Someone posted much earlier in this thread that Parky had been lucky with injuries. Because of injury, Racon played just 3 games by February. ZZ played only 105 minutes by mid March
Effective at the start of the season, Fortune played only a handful of games between 2 lengthy spells of injury, Gray played on and off despite family trauma, but had been carrying serious injury since pre-season. Semedo, pretty dependable at either RB or CM, missed entire 2nd half of the season
Coupled to the fact that Bailey had completely lost his way before February Weaver's form dipped, and was replaced for the entire 2nd half of season by a rookie keeper, inconsistant to begin with. Sam had a confidence crisis. Ambrose, recovering from major surgery, then shunted off to Ipswich, had absolutely no impact on his return. Varney, despite loss of form, was still a thorn in the side of opponents but sold to pay off Pardew Bouazza, our quality player and wild card was recalled in January, with no replacement.
Dependable loans in Murty and McEverley were prematurely curtailed by injury.
Others came and went with minimal impact.
Just which quality players exactly were willing to sign a full contract at a bottom of the table club in January?
Burton, Spring,, that's who. The list was not exactly as long as your arm, and even so, the finance was not there.
These are just a those instances that come quickly to mind. It's not surprising that a settled side couldn't be put out until mid-February.
Since then, we've at last looked a team, and the quality of our passing game has improved markedly.
Parkinsella must at least take the credit for that, however grudgingly it's given.
There's a fascinating comment by Red God in another thread that I thought I would repeat here.
What do Norwich, Southampton and Charlton have in common, apart from relegaton? Well Red God observes that ''all three changed managers during the course of the season,promoted from within without improving results.''
So that rules Kinsella out of the succesion, I would say!
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Since then, we've at last looked a team, and the quality of our passing game has improved markedly.
Parkinsella must at least take the credit for that, however grudgingly it's given.
Definitely has to have played some part. Remember with Pardew here, we hoofed it up to Iwelumo and that was with players like ZZ and Sam in the team.
It would have been interesting to see our five man midfield with Semedo in the middle and Zheng or Shelvey. Wonder if it might have made a difference defensively, even if we were slightly weaker going forward.
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]There's a fascinating comment by Red God in another thread that I thought I would repeat here.
What do Norwich, Southampton and Charlton have in common, apart from relegaton? Well Red God observes that ''all three changed managers during the course of the season,promoted from within without improving results.''
So that rules Kinsella out of the succesion, I would say!
Will be interesting to see what Norwich and Southampton do compared to us, and then how our seasons go.
"Somebody posted that the players seem to back Parky. This is really interesting but I need to know more. Why do they back him? What does he do well that Pardew didn't? This could really help us. "
This has intrigued me as well and I would agree that it is relevant. Parky has said that there was a lot that was wrong and patience is needed. Presumably the board need this kind of information if they are to make informed judgements, yet, from those few I spoke to, the board appears not to have any contact with the players. I had rather imagined that they would have been called in one by one to give their views in strict anonymity, as it is a pretty widespread and accepted business practice. I do wonder, just how knowledgeable is the board?
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]I'm not defending Pardew - I came to loathe him and what he did to our club as much as you clearly do. But with the greatest respect, there are enough reasons to dislike him without rewriting history.
Nigel, I really don't want to bat this about because it doesn't really add too much to the debate but from the figures above Weaver played all the games, so did Bailey when he arrived and Hudson (other then when he was suspended). Other than that he chopped and changed to some extent, some enforced and some not. Whereas Parky has in recent games, gone for a completely settled team, changing only the Striker.
Anyway, lets move on, the stat from the other thread you quote is really interesting. I'm not sure where it leaves us other than it would suggest, either all three were already doomed by the time the changes were made, or the hapless replacements were just not up to it! Hmmm.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Someone posted much earlier in this thread that Parky had been lucky with injuries. Because of injury, Raconplayed just 3 games by February. ZZplayed only 105 minutes by mid March
Effective at the start of the season,Fortuneplayed only a handful of games between 2 lengthy spells of injury, Grayplayed on and off despite family trauma, but had been carrying serious injury since pre-season. Semedo, pretty dependable at either RB or CM, missed entire 2nd half of the season
Coupled to the fact thatBaileyhad completely lost his way before February Weaver's form dipped, and was replaced for the entire 2nd half of season by a rookie keeper, inconsistant to begin with. Samhad a confidence crisis. Ambrose, recovering from major surgery, then shunted off to Ipswich, had absolutely no impact on his return. Varney, despite loss of form, was still a thorn in the side of opponents but sold to pay off Pardew Bouazza, our quality player and wild card was recalled in January, with no replacement.
