I am not sure if you were at the Valley last Monday but those that were saw the problem our stewards had moving a couple of blocks of fans due to the power problems.
Getting 7,000 fans to sit down would take an immense amount of labour plus with all the stewards in the crowd enforcing such a move would only hinder the veiw even more.
Lets suppose Fulham were punished, why should they have to play games behind closed doors because away fans would not sit down.
Going back to the Valley we all saw what happened when Millwall came to us last year, you could not see a stairway or concourse in the Jimmy Seed stand from where I was sitting let alone fans sitting down.
I would have been very disapointed to have had to play a game or two behind closed doors as punishment for that.
So would I but it would focus the clubs into sorting out the problem. Maybe we'd need to ban away fans when we play Millwall, or maybe we'd need to reduce the capacity and/or have many more stewards in the stand. I'm not suggesting that this is the only solution, merely that if there is a will there is a way.
Alternatively we openly admit that we cannot control those that stand, and advise fans not to attend if they are unable to stand for the whole game - which, I would suggest, is where we are currently are anyway. I just think it's unfair to take fans money for seats and then tell them they can't sit down and expect to watch the match as well.
I can see both sides of this debate and clearly it needed to be had as there are so many lifers on either side regarding this.
I am a little uncomfortable with playing the Hillsborough card here though, its quite irrelevent to what is being discussed here and I feel, a little distastfull to use so out of context, no-one here is endorsing overcrowded terracing from a bygone age whilst fenced in and I am sure most would visit the memorial where so many people people tragically lost thier lives out of respect not for some sort of reality check to the seating/standing debate.
In the end its about a bit of respect for each other, we are not Leeds or Man Utd. No law was passed last Saturday that from this day forth no one shall sit, it was a spontanious event and unlikely to happen for a while again.
I also have a forces pension for a knee injury that did make it a little uncomfortable so can identify with some of issues on here but I sat for 5 minutes from time to time then stood again
Great post!
In the last 10 years or so I can only think of these games where the whole away support has stood:
Palace (not the year we took 8k) Boro (in the Cup) and after sitting down for hours on the way up there I think everyone needed to stand. I like the way no one feels for people who are in pain when sitting (as it does happen believe me) btw.
Even at Millwall loads were sat in the upper. And at Blackburn the top tier was all Sat.
What is funny is how big an issue this has been and that is purely because it never happens with Charlton! Thank god some of you don't support clubs who stand away every week. They have kids, elderly etc following them but it happens.
People should not drive over 70mph on the motorway, but it happens.
If this was happening every week, then kick up a fuss, but it doesn't.
SE10 I can assure you I am very much for real. Rather than reducing the discussion to an exchange of a fatuous insult please explain on what basis you regards the comment as ignorant.
Please explain why you feel people are entitled to pursue their personal preference for watching a game to the detriment of others who have just as much right to enjoy the game to the detriment of no one. What makes them so special?
The Hillsborough disaster is entirely relevant because all seater stadia were introduced as a direct result of the disaster precisely to enable authorities to control crowds. How many people do you think were actually involved in the build up to the Hillsborough incident?
I grew up watching Charlton standing on the Valley Terraces and in the Covered End. I understand the buzz and the excitement that can be generated but over the years elements within football crowds long since lost everybody the right to enjoy such freedoms.
Have you ever been in a large crowd that has lost control? Have you looked at the faces of women and children caught up even momentarily in such situations?
I can assure you for most reasonable people the pursuit of some gratutious buzz pales into insignificance. If you want to try understand the serious point being made I urge you to just look up Wikipedia or the Liverpool memorial site. Just look at the ages of those that lost their lives.
By all means add some smart comment but such retort will say significantly more about you than any comment I can make.
Can I just put on record, that if you use Hillsborough as a reason not to bring back safe standing, you either don't understand what actually happened in 1989, or haven't read the Taylor report, where Taylor says terracing 'is not intrinsically unsafe'.
I take it you were not inconvenienced after paying money for a ticket like Lancashire Lad and some others. I haven't got a problem with standing, I used to do it as my first choice when the option was open to me but I was brought up to be considerate about others. Incredible that some people advocate people who have difficulty standing not attending big away matches rather than people being more considerate - says it all really!
Grapevine - but your references to hillsborough were made in relation to standing in seated areas (ie what fans did on Saturday). Your bad experiences of terraces are relevant to terraces, not standing out of your seat.
adjective 1. belonging to a thing by its very nature: the intrinsic value of a gold ring. 2. Anatomy. (of certain muscles, nerves, etc.) belonging to or lying within a given part.
