There is a solution for those fans who want to watch us at away games but don't want to put up with the standing etc.: just sit in the home end, preferably the so-called 'main stand' (the equivalent of our West Stand).
I have done this on numerous occasions eg Brentford, and it is a far more pleasant experience so long as you have no problem sitting on your hands if we score. I don't have a physical problem with standing but I would rather just sit and watch the game.
If the idea of watching Charlton whilst sat with the opposition fans is abhorrent, then you only have two other options: sit in the away end (with all of the above issues) or don't go at all. Of the three options, mine seems the most attractive.
What suzi described has happened to me before and it spoilt the game. I can understand people have to stand because those in front are standing - but it's those who chose to who are being selfish inconsiderate you know whats. Why does going to a football match mean that you shpuld behave like a yob and don't have to care about other fans? Sorry I don't get it!
I expect some of those who stood and thought nothing of it to criticise me on here but it needs to be said.
@Jimmy Melrose "This really is an issue that the authorities have to address. If no-one is going to enforce those in seated areas to sit (starting with the front row) then we may aswell rip the seats out. Again, I put this link for those who feel strongly enough to do something about it: http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding.php
Until something IS done people should either:
a). Sit
b). Have the balls to say here online: 'I refuse to sit because I'm an inconsiderate selfish bastard' and not try to justify it or say 'I'm sorry but', 'You suffered for the team' or some other shit that helps you cover up that nagging guilty feeling."
Great post Jimmy. I just went and did what you suggested. It took me less time than it takes to post here. After signing, you can see who else has signed, and what team they support. Sadly only one other Charlton supporter had already signed it in the last few hours. His name is Carl Cashman. Good for him. The rest of you who bang on here about the right to stand,or the inevitability of it, but couldn't be assed to sign, take a good look at yourselves.
And by the way you can see some great comments with the signatures, e.g. this from an Udders fan:
"Its just nonsense that I can go to the same stadium the following day to watch Rugby League, stand, drink beer in the stand and the same stewards that were there the day before will not interfere."
As a youngster I loved standing and a good surge (on the rare occassion it was packed) or a mental loop when we scored but those days are long gone apart from the odd game I can sing just as loud sitting down as standing up , it is selfish to stand in seated areas but I suppose standing makes some feel a little tough and hard Obviously it looks better standing and you can bounce etc but I'd rather we all sat and got more to these away games Still a new(ish) excuse is born to explain our poor numbers but I can assure you that other clubs will have the same issues and still bring a few There'll be a squillion empty seats in the away end next week where everyone will be able to sit /stand as they please so keep it that way and don't go :-)
Is it that big an issue where Charlton are concerned? We rarely sell out our entire away allocation and, even when we do, a high percentage will sit. For whatever reason, yesterday was an exception to the rule but for people to base their non attendance at away games because of this 'problem' is ridiculous. I'm sure if you're in the right seat there'll be a great view if you're stay sitting down at Sheffield, Exeter and the rest of our away games this season.
No excuse for people not being sympathetic to the plight of those behind them though especially if it's children or the elderly and I'd like to think if I or one of my friends had been asked to move like Suzi and her friends were, then we'd have done the same thing.
@Jimmy Melrose "This really is an issue that the authorities have to address. If no-one is going to enforce those in seated areas to sit (starting with the front row) then we may aswell rip the seats out. Again, I put this link for those who feel strongly enough to do something about it: http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding.php
Until something IS done people should either:
a). Sit
b). Have the balls to say here online: 'I refuse to sit because I'm an inconsiderate selfish bastard' and not try to justify it or say 'I'm sorry but', 'You suffered for the team' or some other shit that helps you cover up that nagging guilty feeling."
Great post Jimmy. I just went and did what you suggested. It took me less time than it takes to post here. After signing, you can see who else has signed, and what team they support. Sadly only one other Charlton supporter had already signed it in the last few hours. His name is Carl Cashman. Good for him. The rest of you who bang on here about the right to stand,or the inevitability of it, but couldn't be assed to sign, take a good look at yourselves.
Ay, that was me. I used to love standing as a kid when my step dad used to take me to Luton games. Its a while ago now, but there always seemed to be a way around us kids not seeing if it was packed out... although as im talking about Luton it didnt happen much
It is a big game issue, only when the end is sold out or the game is big enough do we get mass standing beyond a couple of hundreds at the back of the stand. Fulham, Middlesborough, Palace, Millwall and a couple of others come to mind, but to describe it as a reason not to go, or as a 'problem' is to overhype the issue
It is absolutely amazing how we can put in a brave performance like we did and give it a real go and there are coming up for 200 posts on this subject. It is like groundhog day.
