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Waghorn signs

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  • NOBODY IS HAVING A GO AT WAGHORN AND NOBODY WILL DO - unless he turns out to be crap - but having seen in him a youth cup game, he's a good player

    The problem is we have THREE other centre forwards potentially more deserving of at least a run in the side before we go signing an unproven, untested and as to date, a young centre forward who hasn't scored in professional football!

    If Pardew had given runs to Dickson, Fleetwood and McLeod this season, then we'd all be saying - thank god we have got a new centre forward in!
  • Its baffaling thats what it is !
  • Received this comment from a Sunderland fan:

    He's one of the decent players to come out of our youth academy and plays decent in the reserves. He's only played two Prem games against Man U and Chelsea, which are strange games to play him in as he's hardly going to make an impact.

    It's a strange one this. A young inexperienced lad is not what you need in a relegation scrap in the CCC so I can't see him making an impact. I'm sure I heard somewhere that he's recovered now though.
  • All these comments about him not having scored in league football do seem a bit harsh as his only appearances have been in the premiership, and seem to have been against the top sides.

    From my reading of the story linked, it seems as though at the start of this year he was to be involved with the first team squad, but got injured. As a consequence, Sunderland brought in two more strikers, in Cisse and Healy, and now he's back, he's unable to break into the first 16.

    Story from Sky Sports at the start of the season

    I know its difficult to accept, but Pardew has access to watching his strikers day in day out on the training pitch, therefore we have to trust his judgment - although it seems during his tenure that his judgment has been more than a little wayward at times. If Waghorn turns out to be better, or different to what we have already, then hopefully it will work out. Better that than play three strikers who might not be very good just to give them a chance.

    Questions do have to be asked about Pardew's purchases of McLeod and Fleetwood in particular, but if he deems them unable to perform adequately then at least he's trying to find someone else who can. The trouble seems to be that too many of the players he signs, he then realises aren't good enough.

    Lets wait and see how this loan works out - and any others that come in this week - before passing too much judgment.

    If Pardew is at risk of losing his job anyway, then lets allow him this one last throw of the dice.
  • Nearly 200 posts on a LOAN signing of an 18 yr old lad indicate the level of frustration many feel but I suggest this signing emanates from the change in Pardew thinking. He stated he approached the current challenge as if he were just starting the job – i.e. what would he do differently in training, use of personnel, team structure etc.,

    Plymouth & Birmingham games give credence to a new pattern of play with Semedo in front of the back four behind Bouzza/Varney, Holland & Bailey with full backs in YM & KY providing the width. If you look at the reserve side he did the same thing with Basey playing in midfield with Racon, Wright, Shelvey with Dean Sinclair at right back & Ian Harte at left back.

    Playing such a system needs a decent physical presence in the box. Gray apart, he has few options Varney (failed to deliver), Todorov (not got the legs), McLeod (back from injury), Dickson, Fleetwood, Bouzza. Like many I have not seen enough of Dickson, Fleetwood or Bouzza but none strike me as providing the type of target needed.

    If McLeod were fully fit it may have been a different matter but based on the descriptions of Waghorn he does appears to offer something different. I am sure we all wish him well.

    It is tough on the others especially Dickson but there does appear to be some method to this signing.


    Grapevine 49
  • Pardew seems to be judging this player on a good performance against players he doesn't consider good enough.
  • I fear he's lost the plot.I hope the lad does do well, but it's a bit harsh on the others who we already have, who havent been given a chance. What happened to last weeks quote about us needing experienced players to get us out of this situation ?.
  • What happened to last weeks quote about us needing experienced players to get us out of this situation ?.

    Typical of Pardew really. He's just taking a gamble and hoping Waghorn will have a big impact.

    Yet again its a player that is some way off his peak, most of Pardew's signings seem to be players that could be good, but are a few years off doing it consistently.

    Maybe they are easier to sign, but we have a squad full of players like this.
  • [cite]Posted By: Grapevine49[/cite]Nearly 200 posts on a LOAN signing of an 18 yr old lad indicate the level of frustration many feel but I suggest this signing emanates from the change in Pardew thinking. He stated he approached the current challenge as if he were just starting the job – i.e. what would he do differently in training, use of personnel, team structure etc.,

    Plymouth & Birmingham games give credence to a new pattern of play with Semedo in front of the back four behind Bouzza/Varney, Holland & Bailey with full backs in YM & KY providing the width. If you look at the reserve side he did the same thing with Basey playing in midfield with Racon, Wright, Shelvey with Dean Sinclair at right back & Ian Harte at left back.

    Playing such a system needs a decent physical presence in the box. Gray apart, he has few options Varney (failed to deliver), Todorov (not got the legs), McLeod (back from injury), Dickson, Fleetwood, Bouzza. Like many I have not seen enough of Dickson, Fleetwood or Bouzza but none strike me as providing the type of target needed.

