Only at CAFC can you find supporters prepared to calmly argue the merits of a manager who has largely presided over the relegation and the worst season on record. Anywhere else and his head would be on a pole outside the club shop, but on here and elsewhere fans are prepared to see the bigger picture. Credit to us this year if not the club.
That is, very much, why we would be attractive to 'most' managers and, frankly we deserved better than this.
I respect every persons view on this matter, but I do wonder if people have been watching the same 30 odd games or so I have. There is only one decision for me & it does not involve him staying.
The club does not have the best record in appointing managers and has cost us dearly including two relegations in three seasons, because bad/wrong decisions were made. For such an important decision, the club must be sure with help if needed in the form of a Curbs or Trevor Brooking type consultant , to make the right decision. I want the next manager to be integral to the club's long term success over the long term.
A bad manager who knows his players, how they train etc, doesn't make them the best candidate for manager.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]There has been much said on this site about the failure of our strikers and of our inability to create enough chances and Parkinsons negative tactics of playing more often than not 4 - 5 - 1. However, 9 teams in The Championship this season scored less goals than we did but no other team conceded more than our 74. The priority imho for Parkinson when he took the helm should always have been to get things right at the back first and I am sorry to say I have seen precsious little evidence of enough quality defensive coaching to give me hope for the future. Time after time we give away simple goals that should be avoided. I am I admit now a fence sitter regarding PP but the evidence is hard to ignore.
It doesn't help that we only have 2 of our own centre backs, one of them injured and a third on loan. We only have one right back that was realistically going to play, and he's on loan. Left back Youga without confidence is terrible and Basey gets beaten by pace.
Although it won't solve the problem completely, having real competition for places will at least help. Curbishley used to have four if not five centre backs and at least four full backs. Five or six defenders and a few youngsters as back up isn't enough.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]There has been much said on this site about the failure of our strikers and of our inability to create enough chances and Parkinsons negative tactics of playing more often than not 4 - 5 - 1. However, 9 teams in The Championship this season scored less goals than we did but no other team conceded more than our 74. The priority imho for Parkinson when he took the helm should always have been to get things right at the back first and I am sorry to say I have seen precsious little evidence of enough quality defensive coaching to give me hope for the future. Time after time we give away simple goals that should be avoided. I am I admit now a fence sitter regarding PP but the evidence is hard to ignore.
It doesn't help that we only have 2 of our own centre backs, one of them injured and a third on loan. We only have one right back that was realistically going to play, and he's on loan. Left back Youga without confidence is terrible and Basey gets beaten by pace.
Although it won't solve the problem completely, having real competition for places will at least help. Curbishley used to have four if not five centre backs and at least four full backs. Five or six defenders and a few youngsters as back up isn't enough.
Agreed ...in part at least. The centre backs we have had have not been rookies but seasoned pros and our full backs also. Getting decent pros playing as a unit should not be beyond our expectations of our manager I feel.
sorry 2 all who have made an argument for Parky but we finished 13 yes THIRTEEN points from staying up -- how in Gods name is that an arguemnet for keeping him ?
No one has ever told me what this guy did for two years as Pardews number two ? we slag the Danish teenager off for taking his dosh and not doing F all but WHAT DID PARKINSON DO for two years ?
Are we to have another cold eye review and end up coping out ?
What a great thread this continues to be. I've been persuaded in different directions twice more since I last posted!
What I am convinced about is that , as Led Addicks implies, contrary to the 'blame the fans' comments which ocassionally surface on here, we actually have the most loyal, patient, reasonable and fair-to-a-fault fans in football.
One of the reasons we ended up 13 points adrift when Parkisnon inherited a team that was only two points adrift, is his failure to win two consecutive games. I know that started under Pardew, but since Christmas I think every other relegation threatened team put together two or more wins on the spin. When you get six points inside eight days, it has the most dramatic impact both on morale and on the league table.
We haven't managed it since early December 2007. And it has to be pointd out that Parkisnon has been employed by the club as number one or two for the entirety of that 18 month period.
BTW, can any of the statisticians tell us if that is the longest spell without back to back wins in the club's history : another unwelcome record to add to our record-breaking season, perhaps?
Interesting AFKA makes the comment about senior keeper being ousted, one main think Parky hasn't resolved is to stop us conceding goals, I wonder how his record against Pardew compares? Of course he also hasn't resolved our full back problems either. I think Bailey was similar under both regimes though?
Just about every post on here is considered and well thought out - a brilliant and absorbing read.
Sure, the statistics are grim reading, and even though the team performances have improved as key players returned from long term injury, the results do tell thir part of the story.
But it's not always about bald statistics, is it ?
AFKA made the point that at our level now, current finances dictate what we can do - and can't do.
So that must be taken into account.