At the end of the day days like yesterday are an exception as Rothko implies above. It may not be right, legal or moral but there are going to be perhaps 1 or 2 away games per season where standing actually becomes a real desire and issue.
In the cold light of the morning after I would like to answer a few of the suggestions:
NYA - good idea to sit with away fans but I am a passionate noisy pensioner who sings and shouts but just can't stand up for 90 minutes
AdTheAddick - no I couldn't be a Fulham fan for the above reason
Fanny - I think it might be worth bringing up at the Fans Forum although I do think this game was a bit of a one off. I tend to attend mostly away games and don't have a problem as the away end is never full, however I'm not sure about Hillsborough and shall phone the commercial centre tomorrow and see where my seats put me and if necessary ask for a move, if the club are unsympathetic to my request I'll let you know as it will then be worth mentioning. Also if our current form continues there are more likely to be more full away ends this season, especially at some of the smaller grounds like Chesterfield.
I would like to reiterate that I thoroughly enjoyed the atmosphere yesterday afternoon and joined in with the young fans around me, I just had to sit at times and was in a lot of pain, I didn't see anywhere else where I could sit with the atmosphere didn't think it advisable to ask the person in front of me to sit down. The stadium is all seater, it is not like the terrace days, and if all seater we should be able to sit so yes I shall be writing to my local MP and suggest other like minded supporters write to theirs as the best solution is to allow clubs to have standing areas within the ground.
As it stands, we have a situation that no-one is happy with and people are getting hacked off with one another either for blocking their view or for having the temerity to complain about it. But the underlying problem isn't the people - either the sitters or the standers. It is the fault of a system where people with conflicting desires/needs are forced together. Consequently, whatever the outcome someone is going to be unhappy.
It is ironic that one of the biggest political buzzwords over the last 30 years is "choice" and yet politicians of all shades have ignored the fact that football supporters would like to make very different choices as to how they watch our national sport.
It's a real pity that of all the millions of people who attend football, to date only 13,000 people have signed the petition. That should be the number just from a club like Charlton, not from the whole football community. If anyone has any objections to the principle of safe standing, please put them in the thread below; I would genuinely like to hear the arguments. If, not please get on the FSF site and sign the petition. It's better to try and do something constructive about this than to bicker amongst ourselves.
Len, you are mixing up a whole load of unrelated issues here.
If you stick to the point of those who want or need to sit there might be a chance that a compromise can be found with some kind of informal agreement either with the club or fellow supporters for away games that sell out.
You are right.
I linked the issues because in my mind there is a common bond of selfishness and lack of consideration but on reflection I should have stuck to the one point as you state.
I'm sorry but standing at away games is something that is inevitable, and there isn't much you can do about it. It doesn't matter how many people in-front of you that you can get to sit down, somewhere along the line there will be a group of people who will stand no matter who is behind them, and therefore everyone behind them will have to stand. There are limited solutions to this:
A) Don't go to away matches
Get some kind of initiative going whereby clubs offer one whole block to people who 'have' to sit down
C) Get tested, get a pass and go in the disabled area
D) Get on with it and stand up
This post sums up the attitude of "proper" fans better than I can.
I'm sorry but standing at away games is something that is inevitable, and there isn't much you can do about it. It doesn't matter how many people in-front of you that you can get to sit down, somewhere along the line there will be a group of people who will stand no matter who is behind them, and therefore everyone behind them will have to stand. There are limited solutions to this:
A) Don't go to away matches
Get some kind of initiative going whereby clubs offer one whole block to people who 'have' to sit down
C) Get tested, get a pass and go in the disabled area
D) Get on with it and stand up
This post sums up the attitude of "proper" fans better than I can.
Fanny - I think it might be worth bringing up at the Fans Forum although I do think this game was a bit of a one off. I tend to attend mostly away games and don't have a problem as the away end is never full, however I'm not sure about Hillsborough and shall phone the commercial centre tomorrow and see where my seats put me and if necessary ask for a move, if the club are unsympathetic to my request I'll let you know as it will then be worth mentioning. Also if our current form continues there are more likely to be more full away ends this season, especially at some of the smaller grounds like Chesterfield.
