one of the most inept, shocking & abysmal performances that a CAFC team has ever given. Forget about the sending off as that may have actually had a galvanisng effect (it did amongst the fans) and it certainly shielded CP from a huge corrus of boos at half-time, which were then directed at the ref & not the team. For the first 20 mins we hardly touched the ball as Forest passed around us and ripped us open many times - when we did get a touch we then gave it away - Stephens being the biggist culprit. I don't think I've ever seen an opening half where we we were so outplayed & outclassed...............yes , Forest have some decent players but even when we were in the Premiership for the first time in 98/99 playing Man U & Arsenal we were never that bad. It is totally un-excusable for any footballer of any standard not being able to pass 10 yards to his team mate or to be able to tackle & win the ball back. To my mind CP should shoulder most of the blame for picking the wrong team & the wrong formation, but once on the pitch if a player can't run 20 yards with the ball at his feet and pass to a fellow player then there isn't a lot CP can do.
btw - I WAS at Leicester, so I have seen both good & bad performances by the same players.
A lot of the despondency in my view is because the majority only see home games.
Speaking for myself I've missed 3 home games this season. Leicester (work), Hull (visiting family) and Peterborough (ill). In other words two of our four home wins and one of our better draws.
I said at the start of the season I'd take 21st right now and was belittled for it by the Charlton Life Great and Good.
SCP has worked wonders in this division with the resources at his disposal but there are some on here and in the ground who want him out regardless of what he does sadly.
Comments
We walked the league last year through the determination and hard work the players put in, which in this league doesn't get you anywhere. The championship isn't about work rate but its all about class and technical ability which we lack.
Only positive is Wiggins getting through another 90mins unscathed, just hope we can keep hold of him. Midfield needs a serious shake up in the summer
However, Forest away and Boro at home are the best opposition performances I've seen this season. The former are bankrolled by billionaires, and 2-1 flattered us up there. They have a new manager who is one of the best in the Championship and whose players will all be trying to prove a point for.
Yes yesterday I'm sure was crap and the performance limp, but we are an inconsistent midtable team already punching above our weight whilst Forest have players like McGugan and Sharp on the bench. It's frustrating, it often feels like a waste of money going, but days like yesterday make the wins at Leicester, Watford, Burnley etc all the better.
As we all know, a lot of it comes down to money. Partly due to this our midfield is weak which puts the defence under pressure and doesn't supply the top of the pitch enough. Had we gone 4-4-2 and lost, people would have been going on about how we got overrun and should have played 4-5-1 etc etc.
Until we can improve the middle, this sort of thing will keep happening but look at the table; 99% of Charlton fans would have taken 14th at this stage, whilst 3 more wins and couple of draws from 12 games (so we can still afford to lose half) will see us safe and that's what this season was always about. Put it all in perspective.
In short, in SCP we should trust.
It didn't entirely work out, but Frimpong was a sensible loan, and clearly someone brought in for strategic reasons, rather than to cover an injury (like Seaborne). That weakness in the team is still there.
Definite kick from Yann leaving the ref with no option but to do something. The only question is whether the rules allowed discretion for yellow rather than red.
I assume not.
The first goal Solly was beaten and Waggy rushed to cover and tried screening the ball a la Morrison or Cort for Hamer. Hamer didn't come and Waggy was unceremoniously bundled out of the way. In my book the fault lies with Hamer rather than Waggy. Hamer's communication with Cort was poor in the first half too. Second goal poor handling by Hamer.
I like Ben and think he is decent but a couple of crucial mistakes yesterday IMHO.
But League 1? I would say they were above average/standard for League 1. Maybe not the best midfield in the division - though would struggle to think of a consistantly better midfield unit last year - but definitely not "sub standard". That just can't be right.
Now, if we were talking about the season before last then I could maybe agree.
To be fair to our midfield, opposing fans have claimed we have beaten them in that area on many an occasion this season albeit usually away. The issue yesterday was that Forest shackled Kermogant well and Leicester didn't on Tuesday. There was an incident early in the first half when Stephens had the ball and you could see his was looking to play a ball for a wide man to run on to, but nobody was making the run so he kept the ball a second longer and was then robbed. I'd rather he kept looking for that killer ball but he needs help - the formation, and Forest, didn't allow it yesterday.
Pick up another couple of wins quickly and then it might be time for Chrissy to experiment a bit and find that magic formula at the Valley. 4-5-1 certainly isn't the way to go at home although I'm pretty convinced it is the best way for us away.
It was so bad even at 20 mins into the game the home fans were cheering when we strung 3 passes together. If i was Powell i would make them sit and watch the whole 90 mins on video all day monday and tuesday and tell them any more of that and your out...who replaces them...i dont care cos they wont be as bad.
Not much you can take from the game - other than 4-5-1 is probably not the best way to go at home and we need better discipline. No need for overreactions.
I would like to ask the BBC sports statistisics the last time any home team had 3 shots in the 90 mins and had 1 shot on target.
Think those of us who were there yesterday could be forgiven for forgetting that this is NOT a level playing field ( in more ways than one !) A freezing day with little to warm us up from the pitch does make the most ardent supporter feel a bit sorry for himself. At least I had the memories of the Leics win to reassure me that we can hold our own , albeit away from home. I just feel for those who aren't able to travel on a regular basis and can understand their frustration.
But as you rightly state, we should put it all into perspective.
Mind you, 3 points next Saturday would cheer up the most depressed Addick, I'm sure !
I think most of us on here recognise that CP has done a brilliant job since he took over from Parky - he assembled a title winning squad out of almost nothing and this season he wasn't allowed allowed to spend anything apart from on Wilson.
HOWEVER
anyone watching from the stands yesterday will have to conceed that they witnessed one of the most inept, shocking & abysmal performances that a CAFC team has ever given. Forget about the sending off as that may have actually had a galvanisng effect (it did amongst the fans) and it certainly shielded CP from a huge corrus of boos at half-time, which were then directed at the ref & not the team. For the first 20 mins we hardly touched the ball as Forest passed around us and ripped us open many times - when we did get a touch we then gave it away - Stephens being the biggist culprit. I don't think I've ever seen an opening half where we we were so outplayed & outclassed...............yes , Forest have some decent players but even when we were in the Premiership for the first time in 98/99 playing Man U & Arsenal we were never that bad. It is totally un-excusable for any footballer of any standard not being able to pass 10 yards to his team mate or to be able to tackle & win the ball back. To my mind CP should shoulder most of the blame for picking the wrong team & the wrong formation, but once on the pitch if a player can't run 20 yards with the ball at his feet and pass to a fellow player then there isn't a lot CP can do.
btw - I WAS at Leicester, so I have seen both good & bad performances by the same players.
Speaking for myself I've missed 3 home games this season. Leicester (work), Hull (visiting family) and Peterborough (ill). In other words two of our four home wins and one of our better draws.
I said at the start of the season I'd take 21st right now and was belittled for it by the Charlton Life Great and Good.
SCP has worked wonders in this division with the resources at his disposal but there are some on here and in the ground who want him out regardless of what he does sadly.