Everyone keeps raising this "pardew and parky see/saw him play every day" thing. This would be the same management team that has left us with 18 points from 24 games? There's absolutely no reason to trust their judgement.
Yet again yesterday i saw a completely inept performance from Andy Gray. I know he's had well documented personal problems but still, week after week after week he takes his place in the side and does next to nothing, yet we have Dickson who scores nearly every reserve game (i'd love to know his reserve record if anyone knows it) who fails to get a start. I know the subject of Dickson has been done to death on here but honestly we're f*cking rubbish, not scoring goals and we have a bloke scoring freely who can't get a game. It just wouldn't happen at any other club.
edit quote# 43
Seriously, Chris, I don't really consider that Gray is the main problem here. The man knows how to score if you give him the ball in the box, so why doesn't the team do that?
And that's the real problem ..... we don't play to his strengths, and we don't supply him with chances.
Look at the goal he scored against Derby last week, a real goal scorers goal, the way he got in front of his man, shielded the ball with his body arched over it so Powell couldn't do anything except foul him, give away the penalty and be sent off. Then he twisted and put the ball across the keeper into the only real opening inside his far post.
We know he lacks pace, but how many other of our players could have scored from that situation with a lump of a defender all over their back.....?
The problem is we are not generally creating chances for Gray or indeed anyone else.
You have to look at the wide men and the 2 essentially ballwinner centremids, who are just not consistantly creating.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]edit quote# 43
Seriously, Chris, I don't really consider that Gray is the main problem here. The man knows how to score if you give him the ball in the box, so why doesn't the team do that?
And that's the real problem ..... we don't play to his strengths, and we don't supply him with chances.
Look at the goal he scored against Derby last week, a real goal scorers goal, the way he got in front of his man, shielded the ball with his body arched over it so Powell couldn't do anything except foul him, give away the penalty and be sent off. Then he twisted and put the ball across the keeper into the only real opening inside his far post.
We know he lacks pace, but how many other of our players could have scored from that situation with a lump of a defender all over their back.....?
The problem is we are not generally creating chances for Gray or indeed anyone else.
You have to look at the wide men and the 2 essentially ballwinner centremids, who are just not consistantly creating.
I think much of what you say Oggy is spot on. The fact that we do lack creativity in midfield means that we may have to play the percentages and (much as it hurts me to say so) go route one with Gray as a target man and someone quick to get in behind.
The point is that we only have a few quick forwards in the squad and one of them hasn't been given a chance.
but say too 'we don't know if that request has been accepted'. Now I thought that the Gills management might be able to read even if there fans can't. IT'S BEEN ACCEPTED - READ OUR WEBSITE !!
As Oggy says we create NOTHING for our strikers, not a single chance on Saturday. Central midfield is the problem and it doesn't appear Bailey uis part of the answer. From what I've seen I'd prefer both Shelvey and Wright in there but until we start playing to our strikers strenghths and creating chances for them we can't really expect them to score regularly.
Chris Iwelumo is testament to that-bar the first 15 games or so, he never looked like scoring for us last season yet for Colchester before and Wolves now he can't stop scoring. Knocking the strikers when they're not scoring is the easy thing to do but the lack of creativity is the real problem.
Andy Gray has consistently scored over 20 goals a season for other teams in this league because he's been given the opportunities. We didn't create one decent chance for him on Saturday against an average team.
[cite]Posted By: HandG[/cite]Chris Iwelumo is testament to that-bar the first 15 games or so, he never looked like scoring for us last season yet for Colchester before and Wolves now he can't stop scoring. Knocking the strikers when they're not scoring is the easy thing to do but the lack of creativity is the real problem.
Andy Gray has consistently scored over 20 goals a season for other teams in this league because he's been given the opportunities. We didn't create one decent chance for him on Saturday against an average team.
Both. He wasn't bad in front of goal, I'm talking about the rest of his play. I remember him constantly giving away free kicks, not controlling the ball or giving it away.
Not surprised considering Reid was the first name on our team-sheet, BigRed. Gray looks much less of a threat then Iwelumo did. You could tell defenders were having a hard time against him. Against Gray they generally just have to stand still and boot it away when he fails, once more, to hold the ball up.
[cite]Posted By: Chunes[/cite]Gray looks much less of a threat then Iwelumo did. You could tell defenders were having a hard time against him. Against Gray they generally just have to stand still and boot it away when he fails, once more, to hold the ball up.