Thanks, lancashire lad.
Another FF member who reads these posts has already circulated an email to other members, agreeing that said item be included on the agenda.
However, as suzi rightly pointed out, there would appear little that the Club can do and this issue has been discussed at some length in the past.
But that doesn't mean that we can't resurrect it again, with a fresh look at the situation. It would be ideal if tickets could be sold in the way that Yeovil operates ( seating only available to ambulant disabled, over 65's and families ) but of course they have mainly terracing /standing for away fans anyway. I'm guessing that, if we knew up front how many tickets we would be guaranteed to sell for a particular away game, then maybe the initial block/section could be allocated a la categories used at Yeovil bearing in mind it would be first come, first served. However, this policy could only be implemented with the assistance of a certain Lifer's crytal ball ....
for standing throughout the match. You don't all stand at the Valley so why today, don't you have any consideration for those of us who are unable to stand for long periods? You made the afternoon unbearably painfull. Usually at away games I sit near the front and the standing element go up the back but today no consideration was given to those of us who could not stand.
what they should have done was maybe had a section for the older supporters or people who wanted to sit , i sit in the north upper and really love standing it makes the game more enjoyable especially when everyones vocal aswell i shall be standing as per usual against wednesday.
But at Orient i had to sit because their was a man with 2 young children i didnt enjoy it but had to bare with it.
I'm sorry but standing at away games is something that is inevitable, and there isn't much you can do about it. It doesn't matter how many people in-front of you that you can get to sit down, somewhere along the line there will be a group of people who will stand no matter who is behind them, and therefore everyone behind them will have to stand. There are limited solutions to this:
A) Don't go to away matches
Get some kind of initiative going whereby clubs offer one whole block to people who 'have' to sit down
C) Get tested, get a pass and go in the disabled area
D) Get on with it and stand up
This post sums up the attitude of "proper" fans better than I can.
I love the comment about people "having to sit down" do you not understand that EVERYONE has to sit down.
Considering the club knew there was going to huge demand for this game, is there no way they can distribute tickets depending on what people want to do?
Fans should be asked to "indicate" whether they would like to sit and the ticket office can then dish out tickets near the front for the elderly fans who want to sit and tickets near the back for those who want to stand.
and then deal with the complaints from fans who spent 20 minutes on hold on the premium line whilst the club were filling out a questionnaire on each phone call about where each person would like to sit ?
the tickets come from the away club in blocks of piles i'd assume and with numerous staff selling from different piles to enable each fan gets theirs as quickly as possible, it would be quite difficult I'd assume for them to work out where certain seats are and add more to their job of shifting the tickets.
this does't even take into consideration the staggered way of selling the tickets to VG holders/ Away supporters etc, to add a further complication into the way they are sold needing the club to predict with psychic abilities who is going to call at what time and at what point during the weeks they are on sale would need airman brown to go on a mystic meg course and I'm not sure the club has the budget for that.
Considering the club knew there was going to huge demand for this game, is there no way they can distribute tickets depending on what people want to do?
Fans should be asked to "indicate" whether they would like to sit and the ticket office can then dish out tickets near the front for the elderly fans who want to sit and tickets near the back for those who want to stand.
It's not about what people want to do though is it ? In all seater stadia by law you must sit down.
Considering the club knew there was going to huge demand for this game, is there no way they can distribute tickets depending on what people want to do?
Fans should be asked to "indicate" whether they would like to sit and the ticket office can then dish out tickets near the front for the elderly fans who want to sit and tickets near the back for those who want to stand.
It's not about what people want to do though is it ? In all seater stadia by law you must sit down.
Considering the club knew there was going to huge demand for this game, is there no way they can distribute tickets depending on what people want to do?
Fans should be asked to "indicate" whether they would like to sit and the ticket office can then dish out tickets near the front for the elderly fans who want to sit and tickets near the back for those who want to stand.
It's not about what people want to do though is it ? In all seater stadia by law you must sit down.
- Standing in seated areas, is, however, contrary to ground regulations. For example, the Football League’s model set of ground regulations states: ‘Nobody may stand in any seating area whilst play is in progress. Persistent standing in seated areas whilst play is in progress is strictly forbidden and may result in ejection from the ground’.
