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Holden sacked?! (Ed. Yes - Confirmed)
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on the other hand, if the coaching/management team are making a total horlicks of their role, what IS the point of keeping them on ? .. someone like Pearce should be well capable of holding the fort until the cavalry arrives .. he might even do a very good, job .. as ever, we will seeRedhenry said:If there isn’t a Manager and back room team ready to come in immediately the decision to clear out the whole team is idiotic IMO4 -
I know that Sandgaard was one for making strange decisions but is someone looking to offload the club likely to have committed it to a new 3 year contract for the manager.PeanutsMolloy said:
Highly improbable.superclive98 said:Just had a thought that's a bit left field.
Could it be a way of extracting money from the club? Holden was the Methven group's choice of manager and were probably instrumental in him being handed a 3 year deal, which will now have to be paid up.
As I said at the start, just a thought.
The original Methven group deal was called off by Sandgaard in the first week of February, prompting Methven's group to threaten legal action. His admin crew (Rodwell et al) departed the Club on 15 Feb.
That contract extension was announced on 11 March when TS was courting other parties, still being threatened with legal action.
We can with 99% probability say that the decision to grant Holden a 3 year deal was Sandgaard's.3 -
ElfsborgAddick said:
3 windows are allowed for our progress, I wonder why!TeeC said:Loving some of the regime ITKs trying blame TS for DH on the other forum. Very very funny
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Can’t believe no one’s chucking Joey Barton’s hat into the ring?0
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Some class conspiracy theories being thrown out, this is topping the Roddy days.5
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He’s even less likely to take instructions from a party threatening legal action at that time.superclive98 said:
I know that Sandgaard was one for making strange decisions but is someone looking to offload the club likely to have committed it to a new 3 year contract for the manager.PeanutsMolloy said:
Highly improbable.superclive98 said:Just had a thought that's a bit left field.
Could it be a way of extracting money from the club? Holden was the Methven group's choice of manager and were probably instrumental in him being handed a 3 year deal, which will now have to be paid up.
As I said at the start, just a thought.
The original Methven group deal was called off by Sandgaard in the first week of February, prompting Methven's group to threaten legal action. His admin crew (Rodwell et al) departed the Club on 15 Feb.
That contract extension was announced on 11 March when TS was courting other parties, still being threatened with legal action.
We can with 99% probability say that the decision to grant Holden a 3 year deal was Sandgaard's.
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I am only doing the odd away games - no more money to them.bobmunro said:BigDiddy said:
I am thick skinned, but a supporter since 1978.SouthLincsAddick said:
Bit of a low blow to question someone’s reasoning on being a supporter.ShootersHillGuru said:
You’re entitled to your opinion but the hyperbole and gaping holes in reality make your posts mostly laughable. We get your point. You’re not happy. Perhaps time to reflect on why you’re a Charlton supporter.BigDiddy said:
I wonder if Methven gets a cut of savings he makes ? Follow the money and we would find out why this lot are involved in Charlton.vff said:Dean Holden was known to Methven and Scott from last season. He was given a 3 year contract by Methven and pals only a few months ago. That was picked up by Holden, who foolishly believed that he would be backed in the transfer market. This did not happen. Cue disatisfaction, loss of hope from Holden and him losing the plot tactically, and having his weaknesses as a coach / manager exposed.The utter rubbish plan of Methven and the tall tale he told the investors is behind the current fiasco. That and the staggering incompetence and delusion of the plan. Cost cutting, playing and selling youth to reduce losses. The £1m to 2m losses plan, without any significant investment, in league one will take Charlton to League 2 and the National League. the bad things we were told about Methven and his pals is so far proving to be true.Ipswich had sustained and significant backing to get to the Championship. This is not what Charlton are getting currently. Why the hell did Methven bother - apart from the consultancy fees. What is the point ? The only way the plan works to sell the club for more in the championship. On Methven's cost cutting plan, even in a weakened league is just never going to happen.What manager or team is going to manage with the level of cost cutting by Methven ? Maybe at very best lower midtable to avoiding relegation. That is before any decent youngster is sold off. This is what Methven has brought Charlton to. Duchatelet will be happy with the diminishing of the football club. Closer to the day when there won't be a club at the Valley.