Dependable loans in Murty and McEverley were prematurely curtailed by injury.
Others came and went with minimal impact.
Just which quality players exactly were willing to sign a full contract at a bottom of the table club in January?
Burton, Spring,, that's who. The list was not exactly as long as your arm, and even so, the finance was not there.
These are just a those instances that come quickly to mind. It's not surprising that a settled side couldn't be put out until mid-February.
Since then, we've at last looked a team, and the quality of our passing game has improved markedly.
Parkinsella must at least take the credit for that, however grudgingly it's given.
QED Oggy, whatever that means? By 'eck there's some Anoraks amongst us Lifers eh?
Parky never said "Shelvey and ZZ can't play together"
He said they couldn't play together in MIDFIELD and it is as clear as day that they haven't other than at the end of one game when some subs had been made
Call it 4 -5 - 1 or 4-1-1 but Shelvey is clearly playing in the hole behind the striker with Racon and ZZ in midfield behind him.
The board have said they would review Parkinson's decision at the end of the season. That time is now here. Let's wait to hear what they have to say or are we all so impatient that we can't wait a few days or weeks.
What Oggy said but I'm afraid that some won't find room to praise Parkinsella on anything.
The world is not black and white. Good people like Richard Murray makes bad mistakes, some managers work at one club and not another EG Clough at Brighton and Leeds, some managers learn over time and improve, others get lucky, Events turn out differently than predicted.
Hey, that's the real world.
In the morning I will be sober, at work and we will all still be alive, Darwin willing, but Charlton will still be in League one. The world will continue to turn.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Let's wait to hear what they have to say or are we all so impatient that we can't wait a few days or weeks.
well two comments to that, Henry.
One, they better get on with it. Its not as if the question suddenly cropped up. Days rather than weeks, if you please.
Two, I for one have been given a lot of food for thought from this thread, especially from those who, unlike me, are convinced he should stay. For that reason everyone who has taken part in this will be able to react in a more rounded mature way than if they had not been here. I say keep it coming, right up to the moment of decision.
And BTW, this is a much better discussion than on the mailing list, simply because many more people are participating.
[cite]Posted By: PragueAddick[/cite] especially from those who, unlike me, are convinced he should stay.
I've not read too many who are convinced on that point. People have have put up arguments for why there are reasons worth considering for him staying, but i think 'they' are more seeking to provide balance to the debate and to show that it isn't a straight forward black / white decision.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]I've not read too many who are convinced on that point.
Sure, you are right, but then few are as convinced as American Addick that he has to go. I'm not. The feeling is, we are all wandering around in the dark without a compass, whereas in the past I always felt Richard Murray provided the compass. But that's why this place is so valuable. Without it I'd feel very lonely in my concerns. In fact just like in 1988 when i used to travel from Surbiton to Croydon to watch something called "Charlton", before someone shoved a piece of paper in my hand with the title "Voice of the Valley"....
Yes, the best read on the forum in some time - really thoughtful and thought-prvoking stuff.
Just to set the record straight re. Parky's now infamous comment re. ZZ and Shelvey replicating each other: -
There was no mention of positions and it was said following the Watford game, which marked the return of ZZ for the first time since October to the bench. Shelvey, who'd had a pretty poor game four days earlier v Doncaster , was not only dropped from the starting XI but didn''t even make the bench.
When asked to explain, Parkinson said this:
"To put Jonjo on the bench, as well as Zizi, would be almost a case of replication with two players who do similar roles."
The next game v Reading, ZZ was promoted to the starting XI and Shelvey was again left out of the 16, to widespread consternation on this forum. The following game v Wolves, Shelvey was back in the 16 for the first time in three matches, replacing ZZ from the bench with a couple of minutes to go. The first time they started together was v Preston, when it was ZZ who played just behind Kandol and Shelvey featured behind him in a midfield that also included Bailey, Racon and Ambrose.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]I've not read too many who are convinced on that point.
