I've read everyone's posts with interest, and frankly have been really impressed with the well-thought out opinions that people have posted, not least in light of the out of the blue nature of this development. I'm inclined to agree that (a) what the fans want will not carry the day in any event so "we have no choice", but (b) this is an exciting development that seems to be well-supported by the members of the board that we have all trusted for years. The other point that comes to mind is that I don't think that this is at all comparable to the Chelsea purchase, as in the current economic climate, for a club like CAFC survival itself could be in doubt without a huge influx of capital. I'm also a lot happier seeing this kind of investment rather than the Simon Jordan/Gretna-style "saviour" model, which depends so heavily on one person having the money to keep the club afloat single-handedly and to maintain interest...now that I think about it, that is the Chelsea model!
All in all, I think it would be a terribly exciting time to be at the Valley, rather than an ocean away!
[quote][cite]Posted By: Can-addick[/cite]The other point that comes to mind is that I don't think that this is at all comparable to the Chelsea purchase, as in the current economic climate, for a club like CAFC survival itself could be in doubt without a huge influx of capital. I'm also a lot happier seeing this kind of investment rather than the Simon Jordan/Gretna-style "saviour" model, which depends so heavily on one person having the money to keep the club afloat single-handedly and to maintain interest...now that I think about it, that is the Chelsea model!
All in all, I think it would be a terribly exciting time to be at the Valley, rather than an ocean away![/quote]
Well, one might argue that CAFC becoming family owned by the Maktoums is not that much different from having a single owner surely? Zabeel investments just got two shareholders, Sheik Maktoum of Dubai and his son and heir Sheik Hamdan apparently.
Yes.... and the Maktoums have been about supporting British Sport at various race courses over the last 30 years - his son obvious likes footie as well as the gee-gees.
The game I grew up loving and the club I supported for over 40 years no longer exist. Any semblance of a level playing field in professional football has long gone. There were always “haves” and “have nots” as clearly clubs based in the larger cities had the greater fan base and attendances and thus the revenue to acquire the better players but there was always the chance for a club with good management to buck the trend, say an Ipswich or Nottingham Forest who both excelled in the top division and indeed Europe.
Since the removal of shared attendance revenue the divide between the larger and smaller clubs has grown. That divide became and remains cataclysmic with the introduction of Sky money, the PL and the Champions league. Unlike US sports who recognized the need for the semblance of financial equilibrium with salary caps and wealth taxes the FA sat on its hands and now all we have left is a parody of what competitive sport should be – the PL - nothing more than an ego fueled financial pissing contest.
Over the past 15 years those guiding Charlton have done a phenomenal job in getting & keeping the club at least on the same playing fields. They, despite mistakes in the past 2/3 years deserve the most fulsome praise. During this journey it seems they have recognized both the scope of their ability to secure even a small seat at the table and where the unfettered ambitions of the few at the very top would ultimately leave the club they have so ably led.
As view we the changes that have overtaken our national sport we must surely realize nothing stays the same - is it not only a matter of time before a Super PL or European Super League is established with franchised membership? (i.e.no promotion or relegation). This will have nothing to do with fairness, sporting spirit, a merit based access to the top but will be finance based with TV rights & monies to match.
For all those scratching their heads as why this investment group so strongly rumored to be in talks with Newcastle and Liverpool would even give little old Charlton a second look such a future is the answer. In the capital you have 2 North (Arsenal & Spurs), 1 West (Chelsea), possibly 1 East (West Ham) based club capable of supporting a franchise model.
There is nothing in the capital’s south or even South East of England. No disrespect to other London clubs.
In such terms Charlton at the price it is available, with the infrastructure the board developed within the club and in communities across the South East the potential is every bit as attractive as any other investment opportunity.
As a long term strategic move, for both the club and the investment company, it makes perfect sense.
In such a model will it be the same little old Charlton, probably not, but in reality when was last really thus. The board, like the fans, can only play the cards they are dealt.
To those alienated by the thought of such a change of ownership, by all means remember the not so good old days - we at least had the opportunity to live that experience but I suggest those really have already been consigned to history. Look at this new step as at least an opportunity to participate in the future. It may not be the same but it will be the nearest you are likely to ever get to the real thing.