Yet how many goals has he scored without a creative player in the team? And penalties are goals before you say anything!
Gray is a much underated player in my opinion. I remember people thought very much the same about a certain Andy Hunt when we first bought him but as soon as he got decent service from both wings and through the middle he was banging them in.
Sure they're goals. But they're not goals from open play. They're not a direct result of him being a threat, causing disruption, being creative or turning a defender. They're the fact he can score a penalty. Which a lot of players can do. How many goals is it from open play in his Charlton career? 3? 4? In a season and a half! Come on, you just know Iwelumo would've scored a lot more than that.
Otherwise I don't understand what you mean/what point you're making in your first question.
4 goals from open play this season. One last season. He doesn't contribute enough in my opinion.
Correction: Two last season. Still poor. And his goalscoring record shouldn't be dependent upon other players winning penalties. 6 goals from 28 starts. And he can't hold the ball up.
[cite]Posted By: Chunes[/cite]4 goals from open play this season.Onelast season. He doesn't contribute enough in my opinion.
Correction: Two last season. Still poor. And his goalscoring record shouldn't be dependent upon other players winning penalties. 6 goals from 28 starts. And he can't hold the ball up.
Poor Dickson, I say!
1) Don't underestimate penalties scored. Plenty of Charlton players have missed them and at crucial times.
Gray always looks very confident when taking a penalty, much like Mendonca did.
2) So he doesn't contribute enough - you mean in goals he scores himself?
Or goals/chances made for team mates?
If you give him a service in the box, then he's as lethal as any striker in this division - watch again the way he takes his goal against Derby - under pressure, pure strikers goal!
Since he was converted from a midfielder to striker about 5 years ago mid-way through his spell at Bradford, he's scored at Championship level:
20 goals in 77 appearances for Bradford (including a season in midfield)
25 goals in 58 appearances for Sheffield Utd
25 goals in 60 appearances for Burnley
So the stats prove that he knows where the back of the net is.
If he's not scoring anywhere near so regularly now, I would suggest the problem is the lack of service - he would have to be Ronaldino to score more with the lack of supply he's presently getting.
And we know it's lack of service ...... because we are creating so few chances for anybody, not just Andy Gray.
We know, Gray lacks pace and you won't see him tearing around the pitch dementedly like Nicky Bailey.
But can't hold the ball up ....? Play to him, and you'll see the quality of his first touch, distribution, how he brings others into the game and his involvement in creating opportunities for others.
A poor Dickson ?... you must be joking, they are different types of player. You do need to bring him into the game though - without him, Charlton offer very little at all up front.
Gray spent the early part of his career (like his Uncle Eddie) as a winger. Clearly he can't have had the pace to go past players but must have had something about him to play so many games in that position. Since converting to a striker his goalscoring record is repectable (but not spectacular) and he will always rely on decent wide men and a goalscoring partner up front with him to alleviate the burden.
So, we go back to the two things that people on this thread consistently struggle to get their head round:
(1) If we are lacking true pace to get in behind the opposition why have we not given one of our quickest players a chance?
(2) Why, if we accept Gray is a fixture ,have we given Messrs Varney, McCleod, Todorov, Burton and Waghorn no less than 26 League starts between them (for a net result of 4 goals in open play) and not given a proven goalscorer (albeit at the division below) a single start?
As I've said numerous times before Ian Wright found it difficult to come to terms with the necessity not to give the ball away cheaply at this level. BUT Steve Coppell persevered with him because he saw the bigger picture and moreover the basic fact that you need to score goals to win games.
Sometimes I just think that some modern day Managers (particularly those that have come through the coaching ranks, dutifully passed all their badges etc etc) get their clipboards out and unless you tick all the boxes they won't give you a opportunity. If there is a forward out there who does tick all those boxes he won't be coming to play for us in our state of utter turmoil so let's just take a chance for once - it's not as if we've not tried everything and everyone else is it?
All good points, would love to see him thrown in tomorrow. Parkinson has tried Gray and Varney, Burton and Gray, Gray and McLeod, Gray and Waghorn, he's brought Todorov on a few times. I agree we should give Dickson a go, we've given most players in the squad a chance, but not him.
Comments
Seriously, Chris, I don't really consider that Gray is the main problem here. The man knows how to score if you give him the ball in the box, so why doesn't the team do that?