Sure, you are right, but then few are as convinced as American Addick that he has to go. I'm not. The feeling is, we are all wandering around in the dark without a compass, whereas in the past I always felt Richard Murray provided the compass. But that's why this place is so valuable. Without it I'd feel very lonely in my concerns. In fact just like in 1988 when i used to travel from Surbiton to Croydon to watch something called "Charlton", before someone shoved a piece of paper in my hand with the title "Voice of the Valley"....
PA ... see the light. Parky Out!
Charlton deserve someone that can take the club forward, and that isn't Parky, nice guy that he may be.
As American football coach Bill Parcells always says, "you are what you are." And what you are is your record. You can consider all of the variables that you want, but the bottom line is what your tenure has achieved or failed to achieve.
Parkinson's record as Pardew's No. 2, as caretaker and as 'permanent' manager screams NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
How can anyone settle for that?
Charlton deserve a manager that can give us some hope. Not one that fills us with dispair, and presided over the worst stretch in club history. The slate needs to be cleaned.
[cite]Posted By: PragueAddick[/cite]especially from those who, unlike me, are convinced he should stay.
I've not read too many who are convinced on that point. People have have put up arguments for why there are reasons worth considering for him staying, but i think 'they' are more seeking to provide balance to the debate and to show that it isn't a straight forward black / white decision.
That's how it is for me.
I'm not against him going if we know we're going to get a good manager.
I don't agree that he has done nothing good at all, and shouldn't even be considered. As has been said plenty of times, it's not as straight forward as it would seem. Massive decision for the board and one I'd imagine they've been thinking about for a while and won't rush, although it must be sorted out soon. We haven't got the money that say Ipswich have to get rid of him and bring in someone like Roy Keane.
Certainly no point of getting rid of him if we're only going to appoint Kinsella or even Damien Matthew, or another equally inexperienced and unproven manager. I don't think we will, but I've seen it suggested.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]Flipping the question misses the point. Phil Parkinson should not be retained simply because the Club fails to identify anyone better.
So we should sack him because we don't think he's any good, and then worry about whether we can appoint someone better? That's a teency bit short-sighted don't you think?
For the record, it's clear that we have to look to the lower leagues (including Scotland and maybe elsewhere) and use our 'big club' status to try to attract someone with a decent record and with ambition. We have to find the next Darren Ferguson or Nigel Clough ........... managers with enough evidence of their capability and with clear aspirations to progress to the top level. I could see both of those in the Premier League in a few years time and, while neither of them is appropriate for us at this time, a review of other clubs doing well over the last couple of seasons and with ambitious managers with decent principles will throw up the names that you seek.
But our "big club" status isn't going to do us a vast amount of good if we've got no money to back it up with. Ambitious managers doing a good job in the lower leagues are going to have clubs that want to retain them, and who will require compensation to release them from their contracts. So that'd take another chunk out of our already depleted budget for next year, in addition to paying off Parky.
As far as I'm concerned, if we're going to replace Parky, we need to find someone who is
a) going to do a better job than he would at League One and Championship level (worrying about getting promoted to and succeeding in the Prem is putting the cart before the horse in a major way).
b) willing to come and work within the limitations of our reduced circumstances
c) affordable (including wages and any compensation to their current club if necessary)
Parkinson isn't the greatest manager in the world it's true, but I've yet to see anyone suggest someone who fits all three criteria above, so getting rid of him means gambling a whole wad of money that we really can't afford on someone who may be no better. Things may not have been improving as fast as we'd like, but they were improving, and if the players are behind Parky then going for stability may actually be a better option than more upheaval.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]I've not read too many who are convinced on that point.
Sure, you are right, but then few are as convinced as American Addick that he has to go. I'm not. The feeling is, we are all wandering around in the dark without a compass, whereas in the past I always felt Richard Murray provided the compass. But that's why this place is so valuable. Without it I'd feel very lonely in my concerns. In fact just like in 1988 when i used to travel from Surbiton to Croydon to watch something called "Charlton", before someone shoved a piece of paper in my hand with the title "Voice of the Valley"....