Well put Grapevine 49...Even if I personally don´t see a need for a Super-PL to arrive given that the cards are already stacked in favour of the financially stronger clubs.
A really excellent post Grapevine and sums up pretty much how I feel. The old days are gone and for better or worse football is "big business". Charlton has huge potential because of its geographical position and also the roots built into the community of the area and out into Kent.
If we go back into history for a moment, the Glickstens knew this, they knew that with the Arsenal "franchise" moving to the north, there was a huge gap left and a massive potential to be exploited. They created a team capable of taking on the big boys. Sadly the war intervened and in the post war era, they just wouldn't or couldn't follow up their initial investment to cement a place above the salt at the top table.
Decline followed and then ruin. Out of that ruin, a club was re-born and through Alwen and then Murray, the club clawed it's way back to the big time. Only to slip back again. All through recent times though, Murray and the board believed, like the Glickstens before them, that our club was uniquely positioned to exploit the area south and south east of the Thames. Perhaps the vision of Albert and Sidney in the 1930's may finally be about to be realised. I sincerely hope that it is.
[cite]Posted By: Grapevine49[/cite]The game I grew up loving and the club I supported for over 40 years no longer exist. Any semblance of a level playing field in professional football has long gone. There were always “haves” and “have nots” as clearly clubs based in the larger cities had the greater fan base and attendances and thus the revenue to acquire the better players but there was always the chance for a club with good management to buck the trend, say an Ipswich or Nottingham Forest who both excelled in the top division and indeed Europe.
Since the removal of shared attendance revenue the divide between the larger and smaller clubs has grown. That divide became and remains cataclysmic with the introduction of Sky money, the PL and the Champions league. Unlike US sports who recognized the need for the semblance of financial equilibrium with salary caps and wealth taxes the FA sat on its hands and now all we have left is a parody of what competitive sport should be – the PL - nothing more than an ego fueled financial pissing contest.
Over the past 15 years those guiding Charlton have done a phenomenal job in getting & keeping the club at least on the same playing fields. They, despite mistakes in the past 2/3 years deserve the most fulsome praise. During this journey it seems they have recognized both the scope of their ability to secure even a small seat at the table and where the unfettered ambitions of the few at the very top would ultimately leave the club they have so ably led.
As view we the changes that have overtaken our national sport we must surely realize nothing stays the same - is it not only a matter of time before a Super PL or European Super League is established with franchised membership? (i.e.no promotion or relegation). This will have nothing to do with fairness, sporting spirit, a merit based access to the top but will be finance based with TV rights & monies to match.
For all those scratching their heads as why this investment group so strongly rumored to be in talks with Newcastle and Liverpool would even give little old Charlton a second look such a future is the answer. In the capital you have 2 North (Arsenal & Spurs), 1 West (Chelsea), possibly 1 East (West Ham) based club capable of supporting a franchise model.
There is nothing in the capital’s south or even South East of England. No disrespect to other London clubs.
In such terms Charlton at the price it is available, with the infrastructure the board developed within the club and in communities across the South East the potential is every bit as attractive as any other investment opportunity.
As a long term strategic move, for both the club and the investment company, it makes perfect sense.
In such a model will it be the same little old Charlton, probably not, but in reality when was last really thus. The board, like the fans, can only play the cards they are dealt.
To those alienated by the thought of such a change of ownership, by all means remember the not so good old days - we at least had the opportunity to live that experience but I suggest those really have already been consigned to history. Look at this new step as at least an opportunity to participate in the future. It may not be the same but it will be the nearest you are likely to ever get to the real thing.
Grapevine 49
Wow! Quite simply that is the greatest post you will ever see on a forum such as this.
One can only guess at who "Grapevine49" may actually be, but that doesn't really matter - he's hit it on the head.
Great post Grapevine and just what I think. The past, the good and bad, has gone. Don't forget it, celebrate it, learn from it but move on or get run over in the rush.
The Times they are a changing.
I have a good idea who Grapevine is. He's the bloke off the telly who does the history programmes : - )
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Great post Grapevine and just what I think. The past, the good and bad, has gone. Don't forget it, celebrate it, learn from it but move on or get run over in the rush.
The Times they are a changing.
I have a good idea who Grapevine is. He's the bloke off the telly who does the history programmes : - )
If it is, do you think he'd sign my copy of 'Tommy'?
