So to summarise with apologies in advance to the three persons named
Theory 1 or the NorthstandSteve "Comfort Blanket" Theory.
There is no problem. A few staff members are creating a storm in a teacup because the old managers they prefer working for have gone and they now have no protection/comfort blanket from the hard nose business men who have come in and made and are making changes. All is OK, we went up so button it.
Theory 2 or the Brunello "it's not personal, it's business" theory
There may be or have been cash flow issues over the summer but that is common to many businesses of all kind. Changes in ownership and management were expected and planned for. They have done well so far so let the new people get on with it, it's business.
Theory 3 or the Seth Plum "Armeggedon Time" Theory.
It's bad, very bad. The motives of the new board as suspect and without Cash's cash or Varney guidance we are up s*** creek without a paddle. Bills remain unpaid and tensions in the camp are only likely to increase. Varney and Kavanagh left on points of principal, unhappy with how Slater and Jimenez do business
You pay your money and you takes your pick.
LLL&BH
Excellent summary, Henry. I am not in Theory 3 camp, but veer between 2 and 3 according to the nature of each new piece of information which comes to light. And I think I'd only ever be unequivocably in 1 if there was a supporter in the boardroom representing a decent chunk of equity.
Brilliant post, Suzi. Another fact people seem to be forgetting is that before the new people came in, the previous board had run the club dreadfully since 2005.
I'm sure you don't mean to imply this but one could infer that performance on the pitch is all that matters to Charlton fans in terms of trust in the board. Of course it's a major factor but CAFC fans are certainly more astute than that. Accepting that the "old board" made a series of disastrous decisions after Curbs' departure (nonetheless made in good faith in what it thought were the best interests of the Club), the dialogue with the fans was qualitatively in a different league to the present, even after 2005 and after de-listing of the PLC. That tradition of dialogue (and of course not of total but of substantial transparency) went back more than a decade and IMHO was one of the key factors in CAFC punching well above its weight on the pitch for so many years. I am all in favour of giving time and the benefit of the doubt to new owners but the departure in short order of PV, SK and RE (while not necessarily meaning that the Club is about to careen off the road into a ditch) removes one of the remaining sources of comfort that many supporters had that the Club is being run with their interests and concerns in mind. Sadly, failing to recognise that suggests either a lack of gumption or of concern or both.
"Also, whilst we're talking about it, I personally, don't feel that certain people are adding anything to this particular debate as everytime a different poster offers their own opinion, or questions something, the same person responds in a lengthy condescending manor quoting history in a higher standard of vocabulary that I (and perhaps some others) could only dream of, which has what has discouraged me from adding my opinion before. "
That'll be me, then. Dropping you a (civil) private message.
This thread has now gone the way of an earlier thread or am I just getting a feeling of deja vu?
Some people will look on the positive side - no fire sale of players, nothing untoward coming out of the official club spokesmen.
Others have clearly heard things directly or indirectly from people on the inside and then coupled with three pillars of the old regime/club either gone or claimed to have gone, added to that the fact that the new signings (even Fuller) were somewhat out of left field and underwhelming have taken a more pessimistic view.
Lets be clear here. None of us wants anything but success and longevity for our club. Where we differ is in the way we look at the rumours that are out there and the trust we may have in those who have told us what the believe is happening.
I respect Suzi and her call for balance especially as, with the exception of what we know - PV and SK gone and a change of shareholding, everything else is rumour, informed or otherwise.
I am generally in the optimistic camp but I am worried now because
a) there is a culture of secrecy now around the club - why is this? b) there is no one that I have observed in a senior capacity who has a greater love for this club than PV. He brokered the deal that brought TJ and MS (and whoever backs them) to the club - he has gone early and with nothing to say. c) SK went first from the board then completely. It seemed an odd way to go. d) AB now appears to be gone/going e) Rumours of players lined up and then not signed has got louder and more believeable as time has gone on f) Those who have been talking about issues behind the scenes are generally people in whom I have considerable trust.
I accept that it could be just a case of a new broom and all part of sweeping away the old and included in the master plan. It could be a bit of choppy water and there are calmer waters ahead. I have to say that it just doesn't feel that way to me.
Brilliant post, Suzi. Another fact people seem to be forgetting is that before the new people came in, the previous board had run the club dreadfully since 2005.