I have to agree with this feeling of a lack of direction currently at The Valley. I for one am looking forward to the "end of season review" as I hope it at least puts to bed a lot of the uncertainty about our immediate future. We as Charlton fans were always kept abreast of what the board had in mind with ground development and practically everything else. I now no longer feel that is the case and my worry is that the board don`t have a medium turn plan and worried further by this statement that next year is very much a one season plan. Thats fine IF it works but looks ridiculous if not. Guess we must wait and see.
[cite]Posted By: American_Addick[/cite]As American football coach Bill Parcells always says, "you are what you are." And what you are is your record. You can consider all of the variables that you want, but the bottom line is what your tenure has achieved or failed to achieve.
Parkinson's record as Pardew's No. 2, as caretaker and as 'permanent' manager screams NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
How can anyone settle for that?
Its a great line Doug but does that mean its right? Is it only in the States that people cannot make mistakes, learn from them and be better for the experience and grow? That's not my understanding. DId Thomas Edison give up when the first light bulb filliment didn't work, or did he try different things until he found the right combination of durability, conductivity, and lustre? I accept Parkys record through the first 10 games or so was poor and maybe he should have gone then but are we really saying that he cannot ever be better than his failure during this time?
I think you are taking an absolutist stance here and ignoring any improvement or the parless state of team affairs when he took over.
In this instant a bloke has come in to a manage a load of blokes expecting to have been promoted the year before, expecting to challenge this season, floored by a failed takeover bid which resulted in free fall! The charismatic manager is sacked and the world is falling apart. He inherits an unbalanced squad which is awash with self-pity and gradually turns it to one with self-belief. A team which couldn't string two passes togther, now passes the ball around the opposition in neat triangles and reverse balls. He has found a decent team and I am convinced, were the season to have started 10 games ago, come the end of the season, his team would be up their challenging for a promotion spot, so good has some of the play been in recent games.
[cite]Posted By: American_Addick[/cite]As American football coach Bill Parcells always says, "you are what you are." And what you are is your record. You can consider all of the variables that you want, but the bottom line is what your tenure has achieved or failed to achieve.
Parkinson's record as Pardew's No. 2, as caretaker and as 'permanent' manager screams NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
How can anyone settle for that?
Its a great line Doug but does that mean its right? Is it only in the States that people cannot make mistakes, learn from them and be better for the experience and grow? That's not my understanding. DId Thomas Edison give up when the first light bulb filliment didn't work, or did he try different things until he found the right combination of durability, conductivity, and lustre? I accept Parkys record through the first 10 games or so was poor and maybe he should have gone then but are we really saying that he cannot ever be better than his failure during this time?
I think you are taking an absolutist stance here and ignoring any improvement or the parless state of team affairs when he took over.
In this instant a bloke has come in to a manage a load of blokes expecting to have been promoted the year before, expecting to challenge this season, floored by a failed takeover bid which resulted in free fall! The charismatic manager is sacked and the world is falling apart. He inherits an unbalanced squad which is awash with self-pity and gradually turns it to one with self-belief. A team which couldn't string two passes togther, now passes the ball around the opposition in neat triangles and reverse balls. He has found a decent team and I am convinced, were the season to have started 10 games ago, come the end of the season, his team would be up their challenging for a promotion spot, so good has some of the play been in recent games.
I think Parkinson's record speaks for itself. Difficult circumstances? Fine. But 4 wins in 28 games is failure no matter how you analyse it.
I am just amazed that people are willing to put aside his tenure as Pardont's No. 2, and his own record in-charge, and feel some hope based on meaningless, pressure-less games following the certainty of relegation ... that still didn't produce many victories. How did the team perform, how did Parky manage, when the games meant something?
If you want to throw in his abject failure at Hull and his success at Colchester, it still doesn't change his tenure at Charlton.
I am taking an absolute stand on this because the evidence is so overwhelming that he is not the one to take this club forward.
Ask yourself this question ... would any other Football League club consider hiring Parky as permanent manager right now, given his record?
I don't believe they would, and think Charlton need a clean slate and deserve better after the season that was just experienced.
To me Phil Parkinson has shown up weak in many areas, Defensivly we are still vunerable at corners freekicks and crosses not a good start.
We do not have the manager to motivate a team into winning key matches (bar Palace) Donny and Watford were the foundations on which we were to build, We couldnt live with Donny but how the hell could we not even compete with them for fight and spirit.