Then KB LittleSis' heartwarming post, tells in her own experience of talking to many of the players at the POTY, it seems clear that these players have good respect for Parky, they are behinnd him - and he does have the dressing room.
Six weeeks ago, I was definitely in the Parky OUT camp,
Today, I'm not so sure.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]sorry 2 all who have made an argument for Parky but we finished 13 yes THIRTEEN points from staying up -- how in Gods name is that an arguemnet for keeping him ?
It's not an argument for keeping him. No one is using it as an argument for keeping him.
It's reasons like that list on the other page, bringing Racon into the team, getting Nick Davies in to improve fitness, playing 4-5-1 to get the best out of what we have, helping Sam improve, getting Youga, Bailey and Wagstaff's confidence back.
On results yes fair enough he has to go, but it's just not as simple as that.
Someone suggested 'just get a new manager in, doesn't matter if he's inexperienced'. I'm not against a new manager coming in, but they must be a clear improvement over Parkinson, they must have experience of League One and together with his staff know the sort of players we need to bring in. It's not a case of get in someone because things can't get any worse.
There seems to be this idea that a new manager will come in, fresh ideas, new staff, new players, change the club and within 10 games we'll be flying at the top of the league. If Parkinson goes replacing him with the right manager is as big a decision for the board as it was for replacing Curbs. If they get it wrong we'll be mid table at best, they'll then have to replace him again. It's easy to say there are good managers out there that want the job and are better than Parkinson, but we're not the ones that have to make the decision. The board will be heavily criticized and put the club in even more trouble if they get it wrong.
That's not a reason for keeping Parkinson, just saying it's not as simple as get someone in just to freshen things up. Get it wrong and we could end up like Bradford, going from the Prem to League Two.
The one point that hasn't been raised is whether people feel that a football manager can accurately be judged after just 5 months.
And not five months where they have had pre-season to train and assemble their squad. Nowadays with the internet, media, society etc. Everything has become so short-term over the last five years, particularly in football. Stability has become a dissapearing trait.
Whether he has got what it takes or not, i'm not convinced we can fully judge until about october / november, when he would have had nearly a year in the job, a full pre-season and a squad and style of play to call his own.
The one thing in football that always brings those things forward is whether a manager loses the dressing room. It can happen to inexperienced ones (Les Reed) and the very best (Brian Clough). When that happens there is rarely any going back. Parkinson does not appear to have lost the dressing room, despite a distressing period, and that tells us that he is either very soft and the players are enjoying an easy ride, or they are signed up to him still.
And knowing Parky and Kinsella's style, and the way Moots and others have been froze out, i don't think he has provided an easy ride.
The one thing in my mind that goes against Parky more than the overall results thing is that in the two key games of the season, Watford and Doncaster at home, the team did not bring it. And those were the games they had to.
Quote After yesterday, I completely stand by what I've said in the past few weeks: he is a good manager because he can bring the best out in the players, and given the close season to shape the squad and build fitness, I do believe he can do a job for us. He is also a sensible, intelligent guy - loved the programme notes. If it were my decision, I would stick by him. He knows the players, he know the set-up, and he knows and accepts the financial situation.
And I felt the same after pardews boys whipped Coventry, but that didnt kicl on into this season.
He has got to go, but I have no idea who to replace him with.
At the risk of being accused of stating the bleeding obvious. I am slowly, very slowly coming round to the opinion that unless the club receives new financial backing with enough money to really have an impact on things then we ought to stick with Parkinson. Should the dosh materialise and a "big fish" manager be appointed then fine. If not lets stick with PP. Can`t see my opinion on this changing on this now. How many times have I thought that !
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]No. The club is reducing costs on everything it possibly can. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of consultants, or directors of football etc, an additional expense is never going to happen now.
Reducing costs on everything it can? The club need to give me evidence of this to convince me to buy a season ticket.
As for Parkinsons achievements, pretty paltry it seems compared with other managers at other clubs, and compared with any sort of common sense approach by loads of other people.
All good points. It has taken time for the team to look like they have a style of play Parkinson wants them to play.
Compare the Derby game at home to the recent games, that game we were defensive, direct and tried to grind out a win, and it nearly worked. Now we have a bit more confidence and have been passing the ball around well at times.
If the players aren't getting an easy ride and want Parkinson to stay, he must have made changes that they are pleased about? If he had lost the dressing room then yes he must go.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]No. The club is reducing costs on everything it possibly can. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of consultants, or directors of football etc, an additional expense is never going to happen now.
Reducing costs on everything it can? The club need to give me evidence of this to convince me to buy a season ticket.
Maybe you should ask the 30 people that have been made redundant.
AFKA asked : "The one point that hasn't been raised is whether people feel that a football manager can accurately be judged after just 5 months.''