I'm sure you don't mean to imply this but one could infer that performance on the pitch is all that matters to Charlton fans in terms of trust in the board. Of course it's a major factor but CAFC fans are certainly more astute than that. Accepting that the "old board" made a series of disastrous decisions after Curbs' departure (nonetheless made in good faith in what it thought were the best interests of the Club), the dialogue with the fans was qualitatively in a different league to the present, even after 2005 and after de-listing of the PLC. That tradition of dialogue (and of course not of total but of substantial transparency) went back more than a decade and IMHO was one of the key factors in CAFC punching well above its weight on the pitch for so many years. I am all in favour of giving time and the benefit of the doubt to new owners but the departure in short order of PV, SK and RE (while not necessarily meaning that the Club is about to careen off the road into a ditch) removes one of the remaining sources of comfort that many supporters had that the Club is being run with their interests and concerns in mind. Sadly, failing to recognise that suggests either a lack of gumption or of concern or both.
Good post Peanuts.
I agree with Suzi that the thread was in danger of beatifying Rick. It is way over the top to suggest that no one else could do what he did or better and I say that without in anyway belittling the very good work he did. And yes, I did see at least some of it up close and in detail.
The question remains that if Rick is leaving is he being replaced and by whom? If not, who, if any one, is taking on that role and if no one why not?
The same can be asked about Steve Kavanagh and his role.
If there was a "planned" re-structure then the answers must already exist and could easily be given out to fans without any breach of commercial confidentiality.
If on the other hand there is no plan and the changes are a reaction to major funders pulling out and senior managers being unhappy with what they see as inappropriate actions then we have a problem.
Bing, good post, but to balance your point e) should you not acknowledge the deafening rumours that we were going to lose three of our best players near the end of the window, to Premiership clubs, came to nothing, which may represent a significant opportunity cost-investment by the club. Felt like an issue that was seen as a significant threat and a done deal, just fizzled away without much further comment. I was away at the time so I may have missed it.
This thread has now gone the way of an earlier thread or am I just getting a feeling of deja vu?
Some people will look on the positive side - no fire sale of players, nothing untoward coming out of the official club spokesmen.
Others have clearly heard things directly or indirectly from people on the inside and then coupled with three pillars of the old regime/club either gone or claimed to have gone, added to that the fact that the new signings (even Fuller) were somewhat out of left field and underwhelming have taken a more pessimistic view.
Lets be clear here. None of us wants anything but success and longevity for our club. Where we differ is in the way we look at the rumours that are out there and the trust we may have in those who have told us what the believe is happening.
I respect Suzi and her call for balance especially as, with the exception of what we know - PV and SK gone and a change of shareholding, everything else is rumour, informed or otherwise.
I am generally in the optimistic camp but I am worried now because
a) there is a culture of secrecy now around the club - why is this? b) there is no one that I have observed in a senior capacity who has a greater love for this club than PV. He brokered the deal that brought TJ and MS (and whoever backs them) to the club - he has gone early and with nothing to say. c) SK went first from the board then completely. It seemed an odd way to go. d) AB now appears to be gone/going e) Rumours of players lined up and then not signed has got louder and more believeable as time has gone on f) Those who have been talking about issues behind the scenes are generally people in whom I have considerable trust.
I accept that it could be just a case of a new broom and all part of sweeping away the old and included in the master plan. It could be a bit of choppy water and there are calmer waters ahead. I have to say that it just doesn't feel that way to me.
The problem is that when an organisation changes the people further down the food chain must understand that change and that means it must be communicated to them. Has that change been communicated to us in any meaningful way? Or do we take improved performances on the pitch and simply shut up?
What concerns me most is your point a - the cult of secrecy at the club - who owns it, who is funding it and why they don't want their involvement made public.
We won't get Pete Varney (or SK and I doubt RE) commenting because they no doubt will have had it written into their severance terms that under no circumstances will they discus the whys and wherefores of their departure. We also had a director who was appointed to the board in the spring and then he departed three months or so later - what was he doing on the board? Given that his arrival and departure seem to tie in date wise with the cash flow problem rumours you can only conclude that there is some truth to some of the more troubling stories.
