There were apparently 6 coaches on Saturday ... OB insisted that that they all had to meet at the edge of Blackheath before being 'escorted' to the Toolbox.
It appears that after about 20 minutes all the coaches had arrived, went on their way and were then mostly separated from OB due to the numerous traffic lights ... what a waste of time!
VG, you seem like a decent bloke so let's not fall out - although you are sounding a bit like a Vietnam vet (you weren't there man... ).
What did you expect at Millwall? As someone has said, they have to be so strict there so as not to lose their entertainment licence. This is why The Den is a ground i won't go to.
The bebaviour described and evident on the vids only serves to perpetuate police tactics.
Had we won, I'm sure it wouldn't have made for such a talking point. i seem to remember Millwall and Palace fans coming on here and moaning about arguably worse treatment at our place. Let's not be like them please!
All im saying is its far too easy to pass judgement on behaviour from watching a 2 minute clip from Youtube. The behaviour on the clip is extremely light hearted as to compare to what it could have been like. Its a good job our supporters arent like Millwalls and can actually have a laugh. I expected abit of rough treatment from some Millwall and gave the fixture abit of extra buzz, but the OB were a joke. Had no back-up plan when it looked like going pearshape. Saying we deserved to be treated like that cos of our behaviour is way off the mark....and what pissed me off. Im willing to let it go now as whats done is done. Ill know what to expect when we go back in May!!
I can't believe the fuss being made regarding the decision to keep us in. It happens to every club who go there with a sizable following and always will. In doing so it was probably one of the safest away games to go to. Complete ob overkill, probably more than needed but how much moaning would there had been if we had not got kept in, as it WOULD have gone off up the station.
Regards the actual policing - Football ob are in the main Pure Scum. If you have not learnt that by now, I don't know where you have been. There is no defending them, but on the whole due to our rep, we get a lot less hassle than most clubs fans.
Any complaints about Saturday are bound to sound like sour grapes, unfortunately. I'm sure the club will listen to any representations made to them and act accordingly, but that's not my decision. I don't think holding people back was unreasonable, but the way it was done was inept. My observations would include:
1) The "police ecort" of the away coaches was feeble before and non-existent after the match, which would have been a flashpoint had we won. Mind you, the nearby pubs would probably have been closed by the time we got out.
2) The forcing of too many people into the end block of the upper tier, leading to overcrowding and standing in the gangway was inept, and the management of the situation once it had arisen was poor. Unreserved seating will have contributed but was exacerbated by weak stewarding. These are questions for their safety officer to answer.
3) The management of the departure of the majority of Charlton fans via the walkway, with police in riot helmets pressing on either end, seemed ridiculous.
But if the stewarding was inept, as you say, then surely there are questions for Millwall to answer? They clearly have a problem dealing with capacity crowds.
The lock-in struck me as dangerous - and as I and others heard from Millwall staff that a key for the gate had been lost, this has to be something for the safety authority (Lewisham council?) to investigate. And ending up in a mostly-empty lower-tier block while the upper tier was packed to the rafters was just daft. It was obvious the stewards had lost control (one I spoke to in the first half admitted as much).
Obviously the Met Police's tactics with any crowd situation is to wind people up - but something went pretty badly wrong at Millwall's end.
[cite]Posted By: The Organiser[/cite]Not practical though is it. 16k or 3k - just the way it is.
I take your point, however if they never receive punishment for the way they are they will never change, and I totally resent being held back, thankfully I managed to leave after the 3rd goal without the inconvenience of previous occasions.
Yes, there are questions for them to answer, I'm just very sceptical that we will get anywhere and I'm not sure it's worth the effort. I didn't think the lock-in was dangerous personally, but the lack of effective stewarding is another matter. Once the seats were full, they should have closed the access to the upper tier and they certainly shouldn't have allowed people to stand in gangways for ten or 15 minutes. The police filmed this, but no doubt they were looking for evidence against fans rather than breaches of the safety certificate.
The police on the concourse were telling people at half time that the plan was that if the game continued as it was, ie Millwall winning, we would be shepherded out down the walkway and onto the first train before they let Millwall into the station.