THere seems to be many things rotten at our club and IMO they all need to be addressed, I am not convinced that there is cohesion between the Mgt and Players and i am not Convinced that Cohesion is there between Board and Chairman or even between themselves.
Phil Parkinsons record is so poor yet i am reading here that some feel it needs to extended and him given the chance to show us all taht he can do it, sorry but to me that is cack if Phil had come in and got us close to the others and just failed at the last then i could understand it but he never he took us further and further away from safety resulting in the end to 12 points from safety.
Although i have no anomosity against the man i think he has handled himself fine in the circumstances I no longer want to see him try to put it right, Is 5months long enough in any other situation i would say no it is not in this instance i will state i have seen enough to tell me taht PP can not manage at 2nd division level and therfore i do not want him at our club.
I know we are in the 3rd Division now but what is the point of sacking him if he gets us promoted which we would have to do.
It is time for a change top to bottom i hope there is some clear sky on our horizon and we get some new impetus because if we dont we will be fecked again this forthcoming season mainly due to the fact PP will remain cos we have no cash
Without wishing to repeat these things all over again, where is the improvement, based on results? Let's look at his wins.
Crystal Palace 1-0 Local derby against an uninspied Palace team
Plymouth Argyle 2-0 Hitherto, the worst playing side to visit. League table suggests theyare not a great side.
Southampton 3-2. Played a Southampton side crushed by the news of administration and possible extinction. Relegated with us.
Norwich 4-2. A great result with younger players finally breaking through. Our relegation allowed the team to play with freedom against a dire side. Relegated with us.
These were the ONLY wins in Parky's reign of 28 games.
Draws snatched from the jaws of victory - Cardiff, Blackpool and several others.
Unacceptable home defeats unthought of at the beginning of the season - Watford, Doncaster Rovers.
Countless 'gritty' bore draws of 0-0
Do the Parky fans not feel that another manager would have achieved more than this miserable run ending in relegation 13 points adrift?
I admit to wanting a change and a fresh start, one thing that frustrates me about Parkinson (and other managers) is the idea that they are hamstrung by the playing staff they have, and they need to get others in to change the situation ('we need more firepower up front', 'we need loans in')....yeah, every manager could bemoan not having Messi or Drogba and say if they did results would improve. My attitude is don't sit around moaning about what isn't there, but make the most of the resources you have, deploy players effectively, make a little go a long way, try stuff, experiment if you have to (Holland at centre half...experiment or necessity?), but do something about problems, don't shrug and say the situation is impossible....not my fault guv....this is the message I get from Parkinson.....if only I had more....
I think the debate has been healhily discussed and dissected. I agree with a lot that has been said by both sides.
I then look at Parky's record and our league position and his previous role at Hull and his success at Colchester.
We are better than a yo-you Division 2 and Division 3 team and therefore I think we need a sweeping change - I want somebody other fans hate, as they know he's a winner and he'll get us where we want to be.
It's not for me to decide who - so let's hope the board get it right, 5th time of asking.
Great debate and now we really do need for the board to get this review done and dusted asap. I want to know if PP is the man to manage us next season and I feel sure PP feels the same.
SOME of the people firmly against Parky staying haven't been to enough games to decide surely? No offence but your names are American, Prague and Denmark.
I accept that the results themselves are poo, but there is a better feel about the team now and I stand by what i've said many a time now.
[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite] My attitude is don't sit around moaning about what isn't there, but make the most of the resources you have, deploy players effectively, make a little go a long way, try stuff, experiment if you have to (Holland at centre half...experiment or necessity?), but do something about problems, don't shrug and say the situation is impossible....not my fault guv....this is the message I get from Parkinson.....if only I had more....
I thought this was exactly what Parky has done, Seth .... ?
Comments
Racon played just 3 games by February.
ZZ played only 105 minutes by mid March
Effective at the start of the season, Fortune played only a handful of games between 2 lengthy spells of injury,
Gray played on and off despite family trauma, but had been carrying serious injury since pre-season.
Semedo, pretty dependable at either RB or CM, missed entire 2nd half of the season
Coupled to the fact that Bailey had completely lost his way before February
Weaver's form dipped, and was replaced for the entire 2nd half of season by a rookie keeper, inconsistant to begin with.
Sam had a confidence crisis.
Ambrose, recovering from major surgery, then shunted off to Ipswich, had absolutely no impact on his return.