That leaves us as the fans who are getting the mushroom treatment and I get the feeling that we are expected to shrug and like this new state of affairs, my fear is that ultimately we will get treated less as fans and more as customers. What next? ST rises at above inflation prices? A dearth of senior names from the club attending SC meetings? Players getting sold without CP's approval/knowledge? What I dislike most in this is that the connection between fans and board is becoming as distant as it was in the Gliksten era and we all know how that turned out. In my experience companies that keep in close contact with their customers, or fans in our case, tend to be more successful.
One reason why there is a culture of secrecy has possibly got to do with the fact that the football company is owned off-shore. It is best to keep under the radar when you spend so much time and effort avoiding paying tax in this country. For instance one of the suspected (former?) share-holders does not even own a house as his residence in the UK is owned by an off-shore company apparently.
The governments recent anouncement regarding their intention to close these legal tax-avoiding loopholes may also be part of the reason of the apparent upheaval. We can only speculate on why the three Charlton people have all gone but you will not hear the reasons why as I am sure that MS has tied them up in a non-disclosure contract as I am also sure any explanation would have to include a cat or two being let out of the real ownership bag!
We also had a director who was appointed to the board in the spring and then he departed three months or so later - what was he doing on the board? Given that his arrival and departure seem to tie in date wise with the cash flow problem rumours you can only conclude that there is some truth to some of the more troubling stories.
He joined the board on the presumption of securing us a very good shirt sponsorship deal, which didn't materialise. Therefore, as it was his sole/main duty he left.
All across the globe, it is amazing how many upper managements fail to appreciate those that absolutely love their jobs, and are generally great at them because they go above and beyond the call of duty as it is their passion. Bad management look at these employees as if their love of their work is a weakness, something that can be manipulated or even discarded. And then they wonder why their replacements are so inferior.
Does Charlton management even realise what they have had in Rick? And how difficult he would be to replace?
By the time they figure it out, if they figure it out, it will most likely be too late and the damage done.
The 'old' CAFC consisted of several hundred shareholders who each year got a 'statment of accounts' and shiny company brochure telling us in the world was rosy - despite the accountants on here able to tell you that in fact the Club was leaking money like a seive. Along with a lot of ties some of us had with existing staff, not a lot of what happened at the Club was hidden.
The 'new' CAFC is a privately owned company with probably less than 12 shareholders who have to tell you diddly squat.
And that is exactly what they're doing.
It's their's to do as they wish and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that unless you have a spare £50m down the back of the sofa and can join in their game.
Now the ties with existing staff are disappearing and the flow of information is not forthcoming - that's resulted in a lot of concerns, possibly quite rightly. As Suzi said it's the fear of change.
If you were an outsider looking at the Club since the takeover, then you'd be mystified why so many people have huge concerns - after all everything so far has been delivered as promised.
Bing said: I am generally in the optimistic camp but I am worried now because
a) there is a culture of secrecy now around the club - why is this?
Why do you think?
Harry Gregory has it on the right lines.
Yes of course I'm sure that HG speaks the truth - after all we did go to the same school you know....:-)
Secrecy is always about something you don't want people to know about. If you check one of my earlier posts you will see what I think about the affect that secrecy has on a football club, especially when things don't go well.
Comments
That tradition of dialogue (and of course not of total but of substantial transparency) went back more than a decade and IMHO was one of the key factors in CAFC punching well above its weight on the pitch for so many years.
I am all in favour of giving time and the benefit of the doubt to new owners but the departure in short order of PV, SK and RE (while not necessarily meaning that the Club is about to careen off the road into a ditch) removes one of the remaining sources of comfort that many supporters had that the Club is being run with their interests and concerns in mind. Sadly, failing to recognise that suggests either a lack of gumption or of concern or both.
A cargo cult waiting for something to arrive. They have built an imitation aeroplane to encourage manna from above.
"Also, whilst we're talking about it, I personally, don't feel that certain people are adding anything to this particular debate as everytime a different poster offers their own opinion, or questions something, the same person responds in a lengthy condescending manor quoting history in a higher standard of vocabulary that I (and perhaps some others) could only dream of, which has what has discouraged me from adding my opinion before. "
That'll be me, then. Dropping you a (civil) private message.
Some people will look on the positive side - no fire sale of players, nothing untoward coming out of the official club spokesmen.
Others have clearly heard things directly or indirectly from people on the inside and then coupled with three pillars of the old regime/club either gone or claimed to have gone, added to that the fact that the new signings (even Fuller) were somewhat out of left field and underwhelming have taken a more pessimistic view.