Since the take over of Chelski I have thought that football has been heading in the wrong direction so after greeting the possible take over of Charlton with happiness I changed to view it more negatively and was concerned that we would go the way of the other foreign owned clubs.
I have read the posts here and thought on this before committing my thoughts to the forum. I now see it a little differently. In our current situation we shall either remain in mid table obscurity or do even worse but with financial stability that the take would bring we have the chance to return to the top level of football.
My remaining worry is how it will be done and the effect on our current players.We currently have a fragile mix of youth and experience, how will that youth view their future prospects if the club brings in expensive imports in January.However if the transition is done organically with care for the current squad together with a commitment to our youth policy and harnessed to an increased obligation to the local community then there is possibility that the future Charlton will retain the best of the past with the financial vigour it will need to succeed in the future.
Richard Murray and his fellow Directors are first of all Charlton supporters and our trust in them since leaving Selhurst Park has been rewarded, it is my view that we should continue with that trust for our future development.
'As for the comments regarding hoping the club dies not change, the only reason a club changes is if supporter’s attitudes do'
But of course the supporters' attitudes will change because the supporters will change.
You don't really think that the people to go to Chelsea are the same as those who went 20 years ago do you?
Even if everyone on this board continued to go, we'd be in the minority (amongst 40,000+ people). We already are judging by the stupid booing that goes on.
[quote][cite]Posted By: lancashire lad[/cite]Since the take over of Chelski I have thought that football has been heading in the wrong direction so after greeting the possible take over of Charlton with happiness I changed to view it more negatively and was concerned that we would go the way of the other foreign owned clubs.
I have read the posts here and thought on this before committing my thoughts to the forum. I now see it a little differently. In our current situation we shall either remain in mid table obscurity or do even worse but with financial stability that the take would bring we have the chance to return to the top level of football.
My remaining worry is how it will be done and the effect on our current players.We currently have a fragile mix of youth and experience, how will that youth view their future prospects if the club brings in expensive imports in January.However if the transition is done organically with care for the current squad together with a commitment to our youth policy and harnessed to an increased obligation to the local community then there is possibility that the future Charlton will retain the best of the past with the financial vigour it will need to succeed in the future.
Richard Murray and his fellow Directors are first of all Charlton supporters and our trust in them since leaving Selhurst Park has been rewarded, it is my view that we should continue with that trust for our future development.[/quote]
I've posted elsewhere that we only have two choices as a club - take outside money as a leg up back into the premier league or witness further decline - probably at a more rapid rate than Charlton's demise between 196x and 1984!
Charlton fans have changed in some ways - they have become a little spoilt after 10 years of growth and punching above our weight while other clubs fell over - but deep down there are plenty who want the club to run properly...
a lot of this is about surviving the current rules of the game - I like Grapevine's analysis - the "franchise" is possibly there but not written down as in the US - but then this is simple marketing - which is why outside money prefers us to paying £400M to a declining club in the North East - I don't ever think promotion relegation will be abolished - yes it is getting harder to stay up once you are promoted but every year an establised premier club (like us 2 years ago) falls apart and drops making room for someone else to give it a go.
Too much money and middling clubs losing fortunes to finish in mid-table ? Perhaps one day the EU or Premier League will but in a salary cap - or maybe Sky will do it as people start cancelling their subscriptions? What I'm saying is that this is outside the control of CAFC and may shift but Charlton need to get on with putting their own house in order.
What I really love about this is the contrast with Palace and West Ham - all quiet and then a quick announcement that we are about to be taken over (but with key people like RM staying on the board) as opposed to megaphone diplomacy about the game and being up for sale coupled with and dodgy ground ownership (Selhurst) and player loan deals (Tevez)
to MCFC ...I appreciate your input here, as you're all some months ahead regarding how things might pan out. My understanding of your understanding is it's 99% certain to happen, and Charlton Athletic will then theoretically be the second richest club in the world after Manchester City (did I really just type that?). What is impressive at Maine Road, sorry TCOMS, is that Hughes jumped at the chance of going there, that Robhinio signed in an instant (it seems), and most of all you have SWP back from Chelsea. Is this really the effect of a massive wad? I mean if we at Charlton are to experience similar stuff maybe we will get all our old home grown players back. We would have a team something like
Jason Brown Paul Konchesky Michael Turner Linvoy Primus JLloyd Samuel Jamal Campbell-Ryce Lee Bowyer Scott Parker Kevin Nicholls Jermaine Defoe James Walker
Have I forgotten somebody obvious. Supplement the above with Lloyd Sam, Fortune, Shelvey, Randolph/Elliott and others.