There are solutions, even in today's selfish me focussed world. At the Valley, If you want to stand you get a ticket for the Upper North - left hand side. Nobody there can complain about standing as that is what you know you will have to do. I actually had a ticket up there for a few seasons and quite enjoyed standing (which you had to do as there were always more people up there than seats) but I go with my family now so not an option. Also, teh level of ignorance of football is quite high there which I found irritating - I know that makes me sound like a football snob - Anyway If it is accepted that we have people who are not going to be considerate to other fans we can do more to ensure they buy seats together - so for example all season ticket holders applying for Fulham who have seats in the area in question in North Upper could be given a pre-determined seating area by the club. That would ensure they are together to create the necessary atmosphere but also help to make the match day experience better for those who don't want to be sat behind them.
There are solutions, even in today's selfish me focussed world. At the Valley, If you want to stand you get a ticket for the Upper North - left hand side. Nobody there can complain about standing as that is what you know you will have to do. I actually had a ticket up there for a few seasons and quite enjoyed standing (which you had to do as there were always more people up there than seats) but I go with my family now so not an option. Also, teh level of ignorance of football is quite high there which I found irritating - I know that makes me sound like a football snob - Anyway If it is accepted that we have people who are not going to be considerate to other fans we can do more to ensure they buy seats together - so for example all season ticket holders applying for Fulham who have seats in the area in question in North Upper could be given a pre-determined seating area by the club. That would ensure they are together to create the necessary atmosphere but also help to make the match day experience better for those who don't want to be sat behind them.
I really must step away from this as I will soon get labelled by someone as a moaner. However, the club do not advertise the Upper North left hand side as a standing area so it is possible that someone would choose to sit there, buy their ticket and then find that they are unable to sit and watch the game. Sure they could move, and it may well be that that entire section is season ticket holders that know the score, but it is similar to the suggestion that we should have all known that we would have to stand for the whole game at Fulham when, from the simple numbers alone, there must have been a lot of fans there that don't normally go to away games.
I would imagine that as soon as a club sold tickets in what it described as a standing only section of the stadia we would see what the authorities can do to sop it, which is why they will never do so, officially. CharltonLife is great, but I suspect that a very small proportion of all Charlton fans use it as a reference for the ground and the sections of the stands.
They can certainly move at present wit us always having spare seats and I would say most if not all Charlton fans know what to expect if they purchase their seat for up there. Maybe the club could do more to warn new purchasers what to expect but doubt it is an issue but possibly could be in the future. The solution probably moves away from the club taking the approach thet they won't put any measures in place because people shouldn't do it and accept there isn't much that can be done to stop them (sad though that fact is to me) and make contingencies around that. Make sure that the standers occupy the rear of away ends for the big games where usually a better atmospher is generated by that anyway.
About 5 fella a few rows infront of me bought tickets and wanted to sit down but the people in front, ST holder, wouldn't and said that they stand there every week. Nearly kicked off between the 2 parties till they finally decided to move somewhere else.
Thank God Sid was there with his flag to calm matters.
i have sympathy for the non standers ,purely and simply as they have paid for a seat to watch agame of football,stewarding varies from ground to ground,and i think local authorities also have some say as to how stewards actually steward .this is a problem that occurs at away grounds...perhaps a little more research/advice from the ticket office might help for the future...sometimes i think it might be nice to be leaning on a crash barrier on the east terrace but the reality of it is that we are all alot more comfortable at football matches now than we ever were ...i think we should sit all the time unless we are celebrating a goal /near miss ....in relative terms its a small sacrifice to accept after the 70s/80s crowd violence ,heysel and hillsborough...by all means make some part of the home/away areas standing only
I know its not the real answer but surely stewards could have sense to ask fans in first three rows to move further to the back and let those who wish to sit move to the front. I know it throws ticketing into confusion but it would solve the problem.
As someone else said, Do you know how the Hillsborough tragedy happened ?
It was nothing to do with people standing up, It was the fact that too many people were on an enclosed terrace.
There was no more than 7k people standing in a stand that is designed to house 7k. The only problem with standing apart form people not seeing is bruised shins.
Solar - Yes, I was happy I could stand ALTHOUGH I would of happily swapped seats with an elderly person etc if they were in row behind (which they wernt) but why would/should I sit down so I can't see myself when it would make no difference to the person's view behind.