    If McLeod were fully fit it may have been a different matter but based on the descriptions of Waghorn he does appears to offer something different. I am sure we all wish him well.

    It is tough on the others especially Dickson but there does appear to be some method to this signing.


    Grapevine 49
    Excellent, well considered post gfn
  • excellent grapevine, part of what I wanted to say. how do WE as fans know that Dickson, McLeod et al 'deserve' to be in the side? ok, they were bought earlier, but that doesn't mean a jot.
    Loads of the fans were fed up with Lisbie being given chance after chance and not being dropped, and we 'thought' he wasn't good enough. turns out, he was good enough just perhaps not being played to his potential or whatever. we shouldn't profess to demand players play when they perhaps aren't good enough and I know we're debating the game and putting forward our view, but without the whole picture, its incredibly difficult to give a balanced opinion and criticism of someone when we only see 20% (ISH) of their working week.
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  • Good thought-out post from Grapevine, but i feel JMs short one that followed was just as accurate.
  • What's wrong with Todorov. The bloke scores against Burnley & Pardew lords him up in the press & he's hardly kicked a ball since!
  • because he's unfit and can only play for maximum 20 minutes and cant run? he's good as a sub, but he shouldn't start, and he shouldn't be relied on.
  • He can't be that unfit if he's on the bench. All players should be relied upon to do the job they're paid to do.
  • [quote][cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]excellent grapevine, part of what I wanted to say. how do WE as fans know that Dickson, McLeod et al 'deserve' to be in the side? ok, they were bought earlier, but that doesn't mean a jot.
    Loads of the fans were fed up with Lisbie being given chance after chance and not being dropped, and we 'thought' he wasn't good enough. turns out, he was good enough just perhaps not being played to his potential or whatever. we shouldn't profess to demand players play when they perhaps aren't good enough and I know we're debating the game and putting forward our view, but without the whole picture, its incredibly difficult to give a balanced opinion and criticism of someone when we only see 20% (ISH) of their working week.[/quote]

    What you appear to be saying is that we should trust Pardews judgement, but then weren't we supposed to trust his judgement when he brought in 4 strikers from the lower leagues, 3 of whom are now appearently deemed not good enough without any of them being given a run in the side. The only one that has been given a decent run in the side couldn't his a cows arse with a banjo!

    Sorry but the "trust Pardew" argument has some serious flaws!
  • I've noticed this is now on the OS as an emergency loan. is this a change or was it always an emergency signing?
  • Perhaps after having the wool pulled over his eyes by 'experienced' loan signings like Lee Cook, Pardew has decided to try a loan with a difference.
    At least Waghorn is going to be hungry and determined to prove - even if it's to Roy Keane - that he deserves a chance.

    Before the summer 'financial crisis' and subsequent fire sale, Pardew said he wouldn't be going down the loan route.

    I would imagine he's been offered senior professionals recently who have given him flashbacks about Cook.

    No signing is guarenteed to be a success - at least with Waghorn (described as a all action player by those who've seen him) we will get committment and effort. If he's able to chuck a bit of skill in, and hopefully a few goals, I'll be happy.
  • [cite]Posted By: Barn Door Varney[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]excellent grapevine, part of what I wanted to say. how do WE as fans know that Dickson, McLeod et al 'deserve' to be in the side? ok, they were bought earlier, but that doesn't mean a jot.
    Loads of the fans were fed up with Lisbie being given chance after chance and not being dropped, and we 'thought' he wasn't good enough. turns out, he was good enough just perhaps not being played to his potential or whatever. we shouldn't profess to demand players play when they perhaps aren't good enough and I know we're debating the game and putting forward our view, but without the whole picture, its incredibly difficult to give a balanced opinion and criticism of someone when we only see 20% (ISH) of their working week.

    What you appear to be saying is that we should trust Pardews judgement, but then weren't we supposed to trust his judgement when he brought in 4 strikers from the lower leagues, 3 of whom are now appearently deemed not good enough without any of them being given a run in the side. The only one that has been given a decent run in the side couldn't his a cows arse with a banjo!

    Sorry but the "trust Pardew" argument has some serious flaws!

    was there a guarantee when those players were signed that they HAD to play at least 10 games this season or did the fans just assume that they were a clan of little rooney's waiting to make their england debuts. they were always "ones for the future" we as fans just wanted them to come off sooner than later. I'm not necessarily encouraging blind faith in pards, but there is a team of people working with him, who probably i'd bet, know a lot more than us mere fans about who is ready to do what in the team at what time, and I guess we just have to see what turns up on a match day. like i said, they see the players and know them, and we only see them for 90 mins on a saturday, we have no idea what happens the rest of the week so we can't really assume we have a team of world beaters not being given their chance. It is positive thinking though which i admire from people that these guys could be capable of playing :-)
  • Unfortunately Suze, I am not so sure that Pards and his team DO know more than the 20,000 of us who go week in, week out and see consistently that we have players who aren't performing or will never be able to perform.