When a manager has failed to win 80-something per cent of the games in that period, then yes, that's a high enough failure rate to judge that he wasn't up to the job. Additionally so, so when he's failed in virtually all of the must win so-called six pointers.
his appointment after Janauary was the biggest cop out in many a year. everyone could see things needed changing and a fresh approach the fact he lost every game during his 'trail' is beyone me. Yes we have no money yes were destined for league one but so people have said on here we still had 40+ applicants, surely someone on that list would have taken less wages and maybe a survial bonus package. A clean sweep was needed and we didnt have the balls to do we just used the 'oh well' approach and look where its got us, yes a good win on sunday but to little to late. I think his reactions to Parky give us a wave and your gona be sacked in the summer spoke volumes. He was busy giving orders when the chanting started so didnt wave by the time the he had a chance to face the north upper they were singing sacked in the summer he made such an honest reaction as to say 'hey thats not fair' fair play to the bloke, thanks for sunday but hopefully thats his lot.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]All good points. It has taken time for the team to look like they have a style of play Parkinson wants them to play.
Compare the Derby game at home to the recent games, that game we were defensive, direct and tried to grind out a win, and it nearly worked. Now we have a bit more confidence and have been passing the ball around well at times.
If the players aren't getting an easy ride and want Parkinson to stay, he must have made changes that they are pleased about? If he had lost the dressing room then yes he must go.
Edit: That was in response to AFKA.
Were we? I thought we played ok until we got nervous in the end stages. Could have been 3 or 4 up in that game.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]All good points. It has taken time for the team to look like they have a style of play Parkinson wants them to play.
Compare the Derby game at home to the recent games, that game we were defensive, direct and tried to grind out a win, and it nearly worked.Now we have a bit more confidence and have been passing the ball around well at times.
If the players aren't getting an easy ride and want Parkinson to stay, he must have made changes that they are pleased about? If he had lost the dressing room then yes he must go.
Edit: That was in response to AFKA.
Were we? I thought we played ok until we got nervous in the end stages. Could have been 3 or 4 up in that game.
i'd say got tired in the ed stages - under pards we would have conceded at least 3 of those shots that elliott stopped!
great debate..........I seem to agree with most of the posters on here, both for and against Parky staying.
my one big problem is when we start talking about attracting players........his recoed id not great in this respect. Loanees his recoed is pretty good (Ward, Murty, McEverly and, to a certain degree, Butterfield) but on the players he has brought in permanently (Burton & Spring)then the Jury's answer has got to be GUILTY.
A last day hat trick should not disguise the failings Burton has had in front of goal and even Parky himself in the programmes notes mentions the need to beef up our firepower..........not forgetting Kandol was also his deciscion.
sorry.........carry on guys but I'm still fence sitting.
the time for a definite change of management was missed(after pardew left and even after parkys trial period) when the new impetus imo would have resulted in some results when we were still in with a small chance of staying up and that has to go down as another huge blunder for the board......
but now it's a different ball game so i'm splinters up arse ....
Comments
That is, very much, why we would be attractive to 'most' managers and, frankly we deserved better than this.
A bad manager who knows his players, how they train etc, doesn't make them the best candidate for manager.
It doesn't help that we only have 2 of our own centre backs, one of them injured and a third on loan. We only have one right back that was realistically going to play, and he's on loan. Left back Youga without confidence is terrible and Basey gets beaten by pace.
Although it won't solve the problem completely, having real competition for places will at least help. Curbishley used to have four if not five centre backs and at least four full backs. Five or six defenders and a few youngsters as back up isn't enough.
Agreed ...in part at least. The centre backs we have had have not been rookies but seasoned pros and our full backs also. Getting decent pros playing as a unit should not be beyond our expectations of our manager I feel.
No one has ever told me what this guy did for two years as Pardews number two ? we slag the Danish teenager off for taking his dosh and not doing F all but WHAT DID PARKINSON DO for two years ?
Are we to have another cold eye review and end up coping out ?
What I am convinced about is that , as Led Addicks implies, contrary to the 'blame the fans' comments which ocassionally surface on here, we actually have the most loyal, patient, reasonable and fair-to-a-fault fans in football.
One of the reasons we ended up 13 points adrift when Parkisnon inherited a team that was only two points adrift, is his failure to win two consecutive games. I know that started under Pardew, but since Christmas I think every other relegation threatened team put together two or more wins on the spin. When you get six points inside eight days, it has the most dramatic impact both on morale and on the league table.
We haven't managed it since early December 2007. And it has to be pointd out that Parkisnon has been employed by the club as number one or two for the entirety of that 18 month period.
BTW, can any of the statisticians tell us if that is the longest spell without back to back wins in the club's history : another unwelcome record to add to our record-breaking season, perhaps?