1. If a fan buys a ticket for a seated area and is unable to watch the game because the club does not enforce (safety) regulations then they are entitled to a refund. If a significant number of fans do this then the club might act.
2 Likewise there maybe disability discrimination issues involved.
3. It is easy to identify which fans are standing in any area of the ground. Give one warning if this does not resolve the issue cancel their ticket/seats/membership for a season.
stunning isnt it that we ask/want and get rules and regs all over us in every aspect of what we can say or do yet the one place that has totaly f**ked us all up for decades in the future---- the bankers had naff all rules / regs it was all about de-regulation.
yes by all means come down like a sack of shit on people who make offensive chants and people who (OMG nooooooooooooooo) stand when they should be sitting and lets NAIL those bastards that swear (opps)-------but the people that can REALLY damage YOUR life ----well lets do nothing.
What is sad is the polarisation of opinion that makes people assert their own hedonistic rights against those who, generally, are old or infirm, or who just prefer sitting an have an absolute right to sit on the seat they purchased and have an unfettered view of the game without having to tap people on the shoulder, threaten to take action, &/or call the stewards.
The default position in a seated area is that people should sit and the ground authorities should enforce the rules that they themselves have created, or if that is not possible on the day, make every effort to be alert to people who can't see and help move them to other parts of the ground or if that is not possible, offer them a refund.
Sadly the outcome of the Taylor Report which produced all seater stadia for tiers one and two, was flawed in that it the solution was not merely to stop another Hillsborough disaster; which could have been done by ensuring proper safety planning for each game; controlled ticketing, and safe engineering of crowd safety barriers, but set about trying to deal with more general footballing issues like hooliganism by seeking to move the game away from its working class roots.
I am not sure if you were at the Valley last Monday but those that were saw the problem our stewards had moving a couple of blocks of fans due to the power problems.
Getting 7,000 fans to sit down would take an immense amount of labour plus with all the stewards in the crowd enforcing such a move would only hinder the veiw even more.
Lets suppose Fulham were punished, why should they have to play games behind closed doors because away fans would not sit down.
Going back to the Valley we all saw what happened when Millwall came to us last year, you could not see a stairway or concourse in the Jimmy Seed stand from where I was sitting let alone fans sitting down.
I would have been very disapointed to have had to play a game or two behind closed doors as punishment for that.
So would I but it would focus the clubs into sorting out the problem. Maybe we'd need to ban away fans when we play Millwall, or maybe we'd need to reduce the capacity and/or have many more stewards in the stand. I'm not suggesting that this is the only solution, merely that if there is a will there is a way.
Alternatively we openly admit that we cannot control those that stand, and advise fans not to attend if they are unable to stand for the whole game - which, I would suggest, is where we are currently are anyway. I just think it's unfair to take fans money for seats and then tell them they can't sit down and expect to watch the match as well.
This.
The bold bit sums up where we are admirably from what I've read on the thread.
I was going to leave no further comment but as some seem determined to miss the point I will try and clarify my position for you.
I will leave aside the improvement in general crowd behaviour evident over the past 2 decades and the legal ramifications pertaining to people buying a ticket for a seat, to view a game with the "reasonable expectation of being able to view the game". If you doubt the validity of such expectation then view the scrambling of Dallas and the NFL re their Super Bowl cock up last year.
To those who object to my Hillsborough reference why do you think the top two tiers of English football have All Seater Stadia? Even allowing for a major political/ legislative "brain fart" why after 20yrs has there been no clamour for the return of football terraces. The answer is Hillsborough which I assure you I well understand.
Loss of life did indeed arise from the overcrowding of a specific area of the stadium. Overcrowding on a standard terrace created an unrestricted unstoppable force leading to the crushing of people at the front of the space but such overcrowding AROSE FROM THE LOSS OF CROWD CONTROL.
Authorities had to address the straightforward retention of crowd control at all times, measures to ensure manageable strict control of crowd numbers in any given area within the stadium and stadium infrastructure to limit the impact of overcrowding if it occurred.
All Seater Stadia provide precise control of numbers and specific access to any given area of a stadium. It is THE control. Simply if everyone is seated anyone without seat “stands” out. Any suspicion of overcrowding is easy to identify. Control is simple, effective and easily implemented.