At 3-0 and with nearly 15 to go, i decided i had had enough and would rather get the first train back and in the pub before the usual end of match disorganisation. Of course though, what the police had said wasn't true, and we were allowed out the stand and then kept in the pen for a hour.
I have no problem at being kept back after a game if that is what is necessary. But it wasn't necessary at that point in time. If they had said over the tannoy we would be kept back, then none of us would have got up and tried to leave. Equally, if there was no intention of letting supporters back to the station, then there is no reason they should have opened the stand exits and then kept us in that pen.
Even though i was not there, the most serious thing is the question of the lost key and what would have happened if there was a fire or someone needed urgent medical attention?
It would be serious but it's hard to believe. It smacks of a wind-up. In any event, there are at least three separate ways out of that compound, not including through the stadium itself.
Millwall and the police really need to have a long hard look at their management of the away end on Saturday.
As has been said numerous times before, the complete lack of communication before, during or after the game made the whole situation a 1000x worse. Clearly it was a premeditated decision to keep us all in for some time after the game, why not let us know?! Repeatedly saying you'll have to wait "a few more minutes", and then being stood there over 30 minutes later only caused more anger and outcry.
The stewarding was a joke. Unreserved seating for that many people is simply unworkable and shouldn't be allowed. Unlike Millwall fans, we can sit in an allocated seat and this would have reduced any seating problems to near 0.
The attitude of the OB was disgusting. Sarcastic comments left right and centre only exacerbated the issue and caused more problems in itself. I stood a little way back from the front but their aggressive nature was clear for all to see.
Finally was such obtrusive video filming really necessary?! Even at London Bridge where a Charlton fan asked the copper for directions, his colleague instantly turned the camera on him to film. Overkill or what?
I would fully agree that the decisions made should be reviewed as they were not adequate for the situation. I do not however agree that the the attitude of the police was disgusting and clear for all to see. Several of us were chatting to the police whilst waiting in the cage, including the policeman attached to Charlton. They were friendly, chatty and anything but aggressive, but I do accept that others did not have such a good experience.
Come on guys lets be real we all had the hump saturday but do you think realistically they was going to let 1,500 pissed off fans just wander out?
As soon as they realised the way it was going they changed there plans. I think its pretty much time to draw a line under this
we'll see how keen everyone is to not be kept behind there once we've nicked a last minute winner in the play off semi ....
not that that would happen but i genuinely woud be concerned for the welfare of charlton fans should that instance occur , remember they have a large element of SCUM support
But that will open up a whole can of worms... all the CCTV will be pulled. all those of you climbing over fences etc. throwing the helmets (disgraceful behaviour :-)) will be viewed and more culprits will be found.
But that will open up a whole can of worms... all the CCTV will be pulled. all those of you climbing over fences etc. throwing the helmets (disgraceful) will be viewed and more culprits will be found.
Possibly, but if a copper has punched a member of public in the face, then action needs to be taken in my opinion.
[cite]Posted By: Curb_It[/cite]But that will open up a whole can of worms... all the CCTV will be pulled. all those of you climbing over fences etc. throwing the helmets (disgraceful) will be viewed and more culprits will be found.
Agreed, I'm quite glad I just stood there and although right in the middle of the scrum managed to do nothing despite emotions running high apart from be shoved around and have a sing song... others will not be so lucky
CCTV camera right on that pylon to catch everything, not to mention the hand-held film from the line at the front
Stuck between a rock & a hard place though. If a Charlton fan is alledging an assault by a police officer, they cant be seen to be doing nothing. Anyhoo, you think that the CCTV hasnt already been looked at then you need to think again.
Comments
It appears that after about 20 minutes all the coaches had arrived, went on their way and were then mostly separated from OB due to the numerous traffic lights ... what a waste of time!
What did you expect at Millwall? As someone has said, they have to be so strict there so as not to lose their entertainment licence. This is why The Den is a ground i won't go to.
The bebaviour described and evident on the vids only serves to perpetuate police tactics.
Had we won, I'm sure it wouldn't have made for such a talking point. i seem to remember Millwall and Palace fans coming on here and moaning about arguably worse treatment at our place. Let's not be like them please!
