"I didn't go because I anticipated the problems and realise that I am not the sort of fan who is "welcome" to attend away matches.
I don't get drunk and abuse those around me who want to watch the match or sing racist songs."
What you seem to be suggesting is that those who attend, or are "welcome to attend" away matches get drunk, abuse people and sing racist songs. Now, your an intelligent chap, that's a bit of a shitty inference, isn't it? THAT'S my problem.
"I didn't go because I anticipated the problems and realise that I am not the sort of fan who is "welcome" to attend away matches.
I don't get drunk and abuse those around me who want to watch the match or sing racist songs."
What you seem to be suggesting is that those who attend, or are "welcome to attend" away matches get drunk, abuse people and sing racist songs. Now, your an intelligent chap, that's a bit of a shitty inference, isn't it? THAT'S my problem.
I do think a vociferous minority of our support thinks that way. The disparaging remarks about people sitting on the thread I linked implies that.
For the umpteenth time the Lisbie thread was deleted I believe but those that posted on it fitted the profile I have described.
I am not suggesting all our fans think that way as well you know but it appears that the the aged and infirm were not allowed to sit today even though legally they were supposed to.
One can only draw the implication from the disparaging remarks that such fans are not welcome by the "proper fans" who attend away matches.
I don't get to many matches, but I was at The Valley last Monday and was at the game today - stood up for the entirety of both games. My legs ache a little bit, but I'd much rather stand, every time. I remember going to Palace in the 99/00 season, where there were moany people behind me telling us to sit down, which really depleted my enjoyment of the match. Saying that, I've never really thought about how difficult it must be for people who are left in serious pain by having to stand up for 2 hours. It must make a game like today's unbearable.
Every away game where we sell out our allocation, we end up with this argument and the polarisation of views.
I am with Len and those who say that in all seater stadia, the default position is people should sit.
Sadly most don't see it that way. Not only don't they agree, but they take it as a personal affront that anybody should question their "right" to stand.
This will never be solved unless they bring back safe standing areas because the authorities cannot/will not enforce the rules.
for standing throughout the match. You don't all stand at the Valley so why today, don't you have any consideration for those of us who are unable to stand for long periods? You made the afternoon unbearably painfull. Usually at away games I sit near the front and the standing element go up the back but today no consideration was given to those of us who could not stand.
Did you ask the people in front of you to sit down? If anyone ever asks me to sit down i always do and then ask the people in front of me to sit down and so forth.
If you did and they didnt then they were bang out of order. If you didnt and have saved it to rant on the internet then perhaps you should speak up and you may be suprised how most Charlton fans are considerate particularly to the older generation rather than the usual character assasination our away fans seem to get every week,
I have every sympathy with LL. I have a collapsed vertebrae that means I cannot stand for prolonged periods. It was a very painful afternoon for me also. The same thing happened at Orient and I had to end up getting into a confrontational situation with a fellow fan in order to get some relief. Something needs to to done about it. I can fully understand why fans want to stand and if my back was OK I wouldn't mind standing up as well!
Have read all the posts made so far and can see both sides of the "arguement".
You state that " something needs to be done about it " and I have to agree . I have spent 90 minutes in close proximity to the lads with the drum at 2 away games this season ( both sellouts & both with my seat in the back row of the stands which I hate) Wasn't too happy with the unecessary aggression shown towards the home fans and the drum pounding inevitably made my old head hurt. But I believe that our Club is obliged to sell tickets block by block, hence it's pot luck where you get to sit and as previously stated it IS a problem at matches were all tickets available have been sold.
So, what is the solution ?
For my sins, I am a member of the reconstituted Fans' Forum and would be happy to ask for this issue to be on the agenda of our forthcoming meeting on 16th January. Steve Kavanagh is always in attendance if at all possible , as are Wendy and Airman ie 3 of the most relevant of Club personnel to have a discussion of this nature.