The club will have to sell millions of pounds of players each year just to stay afloat. In terms of increasing commercial income, that means ticket sales, online sales, sponsorships and so on. All those income streams will GO DOWN if the team is crap, so CM’s plan is utter madness.
I know that quite a few are pissed off by my constant rants about Charlie boy, but I honestly believe he is as toxic as Roland. Some say that we must keep personalities out of our comments, but how can we? We can only question and critique the actions of the people who own and control the club.
I agree that we really now at jeopardy of going out of existence.
Blind love is stupid - more fans need to make a stand/challenge what is going on, otherwise, there will be no club to support.
I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment, but what does making a stand/challenging what is going on look like?
Fundamentally, this is about money. Aside from protest [we have done enough of that over the years], our only option is to stay away.
Most will not agree with me, but each to their own0 -
Would like to think one window can totally change things, after that it becomes a touching up process.ShootersHillGuru said:
I’d want to see progression after every window but I’ve thought all along it would take three windows to sort out our squad.ElfsborgAddick said:
3 windows are allowed for our progress, I wonder why!TeeC said:Loving some of the regime ITKs trying blame TS for DH on the other forum. Very very funny0 -
Possibly, but I think that there may have been more going on in the background than meets the eye.PeanutsMolloy said:
He’s even less likely to take instructions from a party threatening legal action at that time.superclive98 said:
I know that Sandgaard was one for making strange decisions but is someone looking to offload the club likely to have committed it to a new 3 year contract for the manager.PeanutsMolloy said:
Highly improbable.superclive98 said:Just had a thought that's a bit left field.
Could it be a way of extracting money from the club? Holden was the Methven group's choice of manager and were probably instrumental in him being handed a 3 year deal, which will now have to be paid up.
As I said at the start, just a thought.
The original Methven group deal was called off by Sandgaard in the first week of February, prompting Methven's group to threaten legal action. His admin crew (Rodwell et al) departed the Club on 15 Feb.
That contract extension was announced on 11 March when TS was courting other parties, still being threatened with legal action.
We can with 99% probability say that the decision to grant Holden a 3 year deal was Sandgaard's.2 -
yeah ok, maybe not, could get a bit too lively at the Christmas Party.Mendonca In Asdas said:Can’t believe no one’s chucking Joey Barton’s hat into the ring?1 -
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What would be enough? Is headbutting someone in a tunnel not enough. The thing is, you could break down anything short of the worst criminal behaviours and say "is that it? What's the problem?"Braziliance said:
At least we will show a bit of fight then.Chunes said:
Pretty friendly... Karl Robinson called the police after Johnson headbutted Oxford's keeper in the tunnel at half-time.Braziliance said:Now Lee Johnson has been ruled out, why were we so against him, was this some sort of snowball effect going on?
Bloke seems pretty friendly, managed some decent sized clubs, decent win rate at most of the clubs managed and got a promotion on his CV. So what was the big deal, saw a lot of people tweeting they'll boycott or it will be the final straw etc, where does that kind of anger/hatred come from?
So jokes aside,
- Better than Sex comment
- Jayden Stockley accusation
- Allegedly headbutted a player (all I can find is a coach)
Is this enough reason to never turn up at the valley again or protest? Seems drastic to me.
Feel like this is a bit of a snowball effect as he would be a pretty qualified manager by all accounts.
We don't seem to be getting him regardless but I was just curious by the reaction, even I was thinking 'Christ no' but I wasn't even sure why
The guy stormed out of an interview just yesterday. He's an angry person with a grating personality, a giant chip on his shoulder, a history of violence and not much upside. Simple as that really.
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That’s if money is no object. Ipswich have thrown real money at it and they took about three windows to get it right. I’d suggest we’re starting from a lower base than them too.ElfsborgAddick said:
Would like to think one window can totally change things, after that it becomes a touching up process.ShootersHillGuru said:
I’d want to see progression after every window but I’ve thought all along it would take three windows to sort out our squad.ElfsborgAddick said:
3 windows are allowed for our progress, I wonder why!TeeC said:Loving some of the regime ITKs trying blame TS for DH on the other forum. Very very funny3 -
People stay away also because the product on the pitch tests even committed supporters patience. Once the the habit is broken it can be even more effort - particularly if there are lots of calls on time and your money. Football is supposed to be occassionally uplifting. Something Duchatelet didn't understand and the hedge funding owners need to. If the product sucks, no one buys it. Charlton need investment to get out of League One. Look at Ipswich, who put in a lot of investment and it took them 2 seasons.