Oh by the way MCFC, as you're rich and stuff, would you like Nicky Weaver back for, say, 25 million?
Yeah Addickted, second that. I have 400 shares which I am willing to sell at the bargain price of £50 each, but I advise interested parties to get moving quick before the price doubles!
I´m sure the deal will go thru, it´s not like anyone have been denying that there is an offer on the table..Unless there is a legal angle somewhere that makes it impossible to take the club in the direction that Dubai wants, like an unknown rule that says that the council can demand a tithe of the clubs revenue or similar.
When "due diligence" is concluded and the accountants and legal guys have delivered their conclusions to the prospective buyer a formal offer might be given or Dubai will simply say, Ooops..sorry, here take £5m as compensation for your time.
As for Charlton getting their old players back it´s very much up to the current or future manager I think, City getting SWP, Robinho, Hughes etc was mainly a case of promising them a bright future for the club, selecting players that was unhappy and of course paying cash..It´s amazing how easy transfers are when you can offer cash, you lot should try it in January.
Go for talented players that feel unhappy where they are today and show them the money is my advice..lol
Erm..You can keep Nicky, I never really trusted him as a goalie and his drinking habits while in Manchester was a bit to much I must admit.
[cite]Posted By: MCFC[/cite]Erm..You can keep Nicky, I never really trusted him as a goalie and his drinking habits while in Manchester was a bit to much I must admit.
He's lost weight since he came MCFC, perhaps he doesn't like southern ales?
Having gone through the whole spectrum of emotions of supporting Charlton for the past thirty five ish years, we now have the biggest development ever about to happen. most supporters will feel a mixture of emotions ,exitement and concern. Football has changed without a doubt, and it wont ever be the way it used to be again. Investers are putting millions of pounds into clubs with much the same effect that Sky 's millions have done.The game has moved on enormously over the last decade,and the clubs that dont move with it will fall further and further behind.Richard Murray is a top man and a massive fan as well. I think the message from the board is,that if we want to survive and progress,then we have no choice but to accept investment. Hopefully it will be structured so that we dont lose the 'heart' of the club we all love. There's no doubt it is a fantastic opportunity to safeguard the future of the club, and at the end of the day that is priceless. Enjoy the ride.
Can anyone answer my questions? On a sliding scale and the takeover goes through will our new owners be worth more than the owners of: Man Utd,Chelsea,Liverpool,Tottenham,Newcastle YES/NO
But not in the same bracket as Man City/Supporters Directors YES/NO ;-)
[cite]Posted By: T.C.E[/cite]Can anyone answer my questions? On a sliding scale and the takeover goes through will our new owners be worth more than the owners of: Man Utd,Chelsea,Liverpool,Tottenham,Newcastle YES/NO
But not in the same bracket as Man City/Supporters Directors YES/NO ;-)
Below Man City but way above everyone else as family fortunes go...Let us say that the prospective Charlton owners are worth more than the combined value of all Premier league (except City) and Championship owners put together, and that includes QPR and Chelsea.
Comments
All in all, I think it would be a terribly exciting time to be at the Valley, rather than an ocean away!
All in all, I think it would be a terribly exciting time to be at the Valley, rather than an ocean away![/quote]
Well, one might argue that CAFC becoming family owned by the Maktoums is not that much different from having a single owner surely?
Zabeel investments just got two shareholders, Sheik Maktoum of Dubai and his son and heir Sheik Hamdan apparently.
Since the removal of shared attendance revenue the divide between the larger and smaller clubs has grown. That divide became and remains cataclysmic with the introduction of Sky money, the PL and the Champions league. Unlike US sports who recognized the need for the semblance of financial equilibrium with salary caps and wealth taxes the FA sat on its hands and now all we have left is a parody of what competitive sport should be – the PL - nothing more than an ego fueled financial pissing contest.
