A message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence.This is the dictionary definition of speculation.So it can't be well informed speculation,if it is incomplete it is not well informed.
A message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence.This is the dictionary definition of speculation.So it can't be well informed speculation,if it is incomplete it is not well informed.
But surely if you base that information on evidence that is accurate, albeit incomplete, this could be well informed but not fully informed could it not?
Rick Everitt was instrumental in gaining media momentum to get us back to The Valley.
Rick Everitt was instrumental in devising and implementing (with others before the pedants jump on me) initiatives to keep our attendances up following our relegations.
I haven't read all of this thread so apologies for any duplication, but some things seem obvious without speculation or having inside knowledge.
Firstly, as a business football is about turnover not profit. The question is who grabs a slice of the money between it coming in the front door and going out the back. People who love the club (Varney, Everett) will want to keep as big a slice as possible for the long-term benefit of the club. People who are in it for business reasons will want to take as big a piece for themselves as possible. That is not in itself unreasonable but it is a potential source of conflict with the former group.
There is sometimes confusion on here between 'mystery owners' and 'mystery investors'. There is no mystery about who owns the club as far as I can see. The investor(s) are, by definition, in it for a return, and given the high risk nature of football will presumably want that return to be substantial. They probably won't want to wait very long for it either.
One way to significantly increase cash flow in a relatively short timescale at a club like ours is through the development and sale of players, something I understand Tony Jimenez thinks he is good at. It has been suggested elsewhere on CL that this is the current business plan, and although we don't know for sure that it's the case, I think it is consistent with everything that has happened at the club both for good and for bad over the last year or so.
Finally, I totally respect anyone who puts in the time and effort to set up and run a Supporter's Trust but how can it meaningfully hold an investor to account? And if it can't, what can it do?
Finally, I totally respect anyone who puts in the time and effort to set up and run a Supporter's Trust but how can it meaningfully hold an investor to account? And if it can't, what can it do?
A lot of things to ponder and agree with in your thoughtful post. To your final question, it's something I've been struggling to answer myself, and the Trust's key players too. Here is where I am on it currently, but it's just my personal opinion and open to modification.
I don't see how a block of fans can influence the business of the club unless they hold an equity stake. So I personally think that has to be the stated long term strategy of a Trust. But you don't raise such money overnight, so the formation and existence of a Trust is a vehicle by which you gather together those fans who are prepared to at some point put their money where their mouths are. The difference between a Supporter's Club or Fans Forum and a Trust then becomes the make-up of the respective membership. Supporters Clubs tend to make complaints and demands from a fan's standpoint, but without any regard for whether their demands are financially feasible. A Trust, with a stated aim of putting in equity is saying "This is what we want from and for our club, but we understand that money doesn't grow on trees. Please lets have a grown-up discussion about the club's direction, and at some point in the near future we will help to shoulder the financial burden of that direction"
I don't know whether that answers you satisfactorily. I do know that Barnie and the gang would love to have that dialogue with you in person, the Trust needs exactly the kind of people like you who ask and think about these questions.
The problem is though PA, CAFC is not a company floated on the stock exchange. So while everything has a price, you don't even know how much you might need to encourage the current owners to make shares available.
That may or may not mean we can do anything but I think a Trust can be a long term thing, we shouldn't expect results overnight, I've been saying this from the start, the Trust is for the long haul.
Buying a seat in the boardroom would be fraught with difficulty, aside from no doubt having to inject a very sizeable sum. You might be shocked at how minority shareholders can be sidelined in private companies. Not saying that would happen but you could do little to prevent it. IMHO, in order for the Trust to become an effective pressure group, quite simply, it needs to get a membership in a reasonable period of time of 1,000+. I would suggest deploying what funds are available to that aim, perhaps starting a campaign with a name of, oh to pluck an idea out of thin air, "Target 1,000"...... ;o) Count me in for one.
The trust indeed is committed to the long term preservation of the club, for the future generations of supporters DRF. And having a good relationship beetween a supportive, and constructive trust can be only of benefit towards establishing a stronger business model, if the current board wish to sell there investment. Who knows for certain if the current directors have a five year, ten year or longer term investment in the club. That is part of the problem, as well as the dynamic of the present business model, is it Messrs Slaters money, is it Jimenez's money, or are they stewards for some one else?. Who is to say that the trust members may themselves not be able to attract an investor/s , and manage there investment with some personal equity?. I think that having a sound business model will only increase the possibility of a good business model where the customers are both supportive of the long term aims, and aspirations.
In any case to establish a trust now, and not in a time of crisis like Pompey has had to do, means that you can at least consider investment terms not on a 'firesale' basis, looking for any buyer, at any price that you can happen to secure.
I appreciate that time is a rare commodity in football, instant solutions however creative are rarely a success as well. We only need to look at the churn and turn over of managers that we indulged in a few years ago too see that.
I am convinced that a good relationship with the board is essential, and to focus on areas we agree on, not look for conflict and tokenism, and division. The only division I am striving towards is the Premiership, and I hope to secure this with the trust, and a well run, and focused board, who's brand is football, and the fan's are an essential partnership in t achieving that. It will not be easy DRF, but might be a bit easier if fan's join up though, and get involved?
Have a guess who the Crystal Palace Trust introduced to the Administrators with a view to taking over the Club following on from Mark Goldberg's disasterous regime?
Have a guess who the Crystal Palace Trust introduced to the Administrators with a view to taking over the Club following on from Mark Goldberg's disasterous regime?