Varney, despite loss of form, was still a thorn in the side of opponents but sold to pay off Pardew
Bouazza, our quality player and wild card was recalled in January, with no replacement.
Dependable loans in Murty and McEverley were prematurely curtailed by injury.
Others came and went with minimal impact.
Just which quality players exactly were willing to sign a full contract at a bottom of the table club in January?
Burton, Spring,, that's who. The list was not exactly as long as your arm, and even so, the finance was not there.
These are just a those instances that come quickly to mind.
It's not surprising that a settled side couldn't be put out until mid-February.
Since then, we've at last looked a team, and the quality of our passing game has improved markedly.
Parkinsella must at least take the credit for that, however grudgingly it's given.
What do Norwich, Southampton and Charlton have in common, apart from relegaton? Well Red God observes that ''all three changed managers during the course of the season,promoted from within without improving results.''
So that rules Kinsella out of the succesion, I would say!
Definitely has to have played some part. Remember with Pardew here, we hoofed it up to Iwelumo and that was with players like ZZ and Sam in the team.
It would have been interesting to see our five man midfield with Semedo in the middle and Zheng or Shelvey. Wonder if it might have made a difference defensively, even if we were slightly weaker going forward.
Will be interesting to see what Norwich and Southampton do compared to us, and then how our seasons go.
This has intrigued me as well and I would agree that it is relevant. Parky has said that there was a lot that was wrong and patience is needed. Presumably the board need this kind of information if they are to make informed judgements, yet, from those few I spoke to, the board appears not to have any contact with the players. I had rather imagined that they would have been called in one by one to give their views in strict anonymity, as it is a pretty widespread and accepted business practice. I do wonder, just how knowledgeable is the board?
Nigel, I really don't want to bat this about because it doesn't really add too much to the debate but from the figures above Weaver played all the games, so did Bailey when he arrived and Hudson (other then when he was suspended). Other than that he chopped and changed to some extent, some enforced and some not. Whereas Parky has in recent games, gone for a completely settled team, changing only the Striker.
Anyway, lets move on, the stat from the other thread you quote is really interesting. I'm not sure where it leaves us other than it would suggest, either all three were already doomed by the time the changes were made, or the hapless replacements were just not up to it! Hmmm.
QED Oggy, whatever that means? By 'eck there's some Anoraks amongst us Lifers eh?
He said they couldn't play together in MIDFIELD and it is as clear as day that they haven't other than at the end of one game when some subs had been made
Call it 4 -5 - 1 or 4-1-1 but Shelvey is clearly playing in the hole behind the striker with Racon and ZZ in midfield behind him.
The board have said they would review Parkinson's decision at the end of the season. That time is now here. Let's wait to hear what they have to say or are we all so impatient that we can't wait a few days or weeks.
The world is not black and white. Good people like Richard Murray makes bad mistakes, some managers work at one club and not another EG Clough at Brighton and Leeds, some managers learn over time and improve, others get lucky, Events turn out differently than predicted.
Hey, that's the real world.
In the morning I will be sober, at work and we will all still be alive, Darwin willing, but Charlton will still be in League one. The world will continue to turn.
Live, love, laugh and be happy everyone.
well two comments to that, Henry.
One, they better get on with it. Its not as if the question suddenly cropped up. Days rather than weeks, if you please.
Two, I for one have been given a lot of food for thought from this thread, especially from those who, unlike me, are convinced he should stay. For that reason everyone who has taken part in this will be able to react in a more rounded mature way than if they had not been here. I say keep it coming, right up to the moment of decision.
And BTW, this is a much better discussion than on the mailing list, simply because many more people are participating.
I've not read too many who are convinced on that point. People have have put up arguments for why there are reasons worth considering for him staying, but i think 'they' are more seeking to provide balance to the debate and to show that it isn't a straight forward black / white decision.
Sure, you are right, but then few are as convinced as American Addick that he has to go. I'm not. The feeling is, we are all wandering around in the dark without a compass, whereas in the past I always felt Richard Murray provided the compass. But that's why this place is so valuable. Without it I'd feel very lonely in my concerns. In fact just like in 1988 when i used to travel from Surbiton to Croydon to watch something called "Charlton", before someone shoved a piece of paper in my hand with the title "Voice of the Valley"....