We're asked to bring supporters' questions/problems to the table together with their suggestions for possible solutions so if Lifers feel it's worthwhile, I'm suggesting we start a new thread headed " Away ticketing - suggestions for improvement " which I'll take forward in 10 days time. I'm under no illusions that a solution to suit all parties will be found , and I'm certain that Airman has considered the problem at some length before he reads the comments /issues highlighted tonight. But if it helps to have your suggestions discussed at the Forum, then I'll put them forward.
If so then you are part of the problem. In fact, LL standing is also part of the problem, in the same way that me standing was too.
So, I ask again, what could we do about it?
I didn't go because I anticipated the problems and realise that I am not the sort of fan who is "welcome" to attend away matches.
I don't get drunk and abuse those around me who want to watch the match or sing racist songs.
I realise that means I am not a "proper" fan but so be it and furthermore from nearly 50 years of going I can cofidently assert that there are plenty of others who hold views similar to me but get shouted down
Ive read your posts Len for the past few years and Ive concluded:
a) a brilliant WUM
b) genuine and God help us if this country ever goes to war again
I don't attend away matches, the main reason being that I can't stand for long and knowing that so many away supporters do stand, it wouldn't be worth it. Surely until there are standing areas, everyone should sit so that EVERYONE can see. The football authorities should enforce this far more strictly. When at the Valley and we score, I do jump up, but immediately sit down again so that I don't spoil things for those behind me. Those that think it is their right to stand will be old and in need of a seat one day and will perhaps then realise how selfish they were when they were younger.
Was deafening atmosphere all game today and was so happy everyone stood today because it makes for a better atmosphere and looks class, sorry for those that struggled to stand including my dad who would have rathered to sit because he has terrible knees but he lumped it and because he isnt 5 he isn't gonna whinge about it.
Very sensible Fanny. There are of course two sides to the argument and there is no denying that we had a great atmosphere today with terrific support. However, if someone has paid for a seat, then they should be able to sit down to enjoy the match. We are all going to get old, and most I'm sure would want to keep watching the Addicks well into their 80's or 90's if possible. But how many of that age can stand comfortably for 90 minutes? In a way it's probably just a reflection of modern society ie a lack of consideration for others. I can understand people standing up when there is a goalscoring opportunity, but to keep standing when the ball is being knocked around in the middle of the park is needless.
I'm all for bringing back standing in English grounds. I enjoyed standing at Yeovil
It would kind of help to get this, if at least some of the people who assert their "right" to stand actually got up off their asses away from the grounds, during the week, and wrote to their MPs about it. That applies to everybody, not just Charlton fans.
I do feel genuinely sorry for anyone who is of an older age or not able to stand for that amount of time for whatever reason.
Today was always going to be everyone standing though and I do feel that it probably did make for a better atmosphere. As a short arse myself I remember hardly being able to see anything at loads of games in the old days but really enjoyed it today.
Was deafening atmosphere all game today and was so happy everyone stood today because it makes for a better atmosphere and looks class, sorry for those that struggled to stand including my dad who would have rathered to sit because he has terrible knees but he lumped it and because he isnt 5 he isn't gonna whinge about it.
There are those of us who can't lump it - we just CANNOT stand for that length of time. Your Father's is lucky that he did manage to stand even though he has bad knees. For some it is physically impossible. It isn't a case of whinging, everyone who has bought a seat has a right to sit comfortably in it.
I so understand that and i do feel for those but unfortunately I think it's something people have to accept is gonna happen, mainly at big games and plan accordingly, i.e get seats most likely to not have people in front standing and I hate to say it but if you know everyones gonna stand and you physically cannot stand for that long then it might be best if you gave it a miss.
I would love to have gone, but I could not stand for long and knowing that what appears to have happened, did happen, it was just as well as I wouldn't have been able to see anything. What a shame that people are afraid to go because they are worried that they won't be able to see. Perhaps those that moan about our away support would consider the reasons why so many season ticket holders don't attend away matches.
I so understand that and i do feel for those but unfortunately I think it's something people have to accept is gonna happen, mainly at big games and plan accordingly, i.e get seats most likely to not have people in front standing and I hate to say it but if you know everyones gonna stand and you physically cannot stand for that long then it might be best if you gave it a miss.