Lets be clear here. None of us wants anything but success and longevity for our club. Where we differ is in the way we look at the rumours that are out there and the trust we may have in those who have told us what the believe is happening.
I respect Suzi and her call for balance especially as, with the exception of what we know - PV and SK gone and a change of shareholding, everything else is rumour, informed or otherwise.
I am generally in the optimistic camp but I am worried now because
a) there is a culture of secrecy now around the club - why is this?
b) there is no one that I have observed in a senior capacity who has a greater love for this club than PV. He brokered the deal that brought TJ and MS (and whoever backs them) to the club - he has gone early and with nothing to say.
c) SK went first from the board then completely. It seemed an odd way to go.
d) AB now appears to be gone/going
e) Rumours of players lined up and then not signed has got louder and more believeable as time has gone on
f) Those who have been talking about issues behind the scenes are generally people in whom I have considerable trust.
I accept that it could be just a case of a new broom and all part of sweeping away the old and included in the master plan. It could be a bit of choppy water and there are calmer waters ahead. I have to say that it just doesn't feel that way to me.
I agree with Suzi that the thread was in danger of beatifying Rick. It is way over the top to suggest that no one else could do what he did or better and I say that without in anyway belittling the very good work he did. And yes, I did see at least some of it up close and in detail.
The question remains that if Rick is leaving is he being replaced and by whom? If not, who, if any one, is taking on that role and if no one why not?
The same can be asked about Steve Kavanagh and his role.
If there was a "planned" re-structure then the answers must already exist and could easily be given out to fans without any breach of commercial confidentiality.
If on the other hand there is no plan and the changes are a reaction to major funders pulling out and senior managers being unhappy with what they see as inappropriate actions then we have a problem.
The problem is that when an organisation changes the people further down the food chain must understand that change and that means it must be communicated to them. Has that change been communicated to us in any meaningful way? Or do we take improved performances on the pitch and simply shut up?
What concerns me most is your point a - the cult of secrecy at the club - who owns it, who is funding it and why they don't want their involvement made public.
We won't get Pete Varney (or SK and I doubt RE) commenting because they no doubt will have had it written into their severance terms that under no circumstances will they discus the whys and wherefores of their departure. We also had a director who was appointed to the board in the spring and then he departed three months or so later - what was he doing on the board? Given that his arrival and departure seem to tie in date wise with the cash flow problem rumours you can only conclude that there is some truth to some of the more troubling stories.
That leaves us as the fans who are getting the mushroom treatment and I get the feeling that we are expected to shrug and like this new state of affairs, my fear is that ultimately we will get treated less as fans and more as customers. What next? ST rises at above inflation prices? A dearth of senior names from the club attending SC meetings? Players getting sold without CP's approval/knowledge? What I dislike most in this is that the connection between fans and board is becoming as distant as it was in the Gliksten era and we all know how that turned out. In my experience companies that keep in close contact with their customers, or fans in our case, tend to be more successful.
The governments recent anouncement regarding their intention to close these legal tax-avoiding loopholes may also be part of the reason of the apparent upheaval. We can only speculate on why the three Charlton people have all gone but you will not hear the reasons why as I am sure that MS has tied them up in a non-disclosure contract as I am also sure any explanation would have to include a cat or two being let out of the real ownership bag!
Bad management look at these employees as if their love of their work is a weakness, something that can be manipulated or even discarded. And then they wonder why their replacements are so inferior.
Does Charlton management even realise what they have had in Rick? And how difficult he would be to replace?
By the time they figure it out, if they figure it out, it will most likely be too late and the damage done.
a) there is a culture of secrecy now around the club - why is this?
Why do you think?
Harry Gregory has it on the right lines.
The 'new' CAFC is a privately owned company with probably less than 12 shareholders who have to tell you diddly squat.
And that is exactly what they're doing.
It's their's to do as they wish and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that unless you have a spare £50m down the back of the sofa and can join in their game.
Now the ties with existing staff are disappearing and the flow of information is not forthcoming - that's resulted in a lot of concerns, possibly quite rightly. As Suzi said it's the fear of change.
If you were an outsider looking at the Club since the takeover, then you'd be mystified why so many people have huge concerns - after all everything so far has been delivered as promised.
Secrecy is always about something you don't want people to know about. If you check one of my earlier posts you will see what I think about the affect that secrecy has on a football club, especially when things don't go well.
:-)