Just to set the record straight re. Parky's now infamous comment re. ZZ and Shelvey replicating each other: -
There was no mention of positions and it was said following the Watford game, which marked the return of ZZ for the first time since October to the bench. Shelvey, who'd had a pretty poor game four days earlier v Doncaster , was not only dropped from the starting XI but didn''t even make the bench.
When asked to explain, Parkinson said this:
"To put Jonjo on the bench, as well as Zizi, would be almost a case of replication with two players who do similar roles."
The next game v Reading, ZZ was promoted to the starting XI and Shelvey was again left out of the 16, to widespread consternation on this forum. The following game v Wolves, Shelvey was back in the 16 for the first time in three matches, replacing ZZ from the bench with a couple of minutes to go. The first time they started together was v Preston, when it was ZZ who played just behind Kandol and Shelvey featured behind him in a midfield that also included Bailey, Racon and Ambrose.
PA ... see the light.
Parky Out!
Charlton deserve someone that can take the club forward, and that isn't Parky, nice guy that he may be.
As American football coach Bill Parcells always says, "you are what you are." And what you are is your record. You can consider all of the variables that you want, but the bottom line is what your tenure has achieved or failed to achieve.
Parkinson's record as Pardew's No. 2, as caretaker and as 'permanent' manager screams NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
How can anyone settle for that?
Charlton deserve a manager that can give us some hope. Not one that fills us with dispair, and presided over the worst stretch in club history. The slate needs to be cleaned.
That's how it is for me.
I'm not against him going if we know we're going to get a good manager.
I don't agree that he has done nothing good at all, and shouldn't even be considered. As has been said plenty of times, it's not as straight forward as it would seem. Massive decision for the board and one I'd imagine they've been thinking about for a while and won't rush, although it must be sorted out soon. We haven't got the money that say Ipswich have to get rid of him and bring in someone like Roy Keane.
Certainly no point of getting rid of him if we're only going to appoint Kinsella or even Damien Matthew, or another equally inexperienced and unproven manager. I don't think we will, but I've seen it suggested.
But our "big club" status isn't going to do us a vast amount of good if we've got no money to back it up with. Ambitious managers doing a good job in the lower leagues are going to have clubs that want to retain them, and who will require compensation to release them from their contracts. So that'd take another chunk out of our already depleted budget for next year, in addition to paying off Parky.
As far as I'm concerned, if we're going to replace Parky, we need to find someone who is
a) going to do a better job than he would at League One and Championship level (worrying about getting promoted to and succeeding in the Prem is putting the cart before the horse in a major way).
b) willing to come and work within the limitations of our reduced circumstances
c) affordable (including wages and any compensation to their current club if necessary)
Parkinson isn't the greatest manager in the world it's true, but I've yet to see anyone suggest someone who fits all three criteria above, so getting rid of him means gambling a whole wad of money that we really can't afford on someone who may be no better. Things may not have been improving as fast as we'd like, but they were improving, and if the players are behind Parky then going for stability may actually be a better option than more upheaval.
I have to agree with this feeling of a lack of direction currently at The Valley. I for one am looking forward to the "end of season review" as I hope it at least puts to bed a lot of the uncertainty about our immediate future. We as Charlton fans were always kept abreast of what the board had in mind with ground development and practically everything else. I now no longer feel that is the case and my worry is that the board don`t have a medium turn plan and worried further by this statement that next year is very much a one season plan. Thats fine IF it works but looks ridiculous if not. Guess we must wait and see.
Its a great line Doug but does that mean its right? Is it only in the States that people cannot make mistakes, learn from them and be better for the experience and grow? That's not my understanding. DId Thomas Edison give up when the first light bulb filliment didn't work, or did he try different things until he found the right combination of durability, conductivity, and lustre? I accept Parkys record through the first 10 games or so was poor and maybe he should have gone then but are we really saying that he cannot ever be better than his failure during this time?
I think you are taking an absolutist stance here and ignoring any improvement or the parless state of team affairs when he took over.
In this instant a bloke has come in to a manage a load of blokes expecting to have been promoted the year before, expecting to challenge this season, floored by a failed takeover bid which resulted in free fall! The charismatic manager is sacked and the world is falling apart. He inherits an unbalanced squad which is awash with self-pity and gradually turns it to one with self-belief. A team which couldn't string two passes togther, now passes the ball around the opposition in neat triangles and reverse balls. He has found a decent team and I am convinced, were the season to have started 10 games ago, come the end of the season, his team would be up their challenging for a promotion spot, so good has some of the play been in recent games.