Sure, the statistics are grim reading, and even though the team performances have improved as key players returned from long term injury, the results do tell thir part of the story.
But it's not always about bald statistics, is it ?
AFKA made the point that at our level now, current finances dictate what we can do - and can't do.
So that must be taken into account.
Then KB LittleSis' heartwarming post, tells in her own experience of talking to many of the players at the POTY, it seems clear that these players have good respect for Parky, they are behinnd him - and he does have the dressing room.
Six weeeks ago, I was definitely in the Parky OUT camp,
Today, I'm not so sure.
I'll sit with the fence sitters, splinters et al.
It's not an argument for keeping him. No one is using it as an argument for keeping him.
It's reasons like that list on the other page, bringing Racon into the team, getting Nick Davies in to improve fitness, playing 4-5-1 to get the best out of what we have, helping Sam improve, getting Youga, Bailey and Wagstaff's confidence back.
On results yes fair enough he has to go, but it's just not as simple as that.
Someone suggested 'just get a new manager in, doesn't matter if he's inexperienced'. I'm not against a new manager coming in, but they must be a clear improvement over Parkinson, they must have experience of League One and together with his staff know the sort of players we need to bring in. It's not a case of get in someone because things can't get any worse.
There seems to be this idea that a new manager will come in, fresh ideas, new staff, new players, change the club and within 10 games we'll be flying at the top of the league. If Parkinson goes replacing him with the right manager is as big a decision for the board as it was for replacing Curbs. If they get it wrong we'll be mid table at best, they'll then have to replace him again. It's easy to say there are good managers out there that want the job and are better than Parkinson, but we're not the ones that have to make the decision. The board will be heavily criticized and put the club in even more trouble if they get it wrong.
That's not a reason for keeping Parkinson, just saying it's not as simple as get someone in just to freshen things up. Get it wrong and we could end up like Bradford, going from the Prem to League Two.
And not five months where they have had pre-season to train and assemble their squad. Nowadays with the internet, media, society etc. Everything has become so short-term over the last five years, particularly in football. Stability has become a dissapearing trait.
Whether he has got what it takes or not, i'm not convinced we can fully judge until about october / november, when he would have had nearly a year in the job, a full pre-season and a squad and style of play to call his own.
The one thing in football that always brings those things forward is whether a manager loses the dressing room. It can happen to inexperienced ones (Les Reed) and the very best (Brian Clough). When that happens there is rarely any going back. Parkinson does not appear to have lost the dressing room, despite a distressing period, and that tells us that he is either very soft and the players are enjoying an easy ride, or they are signed up to him still.
And knowing Parky and Kinsella's style, and the way Moots and others have been froze out, i don't think he has provided an easy ride.
The one thing in my mind that goes against Parky more than the overall results thing is that in the two key games of the season, Watford and Doncaster at home, the team did not bring it. And those were the games they had to.
And I felt the same after pardews boys whipped Coventry, but that didnt kicl on into this season.
He has got to go, but I have no idea who to replace him with.
Reducing costs on everything it can? The club need to give me evidence of this to convince me to buy a season ticket.
As for Parkinsons achievements, pretty paltry it seems compared with other managers at other clubs, and compared with any sort of common sense approach by loads of other people.
Compare the Derby game at home to the recent games, that game we were defensive, direct and tried to grind out a win, and it nearly worked. Now we have a bit more confidence and have been passing the ball around well at times.
If the players aren't getting an easy ride and want Parkinson to stay, he must have made changes that they are pleased about? If he had lost the dressing room then yes he must go.
Edit: That was in response to AFKA.
When a manager has failed to win 80-something per cent of the games in that period, then yes, that's a high enough failure rate to judge that he wasn't up to the job. Additionally so, so when he's failed in virtually all of the must win so-called six pointers.
: - )
Good debate, guys. Glad I'm not Richard Murray and having to make this call.
i'd say got tired in the ed stages - under pards we would have conceded at least 3 of those shots that elliott stopped!
From what I can remember, it certainly wasn't pretty football. Played ok and worked hard.
Though I did see that game on TV, couldn't go, does make it look a bit different.
my one big problem is when we start talking about attracting players........his recoed id not great in this respect. Loanees his recoed is pretty good (Ward, Murty, McEverly and, to a certain degree, Butterfield) but on the players he has brought in permanently (Burton & Spring)then the Jury's answer has got to be GUILTY.
A last day hat trick should not disguise the failings Burton has had in front of goal and even Parky himself in the programmes notes mentions the need to beef up our firepower..........not forgetting Kandol was also his deciscion.
sorry.........carry on guys but I'm still fence sitting.
but now it's a different ball game so i'm splinters up arse ....
My decision stands - if someone invests BIG soon then change otherwise stick and hope for the best.
Either way we need to keep the Midfield as strong as possible and strengthen our defence.