And that's the real problem ..... we don't play to his strengths, and we don't supply him with chances.
Look at the goal he scored against Derby last week, a real goal scorers goal, the way he got in front of his man, shielded the ball with his body arched over it so Powell couldn't do anything except foul him, give away the penalty and be sent off. Then he twisted and put the ball across the keeper into the only real opening inside his far post.
We know he lacks pace, but how many other of our players could have scored from that situation with a lump of a defender all over their back.....?
The problem is we are not generally creating chances for Gray or indeed anyone else.
You have to look at the wide men and the 2 essentially ballwinner centremids, who are just not consistantly creating.
I think much of what you say Oggy is spot on. The fact that we do lack creativity in midfield means that we may have to play the percentages and (much as it hurts me to say so) go route one with Gray as a target man and someone quick to get in behind.
The point is that we only have a few quick forwards in the squad and one of them hasn't been given a chance.
http://www.kent-online.co.uk/kol08/article/default.asp?article_id=53672
but say too 'we don't know if that request has been accepted'. Now I thought that the Gills management might be able to read even if there fans can't. IT'S BEEN ACCEPTED - READ OUR WEBSITE !!
Andy Gray has consistently scored over 20 goals a season for other teams in this league because he's been given the opportunities. We didn't create one decent chance for him on Saturday against an average team.
100 million dollars...
Thank you, HG.
That's exactly what I mean.
Give him/Gray service and they will score.
Gray is a much underated player in my opinion. I remember people thought very much the same about a certain Andy Hunt when we first bought him but as soon as he got decent service from both wings and through the middle he was banging them in.
Otherwise I don't understand what you mean/what point you're making in your first question.
Correction: Two last season. Still poor. And his goalscoring record shouldn't be dependent upon other players winning penalties. 6 goals from 28 starts. And he can't hold the ball up.
Poor Dickson, I say!
I think Dickson should be given a few starts to prove himself but i can't say if he is or isn't good enough because he hasn't had a fair run!
1) Don't underestimate penalties scored. Plenty of Charlton players have missed them and at crucial times.
Gray always looks very confident when taking a penalty, much like Mendonca did.
2) So he doesn't contribute enough - you mean in goals he scores himself?
Or goals/chances made for team mates?
If you give him a service in the box, then he's as lethal as any striker in this division - watch again the way he takes his goal against Derby - under pressure, pure strikers goal!
Since he was converted from a midfielder to striker about 5 years ago mid-way through his spell at Bradford, he's scored at Championship level:
20 goals in 77 appearances for Bradford (including a season in midfield)
25 goals in 58 appearances for Sheffield Utd
25 goals in 60 appearances for Burnley
So the stats prove that he knows where the back of the net is.
If he's not scoring anywhere near so regularly now, I would suggest the problem is the lack of service - he would have to be Ronaldino to score more with the lack of supply he's presently getting.
And we know it's lack of service ...... because we are creating so few chances for anybody, not just Andy Gray.
We know, Gray lacks pace and you won't see him tearing around the pitch dementedly like Nicky Bailey.
But can't hold the ball up ....? Play to him, and you'll see the quality of his first touch, distribution, how he brings others into the game and his involvement in creating opportunities for others.
A poor Dickson ?... you must be joking, they are different types of player. You do need to bring him into the game though - without him, Charlton offer very little at all up front.
So, we go back to the two things that people on this thread consistently struggle to get their head round:
(1) If we are lacking true pace to get in behind the opposition why have we not given one of our quickest players a chance?
(2) Why, if we accept Gray is a fixture ,have we given Messrs Varney, McCleod, Todorov, Burton and Waghorn no less than 26 League starts between them (for a net result of 4 goals in open play) and not given a proven goalscorer (albeit at the division below) a single start?
As I've said numerous times before Ian Wright found it difficult to come to terms with the necessity not to give the ball away cheaply at this level. BUT Steve Coppell persevered with him because he saw the bigger picture and moreover the basic fact that you need to score goals to win games.
Sometimes I just think that some modern day Managers (particularly those that have come through the coaching ranks, dutifully passed all their badges etc etc) get their clipboards out and unless you tick all the boxes they won't give you a opportunity. If there is a forward out there who does tick all those boxes he won't be coming to play for us in our state of utter turmoil so let's just take a chance for once - it's not as if we've not tried everything and everyone else is it?
He's got a point to prove - and we've got 3 points to gain.
Start him!