With people standing it becomes virtually impossible to control access numbers especially with people regularly moving between terracing/ seating areas and food concessions, toilets, etc.,
How many stewards do you think you would need to check the tickets of say 1000 people moving between the two areas during the 15 min halftime rush? Even if each check in/ out (with people fumbling for tickets, carrying food, leading children) averaged 10 seconds you would need over 20 stewards. Multiply by 1000/ 2000 people it becomes a logistical & cost nightmare.
That does not even take into account the social aspects of the intrusive and restrictive nature of such checks. It would be a wholly negative experience.
So with people standing and without the above rigorous (unaffordable?) stewarding you effectively lose control of the crowd. The process is open to abuse with no easily recognisable way of identifying overcrowding.
Some may have brought some mates in from elsewhere in the ground others may congregate in a more advantageous position for a better view. All in any area specifically designed for a set number of people.
I happen to agree in itself the act of standing on a terrace (or for that matter in a seated area) is not inherently dangerous but the lack of crowd control it introduces and the potential for abuse of the system is an accident waiting to happen.
I acknowledge where there are 2000 seats in a given area with 500 people "in the house" there is a natural inclination to turn a “blind eye” to standing in seated areas but that just creates precedent and expectation which with larger crowds cannot be safely met.
For me standing in an all seated stadium is a zero tolerance option. Ultimately it is divisive and unsafe. Sorry if that pisses on peoples parade but with the infrastructure investment made and the ever increasing operational costs associated with increased stewarding I do not see the situation changing.
For the benefit of harmony maybe sometimes it would be best if people simply followed the rules.
Comments
Alternatively we openly admit that we cannot control those that stand, and advise fans not to attend if they are unable to stand for the whole game - which, I would suggest, is where we are currently are anyway. I just think it's unfair to take fans money for seats and then tell them they can't sit down and expect to watch the match as well.
In the last 10 years or so I can only think of these games where the whole away support has stood:
Palace (not the year we took 8k)
Boro (in the Cup) and after sitting down for hours on the way up there I think everyone needed to stand. I like the way no one feels for people who are in pain when sitting (as it does happen believe me) btw.
Even at Millwall loads were sat in the upper. And at Blackburn the top tier was all Sat.
What is funny is how big an issue this has been and that is purely because it never happens with Charlton! Thank god some of you don't support clubs who stand away every week. They have kids, elderly etc following them but it happens.
People should not drive over 70mph on the motorway, but it happens.
If this was happening every week, then kick up a fuss, but it doesn't.
Please explain why you feel people are entitled to pursue their personal preference for watching a game to the detriment of others who have just as much right to enjoy the game to the detriment of no one. What makes them so special?
The Hillsborough disaster is entirely relevant because all seater stadia were introduced as a direct result of the disaster precisely to enable authorities to control crowds. How many people do you think were actually involved in the build up to the Hillsborough incident?
I grew up watching Charlton standing on the Valley Terraces and in the Covered End. I understand the buzz and the excitement that can be generated but over the years elements within football crowds long since lost everybody the right to enjoy such freedoms.
Have you ever been in a large crowd that has lost control? Have you looked at the faces of women and children caught up even momentarily in such situations?
I can assure you for most reasonable people the pursuit of some gratutious buzz pales into insignificance. If you want to try understand the serious point being made I urge you to just look up Wikipedia or the Liverpool memorial site. Just look at the ages of those that lost their lives.
By all means add some smart comment but such retort will say significantly more about you than any comment I can make.
Grapevine49
Whats that mean?
1.
belonging to a thing by its very nature: the intrinsic value of a gold ring.
2.
Anatomy. (of certain muscles, nerves, etc.) belonging to or lying within a given part.
I would imagine that as soon as a club sold tickets in what it described as a standing only section of the stadia we would see what the authorities can do to sop it, which is why they will never do so, officially. CharltonLife is great, but I suspect that a very small proportion of all Charlton fans use it as a reference for the ground and the sections of the stands.
About 5 fella a few rows infront of me bought tickets and wanted to sit down but the people in front, ST holder, wouldn't and said that they stand there every week. Nearly kicked off between the 2 parties till they finally decided to move somewhere else.
Thank God Sid was there with his flag to calm matters.
safe standing areas in grounds would be an ideal solution for all but i really cant see that happening over here.
As someone else said, Do you know how the Hillsborough tragedy happened ?
It was nothing to do with people standing up, It was the fact that too many people were on an enclosed terrace.
There was no more than 7k people standing in a stand that is designed to house 7k. The only problem with standing apart form people not seeing is bruised shins.