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Do you see us paying compo for a manager? He's under contract till 2026, would he want to leave a side where he seems to be backed for a club where there's a lot of uncertainty?Mendonca In Asdas said:Can’t believe no one’s chucking Joey Barton’s hat into the ring?
I think in this league the only manager we may be able to snag is Mark Bonner. Cambridge won't be paying as much as Bristol Rovers, he's under contract until 2024 as far as I can see and reckon he would see it as an upgrade in terms of potential. Main issue with Bonner is his lack of experience, he's only ever managed Cambridge, but would still be more experienced than our last 3 managers so there's that.
I don't see us being able to secure any other manager in this league. Got an out of work manager written all over it I imagine
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I’d rather Powell than Bowyer.
Moore and Jones also worth a conversation if they would be interested.3 -
I'm sorry that i used pompous phraseology. Better to just have said "I don't agree" but you usually persuade me on a lot of things, so I wanted to express my surprise at your stance on this.PeanutsMolloy said:
I'm not unaware of the timing of his appointment or that Methven's management crew were installed until the deal appeared to fall through. Having re-read it, nothing I said seems to me to imply otherwise.PragueAddick said:
With great respect, Mr Peanuts, your first para. reads as if Methven and co. appointed him only in the close season and had no idea how -apparently - "tactically naive" he is. But that's not the case. Methven was in and around the club from December- when Holden and the others came in- through to February, and had a half-season to monitor results and take soundings. If he's really as bad as you paint him, you'd think Charlie- "I know football" - Methven would have spotted it, and have had a replacement lined up to take over as soon as the deal was done; so that at least said replacement could get some of his own choices in, and certainly influence the pre-season.PeanutsMolloy said:
I don't dispute he improved our performances after Garner-ball (it was a relatively obvious idea to "get the ball forward quicker", as DH described it) but, as I've said earlier, tactical naivety alone in the last 3 games (including first-rate impression of a stuffed dummy on the touchline at crucial moments and leaving clearly-knackered youngsters on for too long) and shockingly poor set-piece coaching in both boxes, is enough for me to be in no doubt it's right to replace DH now.PragueAddick said:
- Dean Holden was apparently recommended to TS by the current SMT. Effectively their choice, 8 months ago.
- He inherited a crap squad that was in chaos. Remember the Stockport cup humiliation?
- Admittedly the delay to the takeover completion didn't help to make a smooth well-planned pre-season.
- He has ONE fit senior striker. ONE!
- As of a week ago he had 10 -TEN - injured players.
- He has had to play two debutant 18 year olds in every game, for the simple reason that there were no better choices.
- He was told that he cannot bring more players in if he keeps picking the trash (Kirk, DJ , McG). Yes, I have a source for that. None of the trash was on the bench on Saturday.
So yeah, the "solution" to a poor start is to sack a manager you gave a three year contract to in March with a week to go of the window and irons supposedly in the fire, especially a striker.
As I've been saying for nigh on 30 years since I got involved in management recruitment: any idiot can sack someone. The difficult bit is getting in someone "better", especially if you keep being the same idiot each year or less.
"Someone challenge me on that?" © Charles Harry Finlayson Methven
He could have a fully-fit £30m squad and still potentially (probably IMO) not have the ability as a manager to get us promotion.
You're right he was SMT's choice but it's not unreasonable to assume they had to work within TS's budget and have his sign off. TS would have had to (and for a while did) live with the choice if the deal fell through.
So we shouldn't assume DH was ever their #1 choice or defines their budget for a new appointment.
We'll find out soon.
Given that, you haven't persuaded me at all that the timing of this isn't symptomatic of panic and breathtaking incompetence. Or possibly, as @sm above says, symptomatic of hedge-fund management mentality.