I disagree. If you want to sit down you have every right too. My point is that of all the charlton fans i know they are on the whole decent people and if an older person (or anyone) asked them to sit down in front of them they would.
To avoid the game or moan about standing and not asking the people in front to sit and then judge our fanbase as a bunch of scumbag selfish racists is odd.
FFS!! When struggling to stand, Did you think...No I won't ask them to sit down or see if I can swap seats or something, I'll just wait till I get on here and moan.
I would love to have gone, but I could not stand for long and knowing that what appears to have happened, did happen, it was just as well as I wouldn't have been able to see anything. What a shame that people are afraid to go because they are worried that they won't be able to see. Perhaps those that moan about our away support would consider the reasons why so many season ticket holders don't attend away matches.
ME14 if you ask the people to sit down in front of you they would? My dad cant stand so i ask the people to sit in front of us or move to the front swapping seats with those at the front who want to stand.
Agree the law says you should sit but sometimes common sense comes into play and it shouldnt put you off going to games.
Think you find ME14 that at every other away game we have had this season you would have had the opportunity to sit. You, Len at al keep stereotyping the people who travel up and down the country though....
Sorry Off-it aren't I allowed to put my view, are we all bound by your view on things, is CL only for you and your lot.
I was I agony this afternoon, had to miss seeing some of the match and leave early, after being a Charlton supporter for over 50 years I think I have aright to moan, so go bury your head
"My lot"? I don't think my dad or son are members of Charlton Life so I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.
I feel sorry for you if you were in pain, really I do. It was a good day out, for most, we took 7,000 fans and the atmosphere and support was great. But it seems to me there's always people from within digging our own fans out.
Maybe that's a bit unfair to you, but I don't think most of us had any choice in the matter so I don't really see why you are digging everyone out in your opening post. Nothing personal, but I hope you get my point.
If you really do feel sorry for someone who was in pain why would your reaction be:
Didn't take long.
FFS, people just LOVE to moan on here.
I would have thought that 'Shut Up, I don't care about you' would have been an honest reply. For you are apparently an inconsiderate, selfish bastard.
I personally prefer to stand but if there are no seats provided for those who are physically incapable of standing then I'm afraid that people have to sit. It is simply a matter of common decency.
This really is an issue that the authorities have to address. If no-one is going to enforce those in seated areas to sit (starting with the front row) then we may aswell rip the seats out. Again, I put this link for those who feel strongly enough to do something about it: http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding.php
Until something IS done people should either:
a). Sit
b). Have the balls to say here online: 'I refuse to sit because I'm an inconsiderate selfish bastard' and not try to justify it or say 'I'm sorry but', 'You suffered for the team' or some other shit that helps you cover up that nagging guilty feeling.
Did you ask the people in front of you to sit down? If anyone ever asks me to sit down i always do and then ask the people in front of me to sit down and so forth.
If you did and they didnt then they were bang out of order. If you didnt and have saved it to rant on the internet then perhaps you should speak up and you may be suprised how most Charlton fans are considerate particularly to the older generation rather than the usual character assasination our away fans seem to get every week,
Would it make it a lot easier if they can swap seats then everybody is happy.
I remember one away game when we was a row in front of the back end and we were standing but we got 'told' by fans behind us to sit down. We asked if they want to swap seats so they can sit down and we can stand but they refused. Surely going one row infront won't do any harm? I can understand fans like LL who prefer to sit down because of circumstances so it would be best to swap seats so everyone can be happy.
It did not help Charlton having this policy of 'you get what you give' I think requesting for tickets would have been wise. We was near the front and would have prefered the back because we would class ourselves as 'singers and standing' and not sitting and watching.
Whether you like it or not, there are some fans like myself who like standing rather than sitting because we get more enjoyment standing, don't ask why but we just do. So there are going to be arguments and I won't be suprised if another thread similar to this pops up when we have a sellout away game.
Comments
Saying that, I've never really thought about how difficult it must be for people who are left in serious pain by having to stand up for 2 hours. It must make a game like today's unbearable.
Did you ask the people in front of you to sit down? If anyone ever asks me to sit down i always do and then ask the people in front of me to sit down and so forth.