Have a guess who the Crystal Palace Trust introduced to the Administrators with a view to taking over the Club following on from Mark Goldberg's disasterous regime?
The problem is though PA, CAFC is not a company floated on the stock exchange. So while everything has a price, you don't even know how much you might need to encourage the current owners to make shares available.
I don't think the current owners paid much at all for the 90% shares but they are injecting enough cash every year to cover player investment and losses... question is whether they would let 10-20% go for peanuts in exchange for sharing those losses ... until such time as we can regularly sell players for 3-4M (to cover losses) and / or get promoted
The problem is though PA, CAFC is not a company floated on the stock exchange. So while everything has a price, you don't even know how much you might need to encourage the current owners to make shares available.
I don't think the current owners paid much at all for the 90% shares but they are injecting enough cash every year to cover player investment and losses... question is whether they would let 10-20% go for peanuts in exchange for sharing those losses ... until such time as we can regularly sell players for 3-4M (to cover losses) and / or get promoted
I have heard that they paid one whole pound for the club but took over the debt and agreed on maintaining the debt to the existing directors including the payment of interest if Charlton got into the championship. They also agreed that payment of the whole directors debt plus interest would take place if they reached the premiership. I know not if this true or not
Yes that has been stated several times in different places... incidentally, the debts are the debts and as long as CAFC pays HMRC on time and the shareholders cover annual losses then the club is OK... the big debate is where is the club going on and off the pitch as there is simply no guarantee as to when promotion might happen
Comments
lol!
Rick Everitt was instrumental in gaining media momentum to get us back to The Valley.
Rick Everitt was instrumental in devising and implementing (with others before the pedants jump on me) initiatives to keep our attendances up following our relegations.
All speculation though.
Firstly, as a business football is about turnover not profit. The question is who grabs a slice of the money between it coming in the front door and going out the back. People who love the club (Varney, Everett) will want to keep as big a slice as possible for the long-term benefit of the club. People who are in it for business reasons will want to take as big a piece for themselves as possible. That is not in itself unreasonable but it is a potential source of conflict with the former group.
There is sometimes confusion on here between 'mystery owners' and 'mystery investors'. There is no mystery about who owns the club as far as I can see. The investor(s) are, by definition, in it for a return, and given the high risk nature of football will presumably want that return to be substantial. They probably won't want to wait very long for it either.
One way to significantly increase cash flow in a relatively short timescale at a club like ours is through the development and sale of players, something I understand Tony Jimenez thinks he is good at. It has been suggested elsewhere on CL that this is the current business plan, and although we don't know for sure that it's the case, I think it is consistent with everything that has happened at the club both for good and for bad over the last year or so.
Finally, I totally respect anyone who puts in the time and effort to set up and run a Supporter's Trust but how can it meaningfully hold an investor to account? And if it can't, what can it do?
I don't see how a block of fans can influence the business of the club unless they hold an equity stake. So I personally think that has to be the stated long term strategy of a Trust. But you don't raise such money overnight, so the formation and existence of a Trust is a vehicle by which you gather together those fans who are prepared to at some point put their money where their mouths are. The difference between a Supporter's Club or Fans Forum and a Trust then becomes the make-up of the respective membership. Supporters Clubs tend to make complaints and demands from a fan's standpoint, but without any regard for whether their demands are financially feasible. A Trust, with a stated aim of putting in equity is saying "This is what we want from and for our club, but we understand that money doesn't grow on trees. Please lets have a grown-up discussion about the club's direction, and at some point in the near future we will help to shoulder the financial burden of that direction"
I don't know whether that answers you satisfactorily. I do know that Barnie and the gang would love to have that dialogue with you in person, the Trust needs exactly the kind of people like you who ask and think about these questions.
That may or may not mean we can do anything but I think a Trust can be a long term thing, we shouldn't expect results overnight, I've been saying this from the start, the Trust is for the long haul.
IMHO, in order for the Trust to become an effective pressure group, quite simply, it needs to get a membership in a reasonable period of time of 1,000+.
I would suggest deploying what funds are available to that aim, perhaps starting a campaign with a name of, oh to pluck an idea out of thin air, "Target 1,000"...... ;o)
Count me in for one.
And having a good relationship beetween a supportive, and constructive trust can be only of benefit towards establishing a stronger business model, if the current board wish to sell there investment. Who knows for certain if the current directors have a five year, ten year or longer term investment in the club. That is part of the problem, as well as the dynamic of the present business model, is it Messrs Slaters money, is it Jimenez's money, or are they stewards for some one else?. Who is to say that the trust members may themselves not be able to attract an investor/s , and manage there investment with some personal equity?. I think that having a sound business model will only increase the possibility of a good business model where the customers are both supportive of the long term aims, and aspirations.
In any case to establish a trust now, and not in a time of crisis like Pompey has had to do, means that you can at least consider investment terms not on a 'firesale' basis, looking for any buyer, at any price that you can happen to secure.
I appreciate that time is a rare commodity in football, instant solutions however creative are rarely a success as well.
We only need to look at the churn and turn over of managers that we indulged in a few years ago too see that.
I am convinced that a good relationship with the board is essential, and to focus on areas we agree on, not look for conflict and tokenism, and division. The only division I am striving towards is the Premiership, and I hope to secure this with the trust, and a well run, and focused board, who's brand is football, and the fan's are an essential partnership in t achieving that. It will not be easy DRF, but might be a bit easier if fan's join up though, and get involved?
oohaah is nearest.
Our Price?