DH did well enough at for the remainder of last season though when looking like we might still have a run at the play offs, we still fell flat and finished poorly. Did you watch the game at Portman Road in April?
Persuading you of anything wasn't my purpose. All I was saying is that your assertion, that DH was effectively their choice, should be qualified by the fact that TS is hardly likely to have given them a blank cheque for the appointment. We don't know for sure but he was not necessarily ever their #1 choice.
Sure I endured last season's 6-0 at Ipswich. By macabre coincidence it came almost exactly year after I endured the 4-0 drubbing by the same team, and frankly I struggle to say the 6-0 was worse. In both cases I saw the performance of a club in chaos, under-resourced wherever you looked and with players just wanting the season to be over. You'll recall the 4-0 was probably the game that did for Jacko. Jacko of course moved on to AFCW. Midway through his first season they weren't doing great, and based on the social media noise I wondered if perhaps Jacko isn't quite up to it, and if it had after allbeen correct to let him go (I deplored it at the time). But an AFCW mate assured me that he'd been dealt a poor hand and thought he'll come good. Sure enough the AFCW board stuck with him. Now they are 5th, unbeaten and with Cov's league cup scalp too. Now, I won't over-labour this point but the make-up of AFCW's board is about as far as you can get from the gang Methven has stitched together - and the AFCW board do have pressure, that stadium has been relatively costly.
People here criticised Jacko's tactical naivety/rigidity. Apparently this season he has become more flexible. Perhaps from that we deduce that all but the most gifted rookie managers need time to learn from their mistakes and become more self-confident over time when it comes to formation and in-game tactical change. Holden and Jackson had the same amount of experience as the no1, buck-stops-here coach when each took up their respective eight month tenure at Charlton - zero. That brings me back to my original point. Charlie Methven knew that about Holden yet still recommended him. You might be right that he was not no1 choice (as you say, the next appointment will tell us), but Methven should still have moved heaven and earth to ensure that Holden at least had a half-decent fit squad with which to start the season. He manifestly failed to do so. And yet people come out with pap like "He doesn't know his best eleven" How could he when up to ten of the choices aren't fully available, and the second of the "2" in the 3-5-2 strategy does not currently exist? What a nightmare for a rookie manager with a new ownership of American hedgie types.
If the current board were all completely new, I might have been more 'persuaded' to wait and see whom they bring in before jumping to conclusions. But they are not. The key player, regardless of shareholding, is Charlie Methven. And if I recall correctly, you are no more confident in his abilities to direct a football club than I am.
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I don't think he recruited JRS, Scott came in inDec 22/ Jan 23, JRS in Aug/Sept 22 ?SouthLincsAddick said:We have an interim manager, so that would suggest we won’t have anyone in post for the next match at least. Do we think Scott had someone lined up already or is he going through his list of cheap yes men in his little black book?
I’ve got to say I’ve not been impressed with Scott so far, appointed a manager who only looked good last season because of Rak-Sakyi and recruited very ordinary players in the Jan window. For this window everyone we’ve signed doesn’t even look fit.