If you did and they didnt then they were bang out of order. If you didnt and have saved it to rant on the internet then perhaps you should speak up and you may be suprised how most Charlton fans are considerate particularly to the older generation rather than the usual character assasination our away fans seem to get every week,
Have read all the posts made so far and can see both sides of the "arguement".
You state that " something needs to be done about it " and I have to agree . I have spent 90 minutes in close proximity to the lads with the drum at 2 away games this season ( both sellouts & both with my seat in the back row of the stands which I hate) Wasn't too happy with the unecessary aggression shown towards the home fans and the drum pounding inevitably made my old head hurt. But I believe that our Club is obliged to sell tickets block by block, hence it's pot luck where you get to sit and as previously stated it IS a problem at matches were all tickets available have been sold.
So, what is the solution ?
For my sins, I am a member of the reconstituted Fans' Forum and would be happy to ask for this issue to be on the agenda of our forthcoming meeting on 16th January. Steve Kavanagh is always in attendance if at all possible , as are Wendy and Airman ie 3 of the most relevant of Club personnel to have a discussion of this nature.
We're asked to bring supporters' questions/problems to the table together with their suggestions for possible solutions so if Lifers feel it's worthwhile, I'm suggesting we start a new thread headed " Away ticketing - suggestions for improvement " which I'll take forward in 10 days time. I'm under no illusions that a solution to suit all parties will be found , and I'm certain that Airman has considered the problem at some length before he reads the comments /issues highlighted tonight. But if it helps to have your suggestions discussed at the Forum, then I'll put them forward.
Just let me know , please.
Ive read your posts Len for the past few years and Ive concluded:
a) a brilliant WUM
b) genuine and God help us if this country ever goes to war again
In a way it's probably just a reflection of modern society ie a lack of consideration for others. I can understand people standing up when there is a goalscoring opportunity, but to keep standing when the ball is being knocked around in the middle of the park is needless.
Your loss then.
I disagree. If you want to sit down you have every right too. My point is that of all the charlton fans i know they are on the whole decent people and if an older person (or anyone) asked them to sit down in front of them they would.
To avoid the game or moan about standing and not asking the people in front to sit and then judge our fanbase as a bunch of scumbag selfish racists is odd.
FFS!! When struggling to stand, Did you think...No I won't ask them to sit down or see if I can swap seats or something, I'll just wait till I get on here and moan.
ME14 if you ask the people to sit down in front of you they would? My dad cant stand so i ask the people to sit in front of us or move to the front swapping seats with those at the front who want to stand.
Agree the law says you should sit but sometimes common sense comes into play and it shouldnt put you off going to games.
I personally prefer to stand but if there are no seats provided for those who are physically incapable of standing then I'm afraid that people have to sit. It is simply a matter of common decency.
This really is an issue that the authorities have to address. If no-one is going to enforce those in seated areas to sit (starting with the front row) then we may aswell rip the seats out. Again, I put this link for those who feel strongly enough to do something about it:
http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding.php
Until something IS done people should either:
a). Sit
b). Have the balls to say here online: 'I refuse to sit because I'm an inconsiderate selfish bastard' and not try to justify it or say 'I'm sorry but', 'You suffered for the team' or some other shit that helps you cover up that nagging guilty feeling.
I remember one away game when we was a row in front of the back end and we were standing but we got 'told' by fans behind us to sit down. We asked if they want to swap seats so they can sit down and we can stand but they refused. Surely going one row infront won't do any harm? I can understand fans like LL who prefer to sit down because of
circumstances so it would be best to swap seats so everyone can be
happy.
It did not help Charlton having this policy of 'you get what you give' I
think requesting for tickets would have been wise. We was near the
front and would have prefered the back because we would class ourselves
as 'singers and standing' and not sitting and watching.
Whether you like it or not, there are some fans like myself who like standing rather than sitting because we get more enjoyment standing, don't ask why but we just do. So there are going to be arguments and I won't be suprised if another thread similar to this pops up when we have a sellout away game.
'I refuse to sit because I'm an inconsiderate selfish bastard'