    I honestly do not think 20,000 fans are consistently wrong when over the years we've seen a whole host of players, who have been rubbish for us, leave and then disappear off into the wild blue yonder and drop down the leagues like lead bricks!

    This is not really a Waghorn thread - it's a Pardew thread .... I would say now, that the majority of Charlton fans would prefer to see someobody come in and replace Pardew now before it is too late
  • [cite]Posted By: supaclive[/cite]I would say now, that the majority of Charlton fans would prefer to see someobody come in and replace Pardew now before it is too late


    In the history of sweeping statements, thats a doozy!
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  • [cite]Posted By: mart77[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: supaclive[/cite]I would say now, that the majority of Charlton fans would prefer to see someobody come in and replace Pardew now before it is too late


    In the history of sweeping statements, thats a doozy!

    thank you for speaking on behalf of the majority of charlton fans clive! you don't know what the majority of fans want, and I'm tired of people trying to speak on others behalf. nearly as bad as NSS and his 90%!!!! :-)

    you many not be so sure, but we may go week in week out (not 20k because that includes away fans) but he is with them day in day out, so i dare say, he and his team of which there is a host of them, may know an incy bit more than us.

    I actually thought over the last week or so the anger has subsided slightly (I say slightly) and fans on here are feeling a tiny tiny bit more positive (i said maybe a little bit) because of a couple of good reports from the weekend. I know there are those that still think we've got no hope, but I think you got the wrong thread when generalising the fans opinion, that was done to death a couple of weeks ago and reached no conclusion!
  • Many (myself included) have questioned Pardew’s style of management. The substance of that debate was entirely valid and very well argued but do we really need to cover the same ground on every Pardew decision. No matter the frustration until the board says otherwise Pardew is the man in situ we need to move on.

    The two recent improved performances seem to have arisen from a changed system which he judged to suit the best players in the squad. Whatever our overall challenges to his reign it would be churlish not to acknowledge and support the modest progression made.

    The performances appear to give us some cause for optimism though the results (inc. reserves – losing is a very bad habit) do not. The revised system will not suit every player – Basey, a decent player does not naturally fit the role of an overlapping full back – Harte if he ever signs spent his career playing that role.

    Todorov or McLeod should be able to do a job in the revised system if fully fit – they are not. In a month the situation may be different. Dickson (very unluckily for him ) despite his talent does not consistently offer the option of at least sharing the target man workload. You need another option. Pardew has chosen Waghorn.

    The challenges to this selection on paper are again valid but on paper we should be a top 6 side. The fears are understandable but to me the outcry before the lad has kicked a ball is unhelpful (no real pressure on the young man is there?) and premature.


    Grapevine 49
  • [cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: Barn Door Varney[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]excellent grapevine, part of what I wanted to say. how do WE as fans know that Dickson, McLeod et al 'deserve' to be in the side? ok, they were bought earlier, but that doesn't mean a jot.
    Loads of the fans were fed up with Lisbie being given chance after chance and not being dropped, and we 'thought' he wasn't good enough. turns out, he was good enough just perhaps not being played to his potential or whatever. we shouldn't profess to demand players play when they perhaps aren't good enough and I know we're debating the game and putting forward our view, but without the whole picture, its incredibly difficult to give a balanced opinion and criticism of someone when we only see 20% (ISH) of their working week.

    What you appear to be saying is that we should trust Pardews judgement, but then weren't we supposed to trust his judgement when he brought in 4 strikers from the lower leagues, 3 of whom are now appearently deemed not good enough without any of them being given a run in the side. The only one that has been given a decent run in the side couldn't his a cows arse with a banjo!

    Sorry but the "trust Pardew" argument has some serious flaws!

    was there a guarantee when those players were signed that they HAD to play at least 10 games this season or did the fans just assume that they were a clan of little rooney's waiting to make their england debuts. they were always "ones for the future" we as fans just wanted them to come off sooner than later. I'm not necessarily encouraging blind faith in pards, but there is a team of people working with him, who probably i'd bet, know a lot more than us mere fans about who is ready to do what in the team at what time, and I guess we just have to see what turns up on a match day. like i said, they see the players and know them, and we only see them for 90 mins on a saturday, we have no idea what happens the rest of the week so we can't really assume we have a team of world beaters not being given their chance. It is positive thinking though which i admire from people that these guys could be capable of playing :-)

    I'm not saying that anyone should be guarenteed a start however it does seem pretty stupid to buy someone and not give them a chance.