I think Parkinson's record speaks for itself. Difficult circumstances? Fine. But 4 wins in 28 games is failure no matter how you analyse it.
I am just amazed that people are willing to put aside his tenure as Pardont's No. 2, and his own record in-charge, and feel some hope based on meaningless, pressure-less games following the certainty of relegation ... that still didn't produce many victories. How did the team perform, how did Parky manage, when the games meant something?
If you want to throw in his abject failure at Hull and his success at Colchester, it still doesn't change his tenure at Charlton.
I am taking an absolute stand on this because the evidence is so overwhelming that he is not the one to take this club forward.
Ask yourself this question ... would any other Football League club consider hiring Parky as permanent manager right now, given his record?
I don't believe they would, and think Charlton need a clean slate and deserve better after the season that was just experienced.
We do not have the manager to motivate a team into winning key matches (bar Palace) Donny and Watford were the foundations on which we were to build, We couldnt live with Donny but how the hell could we not even compete with them for fight and spirit.
THere seems to be many things rotten at our club and IMO they all need to be addressed, I am not convinced that there is cohesion between the Mgt and Players and i am not Convinced that Cohesion is there between Board and Chairman or even between themselves.
Phil Parkinsons record is so poor yet i am reading here that some feel it needs to extended and him given the chance to show us all taht he can do it, sorry but to me that is cack if Phil had come in and got us close to the others and just failed at the last then i could understand it but he never he took us further and further away from safety resulting in the end to 12 points from safety.
Although i have no anomosity against the man i think he has handled himself fine in the circumstances I no longer want to see him try to put it right, Is 5months long enough in any other situation i would say no it is not in this instance i will state i have seen enough to tell me taht PP can not manage at 2nd division level and therfore i do not want him at our club.
I know we are in the 3rd Division now but what is the point of sacking him if he gets us promoted which we would have to do.
It is time for a change top to bottom i hope there is some clear sky on our horizon and we get some new impetus because if we dont we will be fecked again this forthcoming season mainly due to the fact PP will remain cos we have no cash
Crystal Palace 1-0 Local derby against an uninspied Palace team
Plymouth Argyle 2-0 Hitherto, the worst playing side to visit. League table suggests theyare not a great side.
Southampton 3-2. Played a Southampton side crushed by the news of administration and possible extinction. Relegated with us.
Norwich 4-2. A great result with younger players finally breaking through. Our relegation allowed the team to play with freedom against a dire side. Relegated with us.
These were the ONLY wins in Parky's reign of 28 games.
Draws snatched from the jaws of victory - Cardiff, Blackpool and several others.
Unacceptable home defeats unthought of at the beginning of the season - Watford, Doncaster Rovers.
Countless 'gritty' bore draws of 0-0
Do the Parky fans not feel that another manager would have achieved more than this miserable run ending in relegation 13 points adrift?
Sure you dont want unrest but I dont see 'liking the manager' as a prerequisite for a successful team.
I reckon this thread pretty much replicates the Board view with some clear fors and againsts and a lot of splinters in the middle.
We of course dont have all the info but whatever decision is made I will:-
1) Be grateful I didnt have to make it
2) Support the decision 100% and get behind my team next year when they will need us as much as any season.
Now sod football. Off to Canterbury for a day's cricket in the sun v Glamorgan!
Sun ....????
It's raining here in Sunny Cornwall.
I then look at Parky's record and our league position and his previous role at Hull and his success at Colchester.
We are better than a yo-you Division 2 and Division 3 team and therefore I think we need a sweeping change - I want somebody other fans hate, as they know he's a winner and he'll get us where we want to be.
It's not for me to decide who - so let's hope the board get it right, 5th time of asking.
BUT
SOME of the people firmly against Parky staying haven't been to enough games to decide surely? No offence but your names are American, Prague and Denmark.
I accept that the results themselves are poo, but there is a better feel about the team now and I stand by what i've said many a time now.
Money + Good Manager = Bye bye Parky
No money = Parky
I thought this was exactly what Parky has done, Seth .... ?