Solar - Yes, I was happy I could stand ALTHOUGH I would of happily swapped seats with an elderly person etc if they were in row behind (which they wernt) but why would/should I sit down so I can't see myself when it would make no difference to the person's view behind.
club does not enforce (safety) regulations then they are entitled to a refund. If a
significant number of fans do this then the club might act.
2 Likewise there maybe disability discrimination issues involved.
3. It is easy to identify which fans are standing in any area of the ground. Give one
warning if this does not resolve the issue cancel their ticket/seats/membership for
a season.
yes by all means come down like a sack of shit on people who make offensive chants and people who (OMG nooooooooooooooo) stand when they should be sitting and lets NAIL those bastards that swear (opps)-------but the people that can REALLY damage YOUR life ----well lets do nothing.
The default position in a seated area is that people should sit and the ground authorities should enforce the rules that they themselves have created, or if that is not possible on the day, make every effort to be alert to people who can't see and help move them to other parts of the ground or if that is not possible, offer them a refund.
Sadly the outcome of the Taylor Report which produced all seater stadia for tiers one and two, was flawed in that it the solution was not merely to stop another Hillsborough disaster; which could have been done by ensuring proper safety planning for each game; controlled ticketing, and safe engineering of crowd safety barriers, but set about trying to deal with more general footballing issues like hooliganism by seeking to move the game away from its working class roots.
The bold bit sums up where we are admirably from what I've read on the thread.
I was going to leave no further comment but as some seem determined to miss the point I will try and clarify my position for you.
I will leave aside the improvement in general crowd behaviour evident over the past 2 decades and the legal ramifications pertaining to people buying a ticket for a seat, to view a game with the "reasonable expectation of being able to view the game". If you doubt the validity of such expectation then view the scrambling of Dallas and the NFL re their Super Bowl cock up last year.
To those who object to my Hillsborough reference why do you think the top two tiers of English football have All Seater Stadia? Even allowing for a major political/ legislative "brain fart" why after 20yrs has there been no clamour for the return of football terraces. The answer is Hillsborough which I assure you I well understand.
Loss of life did indeed arise from the overcrowding of a specific area of the stadium. Overcrowding on a standard terrace created an unrestricted unstoppable force leading to the crushing of people at the front of the space but such overcrowding AROSE FROM THE LOSS OF CROWD CONTROL.
Authorities had to address the straightforward retention of crowd control at all times, measures to ensure manageable strict control of crowd numbers in any given area within the stadium and stadium infrastructure to limit the impact of overcrowding if it occurred.
All Seater Stadia provide precise control of numbers and specific access to any given area of a stadium. It is THE control. Simply if everyone is seated anyone without seat “stands” out. Any suspicion of overcrowding is easy to identify. Control is simple, effective and easily implemented.
With people standing it becomes virtually impossible to control access numbers especially with people regularly moving between terracing/ seating areas and food concessions, toilets, etc.,
How many stewards do you think you would need to check the tickets of say 1000 people moving between the two areas during the 15 min halftime rush? Even if each check in/ out (with people fumbling for tickets, carrying food, leading children) averaged 10 seconds you would need over 20 stewards. Multiply by 1000/ 2000 people it becomes a logistical & cost nightmare.
That does not even take into account the social aspects of the intrusive and restrictive nature of such checks. It would be a wholly negative experience.
So with people standing and without the above rigorous (unaffordable?) stewarding you effectively lose control of the crowd. The process is open to abuse with no easily recognisable way of identifying overcrowding.
Some may have brought some mates in from elsewhere in the ground others may congregate in a more advantageous position for a better view. All in any area specifically designed for a set number of people.
I happen to agree in itself the act of standing on a terrace (or for that matter in a seated area) is not inherently dangerous but the lack of crowd control it introduces and the potential for abuse of the system is an accident waiting to happen.
I acknowledge where there are 2000 seats in a given area with 500 people "in the house" there is a natural inclination to turn a “blind eye” to standing in seated areas but that just creates precedent and expectation which with larger crowds cannot be safely met.
For me standing in an all seated stadium is a zero tolerance option. Ultimately it is divisive and unsafe. Sorry if that pisses on peoples parade but with the infrastructure investment made and the ever increasing operational costs associated with increased stewarding I do not see the situation changing.
For the benefit of harmony maybe sometimes it would be best if people simply followed the rules.
Grapevine49