Over the past 15 years those guiding Charlton have done a phenomenal job in getting & keeping the club at least on the same playing fields. They, despite mistakes in the past 2/3 years deserve the most fulsome praise. During this journey it seems they have recognized both the scope of their ability to secure even a small seat at the table and where the unfettered ambitions of the few at the very top would ultimately leave the club they have so ably led.
As view we the changes that have overtaken our national sport we must surely realize nothing stays the same - is it not only a matter of time before a Super PL or European Super League is established with franchised membership? (i.e.no promotion or relegation). This will have nothing to do with fairness, sporting spirit, a merit based access to the top but will be finance based with TV rights & monies to match.
For all those scratching their heads as why this investment group so strongly rumored to be in talks with Newcastle and Liverpool would even give little old Charlton a second look such a future is the answer. In the capital you have 2 North (Arsenal & Spurs), 1 West (Chelsea), possibly 1 East (West Ham) based club capable of supporting a franchise model.
There is nothing in the capital’s south or even South East of England. No disrespect to other London clubs.
In such terms Charlton at the price it is available, with the infrastructure the board developed within the club and in communities across the South East the potential is every bit as attractive as any other investment opportunity.
As a long term strategic move, for both the club and the investment company, it makes perfect sense.
In such a model will it be the same little old Charlton, probably not, but in reality when was last really thus. The board, like the fans, can only play the cards they are dealt.
To those alienated by the thought of such a change of ownership, by all means remember the not so good old days - we at least had the opportunity to live that experience but I suggest those really have already been consigned to history. Look at this new step as at least an opportunity to participate in the future. It may not be the same but it will be the nearest you are likely to ever get to the real thing.
Grapevine 49
If we go back into history for a moment, the Glickstens knew this, they knew that with the Arsenal "franchise" moving to the north, there was a huge gap left and a massive potential to be exploited. They created a team capable of taking on the big boys. Sadly the war intervened and in the post war era, they just wouldn't or couldn't follow up their initial investment to cement a place above the salt at the top table.
Decline followed and then ruin. Out of that ruin, a club was re-born and through Alwen and then Murray, the club clawed it's way back to the big time. Only to slip back again. All through recent times though, Murray and the board believed, like the Glickstens before them, that our club was uniquely positioned to exploit the area south and south east of the Thames. Perhaps the vision of Albert and Sidney in the 1930's may finally be about to be realised. I sincerely hope that it is.
Wow! Quite simply that is the greatest post you will ever see on a forum such as this.
One can only guess at who "Grapevine49" may actually be, but that doesn't really matter - he's hit it on the head.
The Times they are a changing.
I have a good idea who Grapevine is. He's the bloke off the telly who does the history programmes : - )
If it is, do you think he'd sign my copy of 'Tommy'?
I have read the posts here and thought on this before committing my thoughts to the forum. I now see it a little differently. In our current situation we shall either remain in mid table obscurity or do even worse but with financial stability that the take would bring we have the chance to return to the top level of football.
My remaining worry is how it will be done and the effect on our current players.We currently have a fragile mix of youth and experience, how will that youth view their future prospects if the club brings in expensive imports in January.However if the transition is done organically with care for the current squad together with a commitment to our youth policy and harnessed to an increased obligation to the local community then there is possibility that the future Charlton will retain the best of the past with the financial vigour it will need to succeed in the future.
Richard Murray and his fellow Directors are first of all Charlton supporters and our trust in them since leaving Selhurst Park has been rewarded, it is my view that we should continue with that trust for our future development.
But of course the supporters' attitudes will change because the supporters will change.
You don't really think that the people to go to Chelsea are the same as those who went 20 years ago do you?
Even if everyone on this board continued to go, we'd be in the minority (amongst 40,000+ people). We already are judging by the stupid booing that goes on.
I have read the posts here and thought on this before committing my thoughts to the forum. I now see it a little differently. In our current situation we shall either remain in mid table obscurity or do even worse but with financial stability that the take would bring we have the chance to return to the top level of football.
My remaining worry is how it will be done and the effect on our current players.We currently have a fragile mix of youth and experience, how will that youth view their future prospects if the club brings in expensive imports in January.However if the transition is done organically with care for the current squad together with a commitment to our youth policy and harnessed to an increased obligation to the local community then there is possibility that the future Charlton will retain the best of the past with the financial vigour it will need to succeed in the future.