Fair dos but it is against the rules which to all intents and purposes is the same thing ?
and then deal with the complaints from fans who spent 20 minutes on hold on the premium line whilst the club were filling out a questionnaire on each phone call about where each person would like to sit ?
the tickets come from the away club in blocks of piles i'd assume and with numerous staff selling from different piles to enable each fan gets theirs as quickly as possible, it would be quite difficult I'd assume for them to work out where certain seats are and add more to their job of shifting the tickets.
this does't even take into consideration the staggered way of selling the tickets to VG holders/ Away supporters etc, to add a further complication into the way they are sold needing the club to predict with psychic abilities who is going to call at what time and at what point during the weeks they are on sale would need airman brown to go on a mystic meg course and I'm not sure the club has the budget for that.
sign the petition if you want to stand.
My suggestion would be that the club add an extra field into the contact database for each contact and anyone who has problems standing can contact the club and ask them to update the database to reflect this in much the same way you do when you move house. That way at the same time as the staff are cross checking the name/address against the con number they can check that and attempt to give tickets in the front rows for anyone who needs them on a best endeavours basis.
I don't know the inner workings of the system or ticket office so that may be a total non starter but definitely worth asking the question as it's an issue that's clearly casuing a fair bit of division and bitterness amongst our supporters.
As much as people should sign the petition it's unlikely to deliver anything in the short term and even if it suceeds I doubt many clubs will be ripping out existing seats for the benefit of away fans when they can charge top wack for away seats as we do.
Comments
I have done this on numerous occasions eg Brentford, and it is a far more pleasant experience so long as you have no problem sitting on your hands if we score. I don't have a physical problem with standing but I would rather just sit and watch the game.
If the idea of watching Charlton whilst sat with the opposition fans is abhorrent, then you only have two other options: sit in the away end (with all of the above issues) or don't go at all. Of the three options, mine seems the most attractive.
I expect some of those who stood and thought nothing of it to criticise me on here but it needs to be said.
"This really is an issue that the authorities have to address. If no-one is going to enforce those in seated areas to sit (starting with the front row) then we may aswell rip the seats out. Again, I put this link for those who feel strongly enough to do something about it:
http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding.php
Until something IS done people should either:
a). Sit
b). Have the balls to say here online: 'I refuse to sit because I'm an inconsiderate selfish bastard' and not try to justify it or say 'I'm sorry but', 'You suffered for the team' or some other shit that helps you cover up that nagging guilty feeling."
Great post Jimmy. I just went and did what you suggested. It took me less time than it takes to post here. After signing, you can see who else has signed, and what team they support. Sadly only one other Charlton supporter had already signed it in the last few hours. His name is Carl Cashman. Good for him. The rest of you who bang on here about the right to stand,or the inevitability of it, but couldn't be assed to sign, take a good look at yourselves.
"Its just nonsense that I can go to the same stadium the following day to watch Rugby League, stand, drink beer in the stand and the same stewards that were there the day before will not interfere."
I can sing just as loud sitting down as standing up , it is selfish to stand in seated areas but I suppose standing makes some feel a little tough and hard
Obviously it looks better standing and you can bounce etc but I'd rather we all sat and got more to these away games
Still a new(ish) excuse is born to explain our poor numbers but I can assure you that other clubs will have the same issues and still bring a few
There'll be a squillion empty seats in the away end next week where everyone will be able to sit /stand as they please so keep it that way and don't go :-)
but to be fair my legs and back were in agony when the first half finished.
No excuse for people not being sympathetic to the plight of those behind them though especially if it's children or the elderly and I'd like to think if I or one of my friends had been asked to move like Suzi and her friends were, then we'd have done the same thing.
At the end of the day days like yesterday are an exception as Rothko implies above. It may not be right, legal or moral but there are going to be perhaps 1 or 2 away games per season where standing actually becomes a real desire and issue.
This thread is embarrassing.
NYA - good idea to sit with away fans but I am a passionate noisy pensioner who sings and shouts but just can't stand up for 90 minutes
AdTheAddick - no I couldn't be a Fulham fan for the above reason
Fanny - I think it might be worth bringing up at the Fans Forum although I do think this game was a bit of a one off. I tend to attend mostly away games and don't have a problem as the away end is never full, however I'm not sure about Hillsborough and shall phone the commercial centre tomorrow and see where my seats put me and if necessary ask for a move, if the club are unsympathetic to my request I'll let you know as it will then be worth mentioning. Also if our current form continues there are more likely to be more full away ends this season, especially at some of the smaller grounds like Chesterfield.