Puerile comment .. the fact is that you were not there and are basing your 'opinion' on a 2 minute youtube video.
I can't believe the fuss being made regarding the decision to keep us in. It happens to every club who go there with a sizable following and always will. In doing so it was probably one of the safest away games to go to. Complete ob overkill, probably more than needed but how much moaning would there had been if we had not got kept in, as it WOULD have gone off up the station.
Regards the actual policing - Football ob are in the main Pure Scum. If you have not learnt that by now, I don't know where you have been. There is no defending them, but on the whole due to our rep, we get a lot less hassle than most clubs fans.
1) The "police ecort" of the away coaches was feeble before and non-existent after the match, which would have been a flashpoint had we won. Mind you, the nearby pubs would probably have been closed by the time we got out.
2) The forcing of too many people into the end block of the upper tier, leading to overcrowding and standing in the gangway was inept, and the management of the situation once it had arisen was poor. Unreserved seating will have contributed but was exacerbated by weak stewarding. These are questions for their safety officer to answer.
3) The management of the departure of the majority of Charlton fans via the walkway, with police in riot helmets pressing on either end, seemed ridiculous.
The lock-in struck me as dangerous - and as I and others heard from Millwall staff that a key for the gate had been lost, this has to be something for the safety authority (Lewisham council?) to investigate. And ending up in a mostly-empty lower-tier block while the upper tier was packed to the rafters was just daft. It was obvious the stewards had lost control (one I spoke to in the first half admitted as much).
Obviously the Met Police's tactics with any crowd situation is to wind people up - but something went pretty badly wrong at Millwall's end.
I take your point, however if they never receive punishment for the way they are they will never change, and I totally resent being held back, thankfully I managed to leave after the 3rd goal without the inconvenience of previous occasions.
At 3-0 and with nearly 15 to go, i decided i had had enough and would rather get the first train back and in the pub before the usual end of match disorganisation. Of course though, what the police had said wasn't true, and we were allowed out the stand and then kept in the pen for a hour.
I have no problem at being kept back after a game if that is what is necessary. But it wasn't necessary at that point in time. If they had said over the tannoy we would be kept back, then none of us would have got up and tried to leave. Equally, if there was no intention of letting supporters back to the station, then there is no reason they should have opened the stand exits and then kept us in that pen.
As has been said numerous times before, the complete lack of communication before, during or after the game made the whole situation a 1000x worse. Clearly it was a premeditated decision to keep us all in for some time after the game, why not let us know?! Repeatedly saying you'll have to wait "a few more minutes", and then being stood there over 30 minutes later only caused more anger and outcry.
The stewarding was a joke. Unreserved seating for that many people is simply unworkable and shouldn't be allowed. Unlike Millwall fans, we can sit in an allocated seat and this would have reduced any seating problems to near 0.
The attitude of the OB was disgusting. Sarcastic comments left right and centre only exacerbated the issue and caused more problems in itself. I stood a little way back from the front but their aggressive nature was clear for all to see.
Finally was such obtrusive video filming really necessary?! Even at London Bridge where a Charlton fan asked the copper for directions, his colleague instantly turned the camera on him to film. Overkill or what?
As soon as they realised the way it was going they changed there plans. I think its pretty much time to draw a line under this
Some really niave people on this thread.
If they let us out on mass what do you think the welcoming committee wouldve been like!!
The unallocated seats is the main issue for me.
not that that would happen but i genuinely woud be concerned for the welfare of charlton fans should that instance occur , remember they have a large element of SCUM support
http://www.cafc.co.uk/newsview.ink?nid=35789
But that will open up a whole can of worms... all the CCTV will be pulled. all those of you climbing over fences etc. throwing the helmets (disgraceful behaviour :-)) will be viewed and more culprits will be found.
Possibly, but if a copper has punched a member of public in the face, then action needs to be taken in my opinion.
Agreed, I'm quite glad I just stood there and although right in the middle of the scrum managed to do nothing despite emotions running high apart from be shoved around and have a sing song... others will not be so lucky
CCTV camera right on that pylon to catch everything, not to mention the hand-held film from the line at the front
Not very clever by the club this