    As for "one's for the future" what is Waghorn then, hardly the finished article is he, he hasn't even scored a league goal! Why are we developing another clubs player at the expense of our own? On what basis is Waghorn a better bet than Mcleod, Dickson or Fleetwood? And when Waghorn's 3 months are over what then?

    If Pardew had brought in a Lita or a Cureton, someone one with a record of scoring goals at this level, then fair enough. That he has actually brought in someone with no league experience and seemingly is going to play them in front of our own players that have a decent record of scoring (all be it at a lower level) is quite frankly crazy imo.

    I've not been calling for Pardews head but this decision really has made me wonder whether he has any idea of what he is doing.

    Think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one suzi. ;o)
  • Well said Barn Door. Suze that's just sophistry.
  • At this point can I just repeat my thread from the summer and say, I blame the kit!

    *leaps under a desk as Henry prepares to throw a large rotting cabbage my way*
  • edited November 2008
    [cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: mart77[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: supaclive[/cite]I would say now, that the majority of Charlton fans would prefer to see someobody come in and replace Pardew now before it is too late


    In the history of sweeping statements, thats a doozy!

    thank you for speaking on behalf of the majority of charlton fans clive! you don't know what the majority of fans want, and I'm tired of people trying to speak on others behalf. nearly as bad as NSS and his 90%!!!! :-)

    I actually thought over the last week or so the anger has subsided slightly (I say slightly) and fans on here are feeling a tiny tiny bit more positive (i said maybe a little bit) because of a couple of good reports from the weekend. I know there are those that still think we've got no hope, but I think you got the wrong thread when generalising the fans opinion, that was done to death a couple of weeks ago and reached no conclusion!

    I think let each fan have his or her own opinion and My opinion is to let Pards ride out the storm until the board deems fit.

    Also Let Waggy Have A Go As He Will Be Hungry In My Opinion...
    [cite]Posted By: Valley11[/cite]At this point can I just repeat my thread from the summer and say, I blame the kit!

    *leaps under a desk as Henry prepares to throw a large rotting cabbage my way*

    Don't blame the kit I calculated a 100% profit margin on those! lol!!!
  • BDL> I can see your point, and it does seem strange to bring someone else in, but this person hasn't kicked a ball yet, some haven't heard of him, but others have and he could be the nuts, I think criticising a decision when the player hasn't had a chance to prove that he is worthy of the gamble is a little unfair. I agree, if it doesn't come off by xmas, then it will be valid to be baffled by the choice. we did get lita, and he was pish!
    I actually think at times you could put thierry henry up front and he wouldn't score - and I've said this for a long time, if the midfield don't get the ball to the strikers then they can't be blamed for much. thats not to say they can't make mistakes, but all strikers do. look at the recent sitters made by the top 4 clubs. the difference is - they each get 5 chances to score and may get 1 goal, our boys get 4 chances and no goals. the odds are a bit against them to be fair.

    chunes> I don't agree- I think i've got a valid point.
  • edited November 2008
    Agree with all of that, and especially the second paragraph as the amount of chances we create is well below whats needed for average strikers to get a decent tally over the season. Pards can be criticised for the lack of midfield creativity but creative midfielders are hard to get especially when the cash pot is empty. Hopefully Varns will move out wide now and he can work on his creating skills rather than his shooting, as if he can get his game going in any way at all then perhaps it'll all come together for him.
  • edited November 2008
    Suze, you're saying we should trust Pardew judgement because he sees those players every day, but it was his judgement to sign them. And apparently they're not good enough - so basically he signed three strikers who aren't even good enough to play for the team. So you're saying that, having signed three strikers that aren't good enough to even play, we should trust that Pardew knows what he's doing with this signing!

    Doesn't work for me.
  • excellent grapevine, part of what I wanted to say. how do WE as fans know that Dickson, McLeod et al 'deserve' to be in the side? ok, they were bought earlier, but that doesn't mean a jot.
    Loads of the fans were fed up with Lisbie being given chance after chance and not being dropped, and we 'thought' he wasn't good enough. turns out, he was good enough just perhaps not being played to his potential or whatever. we shouldn't profess to demand players play when they perhaps aren't good enough and I know we're debating the game and putting forward our view, but without the whole picture, its incredibly difficult to give a balanced opinion and criticism of someone when we only see 20% (ISH) of their working week.

    To be fair to Pardew, he said he didn't think Lisbie would stay fit for a whole season, I didn't think he would either. I don't blame him for letting Lisbie go.

    I think the new start probably did him good, he got a run in a team playing under no pressure. No guarantee Lisbie would have scored as many goals for us as he did for Colchester either, if he went on a run without scoring he could have felt the pressure and struggled.
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