I would like to reiterate that I thoroughly enjoyed the atmosphere yesterday afternoon and joined in with the young fans around me, I just had to sit at times and was in a lot of pain, I didn't see anywhere else where I could sit with the atmosphere didn't think it advisable to ask the person in front of me to sit down. The stadium is all seater, it is not like the terrace days, and if all seater we should be able to sit so yes I shall be writing to my local MP and suggest other like minded supporters write to theirs as the best solution is to allow clubs to have standing areas within the ground.
As it stands, we have a situation that no-one is happy with and people are getting hacked off with one another either for blocking their view or for having the temerity to complain about it. But the underlying problem isn't the people - either the sitters or the standers. It is the fault of a system where people with conflicting desires/needs are forced together. Consequently, whatever the outcome someone is going to be unhappy.
It is ironic that one of the biggest political buzzwords over the last 30 years is "choice" and yet politicians of all shades have ignored the fact that football supporters would like to make very different choices as to how they watch our national sport.
It's a real pity that of all the millions of people who attend football, to date only 13,000 people have signed the petition. That should be the number just from a club like Charlton, not from the whole football community. If anyone has any objections to the principle of safe standing, please put them in the thread below; I would genuinely like to hear the arguments. If, not please get on the FSF site and sign the petition. It's better to try and do something constructive about this than to bicker amongst ourselves.
I linked the issues because in my mind there is a common bond of selfishness and lack of consideration but on reflection I should have stuck to the one point as you state.
done it, so come on the rest of you sign the petition.
Fanny - I think it might be worth bringing up at the Fans Forum although I do think this game was a bit of a one off. I tend to attend mostly away games and don't have a problem as the away end is never full, however I'm not sure about Hillsborough and shall phone the commercial centre tomorrow and see where my seats put me and if necessary ask for a move, if the club are unsympathetic to my request I'll let you know as it will then be worth mentioning. Also if our current form continues there are more likely to be more full away ends this season, especially at some of the smaller grounds like Chesterfield.
Thanks, lancashire lad.
Another FF member who reads these posts has already circulated an email to other members, agreeing that said item be included on the agenda.
However, as suzi rightly pointed out, there would appear little that the Club can do and this issue has been discussed at some length in the past.
But that doesn't mean that we can't resurrect it again, with a fresh look at the situation. It would be ideal if tickets could be sold in the way that Yeovil operates ( seating only available to ambulant disabled, over 65's and families ) but of course they have mainly terracing /standing for away fans anyway. I'm guessing that, if we knew up front how many tickets we would be guaranteed to sell for a particular away game, then maybe the initial block/section could be allocated a la categories used at Yeovil bearing in mind it would be first come, first served. However, this policy could only be implemented with the assistance of a certain Lifer's crytal ball ....
A toughie for sure .
But at Orient i had to sit because their was a man with 2 young children i didnt enjoy it but had to bare with it.
Fans should be asked to "indicate" whether they would like to sit and the ticket office can then dish out tickets near the front for the elderly fans who want to sit and tickets near the back for those who want to stand.
the tickets come from the away club in blocks of piles i'd assume and with numerous staff selling from different piles to enable each fan gets theirs as quickly as possible, it would be quite difficult I'd assume for them to work out where certain seats are and add more to their job of shifting the tickets.
this does't even take into consideration the staggered way of selling the tickets to VG holders/ Away supporters etc, to add a further complication into the way they are sold needing the club to predict with psychic abilities who is going to call at what time and at what point during the weeks they are on sale would need airman brown to go on a mystic meg course and I'm not sure the club has the budget for that.
sign the petition if you want to stand.
It's not about what people want to do though is it ? In all seater stadia by law you must sit down.
However, anyone with " those blocks of piles" would have been happy to stand yesterday ...OUCH !
Fair dos but it is against the rules which to all intents and purposes is the same thing ?
How many times have the away supporters stood throughout a game at The Valley & been allowed to do so ?
I don't know the inner workings of the system or ticket office so that may be a total non starter but definitely worth asking the question as it's an issue that's clearly casuing a fair bit of division and bitterness amongst our supporters.
As much as people should sign the petition it's unlikely to deliver anything in the short term and even if it suceeds I doubt many clubs will be ripping out existing seats for the benefit of away fans when they can charge top wack for away seats as we do.