You're being very generous about the 3 he recruited in Jan. At best Hector is inconsistent, and not showing the leadership I would expect from a an experienced professional. The other 2, one was a disaster, the other , just not quite good enough.1 -
Poor show from the SMT.Redhenry said:If there isn’t a Manager and back room team ready to come in immediately the decision to clear out the whole team is idiotic IMO
Katrien would've interviewed 25 candidates by now and appointed a new manager already.21 -
It was certainly a ‘different’ performance from us. We let them keep the ball until the final third (is that what they call a low press?), which seemed to frustrate them, the longer they went without scoring. Despite the Wirkd Cup break they were still a Premier League playing League One ‘no hopers’, so I for one was delighted to see a change from our normal tactics. We actually had a plan, and although I wouldn’t call it a tactical masterclass, it was at least tactical, and the match was more memorable than most of the dross last season.MuttleyCAFC said:
Only, to be fair he wasn't really marking him out of the game. Brighton were rusty after the World Cup break and even then should have won two or three nil. They didn't and there is credit to be taken from it but it was a great, dogged, backs to the wall performance IMO rather than a tactcal masterclass.follett said:To give Hayes credit, one of the only games in recent seasons we can be proud of was when he took charge against De Zerbi's Brighton. Hayes had Richard Chin marking Mitoma out the game, genius1 -
When long contracts have been offered to players that don't cut the mustard, its going to take a lot longer to improve the squad ,and that millstone of wages is drag on recruiting newer (better) players. Unless you think we have been taken over by wealthy people like the Saudi's.ElfsborgAddick said:
Would like to think one window can totally change things, after that it becomes a touching up process.ShootersHillGuru said:
I’d want to see progression after every window but I’ve thought all along it would take three windows to sort out our squad.ElfsborgAddick said:
3 windows are allowed for our progress, I wonder why!TeeC said:Loving some of the regime ITKs trying blame TS for DH on the other forum. Very very funny0 -
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PeanutsMolloy said:
Baloney I'm afraid.vff said:Dean Holden was known to Methven and Scott from last season. He was given a 3 year contract by Methven and pals only a few months ago. That was picked up by Holden, who foolishly believed that he would be backed in the transfer market. This did not happen. Cue disatisfaction, loss of hope from Holden and him losing the plot tactically, and having his weaknesses as a coach / manager exposed.The utter rubbish plan of Methven and the tall tale he told the investors is behind the current fiasco. That and the staggering incompetence and delusion of the plan. Cost cutting, playing and selling youth to reduce losses. The £1m to 2m losses plan, without any significant investment, in league one will take Charlton to League 2 and the National League. the bad things we were told about Methven and his pals is so far proving to be true.Ipswich had sustained and significant backing to get to the Championship. This is not what Charlton are getting currently. Why the hell did Methven bother - apart from the consultancy fees. What is the point ? The only way the plan works to sell the club for more in the championship. On Methven's cost cutting plan, even in a weakened league is just never going to happen.What manager or team is going to manage with the level of cost cutting by Methven ? Maybe at very best lower midtable to avoiding relegation. That is before any decent youngster is sold off. This is what Methven has brought Charlton to. Duchatelet will be happy with the diminishing of the football club. Closer to the day when there won't be a club at the Valley.
As said above:
The original Methven group deal was called off by Sandgaard in the first week of February, prompting Methven's group to threaten legal action. His admin crew (Rodwell et al) departed the Club on 15 Feb.
That contract extension was announced on 11 March when TS was courting other parties, still being threatened with legal action.
We can with 99% probability say that the decision to grant Holden a 3 year deal was Sandgaard's alone.
I know people don't like Methven, with good reason. That includes me.
But FFS rather than rewrite history, let's just wait to see what the new ownership (95% not Methven and including some smart, wealthy people) do as regards the new permanent appointment.
It would be utterly bizarre if they made another cheapskate appointment.
Maybe they will do just that, but maybe they actually want to make some money on their investment.
They know that means promotion.
I think that's guesswork too with all due respect. Holden was known to Methven, Scott and Rodwell and I understand suggested initially by them to Sandgaard. Being that Holden had Methven+ blessing then, it is not at all sure that they wouldn't have approved the contract or that Sandgaard had not run it past them previously. I know things were a bit rocky as Methven's group were briefing against Sandgaard heavily around the the time, Sandgaard's mother passed away (nice people, eh), but its a guess that it was Sandgaard's doing, and not confirmed. Holden was well known and not a controversial decision to Methven+ considering they had brought his name to Sandgaard's attention in the first place.
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Has Holden put out a statement yet?0
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Not if one mouthpiece is to be believed.ShootersHillGuru said:
That’s if money is no object. Ipswich have thrown real money at it and they took about three windows to get it right. I’d suggest we’re starting from a lower base than them too.ElfsborgAddick said:
Would like to think one window can totally change things, after that it becomes a touching up process.ShootersHillGuru said:
I’d want to see progression after every window but I’ve thought all along it would take three windows to sort out our squad.ElfsborgAddick said:
3 windows are allowed for our progress, I wonder why!TeeC said:Loving some of the regime ITKs trying blame TS for DH on the other forum. Very very funny
But Powell sorted things out with the Jenkinson money in one summer.0 -
Imo you have to spend dough to get success.KingKinsella said:
When long contracts have been offered to players that don't cut the mustard, its going to take a lot longer to improve the squad ,and that millstone of wages is drag on recruiting newer (better) players. Unless you think we have been taken over by wealthy people like the Saudi's.ElfsborgAddick said:
Would like to think one window can totally change things, after that it becomes a touching up process.ShootersHillGuru said:
I’d want to see progression after every window but I’ve thought all along it would take three windows to sort out our squad.ElfsborgAddick said:
3 windows are allowed for our progress, I wonder why!TeeC said:Loving some of the regime ITKs trying blame TS for DH on the other forum. Very very funny
We need to get out of this division lively as we continue to lose.