Richard Murray and his fellow Directors are first of all Charlton supporters and our trust in them since leaving Selhurst Park has been rewarded, it is my view that we should continue with that trust for our future development.[/quote]
thats good man....
prob better than my idea of buying the world....
Charlton fans have changed in some ways - they have become a little spoilt after 10 years of growth and punching above our weight while other clubs fell over - but deep down there are plenty who want the club to run properly...
a lot of this is about surviving the current rules of the game - I like Grapevine's analysis - the "franchise" is possibly there but not written down as in the US - but then this is simple marketing - which is why outside money prefers us to paying £400M to a declining club in the North East - I don't ever think promotion relegation will be abolished - yes it is getting harder to stay up once you are promoted but every year an establised premier club (like us 2 years ago) falls apart and drops making room for someone else to give it a go.
Too much money and middling clubs losing fortunes to finish in mid-table ? Perhaps one day the EU or Premier League will but in a salary cap - or maybe Sky will do it as people start cancelling their subscriptions? What I'm saying is that this is outside the control of CAFC and may shift but Charlton need to get on with putting their own house in order.
What I really love about this is the contrast with Palace and West Ham - all quiet and then a quick announcement that we are about to be taken over (but with key people like RM staying on the board) as opposed to megaphone diplomacy about the game and being up for sale coupled with and dodgy ground ownership (Selhurst) and player loan deals (Tevez)
;o)
There might be total silence for weeks as "Due diligence" is in place...nothing to worry about
As a significant stakeholder in the Club, I expected at least a 'phone call from Derek or Richard.
...I appreciate your input here, as you're all some months ahead regarding how things might pan out. My understanding of your understanding is it's 99% certain to happen, and Charlton Athletic will then theoretically be the second richest club in the world after Manchester City (did I really just type that?).
What is impressive at Maine Road, sorry TCOMS, is that Hughes jumped at the chance of going there, that Robhinio signed in an instant (it seems), and most of all you have SWP back from Chelsea. Is this really the effect of a massive wad? I mean if we at Charlton are to experience similar stuff maybe we will get all our old home grown players back. We would have a team something like
Jason Brown
Paul Konchesky Michael Turner Linvoy Primus JLloyd Samuel
Jamal Campbell-Ryce Lee Bowyer Scott Parker Kevin Nicholls
Jermaine Defoe James Walker
Have I forgotten somebody obvious.
Supplement the above with Lloyd Sam, Fortune, Shelvey, Randolph/Elliott and others.
Oh by the way MCFC, as you're rich and stuff, would you like Nicky Weaver back for, say, 25 million?
I´m sure the deal will go thru, it´s not like anyone have been denying that there is an offer on the table..Unless there is a legal angle somewhere that makes it impossible to take the club in the direction that Dubai wants, like an unknown rule that says that the council can demand a tithe of the clubs revenue or similar.
When "due diligence" is concluded and the accountants and legal guys have delivered their conclusions to the prospective buyer a formal offer might be given or Dubai will simply say, Ooops..sorry, here take £5m as compensation for your time.
As for Charlton getting their old players back it´s very much up to the current or future manager I think, City getting SWP, Robinho, Hughes etc was mainly a case of promising them a bright future for the club, selecting players that was unhappy and of course paying cash..It´s amazing how easy transfers are when you can offer cash, you lot should try it in January.
Go for talented players that feel unhappy where they are today and show them the money is my advice..lol
Erm..You can keep Nicky, I never really trusted him as a goalie and his drinking habits while in Manchester was a bit to much I must admit.
He's lost weight since he came MCFC, perhaps he doesn't like southern ales?
Or he might have discovered a new cuisine instead of Pub food...lol
Yeah, to the tune of Camptown Races
"Nicky Weaver's so skinny do dah, do da
He hates steak pies but loves Sushi oh da do dah day"!!
Have been some excellent, considered comments in this thread, thank you all.
But not in the same bracket as Man City/Supporters Directors YES/NO ;-)
Below Man City but way above everyone else as family fortunes go...Let us say that the prospective Charlton owners are worth more than the combined value of all Premier league (except City) and Championship owners put together, and that includes QPR and Chelsea.
Satisfied..?