Having said that, it is easy to spend other people's money.3 -
Holden sacked by text reported by Chicago Addick.Classy. There must have been a serious falling out between Holden and Methen / Rodwell / Scott. That was likely over transfer policy and funds available.3
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The Holden contract extension did smack of TS trying to buy some love0
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I might be wrong but I seem to remember Dean Holden saying more than once that he arrived hardly knowing anybody, both players and staff. Those he did know he framed as more brief encounters rather than deep down solid collaborative work.0
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To me it indicates:
- they do have alternates lined up (otherwise why jettison the coaching staff as well)- I also assume the contractural termination costs are relatively modest.- Further JP is there to keep things ticking over on the training pitch very short term
- Holden likely knew he was on borrowed time and maybe not happy with the transfer activity
And none of ITKs saw this coming.2 -
Methven was boasting in his BBC London Sport interview about how it was him that advised Sandgaard to hire Holden. Holden was the appointment of the current regime.PragueAddick said:
With great respect, Mr Peanuts, your first para. reads as if Methven and co. appointed him only in the close season and had no idea how -apparently - "tactically naive" he is. But that's not the case. Methven was in and around the club from December- when Holden and the others came in- through to February, and had a half-season to monitor results and take soundings. If he's really as bad as you paint him, you'd think Charlie- "I know football" - Methven would have spotted it, and have had a replacement lined up to take over as soon as the deal was done; so that at least said replacement could get some of his own choices in, and certainly influence the pre-season.PeanutsMolloy said:
I don't dispute he improved our performances after Garner-ball (it was a relatively obvious idea to "get the ball forward quicker", as DH described it) but, as I've said earlier, tactical naivety alone in the last 3 games (including first-rate impression of a stuffed dummy on the touchline at crucial moments and leaving clearly-knackered youngsters on for too long) and shockingly poor set-piece coaching in both boxes, is enough for me to be in no doubt it's right to replace DH now.PragueAddick said:
- Dean Holden was apparently recommended to TS by the current SMT. Effectively their choice, 8 months ago.
- He inherited a crap squad that was in chaos. Remember the Stockport cup humiliation?
- Admittedly the delay to the takeover completion didn't help to make a smooth well-planned pre-season.
- He has ONE fit senior striker. ONE!
- As of a week ago he had 10 -TEN - injured players.
- He has had to play two debutant 18 year olds in every game, for the simple reason that there were no better choices.
- He was told that he cannot bring more players in if he keeps picking the trash (Kirk, DJ , McG). Yes, I have a source for that. None of the trash was on the bench on Saturday.
So yeah, the "solution" to a poor start is to sack a manager you gave a three year contract to in March with a week to go of the window and irons supposedly in the fire, especially a striker.
As I've been saying for nigh on 30 years since I got involved in management recruitment: any idiot can sack someone. The difficult bit is getting in someone "better", especially if you keep being the same idiot each year or less.
"Someone challenge me on that?" © Charles Harry Finlayson Methven
He could have a fully-fit £30m squad and still potentially (probably IMO) not have the ability as a manager to get us promotion.
You're right he was SMT's choice but it's not unreasonable to assume they had to work within TS's budget and have his sign off. TS would have had to (and for a while did) live with the choice if the deal fell through.
So we shouldn't assume DH was ever their #1 choice or defines their budget for a new appointment.
We'll find out soon.
Given that, you haven't persuaded me at all that the timing of this isn't symptomatic of panic and breathtaking incompetence. Or possibly, as @sm above says, symptomatic of hedge-fund management mentality.19
